Laura K (NC) Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 My son did really well with Foerster's Algebra I last year. I was not worried about going into Foerster's Algebra II at all. In fact, I didn't even look at any other textbooks, I was so sure that Foerster would work for us. My son's on chapter 4. I do the problems also. But I can't do many of the problems. My husband, an engineer, got his butt kicked by a Foerster problem involving 4 equations and 4 variables. I don't have time to do math 3 hours a day. We have the solutions manual, but that just gives answers. I don't know how to get from the problem to the answer, so the solution manual is only telling me I'm wrong, and nothing else. Does anyone have any advice for me? I'd rather not invest in a math tutor, but I will if that's necessary. Is there an intermediate step between Foerster 1 and Foerster Algebra and Trig? It seems like such a big leap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 We're still in Algebra 1 so I may be off base, but I think most people do Geometry in between Algebra 1 and Algebra 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabanana1992 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 4 equations and 4 unknowns - I would never do by hand - use matrices on the calculator. I know that doesn't help with your overall problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura K (NC) Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 He's almost halfway through the geometry book, since he started it last year. The geometry helped with doing the proofs in this Foerster book, but it's mostly a whole different kind of subject. I must add that the book isn't hard for my son -- as long as he has someone who can explain what's going on. With a good explanation, he finishes a problem faster than I can. When I say that this Foerster book is too hard, I'm saying it's too hard for the teacher -- that is, me. I need to be able to know how to solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Have you looked into the Math Without Borders DVDs? We're using them with Foerster's Algebra 1 and are planning to use them with Algebra 2 also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in AL Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Laura, do you have the TM? I don't know if it would help, but it does suggest which problems to assign. I'm wondering if the problem you're stuck on is one of those challenge type problems that's not suggested for the classroom. The TM also tells you which problems may trouble students and sometimes how to avoid that issue. If you tell me the lesson, I'll look it up for you and tell you if the problems you're stuck on are recommended as an assignment. I haven't used Math Without Borders, but I would purchase it if we get into the same situation (we're on ch 3). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura K (NC) Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 Thanks Michelle. If it's the case that these are "bonus" problems, I'm definitely getting the teacher's manual. Chapter 4-6. He usually does the odds. In this lesson we did 1,3,5,7,9 & 10, 11 & 12. I came to a screeching halt at #13, I could do #14 (I wouldn't even know how to begin to do this on a calculator, with 4 variables and 4 equations). I tried #16 and couldn't get the right answer, my dh tried #15 and got the right answer but filled a full page getting there. I haven't even tried 17 and 18 yet. So in short, in chapter 4-6, are 13, 14, 15, and 16 regular-type problems, or are they the problems for the math geniuses and their math-genius parents? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Eek - you're scaring me! I've been strongly leaning toward using the Math without Borders CDs with Foerster, and I thought I understood the Solutions manual had the problems written out in steps rather than just answers (the back of the alg I book, at least, has the answers to the odd problems - what extra does the Solutions book give, then?) If the Solutions book doesn't have the problems worked out, does the TE? I think I'll really want to have an answer guide with the problems worked! Isn't there something one can get for this?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Draconian Sisterhood peptalk: It's not hard, it's character building! Some longwinded problems (like four equations, four unknowns) are a waste of time to spend an hour on. Like annabanana suggested, using matrices would be preferable. Sorry that I don't have a copy of the text on my shelf or I would try to be more specific. Acquiring the TM may be your best bet. Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa L. in MI Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Those problems (sec 4-6, #13-16) are really involved and time-consuming. They fill at least one sheet of paper each. I'm absolutely not a math person, but I prefer to work these by hand in order to cement the concepts because that is how I best understand and can subsequently help my son. Do you have the tests? I've been looking at these in order to determine what are 'genius' type problems and where to draw the line for my son's assignments. I like the TM, but sometimes the assignment suggestions are really long. I've found some relief in the assignments by not only looking ahead to the tests, but also using various syllabi I've found. This one seems to be the most reasonable: http://liveoakacademy.org/backup/2005/Classes/algebra2/. Sometimes I need more hand-holding than the solutions manual offers when it lists only the answer. Recently I posted a plea for help for steps not included in the solutions manual. And someone kindly responded. :001_smile: HTH, Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura K (NC) Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 The solutions manual has graphs, answers, and not much else. Every problem is answered, and a few explanations are given, but the answers aren't really worked. I looked at the samples of the Math Without Borders videos when I was buying the text. That seemed deadly dull to me -- maybe the sample videos were not a good representation. I'm trying to figure out how much money to throw at my problem now... do I buy that video, wondering if it will work? Do I also buy a Teacher's Manual? Do I also hire a real live tutor once a week? Do I wait until he can get into a real live class, and scrap this whole business of trying to teach him this? I took calculus in college. I'm not really math-minded, but my calculus prof. was a really, really cute TA, and I so wanted to impress him. I remember all the times I used to ask him for help after class, lol. He knew the answers. You know, I just can't be that for my son, lol. My motivation for learning back then was just not the same as my son's. :tongue_smilie: I want to at least be able to be there for him for how to get the answers, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in AL Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Lesson 4-6 is the only lesson I've seen so far that has no recommended assignment~murphy's law. It does recommend to take 2 days to cover the material. Now I'm scared and am going to try to work ahead to see if this is possible for us too. The assignment for 4-7 is give problems 1 & 5 the 1st day, then use more problems the 2nd day, then follow up for a day or two with a problem added to new assignments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in AL Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 The syllabus Lisa listed (Thanks Lisa) doesn't assign this lesson. Maybe it's a bonus section? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura K (NC) Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) Everybody in this thread -- thanks. This is helping. I just found a larger discussion of matrices in the Appendices. And there's a section coming up in 4-7 on matrices as well. This is not something I learned when I was younger. My husband has a linear algebra book that he used toward the end of his college career, and great big matrices are in that book. I also found some nifty 4-equation, 4-variable calculators on the 'net. I'm going to pretend I didn't see them. :) As for today, I'm going to give the boy a day off from algebra, and I'm going to work a few more problems, figure out what I need to throw money at to make this work, and look at some of the other recommendations in this thread. Edited October 1, 2008 by Laura K (NC) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura K (NC) Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 (reference here ... y'all come!) Wow... My son is either going to be grateful for all the knowledge I crammed into his head and the :banghead: we've all been doing, or he's going to accuse me of inhumane torture. That's a good syllabus to look at. And I think I'll order the teacher's edition today to get yet another syllabus point-of-view as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura K (NC) Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 For two days work, I can't see being able to finish more than one problem between 13-16. I have yet to look at the word problems, but I would rather spend time on word problems than formulas that take a page to solve. I told my son he could try 14. Maybe I'll just walk him through that one the white board since I can actually do that one, and leave it at that. This is helpful -- I appreciate your time in checking for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in OH Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I've used this book with two dc so far. I did have to study the material the night before (without working problems), so I could let my brain work on it overnight. I probably spent about 1/2 hour to 45 minutes per day really trying to figure out the text and understanding the worked examples. When I presented material to dd the next day, it seemed to click better. The second time I used this book, not only was my prep time greatly reduced, I was also much better able to figure out which sections were simply tedious, without much important learning going on (perhaps 4 variables, 4 equations fits this description?). I took the engineering calculus series in college, but I'm definitely not a mathy person. I don't have the ability to "just get it". Nevertheless, I found Foerster to be challenging, but doable. Perhaps your dh would have fared better if he'd been reading the lessons on a daily basis up to this point? I always find it difficult to jump in at the middle and figure out a textbook's approach. Could your dh start reading the lessons daily so he would be prepared to be a backup if necessary? I'm afraid I don't know of an intermediate approach that would make this transition easier. IMHO, the math simply gets harder at this point. I farm my kids out after this book. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in AL Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Laura, Hotmath.com has some good, short understandable videos on 3 variable systems and how to solve them. The subscription is $29/yr. To get to the videos go to Videos on the front screen, then choose college math then intermediate algebra. Thanks for the info about matrices in the back. I never would've looked there either. I'll be studying today too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra in FL Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 the Solution Key (soft cover) has step-by-step solutions worked out. HTH, Sandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura K (NC) Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 Is there more than one solutions manual? For example, problem 13 of exercise 4-6 takes a whole page to solve. The solutions manual I have gives the answer thus: {(-1, 1, -2, 3)}. If there's another solutions manual, please share it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura K (NC) Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 If I figure this subject out now, I won't have to do nearly this much work for my younger two. In fact, I will save my son's notebook because he will have correct solutions written out! The same with the other, very time-consuming subjects my oldest is doing this year. I'm looking at the time as an investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa L. in MI Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 http://liveoakacademy.org/backup/2005/Classes/algebra2/assignments/week_06.html. It is included in the Oct 14 and 24 assignments. The other syllabi I have include this section also: *4-6 141 #1-11 odd, 15 *4.6 (pg. 138–142) Linear with 4+vars 4.6: DTQ; 1,4,8,10,11,14,15 FWIW, I've felt like this :banghead: many times. ;) Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa L. in MI Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Looks like the same one I have: ISBN 0-201-25286-4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa L. in MI Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Well so much for posting a link for the syllabus...it doesn't include assignments for the entire text. My apologies. But I do have two more syllabi saved in a Word document if anyone is interested. One of them is from Maverick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) Well, if you would like a good chuckle (or not!! ;) ) Foerster alg 2 is being described as spoon-fed on the K-8 board.:tongue_smilie: (definitely not by me, BTW) Jiminie, Foerster gives me a workout at times in alg 1!!!. ::lol: ETA: I was wondering the same thing about the solutions manual. All of those levels are still packed in our attic. I am pretty sure that I have a solutions manual with actual solutions, not answers. I think I saw the pre-cal book recently, so I will look later on. I am going to do the dreaded change of season cloth swap for my little kids tomorrow, so I'll be scrounging around in the attic anyway. Edited October 1, 2008 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) Looks like the same one I have: ISBN 0-201-25286-4 I found an old thread the other day that listed the ISBN# for the Solutions Manual to the 1994 Foerster's as 0201 861 003, which is different than the number you have... Does anyone have that one and know if the problems are worked step-by-step - or are they the same book just different editions? I could've sworn someone here said just the other day that the Foerster's Solutions Manual had the problems worked... ETA: Never mind, I'm an idiot, just realized y'all are talking about the Alg II book, that one's for Alg/Trig... :blushing: Edited October 1, 2008 by matroyshka I'm an idiot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in OH Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Is there more than one solutions manual? If there's another solutions manual, please share it! I have the softcover solutions manual that you describe. My experience is like yours--most problems are answers only, or at least abbreviated steps. I did not find it particularly helpful if I was having trouble with the logic of the problem. It is certainly not like the detailed Singapore NEM 1 and 2 solutions manuals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan P. Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Laura, I've been poking around the internet and saw this: http://www.algebra-online.com/math-software/cramers-rule-for-4-simultaneou.html . This Algebra Tutor doesn't look too expensive and you could plug in your equations so the "Tutor" helps you find the answer. It also shows the steps it took to solve the problem and why. I don't know if I'd let the student use this, but it could be helpful to you as the teacher. Or you could let the student try a problem and then check it with the Algebra Tutor. I have never used this program, but it might be worth it to investigate it. Foerster is a great program, and many have done well with it. THis might just help to get over those "humps". Otherwise, I would skip the problems and move onto other things. HTH, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan P. Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Oh well, I tried the demo and it said that it can only work up to three simultaneous equations. I guess this might not be too much of a help for you. I do think the Math Without Borders videos have been helpful for us. However, I've only used the Algebra 1 series. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan P. Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Here is a website that shows how to solve these type of simultaneous equation problems: http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.07/s/johan1.html . I'm learning some Algebra 2 at least! Or rather reviving old neurons that harbored these type problems in my fifty year old noggin!! Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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