S/O Obedience: If you value obedience in children, what are examples of disobedience?

[Upennmama]

I tell my kid to clean up the legos. I return in 10 minutes and he's still playing.

I tell my daughter who is fighting with her sister over a toy to give it back. She refuses, yelling that it's not fair.

I tell DD to come home by 10. She returns at 10:15.

[ktgrok]

The difference may be in our perspectives.  For starters, there is no Plan A at our house.  And I don't view any job in our family as someone's job.  No one owes us a certain amount of work, and no one is scot-free when their assigned task is completed.  Stuff needs done and stuff gets done.  No responsibilities, no schedules, no extending grace.  There is no need to extend grace because no one is ever failing, or needing reminded, or whatever.

 

You can't obey an order that was never given.  Doing something as requested isn't obedience, unless it is obedience across the board.  Like I said earlier, if I ask my dh to do something, and he does it, it isn't obedience.  If I ask my child to do something, and they do it, it isn't obedience.  They just did it, like he would just do it.  Just because we are parent/child, it does not follow they are doing it to obey me.

 

It is a completely different way of thinking.  

 

I think I was trying to debate or discuss if it was an entirely different way of acting, rather than thinking. If some of those saying they don't have an obedience model (not you per se) actually have things play out differently than those that say they do. A few people have admitted, it may not look different at all. People on this thread have said that although  they would not say they follow an obedience model (whatever that means...whole other topic) they do have rules, they do require school work to be done, etc etc. So although it doesn't look the same in your house perhaps, others have said it might. 

 

People have also said "oh, we don't use obedience, we use things like are outlined in The Explosive Child. And I said, huh, I also do things that way on a regular basis, and yet, I said I do think there is obedience in my home. One person asks the kid to empty the dishwasher, he says okay, and she calls it being obedient. Another says the same things, same outcome, and she doesn't call it obedience. Trying to say, where does that line fall then, is interesting. 

[Joules]

 One person asks the kid to empty the dishwasher, he says okay, and she calls it being obedient. Another says the same things, same outcome, and she doesn't call it obedience. Trying to say, where does that line fall then, is interesting. 

 

I think the difference for me is that asking to unload the dishwasher is just a request.  It doesn't have to be obeyed.  If ds has time and is in a place to help out, he usually will, but it's also perfectly fine if he says no.  Since he is free to say no, calling it disobedience if he doesn't do it is weird, and thus calling it obedience when he does help doesn't seem to fit either.

[ktgrok]

Honestly, it sounds like you are blessed with kids that are the type that like to please their family, like to be part of a team, and are naturally cooperative. I think to expect that most others could have children that just help out, with no requirement whatsoever to do so, is probably unlikely. I was that naturally compliant, go with the flow, do whatever my parents asked because I wanted to help out, kind of kid. Like I said, i was punished twice in my life. I just naturally wanted to do what worked best for my family. After I had kids I realized I was not typical, or at least not in my family. None of my kids are quite like that, although some are more than others. 

 

My personal bet is that kids like me are very sensitive and quick to pick up on small, non verbal cues. I could tell when people were happy, sad, disappointed, pleased, etc. So a simple smile or crinkle of the eyes showing pleasure in me helping without being asked was a reward, just like to another child a word of praise would be, or to another child a sticker on a chart. Same with "punishment". Just someone in my family being put out, or their life harder, was enough of an aversive to make me want to help out. It's not active punishment, but it worked the same on me as yelling might on another child. 

 

Just a thought. (I've been reading a lot about operant conditioning lately, and inadvertent reinforcement)

[Joules]

 

 

People have also said "oh, we don't use obedience, we use things like are outlined in The Explosive Child. And I said, huh, I also do things that way on a regular basis, and yet, I said I do think there is obedience in my home.

 

I did read The Explosive Child when mine was 3.  Dh and I often use the Basket A/Basket B terminology when dealing with issues in our own life, but with parenting, I think somehow most of life just became Basket C...all of those things that I thought I should think were terribly important just weren't.  Our home may not be the cleanest or most organized place, but we actually get by just fine.  

 

I've often wondered if it would work with more kids or if it's successful because I just have one or just because of the personalities of the three of us.

[Joules]

Honestly, it sounds like you are blessed with kids that are the type that like to please their family, like to be part of a team, and are naturally cooperative.

 

Interesting that this is how I would describe mine now, but I read The Explosive Child for a reason.  It was once I completely dissolved the power dynamic that our family became what it is now.  Of course, that is just what turned out to be right for us, I can't imagine that it is the answer for everyone.

[ktgrok]

 

I've often wondered if it would work with more kids or if it's successful because I just have one or just because of the personalities of the three of us.

 

Probably all of that. I have some kids that can understand that hey, the house is nicer, and it is more fun to play in, if it is picked up a bit. And that understand that food on the floor = ants. They may not always spontaneously pick up, but they will help out, and understand why. I have another child that will happily sit surrounded by molding food and ants. I am not exaggerating, by the way. He has more than once had his desk covered in dishes that were covered in rotting food, a dozen cups in various stages of mold growth, a smell that could knock you over, and ants swarming on all of it. And not cared one whit. If I don't set rules, then my house becomes a trash pit. When I can smell it when I walk by, that's a problem. He won't clean it for any reason other than because I make him. 

 

So yes, a relaxed attitude works with some. Not with others. 

[Guest]

Le sigh.

 

You don't have any basis whatsoever for repeatedly claiming that I or anyone else are just calling the rose by any other name.

 

I find your remarks and thinly veiled insistence you must know other people's lives better than themselves to be downright rude. Again, I am not telling anyone who has success with a method other than mine that their method is just mine by a different name.

 

Why is it so hard to accept that obedience is not a universally held value among other wise decent parents? Why can't you accept that there are people who are in fact just doing it differently?

Because when you describe what you do it looks and functions pretty much exactly like what a lot of the families who claim they do enforce basic habits and obedience do. So someone is lying, or we are actually doing very similar things and framing the language however we are personally comfortable - and that varies wildly based on experience and peer group.

[Guest]

The difference may be in our perspectives. For starters, there is no Plan A at our house. And I don't view any job in our family as someone's job. No one owes us a certain amount of work, and no one is scot-free when their assigned task is completed. Stuff needs done and stuff gets done. No responsibilities, no schedules, no extending grace. There is no need to extend grace because no one is ever failing, or needing reminded, or whatever.

 

You can't obey an order that was never given. Doing something as requested isn't obedience, unless it is obedience across the board. Like I said earlier, if I ask my dh to do something, and he does it, it isn't obedience. If I ask my child to do something, and they do it, it isn't obedience. They just did it, like he would just do it. Just because we are parent/child, it does not follow they are doing it to obey me.

 

It is a completely different way of thinking.

If you're asking them to do it and they do it, that's what our families do too. That's the sticky wicket.

 

I'll grant that no assigned tasks, responsibilities, or consistent action being taken by designated family members is not what I'm hearing most people talk about or refer to. It's very communist, and I mean that in communal-co op, not in any political way.

 

Our family operates smoothly because of structure and function for each individual, a role they fill. That makes harmony here, the working together to achieve a working family unit that gets the basics done each day. There is some flexibility, but mom and dad have consistent responsibilities and tasks, and so do children at varying ages and stages. These change as the kids mature, schedules adjust, etc, but we communicate really clearly on what needs to be done and when because that works best for us - not just leaving things un-done and hoping someone feels compelled enough or desperate enough to finally do it.

 

Neither my husband or I can do and feel our best without order, cleanliness, and structure. But we get there by teaching and training and self discipline a lot more than any sort of external consequences or discipline, once they're about grade school age. We focus on working together for the family and everyone doing their part, and we cannot operate without the critical contribution of each member in their role. Everyone is important, everyone has value. The relationship component is intrinsic in working together to accomplish the daily needs of the family, but if those aren't structured and assigned we are constantly behind, stressed, or function breaks down and we cannot do basics like get dinner on the table or take showers.

 

I can accept that not everyone needs a clean kitchen and no laundry piles - but I'd say 95% of the families I've ever met have a daily routine and structure by which members get things done on a consistent fashion. Getting there and staying there involves some reminding, teaching, what have you. That point right there is what a lot of this discussion seems to be hung up on. We call it obedience/diligence/whatever because we are immersed in a Christian context and with friends who are the same - that's just the lingo. But the action of raising children into responsive, self-disciplined, educated, compassionate, capable adults has a lot more crossover than differences among most families.

 

I'll make an exception for anything truly opt-in communal. That's definitely outside this basic structure and paradigm.

[eternalsummer]

If you're asking them to do it and they do it, that's what our families do too. That's the sticky wicket.

 

 

 

 

Again, I think what she and others are saying is that the difference is in expectation and power dynamic: if you ask them to do it and they don't do it, they have disobeyed and you will punish them (or somehow force them to do it).  If she asks them to do it and they don't do it, she does not punish them or force them to do it.

 

And the kids know that there is a difference; it is an overt difference, not a covert one.  

 

I don't say that it is better or worse one way or another; we are not formal punishers or formal rewarders (no star charts, no time out, no allowance, etc.), but I am kind of bossy and acknowledge that there is a natural power differential between me and the kids, so I do kind of order them around when I am feeling anxious.  Generally they realize that I am feeling anxious at the time and a good way to alleviate my anxiety is to do what I say, which largely involves cleaning.  Sometimes they don't do it, and I do yelling, and they do yelling, and someone stomps off in a huff, and there is some level of recrimination, and then the tension dissolves and everyone is friends again and either I do the cleaning or we all do, whatever works at the time.

 

I am not what you would call an organized parent :)

[ktgrok]

Again, I think what she and others are saying is that the difference is in expectation and power dynamic: if you ask them to do it and they don't do it, they have disobeyed and you will punish them (or somehow force them to do it).  If she asks them to do it and they don't do it, she does not punish them or force them to do it.

 

 

 

Agreed. Although I do have to wonder what would happen in such a family if one of the kids just never did anything that was asked of them. Would that be okay? I think until you know the answer to that, it's hard to say that you wouldn't make them. Because if they are helping out without being made to well yeah, of course you don't have to make them. 

 

I don't think that last sentence even made sense. Oh well. 

[LucyStoner]

Because when you describe what you do it looks and functions pretty much exactly like what a lot of the families who claim they do enforce basic habits and obedience do. So someone is lying, or we are actually doing very similar things and framing the language however we are personally comfortable - and that varies wildly based on experience and peer group.

 

This is double speak propaganda to me.  "The chocolate rations have increased!"

 

I described not minding if, when reminded to do so, my younger son doesn't get ready for soccer or my older son doesn't get his spelling books.  Tell me, does that ACTUALLY "look and function pretty much exactly like" it would with a mother who values obedience and feels it is her due?  

 

What I am seeing many posters who identify as valuing obedience describe with their own kids sounds very little like what takes place here.  

 

If it is the same, please tell me specifically how.  

 

If one son hits another, I seriously question that it is handled the same way here as it is at your home.  Same for not cleaning up one's space, being unhappy about what is served for dinner, breaking something, skiving off of an assignment etc.  

 

That other people have basic habits and a reasonably ordered home and homeschool is not evidence that they value obedience.  They might.  They might not.  

Edited September 1, 2016 by LucyStoner

[maize]

Agreed. Although I do have to wonder what would happen in such a family if one of the kids just never did anything that was asked of them. Would that be okay? I think until you know the answer to that, it's hard to say that you wouldn't make them. Because if they are helping out without being made to well yeah, of course you don't have to make them.

 

I don't think that last sentence even made sense. Oh well.

If the kid never does anything they are asked, "making them" is likely to fail.

 

A kid who is not motivated to meet expectations may well be equally unmotivated by consequences.

 

I've been intimately aquainted with a child who, despite my mother's best efforts, could not be "made" to do things.

[8circles]

I think I was trying to debate or discuss if it was an entirely different way of acting, rather than thinking. If some of those saying they don't have an obedience model (not you per se) actually have things play out differently than those that say they do. A few people have admitted, it may not look different at all. People on this thread have said that although  they would not say they follow an obedience model (whatever that means...whole other topic) they do have rules, they do require school work to be done, etc etc. So although it doesn't look the same in your house perhaps, others have said it might. 

 

People have also said "oh, we don't use obedience, we use things like are outlined in The Explosive Child. And I said, huh, I also do things that way on a regular basis, and yet, I said I do think there is obedience in my home. One person asks the kid to empty the dishwasher, he says okay, and she calls it being obedient. Another says the same things, same outcome, and she doesn't call it obedience. Trying to say, where does that line fall then, is interesting. 

 

I think what you're missing is the flow of conversation surrounding some of those statements.

 

I could go back and quote each pro-obedience post that described how things went in their homes and say specifically what's different - some posts are already like that - but I don't think people would appreciate that.  

 

But when someone posts about having to order their children around multiple times a day for the same things because they are disobedient... then I post what would happen in those situations in my house instead of ordering - then the ordering-parent says "that's what I do, too" - I guess that specific instance may look the same.  But I don't order my kids around, so it is different, no matter what kind of commonality can be found afterward.  But I don't know how else to show that I respect the ordering parent's point of view except to say, yeah , ok, this particular example might look the same. In light of that, this post feels like a slap in the face.

[LucyStoner]

Agreed. Although I do have to wonder what would happen in such a family if one of the kids just never did anything that was asked of them. Would that be okay? I think until you know the answer to that, it's hard to say that you wouldn't make them. Because if they are helping out without being made to well yeah, of course you don't have to make them. 

 

I don't think that last sentence even made sense. Oh well. 

 

I just reject the idea that is possible to make some kids do anything that they don't on some level either want or agree to do. 

 

There was no making me go to school when I was in junior high (and left school of my own will for 2 years).  There was no making me eat stuff I didn't want to eat or wear stuff I didn't want to wear.  

 

My parents only ace card was that I mostly saw what they wanted as being in my best interest or not worth fighting over.  I wasn't explosive or tantrum prone- I was just an unmovable, stubborn rock.  The child equivalent of a mountain.  

 

Most of the time I was thought of and perceived as a "good kid" because I liked studying and liked the things that adults like kids to like.   I wasn't interested in or inclined towards anything especially risky.  But my parents truly could not "make" me do anything.  

[ktgrok]

I think what you're missing is the flow of conversation surrounding some of those statements.

 

I could go back and quote each pro-obedience post that described how things went in their homes and say specifically what's different - some posts are already like that - but I don't think people would appreciate that.  

 

But when someone posts about having to order their children around multiple times a day for the same things because they are disobedient... then I post what would happen in those situations in my house instead of ordering - then the ordering-parent says "that's what I do, too" - I guess that specific instance may look the same.  But I don't order my kids around, so it is different, no matter what kind of commonality can be found afterward.  But I don't know how else to show that I respect the ordering parent's point of view except to say, yeah , ok, this particular example might look the same. In light of that, this post feels like a slap in the face.

 

I was actually referring to a few other posters, not you, when I was talking about them saying okay, there are rules, we do require them to do this that and the other thing. Might have been Quill maybe? Not sure, but it wasn't you. 

 

But yes, I think it does look a lot alike, depending on the kids and their personality. An easy going people pleasing kid, I'd say "hey, honey, you're hurting mom's ears when you yell. Can you be quieter please?" With the less people pleasing one, it would have to be "Listen, you're hurting me. I've asked you to stop, and you are still loud. So STOP. Or you will need to go in your room with the door closed so that I don't have to hear it."  With the oldest, it would have looked different too, I'm sure, but I don't remember that phase. My parenting model is the same with all the  kids, I'm still me. It just looks very different due to personalities. So yeah, I do wonder if some of the looking different is because of the kids, not the parents. 

 

But I believe you, that yo and a few others do not have rules, do not have requirements, and things run just fine. 

[8circles]

Here's a sampling of what *isn't* the same as how things work in my home.  I couldn't even get through the first page, it was too tedious.

 

Well, yes, it would be disobedience. Did you give him a five-minute warning? Because it's easy to lose track of time; we want to help our children obey, rather than catch them at being disobedience, so a warning would have been a good thing. And then at 31 minutes, you walk over to the computer and turn it off, because (1) children should know they can trust us to do what we say; (2) when we tell our children to do/not do something, there should be a consequence for not obeying--not necessarily a big deal, but something; and (3) if we don't follow through, we end up nagging and feeling frustrated (and our children are unhappy, too).

No - this isn't how things work in our home.  I wouldn't label it "disobedience" nor would I shut off the computer at 31 minutes.  That would be disrespectful IMO and children learn respect by being respected.

 

 I didn't read much of the other thread.   But, to answer the question -

 

If I tell a child to be off the computer in x minutes, and I give a warning, and the child has a way to tell how much time has gone by, but they still are on the computer when x minutes are up, yes, that is disobedience.  It doesn't even matter the reason - whether we have to go somewhere or not, whether I need to use the computer, etc.  That is disobedience and should have consequences.  I would not do exactly as Ellie would - just turn off the computer - but there would be consequences.

 

Here is another: my daughter clutters the bathroom counter with makeup and stuff.  She shares that bathroom with her brother and it is also the guest bathroom.  I want the clutter straightened up daily.  She doesn't always do it.  That is disobedience.  The consequence is that I put her stuff in a bag and put it on her bed.  That's not much of a consequence - she does not lose the use of the stuff - but it's an inconvenience to her, just as her leaving the counter cluttered is an inconvenience to me (as I don't want to have to worry about that bathroom being ready for use by a random person).

 

(We don't get random visitors very often, like almost never, but... if my neighbor stops by and needs to use the bathroom, I want her to be able to find the soap among the other stuff  Plus, nothing wrong with a neat bathroom in general.)

No, this would absolutely not happen in my home.  I'm also responding to the follow-up to this with more detail but I'm not going back to find it & quote.

 

Besides the toddler (who I don't consider disobedient, but rather "in training") I have one kid who is regularly disobedient.  Some examples, 

 

(Expectations for behavior are VERY clearly explained ahead of time)

 

Me: "Please come to the table for math"

Kid: "Just a minute" (and continues playing with her toys)  (This is not allowed.  "Just a minute" to go potty is a perfectly acceptable response, but otherwise, I expect promptness)

 

Me: It's time to go in and clean up for dinner.  

Kid: *whine* "But I can stay outside while you go in But why can't we stay just ten minutes longer But what if you called from the window when you were really ready for dinner But why do we need to clean up But..."

Kid has managed to control herself so that if I say, "We are not arguing about this" she can stop herself from continuing.  But I can't seem to stop that initial stream of argument.  It drives me nuts.  

 

Luckily, I do not have particularly disobedient kids.  My kids don't throw things or break things or direct defy in any sort of obnoxious way.  

No, this is not considered disobedience in my home.  "just a minute" is perfectly acceptable, for almost any reason.  I don't find it inappropriate for a child to ask for more time to play outside.

 

Well, I can think of some fairly easily.  My eldest tends to be lazy, especially about things like room cleaning.  She often tells me she has done it when she hasn't, or that she cleaned under her bed when she didn't.  Yesterday she had told me she had done some cleaning - which was so I could help her reorganize her closet which she asked me to do.  When I went in to start, I fouund that it was worse than I had even imagined, including a clothing drawer almost entirely filled with garbage and only a few clothes pushed in on top. 

 

Her punishment was that I cleaned it for her, havingg come to the conclusion that she was not capable of caring for all that stuff.

 

My middle dd is stubborn and will outright refuse to do things like turn off the tv, or she will push or sucker-punch her siblings when she gets angry.  She has run and hidden when she did not want to leave a fun place.

 

My son and his friend I babysit have stolen the sugar from the cupboard and eaten it, or gone to play in the basement where they are not allowed to be.

 

 

I don't tend to be a hard-ass about these things unless they are very deliberate and egregious, and I try and set them up for success.  But I would say that in many ways, that is less successful as a strategy than my husbands approach, which is much more universally expecting things to be done promptly and without too much complaining.  And I think that is really from the kids POV too - with me there is probably a lot more stress in some ways and time spent trying to get out of things, and then finally I get really angry.  With him, expectations are clear, and most of the time they meet them, and no one wastes much time on it.

These examples would not be considered disobedience but we would certainly try to find solutions, and not have consequences.

 

So, what do you do when the goals don't match?   For example, when I spoke of my daughter and cleaning the bathroom.  She does not share my goal of having a clean bathroom.   What would you do?  The only alternative I can think of is:  it's my goal to have a clean bathroom, not hers, so I am the one who should clean it, and leave her out of it altogether.  I guess that would make the home more harmonious.  

 

I'm a little stunned to learn about such harmonious homes where everyone works so well together that there are never any conflicts.  I don't mean that in a snarky way.  My husband and I also treat our children with respect are not particularly authoritarian, but we do need all the people to help out in the house we share, whether they want to or not.   

Yes, the alternative that you thought of would be a valid solution here.  At our house, there is no requirement to help out.  For lots & lots of potential reasons.

 

If it helps, I'm stunned too. I've had to give my children "orders" for them to "obey" a couple dozen times today I think. Many of which were the same thing over and over. "Stop running in the store" "Stop touching your brother" "No roughhousing in the house" "Don't drag your little brother around by his feet". 

 

Call it what you will, but when I say stop, they need to stop. Or more than likely someone will get hurt. Again. 

 

Just this evening I said "Stay in the other room. The floors in here are wet and I don't want you to slip and fall. Sit down, and I will bring you your food." He didn't obey. He walked on the wet floor, slipped, and hurt himself. 

 

I told them it was time to get ready for bed. That if they were quick they could watch an episode of Voltron with daddy before bed, but they needed to go get ready. They did, and they got to watch the show. They were obedient. 

 

So yeah, I like some obedience. It makes the house run well and people don't get hurt. I don't know if other people just don't tell their kids to stop roughhousing, or running in the store, or to get ready for bed, or if they are calling it something other than obedience when the kids do it. 

No, I don't order my children to do these kinds of things.  I remind them of things that might happen if they do but it isn't disobedience if they don't.  I would be proactive in avoid these situations altogether which is what I described in a prior post.  Children get hurt.  That is pretty unavoidable 

 

I'm flabbergasted that people keep saying that we are all doing the same things.  We aren't.  There are lots & lots of posts which detail how.

[8circles]

 

But yes, I think it does look a lot alike, depending on the kids and their personality. An easy going people pleasing kid, I'd say "hey, honey, you're hurting mom's ears when you yell. Can you be quieter please?" With the less people pleasing one, it would have to be "Listen, you're hurting me. I've asked you to stop, and you are still loud. So STOP. Or you will need to go in your room with the door closed so that I don't have to hear it."  With the oldest, it would have looked different too, I'm sure, but I don't remember that phase. My parenting model is the same with all the  kids, I'm still me. It just looks very different due to personalities. So yeah, I do wonder if some of the looking different is because of the kids, not the parents. 

 

But I believe you, that yo and a few others do not have rules, do not have requirements, and things run just fine. 

 

I don't have all people-pleasing kids, very very far from it.  My home is not always harmonious but is much moreso since I stopped expecting obedience.  I would not say the bold to my kids.

 

ETA:  I stand corrected.  I would say the bold to my kids if I were having a migraine or were otherwise very stressed or sick.  It isn't the norm and it's not something I'd be proud of, it's something I do when I can't cope.

Edited September 1, 2016 by 8circles

[ktgrok]

 

 

No, I don't order my children to do these kinds of things.  I remind them of things that might happen if they do but it isn't disobedience if they don't.  I would be proactive in avoid these situations altogether which is what I described in a prior post.  Children get hurt.  That is pretty unavoidable 

 

 

Ok, I want to know how you are proactive to avoid kids being loud, kids pulling each other around the floor by their feet, having a wet floor, running in the house (keep in mind, that particular kid has already broken one bone running on that particular floor and tends to fall a lot), etc. I honestly would LOVE to know how to prevent one kid climbing on the other for fun, only to end up hurting someone. Etc. Pretty much any orders I give are to stop doing something dangerous. Maybe my kids just seek out dangerous things more than others. Or get hurt more easily. i don't know. 

 

(on that note, I remember taking my oldest to visit a friend of mine at her house for the first time. She was amazed at my son...who instantly scaled her cabinets, then when pulled down proceeded to open them, scale the couch and walk on the back of it, etc. He was 1 year old. Her daughter, same age, had never even attempted to open a cabinet drawer, let alone use it as a stepping stool to climb onto the counter. So maybe my kids just DO seek out danger more, lol.)

[Bluegoat]

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really don't think I understand what you are saying?  Can you elaborate a bit?

 

I'm not sure how far back you followed the exchange, but a poster said that she didn't see why people would say they felt that (some) of the posters who were saying they did not value obedience were just using different language for the same thing.  And subsequently that presumably people who were reading the thread knew what was meant by obedience and whether they were talking about the same thing or not.

 

My point was just that I don't think they are talking about the same thing because they are describing it quite differently.  If one person says she doesn't believe in obedience because it is blind, and another says that being "blind" isn't part of what they believe or teach about obedience, they don't seem to be talking about the same thing at all.  There are a few different examples of these kinds of differences in how people are using the word throughout the discussion.

[ktgrok]

I think I am out of words, but I assure you that I don't just have compliant kids.

 

There certainly is conditioning going on, but it is not of the "do your job/part" variety referred to often.  The conditioning is that we all help and work together always.  It's as boring as eating, or putting on one's shoes.  We just help each other out.  Of course a child who has been conditioned to do his chores, or face a consequence (even if not), and that the parents retain the authority is going to respond much differently than a child who has not.  I think it is beyond reason to suggest that even though we have raised our children differently, and therefore because yours don't respond as mine, I must have just gotten the easy ones.  Six of them, no less.

 

I think we all have to do what works, but I think I'm done trying to explain that I'm not doing what you are doing.  

 

I'm honestly interested in this. How does one condition them to help out and work together? I really am interested. Again, I was a kid that did that. My kids, one is, one might end up that way hard to tell yet, but I think maybe, and one did not. Will not. 

 

as for me causing that behavior, I did NOT expect to have to "make" a kid do anything. Remember, I was raised without punishment, with a mindset that we help one another. I was a kid that just did that. I BLEW MY MIND that my child was not like that. Hence all the books like the explosive child, How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk, etc etc. 

[Bluegoat]

I don't do things I don't want to do, for the most part.  There are privileges and responsibilities and consequences that come with being an adult.  I should take out my trash, but I don't have to.  If I don't, it'll be a huge disgusting mess.  I'll probably eventually be motivated to clean it up, and then I'll probably not do that again, because, well, yuck!

 

Having regular family chores has nothing to do with being a responsible adult, though.  I just don't see the correlation at all.  

 

My kids don't think that I am a servant to them, and, in fact, do a lot of work in our household.  Everyone has to pitch in because there are 8 of us.  The difference is that I recognize that this is my house, and my priorities.  So, each and every time I need something done, I ask.  And I will continue to do so when my kid is married and home to visit for a holiday.  

 

Just because it is natural to you to assume that trash taking out on schedule is a very obvious, must be done thing, it doesn't follow that everyone does.  Our trash needs to go out when it's full, and the person who notices it is full, usually takes it out, or asks someone who isn't busy in the moment to do it.

 

There's more than one way to teach kids to be responsible workers, and it doesn't have to involve splitting up the household chores.  

 

My kids have never had regular chores, but are very hard workers.  My 9 yo carried boxes 8 hours, without complaint, helping a neighbor move.  He was really a help, and not just in the way thinking he was helping.  My 11 yo keeps the kitchen cleaned up mostly on her own, which is no small thing for a family of 8.  When we are traveling or camping or something, the kids almost completely pack everything on their own, neatly.  

 

Things I want done in a certain way or at a certain time, though?  Those are my preferences, and I do it myself.  I might say, "Dd, I am really tired, but we have to leave for x at y time.  Would you mind getting up and making the brownies I said I'd bring?"  She probably will say yes, and, if she does, she'll follow through.  

 

I understand this is so foreign to so many people.  I am surrounded by people who are constantly asking me how we manage a big family, but if it's done with the model of rules and schedules and etc, I think it would be very tiring and life sucking.  I just don't live under that at all.  

 

Taking out the garbage is just an example, and not something to get hung up about.  There is no reason that obedience has to be particularly tied up to chore lists, or schedules, or even formal rules.  If everyone is doing their part on an informal basis, then they are either naturally inclined to do so, or they understand the idea of doing what is necessary just because it needs to be done. 

[LucyStoner]

As for the what if they never question, I will use the clearing/washing one's plate example.  How did they learn to do it?  Well, we showed them that this is what we do and then when they invariably left their plate on the table fairly often we would come with them to the sink and help them or just leave the plates.  When we left it there for them to deal with when they saw an immediate need/motivation (oh, look, mom's cutting pie...if I want some I have to have a plate for her to put it on...little feet running plate to sink to wash and dry it) it reinforced the idea that it's better to just get it done right away.  

 

Do I like having dirty plates on our table?  I do not.  Surprise, I don't have dirty plates on our table the vast majority of the time because the kids have learned to take care of their place setting.  

 

Each time they washed it at first we'd notice it and reward them verbally.  "Frank remembered to wash his plate.  That's so nice.  Thank you Frank.  Hank, your plate's still on the table and it would be great if it's gone before bed."  "Hank, it was so sweet of you to wash your plate and Frank's plate because he went to bed early tonight.  I really appreciate that."  They often help clear the rest of the table just because they are already doing so.  And no, we don't talk a lot about plates here because it's done.  When they are mentioned, it's generally because it's an unusually timed meal and routine disruptions throw things off.  

 

Some things we do because they need doing.  I'm not following them to college or their first apartments.  They have to be able to do it on their own eventually, to their own standards.  I try to teach them standards but accept that when they are on their own, they may decide that paper places are the best thing ever, lol.  

 

I never took away a toy or activity or put them in timeout or sent them to their rooms until they would comply with the expectation that they wash their plates.  I never ordered them to do it.  I showed them how and participated in the routine with them.  If they had never caught on with the gig, the gig would have had to change.  That said, they enjoy sitting down for meals because they like to eat and I'm a better than fair cook who makes them pancakes not just on Sundays.  They have become pretty committed to and invested in the way we do it, because it is pleasant and fun and tasty.  What if they never did it?  Things would not be the same and they like them this way.  2 new kids joined up with this system a lot not too long ago and they were kids who never had to wash a dish in their life.  They were down with our system and visibly excited about it.  Even the moody tween.  I can't say it works for everyone but it worked for my kids and that's why we did it.  

 

 

No, no my sons are not named Frank and Hank.  Lest anyone think me insane or living in 1922.  :lol:

Edited September 1, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Bluegoat]

Le sigh.

 

You don't have any basis whatsoever for repeatedly claiming that I or anyone else are just calling the rose by any other name.

 

I find your remarks and thinly veiled insistence you must know other people's lives better than themselves to be downright rude. Again, I am not telling anyone who has success with a method other than mine that their method is just mine by a different name.

 

Why is it so hard to accept that obedience is not a universally held value among other wise decent parents? Why can't you accept that there are people who are in fact just doing it differently?

 

If people are doing something differently, than they are.

 

If people are not doing something differently, according to their own descriptions, I don't doubt them, either.  I only know what people are saying about their lives and choosing to describe in this particular topic.  If in fact they are really doing something differently which has gone unmentioned, well, it isn't really part of the discussion unless they choose to clarify further.

 

In the latter case, if people doing the same things use a different word to describe them,, it seems likely that what they say they do not value is not the same thing that the other person says they do value.  They could say "well, there is more to it" but of course so could anyone.

[LucyStoner]

Here's a sampling of what *isn't* the same as how things work in my home.  I couldn't even get through the first page, it was too tedious.

 

No - this isn't how things work in our home.  I wouldn't label it "disobedience" nor would I shut off the computer at 31 minutes.  That would be disrespectful IMO and children learn respect by being respected.

 

No, this would absolutely not happen in my home.  I'm also responding to the follow-up to this with more detail but I'm not going back to find it & quote.

 

No, this is not considered disobedience in my home.  "just a minute" is perfectly acceptable, for almost any reason.  I don't find it inappropriate for a child to ask for more time to play outside.

 

These examples would not be considered disobedience but we would certainly try to find solutions, and not have consequences.

 

Yes, the alternative that you thought of would be a valid solution here.  At our house, there is no requirement to help out.  For lots & lots of potential reasons.

 

No, I don't order my children to do these kinds of things.  I remind them of things that might happen if they do but it isn't disobedience if they don't.  I would be proactive in avoid these situations altogether which is what I described in a prior post.  Children get hurt.  That is pretty unavoidable 

 

I'm flabbergasted that people keep saying that we are all doing the same things.  We aren't.  There are lots & lots of posts which detail how.

 

 

+1 

 

It would be rad if people claiming it's all the same could furnish some examples and explanations of HOW it is "the same".  But like you, I am not seeing it.  

[eternalsummer]

Ok, I want to know how you are proactive to avoid kids being loud, kids pulling each other around the floor by their feet, having a wet floor, running in the house (keep in mind, that particular kid has already broken one bone running on that particular floor and tends to fall a lot), etc. I honestly would LOVE to know how to prevent one kid climbing on the other for fun, only to end up hurting someone. Etc. Pretty much any orders I give are to stop doing something dangerous. Maybe my kids just seek out dangerous things more than others. Or get hurt more easily. i don't know. 

 

(on that note, I remember taking my oldest to visit a friend of mine at her house for the first time. She was amazed at my son...who instantly scaled her cabinets, then when pulled down proceeded to open them, scale the couch and walk on the back of it, etc. He was 1 year old. Her daughter, same age, had never even attempted to open a cabinet drawer, let alone use it as a stepping stool to climb onto the counter. So maybe my kids just DO seek out danger more, lol.)

 

I am not a completely no-obedience parent, but in some ways I am, so I will answer the ones I can.

 

Kids being loud:

Kids are sometimes loud. Sometimes I am loud, or DH is loud (loud music, normally).  If DH's music is loud and I am feeling like not listening to loud music, I ask DH to turn it down; if he is really feeling like listening to loud music and not turning it down, I leave the house or go to a different part or something.  I have a very similar interaction with the kids.

 

Kids pulling each other around on the floor by their feet: I have 6 rambunctious kids and have never seen this one.  They do roll around and fight like puppies.  Generally speaking this regulates itself; we do a fair amount of "be careful of the baby" or "remember to be gentle with smaller kids" or I might say to the oldest, "why don't you guys go race on scooters in the garage?" or whatever, to redirect the energy.

eta: if they "disobeyed" in this instance  -that is to say, if they continued roughhousing too roughly with the baby, or something, I'd  take the baby somewhere else or find something else exciting for the kids to do (let's go to the park!  let's watch a movie!  Let's eat noodles! - they are easy to impress).  If I were in a high-anxiety state, which comes and goes, I'd probably yell instead.  I prefer the former way of interacting, and feel pretty guilty about the latter, but my life is mostly the former so I think it's mostly okay.

 

Having a wet floor: I don't have wet floors.  I mop (or DD does) and clean up with the towel sort of as I/we go, so it's never like a whole wet room, just a patch by someone who is obviously mopping?

 

Running in the house: everyone runs in the house.  They love running in the house.  We do not own a single item of furniture (in the main rooms) with a corner.  Round kitchen table, rounded chairs, soft couch with no wood, etc.  We have carpet.  Once the kids are like 4 or 5 running in the house begins to lose its appeal b/c you can't get too far, so they prefer to run outside.  I might have suggested this at some point?  Don't remember.  We've never had a serious injury.

 

 

I have a kid who climbs a lot too; when he was little we got rid of all the kitchen chairs (really) and pushed all furniture up against other furniture so there were no edges to fall off of.  It was kind of a crazy time.  He grew out of it for the most part, and we never had a serious injury :)  Then I had two more non-climber kids and now I have a climber 18 month old and all the kitchen chairs live in the garage; they come out if someone wants to sit at the table, then that person puts the chair back in the garage.

 

They all like to climb on the back of the couch, but it is pretty low and against a wall and very padded and (deliberately) away from other furniture, so I let them.

Edited September 1, 2016 by ananemone

[Bluegoat]

Again, I think what she and others are saying is that the difference is in expectation and power dynamic: if you ask them to do it and they don't do it, they have disobeyed and you will punish them (or somehow force them to do it).  If she asks them to do it and they don't do it, she does not punish them or force them to do it.

 

And the kids know that there is a difference; it is an overt difference, not a covert one.  

 

I don't say that it is better or worse one way or another; we are not formal punishers or formal rewarders (no star charts, no time out, no allowance, etc.), but I am kind of bossy and acknowledge that there is a natural power differential between me and the kids, so I do kind of order them around when I am feeling anxious.  Generally they realize that I am feeling anxious at the time and a good way to alleviate my anxiety is to do what I say, which largely involves cleaning.  Sometimes they don't do it, and I do yelling, and they do yelling, and someone stomps off in a huff, and there is some level of recrimination, and then the tension dissolves and everyone is friends again and either I do the cleaning or we all do, whatever works at the time.

 

I am not what you would call an organized parent :)

 

What strikes me though is people are fairly consistently saying this about kids who are at what you might call the age of reason or beyond, and in most cases ones who aren't making really inappropriate decisions.

 

So far, I haven't seen anyone argue that parents should not give clear direction when necessary to kids who are not yet capable of making appropriate decisions, and in some way enforcing them.  Most obviously with safety related things but potentially any case where the parent sees the stakes as high enough.

 

To me that is the foundation of obedience - that there is some reason the one person is in the position to make a decision/assert power, and the other person needs to be the one to accept that decision.  Some people are calling that responsibility or something else, which I don't see being wrong, it's just what it looks like from the side of the parent (or, teacher, government, whomever is in the leadership position.) 

 

In the case of a parent and small child, that rests on the parent having powers and capacities the child simply doesn't and the parents love of and interest in the child - so on the parent's side, that is a responsibility to keep the child safe or aid him in some way.  It's a function of the natural relationship, difference in age and development - not some arbitrary distinction.

 

On the child's side, the responsibility would be to follow that direction when those situations arise, though in fact with small kids they often don't have a lot of capacity for that either, so it doesn't tend, with anyone really whatever they say about obedience, to look like that.  Typically, as the kids get older, the need for that aspect to be important diminishes, but also the child is more capable of understanding why that would make sense even on an intuitive level.  So I don't think it should be a surprise that the dynamic for older kids looks different for many people. 

 

So - what's the difference, besides the word?  All seem to agree that the parent is in a position to, and in fact obligated to, make these decisions when it is in fact important, that they can insist on them being carried out even against the child's will, and that small kids often won't easily do such things because of their developmental level so they have to be addressed in ways other than just saying "you have to do this because you are not yet capable of making this decision so you must do it."  And I don't think I've actually seen anyone say that it is not a good thing for an older child to learn when she should defer to another's experience or expertise.

 

So - it does pretty much seem like a semantic difference to me.  A lot of the discussion seems to be around what specific issues people think are important enough for a parent to give really firm direction about, but I don't really see that as being at the heart of the question - and beyond that variations of that kind seem to have a lot to do with factors like personality of the people involved and their living situation.

[ktgrok]

I am not a completely no-obedience parent, but in some ways I am, so I will answer the ones I can.

 

 

 

Thanksf or the examples. As one of the kids is still young, I just can't leave the house if he is being loud. He's 3. I can't leave so he can scream talk and make siren noises. If he's in his room, and I'm in mine, it's tolerable, as they are opposite ends of the house, but I could still hear him if he needs me, so I will send him to his room to be loud. Then go to mine. Or if I'm making dinner or can't do that, I ask him to go in his room and close the door. Or you know, stop screaming. The idea that I should leave, or stop doing my job of taking care of the house so he can be loud does seem odd to me :)

 

No carpet. Part of the house is tile, which is where he broke his arm. The rest is laminate, which is'n't a whole lot softer, but is better. Plus a stone hearth by the fireplace to get a concussion on if you land the right way.  And so running and falling in the house just isn't safe. Not in a "oops, a bruise on the knee way" but in a concussion or stitches or broken bone way. He's also put his teeth through his lip at least three times. And hit a tooth up into his gums turning it grey. Plus walls, the child runs into walls now and then too, just the corners. 

 

We did get rid of the kitchen chairs, actually, when he was young :)  DH came home to them all in the garage because it was that or lose my sanity. 

 

I try to run them outside, but when it's so so hot out they end up barely moving when outside, then going nuts again inside. Of course, lol. Looking forward to the cooler weather again! (I'm in Florida, so honestly, we've been inside more also because of Zika and my pregnancy. I do know that is why it is so bad right now. Yoga youtube videos only replace so much)

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[LucyStoner]

 All seem to agree that the parent is in a position to, and in fact obligated to, make these decisions when it is in fact important, that they can insist on them being carried out even against the child's will, and that small kids often won't easily do such things because of their developmental level so they have to be addressed in ways other than just saying "you have to do this because you are not yet capable of making this decision so you must do it."  

 

We all agree to that?  Um.  No.  No we all do not.  If that is what you are taking from my posts, you are just flatly mistaken.  

[8circles]

Ok, I want to know how you are proactive to avoid kids being loud, kids pulling each other around the floor by their feet, having a wet floor, running in the house (keep in mind, that particular kid has already broken one bone running on that particular floor and tends to fall a lot), etc. I honestly would LOVE to know how to prevent one kid climbing on the other for fun, only to end up hurting someone. Etc. Pretty much any orders I give are to stop doing something dangerous. Maybe my kids just seek out dangerous things more than others. Or get hurt more easily. i don't know. 

 

(on that note, I remember taking my oldest to visit a friend of mine at her house for the first time. She was amazed at my son...who instantly scaled her cabinets, then when pulled down proceeded to open them, scale the couch and walk on the back of it, etc. He was 1 year old. Her daughter, same age, had never even attempted to open a cabinet drawer, let alone use it as a stepping stool to climb onto the counter. So maybe my kids just DO seek out danger more, lol.)

 

Well, a large part of it is just accepting that these are things that kids do.  Kids are loud.  Kids get hurt.  Kids have a lot of energy and some have a great need to play in these ways that aren't always socially acceptable.  So I think maybe I don't have the same standards of behavior that you might from the get-go.  My kids climb on each other for fun and as long as nobody who is participating minds, I don't either. My kids climb on the furniture and it's OK with me - outright destructive is not but they don't tend to do that.  Pulling each other around my their feet is OK with me as long as nobody minds.  I don't understand climbing on the cabinets unless you mean climbing on the kitchen counters.  That would depend on the situation whether or not it would be OK.  My children are loud.  My children get hurt - we've had several broken bones, lots of stiches, a handful of concussions and several other random urgent care visits.  It happens.  I would go crazy cakes trying to prevent it all.

 

Proactive for kids being loud and rambunctious (I'm not assuming that you do or don't do any of these things nor am I suggesting that you should, just describing what I do):

Get them outside ASAP every day to burn off energy.  

Feed them healthy, nutritious food with lots of protein.

Enroll them in martial arts.

Model transitioning from wild to calm when entering the house and allowing the time & space needed to do it.

 

Proactive for not walking on a wet floor:

I mop the floor when they aren't home or aren't awake.  

 

My house is far from some harmonious bliss - we don't spend our days singing kumbaya and braiding daisies in each other's hair.  We just got our second dx of ADHD today. 

[LucyStoner]

My kids both had great phases.  There was the sleeps through the night from 3 months and never wakes up stage...until the night terrors hit at age 3.  

 

For one, there was the happily agree with any and everything phase...until that just vanished.  

 

There was the eat anything and everything stage...until morphing into the pickiest child on the planet from ages 2-12 stage.  

 

I learned that what worked yesterday was oftentimes in no way warrantied to work again tomorrow, lol.  

[Bluegoat]

We all agree to that?  Um.  No.  No we all do not.  If that is what you are taking from my posts, you are just flatly mistaken.  

 

Which don't you agree with?

 

That the parent is able to make some decisions the child is not yet capable of (no, you can't run in the road, yes, you need to get a filling, whatever you think could be a comparable example?)

 

That the parent is responsible to do so in such situations?

 

That when the stakes are that high, the parent can sometimes or always have an obligation to make sure it happens (prevent the child from running in the road, drinking the valium, whatever.)

 

That in many cases the child probably won't be able to do those things just because he understands that you understand the situation and he doesn't, or even just have the self control/maturity to do it because you said so?

 

because no, nothing anyone has said suggests that these are controversial ideas.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Bluegoat

[LucyStoner]

Most places where some parents do require obedience ARE NOT a matter of life and death (running into a train) or even health (going to the dentist).  The environment that my children are in is as safe as is developmentally healthy and practically possible.  There's no instance of telling a child not to "drink the valium" because "the valium" is so far out of access the child 9.9 times in 10 couldn't get their hands on it.  For roads, they were able to walk on their own on streets (without holding hands or using a monkey backpack "leash") when they could show they would stop when either asked or when they saw a drive way or street.  I have scared the crap out of some of my friends because my son would be 20+ feet ahead of me on a city sidewalk and they would be wanting to run after him and then they'd see that, without me yelling at him or telling him anything, he stopped and waited at the driveway or the crosswalk or turned around and came back to me.  Going into the driveway would not be naughty or disobedience.  It would be a sign that he was not ready to walk on his own or there was something that day which made it necessary to stay closer to mom or be carried or climb into the stroller.  I suppose I have "the right" to pick up a tired and cranky child and carry them but the vast majority of the time, my sons who were too tired or cranky to walk WANTED to be carried or climb in the stroller.  

 

My 7 year old, at age 6 cooperatively established his own limits on computer time. And this is a child who needs help limiting that. That's not the same thing that people who unplug the computer at one minute over an externally imposed limit do.  It is in fact fundamentally different.  

 

I've seen how my sons (past infancy) reacted to externally imposed limits and the limits they self set or collaborated with us on.  It's night and day.  It's also night and day between "I told you to get off the computer 10 minutes ago, get off it right now or go to your room" and "You seem to have something going on that you aren't ready to stop, how much more time do you need on the computer?" wait for answer   "Will that work with everything else you want to get done today?"  Child input.  And no the outcome isn't generally more computer time to satisfy the child.  The vast majority of the time it's reaching a stopping point in a set time frame of 1-5 minutes or just getting off right away because they realize they are at a good stopping point or they need or want to do something else first.  If I said they have 20 minutes on the computer while I read the paper before we have to go, it's not their fault if I spend 40 minutes reading the paper before I notice.  The computer will log out automatically once their overall daily limits are reach (and one child only has 3 days a week he uses the computer) but they get a heads up from the computer timer and if they ask me, I might add some extra time.  So, in my household no child is ever in trouble for being on the computer too long.  

Edited September 2, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

I'll grant you that we probably run different households overall, but I very much agree that kid-set and agreed upon limits when they're old enough to do it ends much better than what feels like arbitrary parental limits. Even in small things like bedtime, my kids respond better to having the reason we would like them in bed after XYZ or why things need to me quiet in the group bedroom. I don't always succeed at this but I try to get their input before making any major changes to the agreed upon schedule because they are much happier when they have expressed any concerns or thoughts and we mutually agree on a solution.

 

Before about the age of four/five this is much harder, but we do try and be fair and logical in parenting and not just steamroll. They're still humans, even if they're little, impulsive ones. And while we use the word obey quite a bit, there is always room for discussion and appeal/adjustment unless it is an absolute emergency (I'm tempted to try and drop the word with my kids or use it less because it's not really what I mean - usually it's phrased as a request anyway). Thats one of the things I've grown a lot more flexible on now that I have more and older kids. As the first few aged I realized there was no need to make battles needlessly, and everyone was much happier when we could reach mutual cooperation.

 

Not really arguing a thing, your comment just sparked one from my brain in return :)

Edited September 2, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[eternalsummer]

Thanksf or the examples. As one of the kids is still young, I just can't leave the house if he is being loud. He's 3. I can't leave so he can scream talk and make siren noises. If he's in his room, and I'm in mine, it's tolerable, as they are opposite ends of the house, but I could still hear him if he needs me, so I will send him to his room to be loud. Then go to mine. Or if I'm making dinner or can't do that, I ask him to go in his room and close the door. Or you know, stop screaming. The idea that I should leave, or stop doing my job of taking care of the house so he can be loud does seem odd to me :)

 

No carpet. Part of the house is tile, which is where he broke his arm. The rest is laminate, which is'n't a whole lot softer, but is better. Plus a stone hearth by the fireplace to get a concussion on if you land the right way.  And so running and falling in the house just isn't safe. Not in a "oops, a bruise on the knee way" but in a concussion or stitches or broken bone way. He's also put his teeth through his lip at least three times. And hit a tooth up into his gums turning it grey. Plus walls, the child runs into walls now and then too, just the corners. 

 

We did get rid of the kitchen chairs, actually, when he was young :)  DH came home to them all in the garage because it was that or lose my sanity. 

 

I try to run them outside, but when it's so so hot out they end up barely moving when outside, then going nuts again inside. Of course, lol. Looking forward to the cooler weather again! (I'm in Florida, so honestly, we've been inside more also because of Zika and my pregnancy. I do know that is why it is so bad right now. Yoga youtube videos only replace so much)

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I do have the privilege of being able to leave the house more or less whenever; DH and I both work from home, so I can leave the kids (most of them) with him, or he can leave them with me.  This has saved my sanity many a time :)

 

But as I said, that is kind of the last resort.  For the most part, if someone is being loud, they keep being loud, as we are all pretty tolerant of other people's loudness.  If the loudness is bothering someone, that someone normally asks the loud person to be quieter and the loud person is normally quieter.  We do have a fenced yard and a finished basement, both of which are *great* for either redirecting a loud person (other than DH with music) or escaping to for a bit to get away from the chaos.  

 

But mostly, say 95% of the time, the loud person just stops being so loud.  I don't know that that would work as well if I didn't tolerate loudness a fair amount of the time, though  - if every single time DH played music I complained, or every time the kids were making loud machine gun tank engine sounds I insisted they stop, then they'd probably resist more (although I don't know this for sure).

 

Yes, tile is a disaster for kids!  We had hardwood at the last house and there was still running; no injuries.  We had a stone hearth for the fireplace but kept it covered in fluffy pillows and rugs and etc. when not directly in use, as it did make DH nervous.

[LucyStoner]

Ok, I want to know how you are proactive to avoid kids being loud, kids pulling each other around the floor by their feet, having a wet floor, running in the house (keep in mind, that particular kid has already broken one bone running on that particular floor and tends to fall a lot), etc. I honestly would LOVE to know how to prevent one kid climbing on the other for fun, only to end up hurting someone. Etc. Pretty much any orders I give are to stop doing something dangerous. Maybe my kids just seek out dangerous things more than others. Or get hurt more easily. i don't know.

 

 

When my younger son was a too young to reason with climber he required near constant supervision. If he was climbing on something he really couldn't, I'd move him to something he could climb. Also as he grew older keeping him engaged in something he liked. When he sprung from the top bunk and hurt his ankle, we detached the beds into singles. We put them together again when he was a bit older and I got him a large squishy cushion to jump onto and we put up stuff he could climb and spent a lot of time at parks with climbing equipment and walls. He doesn't jump off the bunk much but when he does, he's playing it safe with the cushion.

 

I can basically hold the noise, fracas and rumbles to a tolerable level with routine keeping them engaged in activities and letting them have an outlet for needing to move. When I see they are full of energy, it's not time to be inside or to try and do a quiet activity. Grab your scooter. Go on the patio and jump on your trampoline. Go run around the block. We can generally find something that works for all of us. I've nipped many a boredom quarrel in the bud lately by announcing "DANCE PARTY" and turning on a silly song and everyone (even mama) dances like a maniac. I did that just today by turning on a They Might Be Giants song. "This is where the party ends..." Other things we do are to start a meditation tape or pull out everyone's yoga mats.

 

When I need to rest or there's a special reason they need to be quieter, I tell them that and then help them find the activities that will make that quiet time achievable. For my younger son, things like books on tape while drawing or reading comics with his big brother works. For my older son, he's pretty understanding now and will generally take it seriously and find something on his own but when he was younger and didn't get it so well I could usually set him to a task like typing up spelling words, getting him to read to his brother or letting him put in Cosmos or similar. We have a dedicated quiet time during the school year.

 

I am not someone who especially likes repetitive daily routines and schedules. I'd prefer to not write everything on today's and tomorrow's agenda on a white board so they can predict what is happening. I didn't used to meditate or do yoga or own a scooter. But that is what they need/Ed and I prefer doing all that to, uh, the alternatives.

[Guest]

To me that is the foundation of obedience - that there is some reason the one person is in the position to make a decision/assert power, and the other person needs to be the one to accept that decision. Some people are calling that responsibility or something else, which I don't see being wrong, it's just what it looks like from the side of the parent (or, teacher, government, whomever is in the leadership position.)

When my youngest was <4 yo, I found his behavior very baffling. I remember reading a whole lot of books and websites, searching for insight as to how to parent him best. This was when I became familiar with the Raising Godly Tomatoes site often discussed around here. One particular article she wrote stated you should "teach your child Obedience so you don't have to teach them anything else." Then it had a bunch of vignettes of what that means (to her), such as switching hands that pull books off the bookcase. (This was a baby.) there was also a lot of intentional "training" sessions in which the parent sets up a temptation and then swoops in with negative outcomes when the child disobeys.

 

SO: to me, this is what "obedience" means. (BTW, this is not the full extent of my experience with "Obedience"; just one of the most recent.) In my view, it is obedience if the converse is disobedience. Obedience means, "I say do this and if you don't, I am not going to let you get away scot-free; I'm either going to make you comply or make it negative in a way that will make you wish you had." The literal definition of obedience is to submit to an authority, to comply with the wishes of another.

 

When my kids were very young (esp weirdly rigid youngest child), there were a lot of situations where I did just have to make the thing happen. He went ballistic to be buckled into a carseat; sorry, you have to go in the car seat. But to me, I still think "teaching obedience" is a different thing, probably in part because of views like the RGT view. Even in the thick of it, I could imagine the day would come he would buckle in without fanfare. I did not retain this "Do it because I said so" beyond a point where he became a rational human being. Four was a turning point with him. Now, some of my friends who knew him from those early days marvel at how agreeable and easy he seems now.

 

I do think there's a point where its just plain difficult to show anyone what happens in a household over the internet. How can anyone understand the to e, the expectations, how the kids respond, etc? It is an exercise in futility.

[ktgrok]

I'll admit, my head hurts trying to imagine finding a way to make it imposssible or at least inconvenient for my 3 yr old to run in the house. But I'm willing to believe others managed somehow. 

 

Quill, I think you and I have vastly different definitions we are working from, and probably have about the same parenting structure/routine going on. RGT made me want to vomit, literally. There is very little "because I said so" attitude here. I won't say NEVER because I'm fairly sure with my aspie oldest there were a few times when I said that in exasperation, not that it helped at all. 

 

The kids climb on the table I moved the chairs to the garage. I do try to limit the ways they can get into "trouble" and 99 precent of the time "trouble" in my house means doing something dangerous to self or others. So hitting, kicking, sitting on a sibling, running in a place dangerous to run, etc. The rest of the time it is something not dangerous, but irritating to the well being of others, so screaming in the house instead of using an inside voice, saying something that hurts another's feelings, or being inconsiderate in some way. I don't say "clean up your desk or there is (insert punishment). I just say "if you want to do your craft for today you need to clean your desk first. And they do. Or I might say "alright everyone, daddy will be home soon, let's all help clean up so it looks nice when he walks in" or what not.That works on the small ones. The big one, I just walk in and say "Hey, trash needs to go down. Thanks" and he does it. He and I only clash over the rotting food in his room and his school work and honestly, I gave up on school at the end of this summer. He's in DE classes now. His room..ugh. Someday he'll move out....but I have no high hopes it improves then. I'd help and go in and take them out of there myself but that also bothers him. But again, no punishment as a general rule, although if it gets to where I can smell it I do say "clean it up by the end of the day, its making me literally ill. Otherwise internet goes off until you do." Because it is my house and I deserve to live somewhere that isn't a biohazard. 

 

The idea of swatting babies, or kids that mindlessly do whatever is told with zero reasons, etc is NOT what I'm talking about. So if nothing else, I guess I'm saying there is a middle ground between that, and the total cooperative model with zero rules. I think you and I both fall in that middle spectrum, somewhere. 

[Zinnia]

Much of what is being discussed as disobedience (loudness, running in the house, whatever), I tend to think of as childishness.  I have a lot more patience for childishness, though it sometimes baffles me.  (but why???? why is this considered something to explore???  coming from a naturally not that curious person.  :) )

 

The disobedience that I have a much harder time with is straight up "no." Usually accompanied by a full on verbal argument or, for some of my kids, tantrums at finding out that things weren't exactly as they expected (but I didn't realize that 5 minutes would feel like this, and that the playdate would really, really end, and I don't like this feeling!)  It doesn't surprise me as often now (my oldest is 10), but it does catch me by surprise.  The child that has always gotten into a carseat or buckled his seatbelt easily and well suddenly decides that today is the day to fight it.  The child that picks today as the day to refuse to do any schoolwork.  The child that is annoying another child by words or physicality that will not respond to a verbal request for them to stop.  I would love to be the mom that talks through these things, which I find a little easier as my kids are able to express themselves (so I can figure out the motivation), as well as choose to have these moments less often.  But the all day arguing/negotiating/refusing to cooperate from several small children can wear.you.down.  And it's in those moments that I do just wish they would choose to obey, across the board.  :)

[maize]

Much of what is being discussed as disobedience (loudness, running in the house, whatever), I tend to think of as childishness. I have a lot more patience for childishness, though it sometimes baffles me. (but why???? why is this considered something to explore??? coming from a naturally not that curious person. :) )

 

The disobedience that I have a much harder time with is straight up "no." Usually accompanied by a full on verbal argument or, for some of my kids, tantrums at finding out that things weren't exactly as they expected (but I didn't realize that 5 minutes would feel like this, and that the playdate would really, really end, and I don't like this feeling!) It doesn't surprise me as often now (my oldest is 10), but it does catch me by surprise. The child that has always gotten into a carseat or buckled his seatbelt easily and well suddenly decides that today is the day to fight it. The child that picks today as the day to refuse to do any schoolwork. The child that is annoying another child by words or physicality that will not respond to a verbal request for them to stop. I would love to be the mom that talks through these things, which I find a little easier as my kids are able to express themselves (so I can figure out the motivation), as well as choose to have these moments less often. But the all day arguing/negotiating/refusing to cooperate from several small children can wear.you.down. And it's in those moments that I do just wish they would choose to obey, across the board. :)

I like to remember that learning to use "no" is critical to the development of individual boundaries--something our children badly need in order to be healthy people!

 

Makes life challenging at times for parents for sure, but I'd much rather have kids who practice boundary setting than kids who don't :)

[ktgrok]

Also, again to clarify, at no point do I think "oh no, this child is being disobedient! Better make him toe the line and respect my authority!" I just think "oh no, he's going to smash his face if he jumps off that that way again" or "If I can't get them to be quieter I'm going to lose my ever loving mind" or "this room stinks, I'm going to vomit". IT's about solving the issue, not making them mind me, per se. 

[wendyroo]

I like to remember that learning to use "no" is critical to the development of individual boundaries--something our children badly need in order to be healthy people!

 

Makes life challenging at times for parents for sure, but I'd much rather have kids who practice boundary setting than kids who don't :)

 

Conversely, learning to accept another person's "no" is also part of healthy development.  

 

"No, I do not want you climbing on me right now."

!*!*!whine-cry-tantrum!*!*!

"I'm sorry you are upset, but I must insist you not climb on me right now."

 

I'm sometimes astonished at how few boundaries "good" parents are "allowed" to have.  It seems the pendulum has swung so the child is now viewed as incapable of doing any wrong or being held to any standards and the parent is responsible for putting up with absolutely any behavior even if that means completely sacrificing even the smallest personal boundaries.

 

Wendy

[maize]

Conversely, learning to accept another person's "no" is also part of healthy development.

 

"No, I do not want you climbing on me right now."

!*!*!whine-cry-tantrum!*!*!

"I'm sorry you are upset, but I must insist you not climb on me right now."

 

I'm sometimes astonished at how few boundaries "good" parents are "allowed" to have. It seems the pendulum has swung so the child is now viewed as incapable of doing any wrong or being held to any standards and the parent is responsible for putting up with absolutely any behavior even if that means completely sacrificing even the smallest personal boundaries.

 

Wendy

True!

[maize]

There is real difficulty in enforcing boundaries with highly emotional kids--they lose any modicum of rationality so easily, and reason is needed to understand boundaries and consequences (even natural consequences like "if I jump off of this I will get hurt.")

 

I have not discovered any magical solutions yet!

Edited September 2, 2016 by maize

[madteaparty]

I agree with sadie that obey/disobey is not how we function in my house.

I will add the disclaimer that i have an extremely compliant, chill boy who does what I ask...I only realize how good he is like that when I have his peers over to stay for months at a time and wonder if they have a hearing problem or maybe I'm insane or something :) I kind of worry about his ability to say "screw this, NO". But I'm not eager for him to practice on me, lol.

But. My daughter is not obedient at all. I am not going to "break" her into my mold of what a perfect child should be (DS, lol). She is pretty awesome as is, and the the fact that she refuses to wear a skirt or dress for example breaks my heart but I am not going to break her!!!

Edited September 2, 2016 by madteaparty

[wendyroo]

I agree with sadie that obey/disobey is not how we function in my house.

I will add the disclaimer that i have an extremely compliant, chill boy who does what I ask...I only realize how good he is like that when I have his peers over to stay for months at a time and wonder if they have a hearing problem or maybe I'm insane or something :) I kind of worry about his ability to say "screw this, NO". But I'm not eager for him to practice on me, lol.

But. My daughter is not obedient at all. I am not going to "break" her into my mold of what a perfect child should be (DS, lol). She is pretty awesome as is, and the the fact that she refuses to wear a skirt or dress for example breaks my heart but I am not going to break her!!!

 

Let's talk when she refuses to stop spitting at family members in the house multiple times a day for three years.  That is what my 7 year old does and at some point "He's awesome as he is!!  It is not my right to break him into my mold!!" is the last thing on my mind.

 

Wendy

[maize]

Let's talk when she refuses to stop spitting at family members in the house multiple times a day for three years. That is what my 7 year old does and at some point "He's awesome as he is!! It is not my right to break him into my mold!!" is the last thing on my mind.

 

Wendy

Or biting family members hard enough to leave long-lasting bruises.

 

Or regularly dumping food all over the floor.

 

Or destroying stuff for no apparent reason.

 

Or screaming piercingly on a habitual basis.

 

Or shoving and hitting smaller people.

 

Or smearing feces all over.

 

I have zero interest in breaking anyone's will. Obedience is not a word I care for.

 

But oh, to achieve moderately civilized behavior!!!

[maize]

The trouble here is that none of the standard parenting tricks (consequences?) are going to have any effect. The obedience paradigm is useless.

 

There is stuff I can do--more structure, more validation, seeking outside experts--but there just are no magic bullets.

[ktgrok]

Let's talk when she refuses to stop spitting at family members in the house multiple times a day for three years.  That is what my 7 year old does and at some point "He's awesome as he is!!  It is not my right to break him into my mold!!" is the last thing on my mind.

 

Wendy

 

Right. Dress or whatever, who cares. I don't. Heck, wear non matching outfits, wear long pants in 90 degree weather, do whatever. But that's not hurting anyone. When I step in is safety or infringing on others. 

[wendyroo]

Right. Dress or whatever, who cares. I don't. Heck, wear non matching outfits, wear long pants in 90 degree weather, do whatever. But that's not hurting anyone. When I step in is safety or infringing on others. 

 

I did step in and hide the fleece pajamas when he was insisting on wearing two pairs at once and sleeping under a heavy quilt in the middle of the summer and causing himself to vomit from overheating and dehydration.  I COULD NOT reason with him and he actually pillaged the house searching for them so I ended up having to keep them under lock and key...pajamas...from a 7 year old...who was causing himself to throw up every night...

 

That is how out of touch and unreachable some kids are, and I think that is incomprehensible to a lot of people.

 

Honestly, in many ways he makes our lives hellish, and we are far, far beyond "making him" dress in an aesthetically pleasing manner and into the realm of protecting our family (him included) from his constant physical and mental abuse. 

 

Wendy