Credit hour juggling and general "freshman" class?

[hopskipjump]

Three or more new questions... :D

 

1) If you've already had a college freshman and have BTDT, how many credit hours were they able to juggle successfully? DD and I have been going over options for her schedule - finally found a happy mix of classes that she was happy with - but it's 17 credit hours.

 

For reference, she's taken AP-level English, Psychology, Calculus, Physics, etc - but isn't using any AP credits. She wants to take the first-level, basic class for each of those (looks like this college uses the same Bio I book she used for AP Biology and the same Physics book she just used for Physics! Yay for relatively "easy" classes hopefully!!).

 

English Comp (3)

honors Calculus I (4)

honors Psychology (3)

Biology I (4)

one of the classes required for her major (looks like a fairly easy class) (3)

 

Neither of us have any reference points and can't quite figure out if this is too much or not?  She'll be talking to the academic advisor, of course, but from reading here, I know that an academic advisor can have zero idea of what's going on...

 

She's an athlete, so will also for the first-time-ever, be juggling very early morning practices in addition to school. (she will also be asking these types of questions to girls on the team already... she just wants to have a good idea of what she's has in mind before doing so)

 

2) She is sort of building a major within a major - so a lot of her "free" electives are going to be 4 credit classes (Calc, Bio, Physics, Chemistry). None of these are required for her major (but will be required for grad school).

 

Calculus is the wild-card. If her major (and grad school) only require College Algebra and Statistics...... should she take Calc I & 2? She was, at one point, considering adding a Math minor (but decided she doesn't have the time), so she likes math... BUT we are feeling unsure about TIME and imagine that Calc I & II are going to take a lot of time.

 

But... it feels weird to take a "dumbed-down" math course and take College Algebra (even though, admittedly, she IS taking Calc I when she's ready for Calc II... so she's already stepping-down a bit... but knows that she will learn a lot from a new professor about Calculus and doesn't want to jump into the "middle" with Calc II...)

 

3) She's not yet talked to the academic advisor (I think she has an appointment next week), but from communicating with other incoming freshmen, I guess there's some sort of Freshman Seminar class? I think it's a 1 credit hour class, maybe? From the looks of the other kids' schedules, it's three times a week. :mellow:  What is this class usually about?? We made up her mock schedule before realizing this was a real thing she needs to take. :huh:  And THAT would throw her credit-hours to the 18 credit-hour mark - and that (plus this additional 1-hour-plus class three times a week) pushes it into Crazyville, doesn't it?

 

So - dropping a 3-hour course seems the best idea - but she can't drop English and if she drops Psychology, she loses one of the honors classes (she needs to review the requirements for honors college... neither of us can remember how many classes/year she needs to take). That class has an awesome teacher, and I'd hate her to have to drop it.

 

Ideally - she will always want the fall semester to be a heavier load than the spring semester... but I'm not sure how "plannable" that's going to even be?

 

:willy_nilly:

 

4) In the long run, though, if she takes 4-credit-hour courses that aren't "needed" for her major, then eventually she's going to cancel out some of the 3-hour "free electives," right? So, theoretically and mathematically, she would attain the needed number of credits, but have fewer classes to show for it. Right? So, instead of having a nice semester where she can take basket-weaving or ballroom dancing (please, no one be offended... :o ) --> instead, she will be taking Chem I & II for "fun." Am I anticipating this correctly?

 

Is it ALWAYS this kind of juggling act? I'd handed it over to her to figure out - and was wondering why she was having such a struggle. Then we both started sorting through options and I understood her struggle! lol

Edited June 3, 2016 by hopskipjump

[kiana]

It was always a juggle for me because I wanted to take all of the classes.

 

If she has already had and learned AP calc she will be bored witless in college algebra. It would be a complete waste of her time. I would either enroll in calculus or take the AP credit. If she was shaky or struggled dropping back to a simpler class might be a good idea.

 

I think that given as she has already had almost all the classes it ought to be ok, but she should mark the drop deadline on the calendar and 3-4 days in advance calculate how she's doing in every class. A single W from an overeager freshman is totally reasonable.

[mysticmomma]

18 credits for an athlete is too much imo. Especially if it's during her sports semester.

[bettyandbob]

That sounds like a lot of hours for an athlete, but this an individual thing. I had a room mate who overloaded every semester (20 hours) and it was easy for her.

 

I wanted to comment on math. Many universities have two tracks for chemnand physics. One for non science majors and one for science majors. The science major track is calculus based. At some schools if you haven't had calculus you should be concurrently enrolled in it to take physics.

 

You need to know what type of intro chem and physics classes will be accepted for grad school to determine whether calculus is necessary.

[creekland]

Due to what you've said about her having had a couple of the classes already and her being eager to take them, I'd have no problem with her starting with that schedule.  That said, I'd be sure she knew if it ended up being too much to juggle, there's the ability to drop one of them as long as it's before the drop/add time period the school sets.

[Pegasus]

It's a heavy course load, no doubt, but perfectly doable for a student with the drive and time to complete all the work.  I took between 17 and 19 credit hours my freshman year, because that was the standard for engineering students where I went. I didn't know any better and since I didn't yet have any friends, a job, or outside interests, I had the time to complete all the work. 

 

I agree with the PP to go ahead and start with the full load but keep in mind the drop deadline for re-evaluating. Also, even if the course material is familiar, your DD will still need to complete all of the homework, papers, etc.  The courses won't necessarily be easy!

 

Oh, to be fair, my DD just finished her freshman year and is only taking 12 to 14 credits each semester (barely a full-time load). Not because she couldn't handle more courses but because she already had so many dual enrollment credits, this is all she needs to take to finish "on time."

Edited June 3, 2016 by Pegasus

[MorningGlory]

I'm not a btdt. But I do have a son who will be a college freshman next year, so these conversations are fascinating to me! 

 

It seems like a lot to me for an athlete. When she gets her schedule arranged, she will be able to see how long each day actually is. For example, on her biology lab day, she may be getting up at 5 a.m. or so and then going to class after practice and lab later in the afternoon...that makes for a long day...maybe with no lunch break! (depends on how the schedule works out)

 

My son has gone through registration and orientation at his school. He is taking calculus (most likely II...waiting for AP scores), a geology course with lab (honors section), U.S. history, Spanish 1, and an honors forum (1 hr). That makes 15 hours. The freshman seminar class was optional at his school, so he definitely chose to skip that one! Hopefully, it will be optional for your daughter, too. His Mondays and Tuesdays are longish...with the forum and lab. I can't imagine him getting up on those days and practicing for a sport, and he is a driven, morning-type person! But of course, ymmv. 

 

I would also really consider whether the honors section of calculus is necessary (if the calculus remains on the schedule). Definitely check out Rate My Professor and/or talk to other honors students about the honors level math courses at your student's university. Make sure the class is what your daughter is expecting. Your honors program may only require one honors course a semester which could be fulfilled with the psychology course (if there is still a seat available in it). 

 

Be sure to post how your daughter's meeting with the advisor goes! Good luck to her!! 

[Sunshine State Sue]

My 2c:

 

1) Credits - Ds took 17 credits his first semester.  He is also an athlete and his sport spans fall/spring semester.  None of the classes were "easy".  GPA 2.8 at end of semester, but that had at least some to do with learning that video games needed to be much lower priority and has since greatly improved.  I agree with the others to go ahead and try, but be aware of drop deadline.

 

2) Athletes - definitely check with older athletes and the coach.  The coach will have a big picture opinion.  I assume that she prefers a heavier load in fall because her sport is in full swing in the spring.  Is that correct?

 

3) Major - many, many, many students change their major.  Don't think of it as basket weaving vs chemistry.  Think of it as keeping doors open to a wide variety of majors.  It's smart.

[DebbS]

That looks like a heavy schedule even for a non-athlete freshman. There's a lot of energy spent during the freshman year getting used to college life and forming the social bonds that will serve you daughter over the following 4 years.  Once she knows what college is like, she'll be able to better judge her load, but I'd hate to see her have a really difficult time her first semester. I wouldn't take any more than 15 or 16 hours and would make sure that a few of them have light work loads. Even if she knows a subject well, that doesn't change the workload of the course. For example, English comp will still require a certain number of papers.

 

Have you considered taking some of those AP credits? Especially for core and non-major courses? If she can get the AP English comp credit and she's a good writer, why take the college course? Most of the kids who take freshman comp simply do now know how to write a paper.

 

Also, if her major requires statistics, possibly a 3 credit course in that would be a better option than retaking calculus. I don't know how much of a stats background she has, but many kids who get through calc during high school, miss out on many of the discrete math subjects including probability, statistics, graphing, set theory, etc.  Just because a math course isn't calc doesn't mean that it won't build a more functional base of math knowledge. Discrete subjects such as probability and statistics do teach very usable skills. In fact, certain majors will require that students have a strong statistics and/or other discrete math background and calculus isn't going to help build that base of knowledge in any way. What I'm saying here is don't be a calc-snob. Non-calc maths are not necessarily dumbing down maths, yet probably won't stress out somebody who grasps math easily.

 

Here's a link that discusses the problems with the advanced math track on the AOPS site.

https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/articles/discrete-math

[AFwife Claire]

I don't think it looks like that heavy of a schedule, considering she's already had, basically, most of those classes. 

 

My son took chem. (review of high school), calc. 2 (review of community college class that for some reason took a long time to get into the system, so it was too late to get into calc 3), a lit class that dealt with short stories (since he had AP'd out of freshman comp, and it was an easy, fun class) intro to engineering, plus his corps class (he's a cadet) and his ROTC lab.  It looks like a lot for a first semester, but he didn't find it so.  He had a lot of extra physical training and other corps-related stuff that would be somewhat similar in time to playing a sport. 

 

Again, it's only because all those classes are basically review for her that I would say it's okay.  If they were all new, or she was going into the 200 level of the courses, I would say it would be too much for an athlete.

 

But I would still try to get out of at least the basic English stuff (and definitely not go back down to college algebra! How mind-numbingly boring after calc!).

[hopskipjump]

You guys are always so helpful! Thank you! :)

 

I think she's looking at dropping Calc for this semester. IF she decides she does want to take Calc I (or possibly test in to Calc II) later, she can.

 

That will leave her with 14 credit-hours (including the 1-credit Freshman seminar class) - and a little breathing room the first semester to learn the ropes. She is knocking out one major-specific-requirement, and three for-grad-school requirements (Psychology is also a major-specific requirement, and English is a Gen-Ed requirement). So, there will be nothing "extra" with this schedule adding to her workload, just the necessities.

 

Next week, she'll talk with others from the university and get a game-plan set into motion.

 

Phew! :willy_nilly:

 

It was always a juggle for me because I wanted to take all of the classes.

 

Her too!! So many interesting things! :)

 

 

 

That sounds like a lot of hours for an athlete, but this an individual thing. I had a room mate who overloaded every semester (20 hours) and it was easy for her.

I wanted to comment on math. Many universities have two tracks for chem and physics. One for non science majors and one for science majors. The science major track is calculus based. At some schools if you haven't had calculus you should be concurrently enrolled in it to take physics.

Yes! this university has both science-major and non-science major Physics and Chem options.

You need to know what type of intro chem and physics classes will be accepted for grad school to determine whether calculus is necessary.

I will double check that for sure!!! I think dd knows... but I'm not positive.

 

 

MorningGlory:

 

I would also really consider whether the honors section of calculus is necessary (if the calculus remains on the schedule). Definitely check out Rate My Professor and/or talk to other honors students about the honors level math courses at your student's university. Make sure the class is what your daughter is expecting. Your honors program may only require one honors course a semester which could be fulfilled with the psychology course (if there is still a seat available in it). 

 

Rate My Professor is actually what got her into the trouble of wanting the honors Calc and Psychology classes!  :lol:  These teachers are, apparently, fantastic, and their regular sections are already filled. So - it's either wait... or take an unknown (TBT) or lesser-ranked teacher.

 

Be sure to post how your daughter's meeting with the advisor goes! Good luck to her!! Will do!! :thumbup1:

 

 

My 2c:

 

1) Credits - Ds took 17 credits his first semester.  He is also an athlete and his sport spans fall/spring semester.  None of the classes were "easy".  GPA 2.8 at end of semester, but that had at least some to do with learning that video games needed to be much lower priority and has since greatly improved.  I agree with the others to go ahead and try, but be aware of drop deadline.

She can't let her gpa drop that low - she has a combined athletic/academic scholarship, and I'm pretty sure she has to have a 3.0 minimum to sustain the academic (and a 3.5 to remain in the honors college) - AND the average GPA for grad school seems to hover around 3.6 and up with the programs she's currently interested in. :mellow:  I'm worried about her discovering the video-game bug - she's always loved playing ... but we have one game system and it's in the main living/tv area... so she hasn't had unlimited access. I will have to be sure and give her a little pep talk about time management with games (she's planning to buy her own system and set it up in her dorm...)

 

2) Athletes - definitely check with older athletes and the coach.  The coach will have a big picture opinion.  I assume that she prefers a heavier load in fall because her sport is in full swing in the spring.  Is that correct?

Sport spans both seasons - but there is more long-distance traveling in the spring season than the fall.

 

3) Major - many, many, many students change their major.  Don't think of it as basket weaving vs chemistry.  Think of it as keeping doors open to a wide variety of majors.  It's smart.

 

 

That looks like a heavy schedule even for a non-athlete freshman. There's a lot of energy spent during the freshman year getting used to college life and forming the social bonds that will serve you daughter over the following 4 years.  Once she knows what college is like, she'll be able to better judge her load, but I'd hate to see her have a really difficult time her first semester. I wouldn't take any more than 15 or 16 hours and would make sure that a few of them have light work loads. Even if she knows a subject well, that doesn't change the workload of the course. For example, English comp will still require a certain number of papers.

 

Have you considered taking some of those AP credits? Especially for core and non-major courses? If she can get the AP English comp credit and she's a good writer, why take the college course? Most of the kids who take freshman comp simply do now know how to write a paper.

She didn't even TAKE the AP tests for this-year's classes! :D  She was absolutely-set on taking the classes "again." Her decision (one of the few things she was set-in-stone about) - if she's bored, she can see about testing out of some of the classes (this university allows for a certain # of in-house CLEP up until you have received a certain # of credits... so if she wanted to study on her own and CLEP, that would be an option)

 

Also, if her major requires statistics, possibly a 3 credit course in that would be a better option than retaking calculus. I don't know how much of a stats background she has, but many kids who get through calc during high school, miss out on many of the discrete math subjects including probability, statistics, graphing, set theory, etc.  Just because a math course isn't calc doesn't mean that it won't build a more functional base of math knowledge. Discrete subjects such as probability and statistics do teach very usable skills. In fact, certain majors will require that students have a strong statistics and/or other discrete math background and calculus isn't going to help build that base of knowledge in any way. What I'm saying here is don't be a calc-snob. Non-calc maths are not necessarily dumbing down maths, yet probably won't stress out somebody who grasps math easily.

 

The "ideal" Stats teacher's classes are already filled - so she's thinking of taking Statistics next semester. (Some teachers have a great reputation dealing with athletes/missing classes/ etc - and other teachers... don't. So she's hoping to catch as many of the "school spirit!!" teachers as often as she can!

 

Here's a link that discusses the problems with the advanced math track on the AOPS site.

https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/articles/discrete-math

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by hopskipjump

[MysteryJen]

Personally, I think it is too many. Especially since she is adding new practices and travel. Her academic advisor should be the one to go to for these questions. They may have a general set of recommended courses for freshman athletes.

[wapiti]

In fact, certain majors will require that students have a strong statistics and/or other discrete math background and calculus isn't going to help build that base of knowledge in any way.

 

While I agree that discrete math is a good option and I'm in favor of all things AoPS, it isn't exactly true that calc won't help for a major that requires a strong stats background.  A major that requires a strong stats background may require a *real* statistics class, which would be entirely calc-based.  (In OP's case, AP calc might possibly suffice for the prerequisite, depending).

Edited June 4, 2016 by wapiti

[AngieW in Texas]

What I recommended my kids to do was to sign up for 18 hours so they could drop one class in the first two weeks (when drops don't count and won't show up on your transcript). My kids never ended up dropping the class that they had planned on dropping.

 

The biggest load my middle dd ever took was 15 credit hours and she still managed to graduate in just 6 semesters with a double major because of her dual credit.

 

The most time-intensive course my dd had throughout all of college was her Calculus 1A class. She had the option of taking Calculus I as a 1-semester course or as a 2-semester course. She took just the first semester of the 2-semester version. At that point she had changed majors and no longer needed calculus, although she did consider taking 1B just because she liked the teacher so much.

 

Caveats:

1. My kids were on full tuition scholarships, so there wasn't a cost issue.

2. The school where they both attended didn't charge for any courses above 15 credit hours in an attempt to encourage students to take on more credits and graduate on time (but they would not allow anybody to take more than 18).

3. At their school, there was no penalty for dropping a class before the census date (usually the 12th day of classes). My kids usually knew which class they wanted to drop after going to each class once.

4. You have to be very careful to drop before the deadline.

5. The biggest load my middle dd ever took was 15 credit hours and she still managed to graduate in just 6 semesters with a double major because of her dual credit.

[BlsdMama]

Three or more new questions... :D

 

1) If you've already had a college freshman and have BTDT, how many credit hours were they able to juggle successfully? DD and I have been going over options for her schedule - finally found a happy mix of classes that she was happy with - but it's 17 credit hours.

 

For reference, she's taken AP-level English, Psychology, Calculus, Physics, etc - but isn't using any AP credits. She wants to take the first-level, basic class for each of those (looks like this college uses the same Bio I book she used for AP Biology and the same Physics book she just used for Physics! Yay for relatively "easy" classes hopefully!!).

 

English Comp (3)

honors Calculus I (4)

honors Psychology (3)

Biology I (4)

one of the classes required for her major (looks like a fairly easy class) (3)

 

Neither of us have any reference points and can't quite figure out if this is too much or not?  She'll be talking to the academic advisor, of course, but from reading here, I know that an academic advisor can have zero idea of what's going on...

 

She's an athlete, so will also for the first-time-ever, be juggling very early morning practices in addition to school. (she will also be asking these types of questions to girls on the team already... she just wants to have a good idea of what she's has in mind before doing so)

 

2) She is sort of building a major within a major - so a lot of her "free" electives are going to be 4 credit classes (Calc, Bio, Physics, Chemistry). None of these are required for her major (but will be required for grad school).

 

Calculus is the wild-card. If her major (and grad school) only require College Algebra and Statistics...... should she take Calc I & 2? She was, at one point, considering adding a Math minor (but decided she doesn't have the time), so she likes math... BUT we are feeling unsure about TIME and imagine that Calc I & II are going to take a lot of time.

 

But... it feels weird to take a "dumbed-down" math course and take College Algebra (even though, admittedly, she IS taking Calc I when she's ready for Calc II... so she's already stepping-down a bit... but knows that she will learn a lot from a new professor about Calculus and doesn't want to jump into the "middle" with Calc II...)

 

3) She's not yet talked to the academic advisor (I think she has an appointment next week), but from communicating with other incoming freshmen, I guess there's some sort of Freshman Seminar class? I think it's a 1 credit hour class, maybe? From the looks of the other kids' schedules, it's three times a week. :mellow:  What is this class usually about?? We made up her mock schedule before realizing this was a real thing she needs to take. :huh:  And THAT would throw her credit-hours to the 18 credit-hour mark - and that (plus this additional 1-hour-plus class three times a week) pushes it into Crazyville, doesn't it?

 

So - dropping a 3-hour course seems the best idea - but she can't drop English and if she drops Psychology, she loses one of the honors classes (she needs to review the requirements for honors college... neither of us can remember how many classes/year she needs to take). That class has an awesome teacher, and I'd hate her to have to drop it.

 

Ideally - she will always want the fall semester to be a heavier load than the spring semester... but I'm not sure how "plannable" that's going to even be?

 

:willy_nilly:

 

4) In the long run, though, if she takes 4-credit-hour courses that aren't "needed" for her major, then eventually she's going to cancel out some of the 3-hour "free electives," right? So, theoretically and mathematically, she would attain the needed number of credits, but have fewer classes to show for it. Right? So, instead of having a nice semester where she can take basket-weaving or ballroom dancing (please, no one be offended... :o ) --> instead, she will be taking Chem I & II for "fun." Am I anticipating this correctly?

 

Is it ALWAYS this kind of juggling act? I'd handed it over to her to figure out - and was wondering why she was having such a struggle. Then we both started sorting through options and I understood her struggle! lol

 

 

DD took an overload of classes for a total of about 40 (I don't remember specifically, but between freshman year and the summer, she's now made up an entire year) credits her freshman year.  *However* these were repeat/easy classes too - she had already had Latin, she took Latin.  She had had a very rigorous Russian 2, so Russian 3 was not hard.

 

That said, she's cut her credits this year - aiming for 15ish.  She is working approximately 25 hours a week during the school year and her classes have gotten significantly more difficult.  

 

Would we do it again?  Mmm.... I'm not encouraging DS to take 20 hours his freshman year.  In retrospect, despite a successful year, she had a lot of stress.  She was a very at-home homeschooler - with only Russian as her outside class.    But it doesn't sound like yours is.  Does she have strong organizational skills?  Does she spread assignments out or procrastinate?  Does she worry or just "do the next thing?"   I don't think the load you're saying is overly difficult, especially as she has done some of these classes before.  

 

But, yes, so far, it's been a juggling act.  How many classes?  How to mix and match them?  Do I really want to take X class while taking Y class?  We had the same juggle with signing DS up for CC classes this year knowing that Mock will overtake his entire life the second semester but also knowing he must take his math and language at CC and then trying to make the pieces of the puzzle fit together with commuting.