Say it isn't So! Cop Writes about Extent of Hook-Up Culture on Campus

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Coming from a family of cops (parents worked for Los Angeles Sheriff Dept and sister works vice in LAPD), this sounds pretty typical and was true enough when I was in college in the 90s. It doesn't seem like much has changed.

 

ETA: sister works for pd not county.

 

Also to clarify, it's the binge drinking that seems pretty typical. Hook up culture is definitely more extreme than I can remember it being. I think social media and dating apps that make hook ups easier have a lot to do with this, in addition to the substance abuse that passes for fun in our society.

Edited June 16, 2016 by TianXiaXueXiao

[swimmermom3]

Right right, but I mean from the perspective of this cop. If she says I woke up behind a dumpster and was assaulted. And he (the rapist) said the sex happened consensually ....it's pretty clear this cop would take his opinions about 90% of rape cases being a result of blackout drinking. Right ? I don't see any scenario where this is 'rape-rape' except that someone witnessed the assault .

 

Oh, I totally get what you are saying. I am not sure how much credence to give this story, but I think as I stated in the other thread, his comment about these girls basically roofieing themselves between the depression meds and the alcohol, really gave me a pause for thought.

 

Actually, it's too terrifying to think about. My dd is so acutely aware of the affects of alcohol and her meds.

 

[swimmermom3]

She was referring to WORK happy hour culture and though considering it isn't a bad idea, I can tell you from horror stories my dh has shared over the years that many of those people are on Rx that contradicts use of alcohol, but there they are, getting plastered at the office party or happy hour after work. You'd think like dh and I that especially in this job market, people would be hyper vigilant about their professional image but apparently not. Dh goes, has maybe one beer if that, shakes the bosses hand and then blames his ball and chain wife for having to leave early. 😎 But he says it's not at all unusual for people to drink so much that they are well on the road to drunk before he can even finish his one beer or Diet Pepsi and since some talk openly about being on anti-depressants or other medications - dh is stunned they ever show up to work the next day. And yes, they laugh about how they don't remember much of anything.

 

Being drunk at office parties or plastered at happy hours after work is nothing new.  Again, think of the I dream of Jeanie days or Bewitched. That kind of heavy drinking was going on then. My mom has horror stories of office parties as well. 

 

I worked for an alternative newspaper in my 20s and we were relatively careful about where we did our drinking and how much. It was too easy to run into a client.  In fact, some of the bars and restaurants were clients. 

 

[MaeFlowers]

I don't know if this has been addressed already but there is nothing new in that article. People were engaging in the same behaviors when I was on college 20 years ago. Dh says the same was true at his school. I guess I'm sort of surprised by the idea that this is new?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Coming from a family of cops (parents worked for Los Angeles Sheriff Dept and sister works vice in LAPD), this sounds pretty typical and was true enough when I was in college in the 90s. It doesn't seem like much has changed.

 

ETA: sister works for pd not county.

 

Also to clarify, it's the binge drinking that seems pretty typical. Hook up culture is definitely more extreme than I can remember it being. I think social media and dating apps that make hook ups easier have a lot to do with this, in addition to the substance abuse that passes for fun in our society.

 

It is false that 90% of rapes are due to women being drunk and having "regrets" the next day.  Simply false.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

It is false that 90% of rapes are due to women being drunk and having "regrets" the next day. Simply false.

Where does he say that? He does say "Here is the down and dirty bottom line regarding 90%+ of reported adult sexual assaults: It’s the alcohol. Period. Full stop." He goes on to describe the fact that many women choose to drop charges and describes what a purgatory it is to try and make these kinds of assault cases stick. He acknowledges that he blames the victim to some degree for the circumstances they create through their actions of binge drinking and casual sexual encounters. It's not the victim's fault that the perp takes advantage of the fact that she's made herself vulnerable by forfeiting her ability to be aware and on guard. Sexual Assault is always wrong. Always. Wrong. I hold myself and my children accountable for operating under a certain amount of wisdom. If I leave my laptop sitting on the passenger seat of my car with the windows down and the door unlocked while I go into the bank for 30 minutes, there's a good chance someone may take advantage of the opportunity that's been created for them through my lack of vigilance. It doesn't mean that stealing the laptop is morally correct or that it's my fault that it got stolen, but it does mean that I literally left the door open to someone looking for an opprtunity to take advantage of.

Edited June 16, 2016 by TianXiaXueXiao

[Corraleno]

Where does he say that? He does say "Here is the down and dirty bottom line regarding 90%+ of reported adult sexual assaults: It’s the alcohol. Period. Full stop." He goes on to describe the fact that many women choose to drop charges and describes what a purgatory it is to try and make these kinds of assault cases stick. He acknowledges that he blames the victim to some degree for the circumstances they create through their actions of binge drinking and casual sexual encounters. It's not the victim's fault that the perp takes advantage of the fact that she's made herself vulnerable by forfeiting her ability to be aware and on guard. Sexual Assault is always wrong. Always. Wrong. I hold myself and my children accountable for operating under a certain amount of wisdom. If I leave my laptop sitting on the passenger seat of my car with the windows down and the door unlocked while I go into the bank for 30 minutes, there's a good chance someone may take advantage of the opportunity that's been created for them through my lack of vigilance. It doesn't mean that stealing the laptop is morally correct or that it's my fault that it got stolen, but it does mean that I literally left the door open to someone looking for an opprtunity to take advantage of.

 

More than half of female undergraduates who reported being raped said they were raped by force — held down, hit, or threatened with a weapon. The claim that "90+%" of sexual assault is just drunk girls creating "opportunities" for men to rape them is an ugly, dangerous, victim-blaming lie.

[kroe1]

It ain't so.

I do not believe this guy is a cop.

If he is, he is a terrible one. For several reasons. Biggest being that he says outright he won't charge someone accused of rape unless he has MORE than probable cause. Completely inappropriate.

I work in an ER. It is extremely rare for a policeman to walk out of a patient room with a request to file a complaint. Why? Partially because the police tell the victim it is a waste of time. With a backlog of over 13,000 unprocessed rape kits, there is really no reason to file rape charges in Florida. While the state is now trying to get a handle on the problem, those who are actually jailed for rape compared to the number of complaints does make the entire process seem pointless.

[trulycrabby]

Aside from everything else that was the horror of that article...Ambien? Wow, I had no idea.

[Bluegoat]

People who cannot remember anything about what happened need to consider that they may have been roofied. 

 

POssibly, but it is also quite possible it's just a memory impairment.

 

I seem to recall reading a while ago about an area that actually tested quite a few women who thought their drinks had been drugged, and they kept track of the results.  They found that very few had been drugged - it might actually have been none, but I don't feel likel I can remember for sure. 

 

I think a lot of people don't realize how easy it is to lose memory from drinking.  I was always somewhat moderate, amount-wise, during my most party-going years - I'm not that large and my tolderance isn't huge - but I have quite a few instnces where I have missing parts of the evening, or especially where I don't remember going to bed and what led up to it.

[Bluegoat]

More than half of female undergraduates who reported being raped said they were raped by force — held down, hit, or threatened with a weapon. The claim that "90+%" of sexual assault is just drunk girls creating "opportunities" for men to rape them is an ugly, dangerous, victim-blaming lie.

 

It's very difficult to compare these kinds of stats though.  Are the cases he sees the same people that make these reports?  I wouldn't say necessarily.  They may be people who initially are unsure about the incident, but later would not describe it as rape.  They may feel unsure and that is why they want to talk to someone.  It may be he gets called in by someone else rather than by a complaint being made directly. 

 

The point it seems to me is that a lot of the people he meets really have no idea what happened to them, whether they were assaulted or not, and even if they were, the possibility of doing anything about it is very low.  Whatever you want to call that, it isn't a good situation.

[MaeFlowers]

Aside from everything else that was the horror of that article...Ambien? Wow, I had no idea.

I didn't either. You couldn't pay me to take that stuff and I don't drink.

Another one is antidepressants. They increase the effects of alcohol. I don't know that many people pay attention to their warning labels. At this age they might be doing it on purpose.

[Corraleno]

I find it really interesting that an anonymous letter from a man claiming to be a cop, citing totally made-up statistics that are flat-out contradicted by every study ever done on college sexual assault, is totally taken at face value, while the claims of millions of women who report having been sexually assaulted are open to doubt.

[Caroline]

I find it really interesting that an anonymous letter from a man claiming to be a cop, citing totally made-up statistics that are flat-out contradicted by every study ever done on college sexual assault, is totally taken at face value, while the claims of millions of women who report having been sexually assaulted are open to doubt.

EXACTLY!

[Bluegoat]

I find it really interesting that an anonymous letter from a man claiming to be a cop, citing totally made-up statistics that are flat-out contradicted by every study ever done on college sexual assault, is totally taken at face value, while the claims of millions of women who report having been sexually assaulted are open to doubt.

 

I think if you look at people's comments, it is because what he is saying resonates with their experience.

 

The vast majority of people I know who have had what I would call "bad sexual experiences" have had them under those kinds of conditions.  That is, they felt there was something off, or possibly coerced, or that they didn't remember or would not under normal circumstances have been involved with, or that someone took advantage of them.

 

If I were to say people I know who have been sexually assaulted in a way that could be taken to trial, that would not be true, at all, but that seems to me to kind of be the point.

[Bluegoat]

I didn't either. You couldn't pay me to take that stuff and I don't drink.

Another one is antidepressants. They increase the effects of alcohol. I don't know that many people pay attention to their warning labels. At this age they might be doing it on purpose.

 

I've read that something over 20% of students take anti-depressent in university in the US, so that is a lot of people.  I don't know that combining would have to be on purpose though - I suspect many would just assume it wasn't a big deal.  I was actually taking an anti-depressant at that age, and I know I did not realize at the time that I needed to be more careful with alchohol.

 

In fact, thinking about it, I know quite a few people who are adults who don't worry about combining them, or the anti-depressants and weed.  It doesn't seem to occur that they would really affect each other.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I find it really interesting that an anonymous letter from a man claiming to be a cop, citing totally made-up statistics that are flat-out contradicted by every study ever done on college sexual assault, is totally taken at face value, while the claims of millions of women who report having been sexually assaulted are open to doubt.

 

Well, let's say it's 100% legit and he has made a very reasonable assessment of the number of times he has seen this stuff happen.  I don't think this necessarily answers all the questions as to why this problem is happening as often as it is.  For example, he is talking about those he sees make their way to the ER.  What about those who don't show up at the ER?  What is the reason they show up in the ER?  Is it always just about the rape, or could it be they got very sick from too much drinking or they passed out from being drugged and don't know how it happened or what was given to them.  KWIM?

 

We can't entirely blame the drinking because I assume male college students are drinking excessively at a similar (possibly higher) rate than females yet not many of them report being raped (if any, won't say none because it's possible).

 

It isn't scientific, but it's not entirely useless information. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I took Ambian one time while in the hospital.  Holy crap, I slept like I was dead.  It was great for that purpose because I really needed the rest, but I'd be afraid of what could happen to me or  what I might do in that state. 

 

 

[marbel]

I think if you look at people's comments, it is because what he is saying resonates with their experience.

 

The vast majority of people I know who have had what I would call "bad sexual experiences" have had them under those kinds of conditions.  That is, they felt there was something off, or possibly coerced, or that they didn't remember or would not under normal circumstances have been involved with, or that someone took advantage of them.

 

If I were to say people I know who have been sexually assaulted in a way that could be taken to trial, that would not be true, at all, but that seems to me to kind of be the point.

 

That's true for me. 

 

I re-read the article and I can see how people are coming to the conclusion that he may not be a legitimate cop. 

 

But the story he tells, about the girl and the drinking and her experience... I've seen this so many times.  Even if he made that particular story up for the purposes of the article, it's a true story.  It does happen that way.

 

[Bluegoat]

Well, let's say it's 100% legit and he has made a very reasonable assessment of the number of times he has seen this stuff happen.  I don't think this necessarily answers all the questions as to why this problem is happening as often as it is.  For example, he is talking about those he sees make their way to the ER.  What about those who don't show up at the ER?  What is the reason they show up in the ER?  Is it always just about the rape, or could it be they got very sick from too much drinking or they passed out from being drugged and don't know how it happened or what was given to them.  KWIM?

 

We can't entirely blame the drinking because I assume male college students are drinking excessively at a similar (possibly higher) rate than females yet not many of them report being raped (if any, won't say none because it's possible).

 

It isn't scientific, but it's not entirely useless information. 

 

I'd bet men are less likely to show up at the ER for alchohol related issues, just because their tolerance tends to be higher.  As far as sexual assault, they might be less likely to tell if it happened, or less likely to think it was assault.  The girl, a friend of his (and a nice person, actually) propositioned him earlier in the night.  They had hooked up before. He said no, but after he went back, he woke up to find her on top of him and they were having unprotected sex.  He had been asleep for a while, and she didn't come back with him - she snuck into the room later.

 

I had a male friend in the army who was, by all normal standards, raped.  He really didn't at all consider it that way though - I suggested to him that it could be looked at that way, and he just didn't feel that way about it.  He was annoyed, because he felt she had been thoughtless, and because she gave him an STI, but he really didn't feel assaulted, more like someone whose friend had borrowed his car without asking and got a flat tire.

 

My sense is that might be a fairly common response among men.  And guys I know who were uncomfortable with things women said or did IME tended not to want to talk about it.

[Bluegoat]

Do people take Ambien for fun?  That does not seem at all fun to me, what is the point supposed to be?

[hornblower]

One thing that strikes me is how people talk about male victims of hazing / initiation rituals (esp in the context of frat/sororities) v.  female victims of parties.

 

In both cases, there's usually too much alcohol and the victim willingly places themselves in a situation of risk. 

It seems to me the victims of the hazing rituals are afforded much more sympathy. 

 

[Greta]

I think if you look at people's comments, it is because what he is saying resonates with their experience.

 

The vast majority of people I know who have had what I would call "bad sexual experiences" have had them under those kinds of conditions.  That is, they felt there was something off, or possibly coerced, or that they didn't remember or would not under normal circumstances have been involved with, or that someone took advantage of them.

 

If I were to say people I know who have been sexually assaulted in a way that could be taken to trial, that would not be true, at all, but that seems to me to kind of be the point.

 

 

I've posted about this in other threads, but what he's saying doesn't resonate with my experience at all, not even remotely, not even in the ball park.  Of all the women that I know who have been raped, and that incidentally is a shockingly high percentage of the women I know overall, alcohol was only involved ONE TIME, and that was half a beer.  She had half of a beer, and then regained consciousness in a strange place being raped by the guy who had handed her the beer.  Obviously she was drugged, because nobody passes out from half a beer.  In all the other cases that I know of, alcohol was not involved at all.  And yet they still would not fit the profile of those stranger rapes, which he seems to think are the only true rapes that occur.  It was always someone she knew:  a neighbor, some older students (yes, plural  :ack2:  :angry:  :crying: ), a coworker, a date, a "friend".  They were all raped because the rapists overpowered them with sheer brute force.  I have no doubt that getting excessively drunk can make a rapist's task much easier for him if you happen to have the misfortune of being in the vicinity of a rapist when you drink, but this guy's ridiculous claim that 90% of rapes are about alcohol is ABSURD.  He's perpetuating a misogynistic stereotype of the typical rape victim as a drunk slut who regretted her choices the next day.  It is an insult to all victims, and all women.  It didn't occur to me when I first read it that he might not be a cop at all, but I hope the people who have pointed out that possibility are right, because God help us if these are the kinds of cops who handle rape cases.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Greta

[Paige]

POssibly, but it is also quite possible it's just a memory impairment.

 

I seem to recall reading a while ago about an area that actually tested quite a few women who thought their drinks had been drugged, and they kept track of the results.  They found that very few had been drugged - it might actually have been none, but I don't feel likel I can remember for sure. 

 

I think a lot of people don't realize how easy it is to lose memory from drinking.  I was always somewhat moderate, amount-wise, during my most party-going years - I'm not that large and my tolderance isn't huge - but I have quite a few instnces where I have missing parts of the evening, or especially where I don't remember going to bed and what led up to it.

 

This may be true, but date rape drugs are hard to test for. A high false negative result should be expected. This is from the US Women's Health site: These drugs also leave the body very quickly. Once a victim gets help, there might be no proof that drugs were involved in the attack. (womenshealth.gov)

 

Of the people I know personally who have been raped, I don't think any of them reported it and none of them ended up w/ an arrest. It's more than a handful and those are only the people who've spoken about it. None of their situations were like the "cop" described. I think rapes and sexual assault are seriously under reported. As a mother it's terrifying. I have 3 daughters and 4 nieces. With the stats being 1 in 6...our odds are not good. 

Edited June 16, 2016 by Paige

[Bluegoat]

One thing that strikes me is how people talk about male victims of hazing / initiation rituals (esp in the context of frat/sororities) v.  female victims of parties.

 

In both cases, there's usually too much alcohol and the victim willingly places themselves in a situation of risk. 

 

It seems to me the victims of the hazing rituals are afforded much more sympathy. 

 

 

 

I think that is probably true, though I don't think they necessarily should be.

 

I suspect people see the hazing ritual victims as having been pressured into the whole situation against their better judgement, which is probably occasionally true, but I think most of the time it isn't the case really.  They are looking to have fun and so they decide to join in.

 

It might be because a lot of movies and tv shows have that kind of plotline?

[Bluegoat]

I've posted about this in other threads, but what he's saying doesn't resonate with my experience at all, not even remotely, not even in the ball park.  Of all the women that I know who have been raped, and that incidentally is a shockingly high percentage of the women I know overall, alcohol was only involved ONE TIME, and that was half a beer.  She had half of a beer, and then regained consciousness in a strange place being raped by the guy who had handed her the beer.  Obviously she was drugged, because nobody passes out from half a beer.  In all the other cases that I know of, alcohol was not involved at all.  And yet they still would not fit the profile of those stranger rapes, which he seems to think are the only true rapes that occur.  It was always someone she knew:  a neighbor, some older students (yes, plural  :ack2:  :angry:  :crying: ), a coworker, a date, a "friend".  They were all raped because the rapists overpowered them with sheer brute force.  I have no doubt that getting excessively drunk can make a rapist's task much easier for him if you happen to have the misfortune of being in the vicinity of a rapist when you drink, but this guy's ridiculous claim that 90% of rapes are about alcohol is ABSURD.  He's perpetuating a misogynistic stereotype of the typical rape victim as a drunk slut who regretted her choices the next day.  It is an insult to all victims, and all women.  It didn't occur to me when I first read it that he might not be a cop at all, but I hope the people who have pointed out that possibility are right, because God help us if these are the kinds of cops who handle rape cases.

 

I didn't get the impression at all that the guy thinks stranger rapes are the only ones that happen.  My impression was that he felt those were what a lot of people thought of as "classic" rape scenarios, and also that they were easier to prosecute.  Both of which seem to be true.

 

I suppose what I would ask is what if you didn't worry about defining these experiences as rapes?  What I mean is, what he is describing is not necessarily legally rape at all.  Would you call something like that rape, or would your friends? Or would they be inclined to wonder? If they wouldn't, then they would not really be counted in the assault experiences you are thinking of, people would call them something else, or nothing.  If you included things like that, what would it look like?

 

But, if you've never been involved in something like a hook-up or binge drinking culture, and most of your friends haven't, you might not have many of those experiences to think of either.  For any individual, including the guy in the article, a lot will depend I think on the particular population.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Corraleno]

But the story he tells, about the girl and the drinking and her experience... I've seen this so many times.  Even if he made that particular story up for the purposes of the article, it's a true story.  It does happen that way.

 

No one is arguing that the scenario he describes never happens. The problem is claiming that that scenario is representative of "90+%" of rapes. The problem is asserting that if the "victims" would just stop getting drunk and sleeping around, it would eliminate virtually all sexual assault except for the tiny handful of "true" rapes that involve strangers dragging sober women into the bushes.  

 

I understand why people would want to believe this anonymous, alleged cop's account, because it suggests that if we just teach our daughters not to get drunk, that will reduce their chances of being raped by "90+%." The problem is that it's just. not. true. 

[marbel]

No one is arguing that the scenario he describes never happens. The problem is claiming that that scenario is representative of "90+%" of rapes. The problem is asserting that if the "victims" would just stop getting drunk and sleeping around, it would eliminate virtually all sexual assault except for the tiny handful of "true" rapes that involve strangers dragging sober women into the bushes.  

 

I understand why people would want to believe this anonymous, alleged cop's account, because it suggests that if we just teach our daughters not to get drunk, that will reduce their chances of being raped by "90+%." The problem is that it's just. not. true. 

 

I get you.   I agree. 

 

I do get a feeling during these conversations sometimes, that people think the scenario never happens, that it's some fake narrative promulgated by men.  (I'm not talking about you or even about this thread.) 

 

ETA: (trying to do too many things at once) - if people come to the conclusion that the writer is a fake, then his entire message may be seen as fake too, kwim?

Edited June 16, 2016 by marbel

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'd bet men are less likely to show up at the ER for alchohol related issues, just because their tolerance tends to be higher.  As far as sexual assault, they might be less likely to tell if it happened, or less likely to think it was assault.  The girl, a friend of his (and a nice person, actually) propositioned him earlier in the night.  They had hooked up before. He said no, but after he went back, he woke up to find her on top of him and they were having unprotected sex.  He had been asleep for a while, and she didn't come back with him - she snuck into the room later.

 

I had a male friend in the army who was, by all normal standards, raped.  He really didn't at all consider it that way though - I suggested to him that it could be looked at that way, and he just didn't feel that way about it.  He was annoyed, because he felt she had been thoughtless, and because she gave him an STI, but he really didn't feel assaulted, more like someone whose friend had borrowed his car without asking and got a flat tire.

 

My sense is that might be a fairly common response among men.  And guys I know who were uncomfortable with things women said or did IME tended not to want to talk about it.

 

Yeah stuff definitely seems to be interpreted differently when it's a man vs woman thing.  Not entirely related, but I was watching America's Got Talent the other day and one of the acts called Simon onto the stage.  She basically danced in a sexual manner around him while he was sitting on a chair.  It was silly and weird and that felt stupid enough, but then she planted a big wet kiss on his mouth after that.  OMG can you imagine if this were a woman sitting in the chair and a guy doing that?  I did not get the impression Simon was happy about it, but I bet he wouldn't press sexual harassment charges.  I felt like it was going too far.

[poppy]

I think if you look at people's comments, it is because what he is saying resonates with their experience.

 

The vast majority of people I know who have had what I would call "bad sexual experiences" have had them under those kinds of conditions.  That is, they felt there was something off, or possibly coerced, or that they didn't remember or would not under normal circumstances have been involved with, or that someone took advantage of them.

 

If I were to say people I know who have been sexually assaulted in a way that could be taken to trial, that would not be true, at all, but that seems to me to kind of be the point.

 

I saw a whole lot of positive response to this article in the other thread, but not from posters who seemed to have any experience with drinking in college or participating in the "hook up culture".  I think it resonates with a lot of people's assumptions. But experience..... I don't know.

 

I too know of people who have had bad sexual experiences in that type of environment. I've never heard of any of them going so far as to contacting a detective.  So to hear that women commonly have regrets, THEN contact police, is what doesn't ring true to me.  

 

I also know of one outright rape case.  She didn't contact police either. (Despite thinking she was drugged and despite getting pregnant / having the baby / giving it up for adoption).    So to hear this writer say that women routinely go to the police having no clue life isn't a Disney movie, having no idea about the difficulties of a rape charge, not even really understanding the definition of "rape" in some cases-- again, just doesn't ring true.

[Paige]

 So to hear this writer say that women routinely go to the police having no clue life isn't a Disney movie, having no idea about the difficulties of a rape charge, not even really understanding the definition of "rape" in some cases-- again, just doesn't ring true.

 

And it's insulting.

[swimmermom3]

More than half of female undergraduates who reported being raped said they were raped by force — held down, hit, or threatened with a weapon. The claim that "90+%" of sexual assault is just drunk girls creating "opportunities" for men to rape them is an ugly, dangerous, victim-blaming lie.

 

What disturbs me with this "cop" and and the judge in the Brock Turner case is that they both feel above the law in handling sexual assault cases.

 

There were many advocates on the other threads who felt that our legal system worked fine and that women who experienced "rape-rape" needed to work through it, no matter how miserable or damaging the experience is. This way, no innocent man will go punished and of course, few guilty men will go punished.

 

I agree to a certain extent,especially when it comes to college campuses dealing with assault instead of going through the proper legal channels.  But when I read articles like this one, where in a way the "cop" has made himself the judge and jury before any charges are even brought (he influences the process) and Judge Persky decides that he believes Turner had consent and that the jury's verdict is pointless, that maybe our great American legal system doesn't really exist when it comes to sexual assault cases.

 

These men are very much a part of the problem.

 

[Corraleno]

Here's a horrific example of what happens when police believe that women often lie about sexual assault and therefore decide to appoint themselves judge and jury. If you don't want to read the lengthy article, here's a summary:

A 19 year old woman was raped by her BIL, who claimed it was consensual. Police grilled her about why she hadn't fought him off — even saying things like "why didn't you hold your arms down when he took off your skirt?" — despite the fact that he had a gun and had her trapped in a basement. They insisted she admit that the sex was consensual, and used the fact that she had not wanted to report the rape to police as "proof" that she was not really raped. She and her sister (the rapist's wife) were immediately charged with filing a false report. The rapist, who was a suspect in the previous murders of an ex-girlfiend and his mother, was given unsupervised visitation with his 1-yr-old son. On one of those visits, the baby died. The rapist, who had taken out multiple life insurance policies on the child shortly before he died, has been charged with murder. The woman who was raped says her life was destroyed, not only by the rape, but by the way the police handled it.

 

The police who did this to her are totally unrepentant. The two main offenders have been promoted. The chief of police admitted that "mistakes were made," but said that police have to be skeptical of rape reports because lots of women file false reports. He said that the detectives who filed charges against the victim and her sister probably should have investigated her claims further, but they did nothing wrong because it's a "judgment call" whether the victim is telling the truth. He said he personally didn't think charges should have been filed against them, but that was just a "personal opinion."

 

This is why perpetuating the narrative that only a tiny percentage of reported sexual assaults are "real rapes," and that most are just girls with regrets, is so dangerous. When the people who are supposed to be objectively investigating these reports start with the assumption that it's more than likely the woman was not really raped, victims end up being raped all over again by the people who are supposed to protect them.

 

[Bluegoat]

I saw a whole lot of positive response to this article in the other thread, but not from posters who seemed to have any experience with drinking in college or participating in the "hook up culture".  I think it resonates with a lot of people's assumptions. But experience..... I don't know.

 

I too know of people who have had bad sexual experiences in that type of environment. I've never heard of any of them going so far as to contacting a detective.  So to hear that women commonly have regrets, THEN contact police, is what doesn't ring true to me.  

 

I also know of one outright rape case.  She didn't contact police either. (Despite thinking she was drugged and despite getting pregnant / having the baby / giving it up for adoption).    So to hear this writer say that women routinely go to the police having no clue life isn't a Disney movie, having no idea about the difficulties of a rape charge, not even really understanding the definition of "rape" in some cases-- again, just doesn't ring true.

 

It sounded to me like most of the people he was dealing with were really young people either on a university campus or the bar scene.  I wasn't sure from what he said if he was really in the picture because they had made a complaint, or someone at the hospital had called him, or what.  I know I once had a conversation with a policeman whos beat was a suburban area who told me that a significant amount of what he did wasn't really about responding to something that would be charged or where there was even a clear crime - it was situations that got a bit out of control, often domestic stuff between couples or roommates or at parties, and what he did was calm things down and help sort things out, tell people what their options were and what the outcomes might be.  Most of it never went beyond that. 

 

I can see if someone was getting called to a lot of parties or clubs, they might be doing similar kinds of things.

 

I do think that a lot of people are actually unsure what the legal definition of rape is, or certain things around it.  Or, where I live, there is no rape charge, just different sexual assault charges, but a lot of people don't know that there can be a charge without penetration, or that a women can be charged.  Quite a few people I have talked to are unsure how incapacitated someone needs to be with alchohol for it to be assault, sometimes they seem to assume it is the same as for drunk driving, or they don't know how to fit memory loss into the picture. 

 

And quite a lot, even if they understand the legal definition, are unclear about what is required to prove it in a court - maybe especially younger people with less experience who just haven't thought much about it. 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

More than half of female undergraduates who reported being raped said they were raped by force — held down, hit, or threatened with a weapon. The claim that "90+%" of sexual assault is just drunk girls creating "opportunities" for men to rape them is an ugly, dangerous, victim-blaming lie.

I think you might be mixing statistics and attributing statements to the officer that he never made by reading into his words. Cops compartmentalize by chargeable offense. The words "sexual assault" include many types of sexual assaults from groping to attempted rape. Actual rape is legally referred to as rape. If you read the sex offender databases, you will notice range of terminology used. When you look up rape statistics, you are getting results for convicted rape, not lesser charges for other sexual assaults. Many times rape charges get reduced to "unlawful sexual penetration" or "sodomy" or "sexual abuse" or "sexual assault" which will not be reported as rape in the statistics we can access, even when what the victim experienced was actual rape.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I think you might be mixing statistics and attributing statements to the officer that he never made by reading into his words. Cops compartmentalize by chargeable offense. The words "sexual assault" include many types of sexual assaults from groping to attempted rape. Actual rape is legally referred to as rape. If you read the sex offender databases, you will notice range of terminology used. When you look up rape statistics, you are getting results for convicted rape, not lesser charges for other sexual assaults. Many times rape charges get reduced to "unlawful sexual penetration" or "sodomy" or "sexual abuse" or "sexual assault" which will not be reported as rape in the statistics we can access, even when what the victim experienced was actual rape.

 

Rape has a wider definition in some states than others.

 

Regardless, the claims made by this "cop" are not supported by any data on rape or sexual assault.  His little pretend scenario makes it pretty clear what direction he is coming from, and it has nothing to do with compartmentalizing by chargeable offense.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Rape has a wider definition in some states than others.

 

Regardless, the claims made by this "cop" are not supported by any data on rape or sexual assault.  His little pretend scenario makes it pretty clear what direction he is coming from, and it has nothing to do with compartmentalizing by chargeable offense.

 

That is true. States will vary on how expansive the definition for rape is. Statutory rape and rape by force are both technically rape, but are very different in action. Thankfully statutory rape is not reported the same way as forced rape which usually is reported by degrees.

 

As to your opinion regarding the officers anecdotal depiction, you are entitled to your doubts, but the fact is he was citing 90%+ of "sexual assaults" in his writing and not 90%+ of "rapes" which is what many of the people on this thread seem to believe. The difference between these terms is very important for statistical referencing.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

That is true. States will vary on how expansive the definition for rape is. Statutory rape and rape by force are both technically rape, but are very different in action. Thankfully statutory rape is not reported the same way as forced rape which usually is reported by degrees.

 

As to your opinion regarding the officers anecdotal depiction, you are entitled to your doubts, but the fact is he was citing 90%+ of "sexual assaults" in his writing and not 90%+ of "rapes" which is what many of the people on this thread seem to believe. The difference between these terms is very important for statistical referencing.

 

1.) More than 10% of sexual assaults would be rapes.  Therefore his number is still faulty.

 

2.) He also writes:

"Section wide, we probably average less than ten of those “nightmare†rapes a year in a city of 300,000 people. The rest of them, the overwhelming rest of them, are acquaintance rapes. And alcohol is at the bottom of the vast majority of those."

 

When that statement is combined with his example of a typical "sexual assault", it seems extremely unlikely that the 90% number is anything more than a figment of the writer's imagination.

 

I understand that some want to believe that what he was written just shows that rape isn't an issue and most of rapes are really just because Slutty McSluts are getting drunk and slutting around, but there simply is no evidence that is true.

[TranquilMind]

You are missing the point.  Here are his exact words:

"It doesn’t take much proof for me to arrest you, but when it comes to sexual offenses, I’ve always felt I had a duty to make sure I went beyond mere probable cause before I charged."

 

Police who investigate sexual assault allegations do not levy charges.  They do an investigation, which is forwarded to the office of the prosecutor, who then determines if the suspect can be charged.

 

The phrasing this "cop" uses is not indicative of someone with actual experience.

 

No, but they make arrests and they make some preliminary determination if some possible sufficient evidence exists to do so. 

 

Maybe that is what he meant by this. 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

No, but they make arrests and they make some preliminary determination if some possible sufficient evidence exists to do so. 

 

Maybe that is what he meant by this. 

 

 

Even when an arrest is made, a charge has not been levied.  An arrest report would be filed, and the prosecutor's office would determine what charges, if any, would be made.

 

When investigating a crime like sexual assault, the more typical scenario would be that report would be filed by the investigator(s), and an arrest warrant would be issued if the prosecutor believed there was enough probable cause to move forward.

 

A real cop would understand this difference.

[Paige]

 

2.) He also writes:

"Section wide, we probably average less than ten of those “nightmare†rapes a year in a city of 300,000 people. The rest of them, the overwhelming rest of them, are acquaintance rapes. And alcohol is at the bottom of the vast majority of those."

 

 

 

Also, this is his perspective. Perhaps the victims have a different understanding of what happened to them. As seen in the PP- A woman can say she was raped, and her experience may be that there was no consent, and she may feel she was not drunk, but with the bias of this police officer, he may still count her experience as part of the 90% her fault, hook up culture false rape he's talking about.

 

And acquaintance rape is still "nightmare rape." WTF?!

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Also, this is his perspective. Perhaps the victims have a different understanding of what happened to them. As seen in the PP- A woman can say she was raped, and her experience may be that there was no consent, and she may feel she was not drunk, but with the bias of this police officer, he may still count her experience as part of the 90% her fault, hook up culture false rape he's talking about.

 

And acquaintance rape is still "nightmare rape." WTF?!

 

You just don't get it.  Stranger rape is real - sometimes.  Acquaintance rape is just a slut changing her mind.  /sarcasm

 

And people wonder why victims dread going to the police.  And why some of us fight so hard against victim blaming.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

 

I understand that some want to believe that what he was written just shows that rape isn't an issue and most of rapes are really just because Slutty McSluts are getting drunk and slutting around, but there simply is no evidence that is true.

 

I don't think that's what people want to believe at all. I think people want to have discourse around the subject of rape and address all the factors that simply cannot be ignored in any meaningful or thoughtful dialogue. We can't ignore the fact that so many reported sexual assaults and rapes are taking place under circumstances where alcohol, particularly binge drinking were factors leading up to the assault. We also cannot discount the fact that many rapes occur within domestic partnerships (many of which go unreported) and these often occur in homes where the perpetrator is an alcoholic. Alcohol and inebriation are significant social issues that go hand in hand with many felony crimes, not just sexual assaults and rapes. Homelessness is a huge problem where I come from and alcohol and drug abuse along with mental illness are factors that cannot be ignored when discussing that issue. I would assume that people who bring up alcohol and drug abuse and mental illness in a discussion about the homeless want to address the broad topic from many angles because it is a very complex subject. I wouldn't assume that they have it out for homeless people and think of them as nothing more than worthless drunks and druggies or weirdos. Rape is a complex subject and there are a lot of factors that are part and parcel of any discussion on the topic. Simply stating these factors as such does not mean that the issue is being swept under the rug.

[TranquilMind]

I don't think that's what people want to believe at all. I think people want to have discourse around the subject of rape and address all the factors that simply cannot be ignored in any meaningful or thoughtful dialogue. We can't ignore the fact that so many reported sexual assaults and rapes are taking place under circumstances where alcohol, particularly binge drinking were factors leading up to the assault. We also cannot discount the fact that many rapes occur within domestic partnerships (many of which go unreported) and these often occur in homes where the perpetrator is an alcoholic. Alcohol and inebriation are significant social issues that go hand in hand with many felony crimes, not just sexual assaults and rapes. Homelessness is a huge problem where I come from and alcohol and drug abuse along with mental illness are factors that cannot be ignored when discussing that issue. I would assume that people who bring up alcohol and drug abuse and mental illness in a discussion about the homeless want to address the broad topic from many angles because it is a very complex subject. I wouldn't assume that they have it out for homeless people and think of them as nothing more than worthless drunks and druggies or weirdos. Rape is a complex subject and there are a lot of factors that are part and parcel of any discussion on the topic. Simply stating these factors as such does not mean that the issue is being swept under the rug.

 

Yes, this, exactly.

 

There are just issues that go together frequently, but certainly not always.

 

[Greta]

 

I suppose what I would ask is what if you didn't worry about defining these experiences as rapes?  What I mean is, what he is describing is not necessarily legally rape at all.  Would you call something like that rape, or would your friends? Or would they be inclined to wonder? If they wouldn't, then they would not really be counted in the assault experiences you are thinking of, people would call them something else, or nothing.  If you included things like that, what would it look like?

 

 

 

Yeah, but that's kind of the point, isn't it?  Those kinds of experiences don't often get labelled as rape, and even less often reported as rape.  Very, very rarely, and yet he's making it sound like it's the norm, the most common type of rape that get's reported.  That's why I'm saying that this "article" is nothing but a misogynistic stereotype.  

 

 

 

But, if you've never been involved in something like a hook-up or binge drinking culture, and most of your friends haven't, you might not have many of those experiences to think of either.  For any individual, including the guy in the article, a lot will depend I think on the particular population.

 

 

I know that my sampling of the population is biased, but my sampling more closely aligns with what the research shows.  He doesn't seem to realize that his sampling is biased (assuming it's not completely imaginary), so he makes ridiculous claims like eliminate binge drinking and "you would eliminate practically all reported sexual assaults in this country. Eighty percent of them at least would disappear because you would eliminate the victim side of the crime triangle."  That's a load of crap.  

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't think that's what people want to believe at all. I think people want to have discourse around the subject of rape and address all the factors that simply cannot be ignored in any meaningful or thoughtful dialogue. We can't ignore the fact that so many reported sexual assaults and rapes are taking place under circumstances where alcohol, particularly binge drinking were factors leading up to the assault. We also cannot discount the fact that many rapes occur within domestic partnerships (many of which go unreported) and these often occur in homes where the perpetrator is an alcoholic. Alcohol and inebriation are significant social issues that go hand in hand with many felony crimes, not just sexual assaults and rapes. Homelessness is a huge problem where I come from and alcohol and drug abuse along with mental illness are factors that cannot be ignored when discussing that issue. I would assume that people who bring up alcohol and drug abuse and mental illness in a discussion about the homeless want to address the broad topic from many angles because it is a very complex subject. I wouldn't assume that they have it out for homeless people and think of them as nothing more than worthless drunks and druggies or weirdos. Rape is a complex subject and there are a lot of factors that are part and parcel of any discussion on the topic. Simply stating these factors as such does not mean that the issue is being swept under the rug.

 

I have seen no evidence that a majority of sexual assaults are a result of binge drinking.  It is a stretch to blame the majority on alcohol, as having a drink /= binge drinking or alcohol being the cause.  The focus on "hook up" culture goes with the claim that many sexual assault reports are due to "regret", for which again there is no evidence of that being true.

 

In addition, even if a woman is drinking, she shouldn't be raped.

[TranquilMind]

Oh, I totally get what you are saying. I am not sure how much credence to give this story, but I think as I stated in the other thread, his comment about these girls basically roofieing themselves between the depression meds and the alcohol, really gave me a pause for thought.

 

Actually, it's too terrifying to think about. My dd is so acutely aware of the affects of alcohol and her meds.

 

 

You know, I hope all kids are!  Honestly, I didn't know one single person on any medication in my high school years.  Not even a diabetic.  Oops- I take it back, there was a cousin who was on some sort of calming medication in the 60's.  That kid was a tornado.  I've never seen anything like it before or since. 

 

Today, every other kid is on some kind of medication.  A huge chunk of some orientation sessions I attended were devoted to how meds had to be logged in and all these special forms (at a gifted high school, not a university).  Wow...like a LOT of time was devoted to this. 

So I hope every kid who is taking something is acutely aware that bad reactions can occur.  It isn't even only from medications.  Some HERBS can cause bad reactions! 

[Greta]

Here's a horrific example of what happens when police believe that women often lie about sexual assault and therefore decide to appoint themselves judge and jury. If you don't want to read the lengthy article, here's a summary:

 

 

I don't know if I can bring myself to read the article, because the summary was gut-wrenching enough.  But I thank you for sharing it, because these stories need to be shared.  When I was young and naive, I always thought that if I were raped, calling the police would be the absolute first thing I would do, and I didn't understand why the statistics showed that so many women never reported.  Now, after a couple of decades of hearing horror stories like this one, I completely understand why most victims chose not to report.   :(

[Corraleno]

I think you might be mixing statistics and attributing statements to the officer that he never made by reading into his words. Cops compartmentalize by chargeable offense. The words "sexual assault" include many types of sexual assaults from groping to attempted rape. Actual rape is legally referred to as rape. If you read the sex offender databases, you will notice range of terminology used. When you look up rape statistics, you are getting results for convicted rape, not lesser charges for other sexual assaults. Many times rape charges get reduced to "unlawful sexual penetration" or "sodomy" or "sexual abuse" or "sexual assault" which will not be reported as rape in the statistics we can access, even when what the victim experienced was actual rape.

 

Not true. Twenty-five states and D.C. do not use the word "rape" at all in their criminal statutes — even forcible PIV is categorized as sexual assault. And in states that do use the word rape, the legal definition varies widely. In CA, only forcible PIV counts as rape — anal or oral rape, or penetration with anything other than a penis is sexual assault, not rape. In some states "unlawful sexual penetration" is the legal definition of rape — that is what Brock Turner was convicted of.

 

The alleged cop who wrote the anonymous letter specifically says he is referring to the hundreds of cases where he "responded to the hospital to investigate a report of sexual assault." Do women normally go to the Emergency Room to report that some guy groped them or kissed them? He says, explicitly, that of the hundreds of times he went to the hospital to investigate a report of rape, fewer than 10 — out of hundreds— were actual "rape-rapes," and the rest were the result of girls drinking: "Period. Full stop." So 90+% of women who go to the hospital to report they were raped are just drunk girls who really have no memory of whether they consented or not? 

 

The statistics that I cited, from the 2015 AAU study, refer to "sexual penetration (oral, anal or vaginal) by force or incapacitation" — that is the FBI's definition of rape. According to that definition, 1 in 10 female undergraduates report having been raped. Not groped or kissed or manhandled against their will. Not sexually penetrated because they were "coerced" or did not give "affirmative consent." Actually, sexually penetrated, against their will, either by force or when they were unconscious or too incapacitated to resist. More than half of those rapes — 1 in 20 women — say they were raped by force.

 

And yet, for some bizarre reason, in this "cop's" college town, the only women who go to the ER are the ones where the girl doesn't remember anything and isn't even sure she was raped?

[TranquilMind]

I have seen no evidence that a majority of sexual assaults are a result of binge drinking.  It is a stretch to blame the majority on alcohol, as having a drink /= binge drinking or alcohol being the cause.  The focus on "hook up" culture goes with the claim that many sexual assault reports are due to "regret", for which again there is no evidence of that being true.

 

In addition, even if a woman is drinking, she shouldn't be raped.

 

Straw man Fallacy.  No one argues that she should.

 

But it is true that undertaking certain actions do increase your potential of becoming a victim, and drinking is one of several of those actions.