Did you hear about ITT shutting down abruptly, leaving thousands of students in a lurch?

[Ginevra]

I am appalled that this could even possibly happen!

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/itt-tech-shuts-down-displacing-thousands-of-students/

 

So basically, students who have already spent thousands of dollars on a degree/certification program are left without a school in which they can finish the degree and with earned credits that will not transfer elsewhere. I am totally astounded that this could even happen. Isn't this a breach of contract on the part of the school?

[Guest]

Well, not left completely without...I have heard schools which already have transfer agreements with ITT have made it known that ITT students are welcome. On our local news, Indiana Weslyan has been mentioned a few times.

 

Also, to be honest....I really think anyone who paid attention to the Corinthian College should have been thinking..."um, maybe we are next?"

 

And to go beyond that........people at University of Phoenix should be very worried, IMO. I think they are coming down next.

BUT students who do get their credits to transfer to another school cannot have federal loans discharged; students who have their federal loans discharged (if they had fed loans) cannot transfer their credits. (Which makes sense, yes; you can't just erase the loans used to earn viable credits, but it puts people soon graduating in a tough spot for sure.)

 

Apparently, there *were* rumors within the schools that it would close, but students were told not to worry, that they would be allowed to finish their degree program.

 

Good point about University of Pheonix. That's scary stuff.

[creekland]

Some of us are happy ITT is done for.  I feel for the students and staff, for sure, but their marketing to students was atrocious.  "Come follow your dream!  Don't worry about the cost!  We'll help you finance it!!!"  Of course, there was no mention of how much cost (even when students asked) and how little some of the jobs pay in the sales pitch until after they've reeled their "fish" in.  Some jobs pay better, but students follow the "light" and rarely compare options.  Many of the loans were private too - meaning high interest rates since students rarely have good credit scores to get lower rates.

 

It's good that other colleges are welcoming students and it's also good that ITT is finished IMO.  I never liked them from the first sales pitch I had to listen to (in school, of course).  I immediately asked guidance about it and was told we couldn't prohibit them from coming...

[FaithManor]

ITT had been an entirely fraudulent entity in Michigan so while we are sad for students caught in a lurch and for those losing jobs, the news has been met with applause.

[G5052]

They've always been very poorly thought of in my area. The colleges here do not accept their credits, and employers do not think well of them. I've had more than a few students at local community colleges who started at ITT and then switched once they realized how little they were getting for their $.

 

As much as I think the open door admissions policy at community colleges is a bit of a fraud, at least they require financial planning seminars if you receive a loan. There's one you have to attend before even applying, and then several afterwards. I know of several who went to the pre-application seminar and decided just to take a few credits at a time versus taking out a loan. The seminar helped them see what the impact would be on them personally of that type of debt.

 

Meanwhile University of Phoenix, Strayer, and such go on. I still remember the headlines when it was reported that Strayer's student default rate was higher than the graduation rate.

[FaithManor]

And the thing is that ITT was way more expensive than our local CC. So it was a bad deal on every level. People fell for it because it promised a quick path to a degree or professional licensing, but with costs high and standards in the toilet plus the scam of constantly not offering specific classes needed to graduate, combined with such lousy instruction that professional board passing rates were abysmal, it was nothing more than snake oil sales pitches plain and simple.

Edited September 10, 2016 by FaithManor

[TranquilMind]

I am appalled that this could even possibly happen!

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/itt-tech-shuts-down-displacing-thousands-of-students/

 

So basically, students who have already spent thousands of dollars on a degree/certification program are left without a school in which they can finish the degree and with earned credits that will not transfer elsewhere. I am totally astounded that this could even happen. Isn't this a breach of contract on the part of the school?

 

Sure, but you can't get blood out of a stone.  If it goes belly-up, then the assets - such as they may be - are distributed and the students will be far down on that list and likely receive nothing. 

 

It was a scam in the first place, preying on those who knew no better. 

Edited September 9, 2016 by TranquilMind

[goldberry]

When I was young, my first job was at a telemarketing center and it was very close to an ITT school.  There were so many people working there that had graduated from ITT.  I remember thinking, that doesn't sound like a very good deal!

 

I am in awe at the amount of people who will go to a school where credits will not transfer be accepted anywhere else.  Seriously, how does anyone know how things will play out?  Then all that work and money go for nothing.  It's really good that some other schools are accepting the credits.

[goldberry]

So are any of the "for-profit" schools actually decent?  Just curious.  I have a friend who did University of Phoenix and actually finished his degree.  He never got a job in his field though, and it cost crazy money.  He did feel like he still got an education.

[goldberry]

I think some have better track records than others.  But I would strongly discourage my kid from going to one. 

 

Oh, heck yeah, I wouldn't let my daughter go to one in a million years.

 

But ya know, after seeing the complicated process of getting into an actual college, trying to get financial aid, jumping through all the hoops and complications... it's easy to see why these for-profit places rake in so many kids who don't know any better.  They make it so easy and take care of everything.  

[FaithManor]

And not only is admssions easy with no AXT/SAT standards or any other for that matter, but being even more ridiculously funded by the student loan industry they are even more pushy than regular colleges, and tell students to come "sign for your scholarship disbursement" while sliding the paper forward with the title covered. Unsuspecting students have signed for loans when they thought they were getting merit money. Disgusting!

[regentrude]

But ya know, after seeing the complicated process of getting into an actual college, trying to get financial aid, jumping through all the hoops and complications... it's easy to see why these for-profit places rake in so many kids who don't know any better.  They make it so easy and take care of everything.  

 

It really is not complicated to get into an actual college.

For most community colleges, you walk in the door (or better: sign up online) without even an ACT score.

 

[G5052]

It really is not complicated to get into an actual college.

For most community colleges, you walk in the door (or better: sign up online) without even an ACT score.

 

Yes, unless you've been convicted of a violent crime recently and/or have SAT/ACT/placement scores in the bottom 20%, you're in.

 

I always laugh at the local ads for the $30,000/year private schools that say "100% college admission." Oh my. That really isn't a big deal.

Edited September 9, 2016 by G5052

[creekland]

But ya know, after seeing the complicated process of getting into an actual college,  

 

It's not that complicated getting into an actual college as long as one has a solid foundation from high school.  Some colleges are selective or very selective, but many are not.  

 

State colleges tend to be far more affordable than ITT or its cousins.  Many community colleges offer similar programs to ITT and are far less expensive.

[bettyandbob]

The for profit colleges take people who dropped out and let them take credit earning classes from the get go. That's part of the attraction.

 

My cc requires everyone to take placement tests. A student may have to take several math and English classes before he's permitted to take a class that counts towards a degree or certificate. 30+ years ago my friend's boyfriend (later dh) didn't go to cc because he didn't want to pay for the no credit classes he'd placed into. Back then I understood it meant he was prepared to do the work and I thought if I were in that situation I'd want to remedy that. However, he was a stubborn young who thought the process was unfair to him. He never did any college.

[G5052]

 

State colleges tend to be far more affordable than ITT or its cousins.  Many community colleges offer similar programs to ITT and are far less expensive.

 

I don't have current figures for ITT, but you can get a degree in IT with a web development concentration at the community college for about $10,000. Lower income students may be eligible for federal aid, and there are a lot of need-based scholarships for students with academic potential. 

 

The last time I looked into it, ITT was charging about double for the same type of program with fewer financial options and less credibility among employers.

[regentrude]

I've always hated the ITT ilk because of how they marketed themselves to military members. They s*ck them in and use up their GI benefits, and they have nothing to show for it. 

We have a cousin who went with U of Phoenix and she spent PILES of $$ for a worthless degree. Grrr...

 

Maybe this is a stupid question: but why do people fall for this when it is widely known that the for-profits are not a smart choice? It's not like this is a well kept secret or surprising news.

What makes people pick these schools over a regular community college?

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by regentrude

[vonfirmath]

Maybe this is a stupid question: but why do people fall for this when it is widely known that the for-profits are not a smart choice? It's not like this is a well kept secret or surprising news.

What makes people pick these schools over a regular community college?

 

 

When I considered University of Phoenix 1) I did not know it was not a smart choice 2) they offered lots of night classes I could take around my day job and 2) A degree I was interested in.

 

I ended up not doing it. But it had nothing to do with discovering the choice was bad. Life overtook me.

[bettyandbob]

Maybe this is a stupid question: but why do people fall for this when it is widely known that the for-profits are not a smart choice? It's not like this is a well kept secret or surprising news.

What makes people pick these schools over a regular community college?

 

My neighbor ended up graduating from a for profit. She married before she finished her degree. Every time she transferred and settled in a new school her dh had to move for work. So she had credits from three schools. Not all the credits counted at all schools even though the first one was BYU and the others were typical state universities. So, she decided to go with University of Phoenix because she could finish online and they took all credits in transfer. This was a bit over ten years ago. Now there are some nonprofit online options that did not exist for her then. She finished the degree. She's happy. She doesn't have debt. She feels a little more secure having a degree (she has a small business, getting hired is not an issue this time) so it worked for her. For her it was the best choice available at that time. In the last few years more options gave opened up and someone in the same position may have other choices.

 

But these places also take students who have significant less chance of being successful, like my friend's dh who couldn't pass the cc placement exams right out of high school. People like that can't actually do the work and drop out and default.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Diana P.

[Guest]

Maybe this is a stupid question: but why do people fall for this when it is widely known that the for-profits are not a smart choice? It's not like this is a well kept secret or surprising news.

What makes people pick these schools over a regular community college?

 

No, it is NOT widely known that these schools are not a good choice. If you are the first generation going to college, you look for "a" college. You lack the mentorship required to steer you away from these types of schools when NO ONE in your family has ever been to college and your social circle doesn't include anyone who has been to college. And if you were not a stellar high school student (or if you dropped out, or if you have a criminal record), you would be excited to find a place that would accept you. To many people, for-profit schools are no different in their minds from regular colleges, especially once you read their brochures which tout their accreditations and anecdotes of job placement and you see their awesome commercials on t.v.

[creekland]

Maybe this is a stupid question: but why do people fall for this when it is widely known that the for-profits are not a smart choice? It's not like this is a well kept secret or surprising news.

What makes people pick these schools over a regular community college?

 

 

What Kinsa said.  It's not widely known by the masses (those who don't do hiring, etc) and their sales pitches are very good.

 

If one has a job and is only prevented from moving higher up due to not having a degree, then places like U Phoenix can work.  I've seen that be successful and the schedule is able to be tweaked as needed.  I'm not sure how much more they cost than regular online colleges.

[SparklyUnicorn]

ITT advertises and their ads are intriguing.  I remember seeing one and looking the school up.  Then I saw the price.  No damn way would I pay that much!  I think in part they make it easy to enroll.  I went to a culinary school not associated with a college/uni.  It was not a for profit school, but it was very different than a CC or uni.  They do everything for you in terms of filling out the aid forms.  They just give you the bottom line numbers and have you sign.  There are absolutely no hoops.  Going to the CC for one damn course and not matriculating I was there for half the day just to get some stupid pin number.  Even paying out of pocket was a damn run around.  Some people just don't want to deal and they don't think about the mounds of debt they'll have later on.  They figure they'll make enough money to pay it back.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well and to add, schools like ITT make it seem like they offer very specialized programs where you are well trained for a specific job and will have this huge foot in the door to a company afterwords.  Unis and CCs are nothing like that.  You major in something and take a bunch of courses not related to the major you want. You have no clue what kind of job you'll get.  It just feels very vague.  I think that is what is appealing about a school like ITT.

 

 

[FaithManor]

It's not that complicated getting into an actual college as long as one has a solid foundation from high school. Some colleges are selective or very selective, but many are not.

 

State colleges tend to be far more affordable than ITT or its cousins. Many community colleges offer similar programs to ITT and are far less expensive.

Agreed.

 

ITT and others like them seem to take advantage of people who do not understand that CC is totally accessible at a reasonable cost or that the lower tier, lower standards regional schools - here SVSU comes to mind - are also pretty cheap and take almost everyone. People should do more research but for those without the high school background, out of school for a while, they seem to fall for advertising that makes it out as bizarrely expensive to go to a four year state university as well as indicating that the admission's standards for all of these institutions is on par with U of MI or UPENN.

 

Some of the ads here in Michigan have been ridiculous. And of course they really played off the high unemployment here during the housing debacle. Tons of older adults felt they needed to go back to school and get an AA, BS, or new professional certifications and the for profits made it sound like there was no way on earth to accomplish that as a non standard student except ITT or U Phoenix. They played it up as though they were the only programs in town that had night courses and flexible scheduling.

 

It is frustrating, especially in the internet age when information "from the horses mouth" is readily available, to see people easily fall prey. But these snake oil schools deserve a good legal spanking for what they have done.

Edited September 10, 2016 by FaithManor

[FaithManor]

Our son in law found that in terms of the Philly Art Institute, they had similar scheister qualities, down right unethical, and they lied like absolute dogs about their post graduation employment rates as well as the number of students who actually get an internship.

 

Given the insane student loan amounts and default rates, I would say that as the non profits fall, the unethical amongst the art institutes will be next. Some art institutes are good though. It isn't as wide spread as the for profits, but definitely some of them need to be taken down.

Edited September 10, 2016 by FaithManor

[Jen500]

I taught a class at one of these types of schools.  What weighed on me the hardest was that most of the students were just trying to improve their lives by going back to school. Many of them were in way over their heads in my class.  I had to water down the class horribly and I only failed the students who made no effort to show up or turn in work. Overall, very nice people. Most of them needed SO much remedial help and I felt so bad that I couldn't do more, given my measly adjunct pay. I wanted to ask a few of the better students why they didn't go to the local university or community college but that would have been a big NONO.

 

[creekland]

I taught a class at one of these types of schools.  What weighed on me the hardest was that most of the students were just trying to improve their lives by going back to school. Many of them were in way over their heads in my class.  I had to water down the class horribly and I only failed the students who made no effort to show up or turn in work. Overall, very nice people. Most of them needed SO much remedial help and I felt so bad that I couldn't do more, given my measly adjunct pay. I wanted to ask a few of the better students why they didn't go to the local university or community college but that would have been a big NONO.

 

This doesn't surprise me at all.  At school they do a bit of their marketing to our low level kids - where the classes are taught at an 8th grade level or so (for high school).  These are the students who are likely to fail our state testing - even when the content of the courses is up to snuff with what the state wants.  It's a no-win situation at school, because even with increasing the content we can't "make" the kids learn more.  Many are either not capable or have no desire (or both).

 

Then these schools step in with their marketing... "Don't worry about the cost.  You can get loans!"

 

Some certificate programs work well for these kids.  My nephew (different state) who couldn't graduate from high school due to a learning disability (lower IQ too) did just fine in a diesel mechanics class and can work on cars/trucks, etc - not as an owner, but as an employee.  Fortunately, he went to a public program to get his certification as it was MUCH less costly.  Having done a bit of it in high school, that part cost him nothing.  The whole thing might have cost him nothing actually.  He was interning for the last bit.  I don't think they pay for that.  I think they just work for low wages while learning on the job.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The local CC has a whole page on their website welcoming ITT students.  They say they will give generous transfer credits and they listed their programs that are very similar to what ITT tends to offer.  I thought that was cool. 

[Grantmom]

This actually made me think a lot about choosing a college in general, even a not for profit college, that you really see having endurance for the long haul. Even not for profit colleges are not immune to this, as we saw with Sweet Briar last year.

[SparklyUnicorn]

This actually made me think a lot about choosing a college in general, even a not for profit college, that you really see having endurance for the long haul. Even not for profit colleges are not immune to this, as we saw with Sweet Briar last year.

 

They've been around since 1969.  So really you can't always be sure of this stuff.

[Reefgazer]

I had a student who took his nursing school pre-requisites at our college and then wanted to go get a nursing degree.  ITT offered him a very quick path to that degree.  Even when I cautioned him to think twice about it because his degree would be worthless if he wanted to upgrade to a BSN (the credits wouldn't transfer to a 4 year school and ITT had no BSN option), he still went the ITT route because it was quick.  Quick and dirty, with loans that cover the immediate cost that is facing the student, are irresistible for some. It's like a quick hit of crack (or how I imagine a quick hit of crack would be).  :)

Maybe this is a stupid question: but why do people fall for this when it is widely known that the for-profits are not a smart choice? It's not like this is a well kept secret or surprising news.

What makes people pick these schools over a regular community college?
 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I had a student who took his nursing school pre-requisites at our college and then wanted to go get a nursing degree.  ITT offered him a very quick path to that degree.  Even when I cautioned him to think twice about it because his degree would be worthless if he wanted to upgrade to a BSN (the credits wouldn't transfer to a 4 year school and ITT had no BSN option), he still went the ITT route because it was quick.  Quick and dirty, with loans that cover the immediate cost that is facing the student, are irresistible for some. It's like a quick hit of crack (or how I imagine a quick hit of crack would be).  :)

 

It's kind of understandable.  Sometimes people are just sick of being broke and they need to get a good paying job.  It's hard to think...take your time and be broke a little longer, but have this cost less in the end verses be done quick and be making good money quick.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I bet you he could find a BSN program out there that would take his ITT stuff.  There are nursing programs out there that don't grant you a degree.  They just get you qualified to take the exams.  Those people do qualify to get into some of those programs. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[MarkT]

This actually made me think a lot about choosing a college in general, even a not for profit college, that you really see having endurance for the long haul. Even not for profit colleges are not immune to this, as we saw with Sweet Briar last year.

 

Sweet Briar has not closed yet  - since it wasn't a "business"  entity just to unwind when the profits dried up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_Briar_College

[Grantmom]

Yes, I know it didn't close, but it almost did, and I think it has impacted its desirability.  Personally, I wouldn't be encouraging my child to apply there, given the recent history.  I was just giving a recent example. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes, I know it didn't close, but it almost did, and I think it has impacted its desirability. Personally, I wouldn't be encouraging my child to apply there, given the recent history. I was just giving a recent example.

Sweetbriar is a case of a board making decisions despite having millions on hand. Some of those board members were being investigated for criminal fraud.

 

In the period when closure was expected there was a tremendous effort to place students at other schools and help them graduate on time. The attitude Sweetbriar had towards current and new students is quite different from an ITT mentality.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Sebastian (a lady)

[Grantmom]

Sweetbriar is a case of a board making decisions despite having millions on hand. Some of those board members were being investigated for criminal fraud.

 

In the period when closure was expected there was a tremendous effort to place students at other schools and help them graduate on time. The attitude Sweetbriar had towards current and new students is quite different from an ITT mentality.

 

 

Just to clarify, I wasn't in any way saying that ITT closing down was the same thing as what happened with Sweet Briar.  I was simply saying that seeing this story made me think about choosing a school wisely, one that you know will have longevity and whose reputation will be maintained, and that even not for profit schools are not immune to economic pressures or changing reputations or declining academics.

[FaithManor]

Sweetbriar had very unique problems. Much of what was left in their endowment was designated gifts. By IRS law, designated money cannot be used fpr any other purpose than prescribed ny the donor. If the donor is willing to change the designation, there is a legal process for that. Most of the endowment was not given for operational expenses, but for the kinds of things that feed the egos of the donors ny getting their name on a building or something.

 

It took actions by the court to allow that money to be used to keep the school open. While their may be some wrongdoing on the part of the board, mostly they were between a rock and a hard place with designated money.

 

BTDT at a church where DH was treasurer. Big donor gave a lot of money to a beautification project that would include family plaque but when an emergency came up for a missionary needing to get back to the states quickly he asked the family if they were willing to divert a portion of it to the emergency. They were not inclined, and it would have been illegal for him to do otherwise.

 

ITT on the other hand.....total snake oil job.

 

I completely agree that one should consider the potential longevity of your program before committing to it. If the university advertises program X and it only has three people in it and last year they cut half the staff and faculty in that major, then buyer beware.

[JulieA97]

I worked at a for-profit trade school and it was nothing like ITT, Devry, U of Phoenix, etc. It was a tiny school with one specialized program. The local community college had a program in the same field but did not have the connections my school did nor the fantastic reputation. The owners had extensive experience in the field and knew everyone. The students all completed interships as part of the program and they have an excellent employment rate. The jobs in the field don't pay much, but they are honest about the average wage and the cost of the program is not much more than the local CC. I am in financial aid and I for SURE did not pressure anyone into loans or anything else. I had them sit with me as I went over the entrance counseling (and exit counseling) for federal loans and made sure they understood it all. We did not offer private loans. I did class presentations on financial literacy.

 

Not all for-profit schools are the same. Just as all CC schools are not the same (I worked in financial aid at one and woah. You would not believe some of the stories I have...).

 

It is awful that students from ITT are now stuck with high loan amounts and no degree or credits. Despicable. Everyone should do their due diligence when considering any school.

[creekland]

Everyone should do their due diligence when considering any school.

 

:iagree:   It's why I always recommend checking with employers (or grad school admission or whatever is the next step).  They often know which schools they like due to previous grads they've come across and/or reputation within the field.    

[MarkT]

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Saving-Money/2016/0803/Five-things-to-know-before-attending-a-for-profit-college

 

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/9485-for-profit-education-milking-students-and-the-taxpayers-for-corporate-profits

Edited September 18, 2016 by MarkT

[goldberry]

Fallout continues

 

Accreditor loses authority - "Within 18 months, all these colleges have to find a new accreditor, or the students lose their federal financial aid,"

 

The Federal Government Takes Action Against a For-Profit College Accreditor

 

That will be a good thing in the long run.  Sorry for the students now though.

[MerryAtHope]

Fallout continues

 

Accreditor loses authority - "Within 18 months, all these colleges have to find a new accreditor, or the students lose their federal financial aid,"

 

The Federal Government Takes Action Against a For-Profit College Accreditor

 

"As we have also reported, two-thirds of ACICS commissioners — who make the ultimate decisions about accreditation for schools — were executives at for-profit colleges. Many of the commissioners worked at colleges that were under investigation."

 

Gee, hard to be unbiased then...no wonder ACICS is suspect.

 

Again, sad for the students.