Help with reading comprehension

[snowbeltmom]

I have a friend whose 2nd grader is struggling in school.  Can you recommend any materials the mom can use with her son?  Here is a summary of what my friend said:

 

He struggles with remembering what he read and has difficulty trying to retell it with a few details.  He has trouble inferring.  He seems to do better when he reads the material aloud.

 

Thanks for any suggestions.

[PeterPan]

Does she suspect anything like ADHD?  You could have mild explanations all the way to more severe, and the likelihood of the "fix" working depends on whether you guess correctly.  A pattern like that would fit with dyslexia, ADHD, CAPD, ASD, and even just vision and executive function problems.  

 

So then you eliminate things and work through the list.  Ped can run an ADHD screening.  Does he have problems with understanding with background noise?  (like at Chipotle)  That would be a huge flag for APD and warrant a screening by an audiologist.  Does he have other behavioral problems, stimming, things he gets stuck on, or social issues?  That plus the inferences problem would then make you want a fuller exploration of the ASD question.  I take both my kids to a developmental optometrist, which you find through COVD.  They can do a normal annual exam (under $100 here) and *screen* for developmental vision problems.  If a dc has developmental vision problems, it will affect their visual processing and glitch up things that use vision, so kids with developmental vision problems will find reading and school work improves with VT.  

 

My guess is no matter what you're seeing EF (executive function) problems.  The thing is, they don't usually occur in isolation.  They're usually part of those other things (ADHD, APD, ASD, etc.).  So EF includes working memory, meta-linguistics, etc.  If he has EF issues and ADHD, that would be a simple explanation for what she's seeing.  If he has ever had speech or language issues, that would make it much more complicated.  

 

For the EF, at least work on working memory with games, digit spans, etc.  Heathermomster has posted metronome work, and you can do that for free, adding in digit spans.  There are workbooks to work on inferences, depending on whether it's occurring just while he's reading or also in life.  I tend to use materials from Super Duper Inc and Great Ideas for Teaching, both of which have good stuff for inferences, but there are also books specifically for *reading* comprehension and inferences.  (Evan Moor, etc.)  If you go to Rainbow Resource, you'll probably pop up stuff.  There are books on teaching reading comprehension that show you how to use strategies.  She can google for them.  Barton has optional comprehension guides that go into comprehension in detail.  I saw a teacher do them with my ds, and afterward I was like wow, duh, why wasn't I doing that?  Comprehension strategies (4sqr, asking questions, making diagrams, tying to previous knowledge, etc.) can improve engagement and attending to details.  They're not a substitute for remediating phonological deficits, pragmatics instruction, etc. etc., but if the dc has ADHD and just needs some help to engage, notice details, turn on his brain, they're going to help.

 

Beyond that, I'd really want some targeted evals to start eliminating things and figure out what's going on.  But I'm pro-evals.  They give you info to target your efforts.  My dd was around that age when I was wondering, and I let someone blow me off on the evals question.  We waited till she was 10+ to start doing evals, and by that time a lot of water was under the bridge.  I'm pro evals and I like 'em early and complete.  Our local university can do a hearing eval and APD screening with the SCAN3 for just $35.  Seriously.  At that price you can afford to eliminate some things, kwim?  And the developmental vision you can address with a screening with a developmental optom as part of a regular vision exam, under $100.  And the rest you can use screenings from the ped, evals by the ps, etc.  

 

I think when someone comes on seeing stuff like this, it's a tip of the iceberg thing.  I would be getting evals.  The only question is which evals and where to start.

Edited April 5, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

http://www.readingrockets.org/helping/target

 

Just quickly, I am linking this from readingrockets.org.

 

In general ----- we don't know from this, if the child is having a problem more with decoding (actually reading the words on the page, in a phonics kind of way), or with comprehension (understanding), or fluency (easily reading).

 

And, there are different strategies for each issue.

 

If the child really reads pretty well, but there are comprehension difficulties (as described), then you would also (to some extent) expect the child to be able to have the same difficulty with listening comprehension with the same passage.

 

If he can listen to a book and do well with inferring and re-telling with details, then it may not be primarily a comprehension issue. Or, it may be, if he is reading well (as far as decoding and fluency) but then having trouble with keeping track of things as he reads.

 

But it is also common for this to be what is seen, and then looking closer, the problem is back with decoding or fluency.

 

So, you do want to kind-of go back to.... does the child have good phonemic awareness (rhyming type of stuff), good decoding (good at sounding out words, knows the phonograms to be able to sound out words, sounds out individual words well ---- for 2nd grade, I think you want to see the child able to decode, as a single word, almost all 2-syllable words...... here, in 2nd grade, kids who have been using context clues instead of being able to sound out all words, can turn out to have some gaps), good fluency (reading well out loud, basically).... and how does the children do with comprehension-type questions when it is all oral (with the child listening).

 

If the child has difficulty with inferring or drawing conclusions or noticing details, and it is something that maybe has been going on a long time, or has been noticeable for a long time but is becoming more noticeable ---- then that may be more of a speech/language kind of issue.

 

My younger son has autism and he has trouble with inferring. There are things out there to help teach kids to infer. But I think it is a dead-end if maybe the problem is more with weak decoding.

 

It is something where you need to see where the problem (or problems) is (are), and target them specifically/individually (to some extent), b/c there is a big difference between what materials you would use and how you would practice for the different areas.

 

Edit: On the surface, the parent is describing a problem with comprehension. But it is common to find out that it looks like a comprehension problem, but really the child does not have the decoding or fluency level to support good comprehension. Other times it is really a problem with comprehension. It is good to separate them out to see!

 

If you have ruled out decoding/fluency (or you haven't ruled them out, but you see that there are also problems with listening comprehension) then you can get more specific into "can the child do this? can the child do this?" to try to target the level/issue within comprehension. But checking on decoding/fluency is important, b/c often that is where the problem is.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Lecka

[Storygirl]

I agree with OhE. Reading comprehension difficulties can be due to a variety of underlying issues and figuring out the root cause will enable him to get the best help.

 

Is he in school? I would suggest the parents consider requesting that he be evaluated for learning disabilities to see if he would meet the criteria for Specific Learning Disability in reading comprehension (which is different than SLD reading). If so, he may get extra help at school. If he is homeschooled, they can still request that the public school evaluate him, though they are likely to get more information through private evaluations.

 

My son has SLD reading comprehension, so I've done quite a bit of reading about it. There are resources out there for educators to use with students who are struggling. They are geared toward classroom teachers but do contain a lot of helpful information about how to teach children to comprehend what they read. The basic idea is that these students need to be explicitly taught skills that come to others naturally and then use them deliberately while they are reading. Strategies include things like asking yourself if you understand, re-reading, scanning headings before reading a passage in a textbook, taking notes, front-loading vocabulary, practicing visualizing while reading, and so on. There are many reading strategies that can be taught, but the student has to learn them and use them consistently.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Strategies-That-Work-Comprehension-Understanding/dp/157110481X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1459860429&sr=8-1&keywords=strategies+that+work

 

http://www.amazon.com/Common-Core-Not-So-Common-Learner-Grades/dp/1452257825/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1459861211&sr=8-1&keywords=common+core+for+the+not+so+common+learner

 

These are books I have found helpful. Don't be put off by the Common Core part of that title -- it has great information.

 

Again, though, these are teacher resources, so they would need to be adapted for home use. But they are helpful for understanding what techniques can be used to improve comprehension. Standard reading comprehension curricula tend to test or evaluate comprehension by giving a passage and then asking questions about it, but this approach doesn't really TEACH comprehension skills. Someone who is really struggling may need to really practice using those strategies that other students use intuitively.

 

With all that said, I really do think knowing what is causing the trouble is the key to figuring out how to tackle it.

 

[Storygirl]

I agree with Lecka, too! Although I will say that DS's comprehension is much, much better with auditory input, compared to when he reads material to himself (though he has no trouble with decoding).

 

I do think with a second grader, making sure that they are decoding well is an important component. If the brain is working super hard just to decode the individual words, it may then be harder to focus on the overall meaning of the passage. Imagine you as an adult reading a difficult passage in a science textbook filled with new and unfamiliar words. You may be able to read the words well, in terms of being able to pronounce them. But you may get to the end of the sentence and not really understand what it meant. So you then may have to re-read to glean the meaning of the material. Or you need to look up the new vocabulary and learn it. Or you may need to read some background material in order to understand the new text.

 

So there are layers of things that need to go well in order to understand the passage. Being able to decode and understand the individual words, connecting the words to their broader meaning by understanding background information, being able to hold the information in your head from the beginning of the paragraph to the end, etc. It's complex.

 

Around the end of second grade, beginning of third grade, books tend to get harder. They have more plot elements, greater character development, nonlinear structure, perhaps more unattributed dialogue, more sophisticated vocabulary, figures of speech, flashbacks and plot twists, and more inference. We've found that DS11 has hit a kind of wall at that level, and it makes sense that around that age is when comprehension issues may become more apparent.

 

You might mention to your friend, just in case there are issues that she has not mentioned to you, that reading comprehension issues can happen with kids who are on the autism spectrum, which Elizabeth referred to in her post. Of course not all kids with reading comprehension trouble have autism, but it might be helpful for your friend to be aware of that, in case she has had any private concerns about her son's development. Kids on the spectrum (or who have issues that put them close to the spectrum) often have trouble with inference.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

Fwiw, I'll point out that funky things happen that you don't realize without detailed testing.  For instance, my ds, when given detailed language testing (CELF5), had 99th percentile vocab and 28th percentile single sentence comprehension.  Clearly gifted and clearly not able to comprehend what he was reading!  But if you only knew him by his speech and that 99th percentile vocabulary, you never would have realized he was having such serious comprehension issues.  His comprehension for paragraphs improved to the 85th percentile, reflecting his giftedness and his ability to piece things together when given more data.  So the signs that we had of single sentence comprehension were behavioral, and we mostly just assumed he didn't WANT to do them or that he was slow or something, kwim?  We didn't understand the significant impairment going on, with close to 2 standard deviations of discrepancy between his top and bottom scores.

 

It always goes back to testing and knowing what you're dealing with. You just don't know if you have a little issue or a big issue or what till you test.

Edited April 5, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Storygirl]

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Comprehension-Success-Workbooks-Language/dp/0375430008/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1459863320&sr=8-2&keywords=sylvan+third+grade+reading

 

Here is another resource. What I like about this one is that it is a workbook, which makes it easier to implement at home. But the comprehension skills books start at the third grade level, not second, so it might be a little hard. However, it teaches strategies. The very important thing to remember, if your friend uses something like this, though, is that just completing the workbook will not ensure that the skills are learned and being applied to other reading. She would need to use the workbook as a jumping off point -- a way to introduce reading strategies that she would then practice consistently with her son across all of his reading until he really could apply the strategy himself.

 

If a student isn't able to consistently apply the reading strategy himself to any reading, the strategy does no good. He has to be able to use it for it to work. And to be able to use it in his own reading, he is likely to need a lot of practice.

 

I have the fourth grade workbook, and I'm planning to use it with my son over the summer (he is enrolled in school, so it's hard to do it now on top of his homework). I think it looks good, but it is only a tool, not a solution.

[Storygirl]

Yes, tell your friend that if she pursues testing that she should make sure to request that they run the CELF. DS11 has had many, many tests, but not that one! I really wish we had that information.

 

Actually, my other son, DS10, is having the CELF test tomorrow morning (for a different issue). I'm looking forward to hearing his results. And I may follow up to get DS11 screened as well.

[geodob]

You wrote that: 'He seems to do better when he reads the material aloud.'

 

But the ability to read silently, is an acquired skill. That is typically basically developed, by around the age of 8 to 9.

Which basically involves the ability to imagine the sound and motor production of words, as we read.

So that allowing more time to transition from reading aloud, to reading silently.  Could be helpful.

 

[Crimson Wife]

Fwiw, I'll point out that funky things happen that you don't realize without detailed testing.  For instance, my ds, when given detailed language testing (CELF5), had 99th percentile vocab and 28th percentile single sentence comprehension.  Clearly gifted and clearly not able to comprehend what he was reading!  But if you only knew him by his speech and that 99th percentile vocabulary, you never would have realized he was having such serious comprehension issues.  His comprehension for paragraphs improved to the 85th percentile, reflecting his giftedness and his ability to piece things together when given more data.  So the signs that we had of single sentence comprehension were behavioral, and we mostly just assumed he didn't WANT to do them or that he was slow or something, kwim?  We didn't understand the significant impairment going on, with close to 2 standard deviations of discrepancy between his top and bottom scores.

 

It always goes back to testing and knowing what you're dealing with. You just don't know if you have a little issue or a big issue or what till you test.

 

My daughter had a similar pattern on the CELF of vocabulary being much higher than paragraph comprehension and single sentence comprehension being by far the lowest. The percentiles are very different but the overall pattern of discrepancies holds.

 

In my daughter's case, there was an undetected high frequency hearing loss complicating things. I would definitely recommend any child experiencing reading problems have a full audiology exam if there hasn't been one in the past 12 months (even if the child has previously had normal ones). My daughter figured out how to lip-read to fill in the gaps as her hearing deteriorated so she never acted like she had trouble hearing. But she couldn't use that strategy with decoding phonics primers. She is doing much better with her reading since she got hearing aids and has been working through the Lindamood-Bell LiPS program.

[snowbeltmom]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply!  I don't have time to read the responses in detail right now, but will return later tonight!

 

Thanks again for all your help!  

[snowbeltmom]

Thank you all so much for your replies.  My friend is in the process of getting her son evaluated.  He attends public school, and she is hoping to have some answers and a plan in place before summer vacation begins so she will have the entire summer to work with him. 

[PeterPan]

Unless the school runs IQ, CTOPP, and the CELF, don't expect much.  They'll say dyslexia is ADHD.  They'll run something other than an actual WISC for IQ so they can avoid looking at discrepancy.  On and on.  If she hasn't signed the consent to eval forms yet, encourage her to make sure those tests are agreed to.  Otherwise she'll need private evals.  And if she has the funds for private evals, she would do well to make the appt for private evals and cancel if the ps happens to do a thorough job.  The ps just vary, with some doing an AMAZING job and some really not.  If she doesn't have funds for private evals and the ps does a hack job, she has the legal right to dispute and request an independent evaluation.  It won't be pretty and will drag it out, but the option is there.  

 

That's the thing.  Any private evals will *typically* have a wait.  So if she says oh I'll wait till May when I get results, then schedule private, she could be looking at appts in August.  That's why I'm saying look now, schedule now, and cancel if you don't need.

Edited April 6, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

She really needs to request evals in writing.

 

I had it drag on and on, with talking to the teacher, the teacher bringing it up at a meeting, at the meeting the teacher getting nixed (kind-of.... it wouldn't sound like a big deal in the meeting, though the teacher would agree with me, kind-of).

 

When you request in writing, it is different than talking to the teacher. It goes into a process where they have to respond within a certain amount of time.

 

It is something I wish I had realized earlier! I thought I was "doing the process" by talking to the teacher, but really I wasn't doing the process until I requested in writing.

 

If private evaluations are a good option for your friend, I think that is good.

 

If they are really not a good option but she is desperate ---- maybe she could write a letter.

 

If you look in any books or websites about IEPs or IDEA, then you can see sample letters.

 

They are not hard, just a letter saying you have noticed x and y problems and would like your child to be evaluated.

[kbutton]

You wrote that: 'He seems to do better when he reads the material aloud.'

 

But the ability to read silently, is an acquired skill. That is typically basically developed, by around the age of 8 to 9.

Which basically involves the ability to imagine the sound and motor production of words, as we read.

So that allowing more time to transition from reading aloud, to reading silently.  Could be helpful.

 

This whole thread is great, but I wanted to quote this because I think it's a really big deal for some kids. My kids learned to read silently quite early, but when my older son was still in school, he had classmates that took a lot longer to really read well silently. 

 

More trouble with silent reading than listening can mean a lot of things, as people mentioned earlier, but I would think that it's very likely skills are not meshing together. It could be throughput with the mental processes, or a problem with generalizing and individual skill and applying it to a new context. 

 

Your friend can look for patterns and try different kinds of text and levels of text with him. When my son was in school, he had some really wonky reading comprehension booklets--like, my parents were visiting, and we had four adults trying to answer a question, and we couldn't agree on the answer. Aside from some pretty poor passages/questions, we noticed that he had more trouble with fiction than nonfiction in spite of the fact that he read fiction voraciously. This turned out to be an ASD thing with social language and theory of mind (we didn't have a diagnosis at the time, so we realized this later). He also lags a bit in making inferences. 

 

Critical Thinking Company has some Inference Jones books. I recommend the books over the software because the software will let them continue, and if you are remediating things, you want to be able to stop and discuss the errors and be sure the child understands the errors. It's probably a bit out of reach at this age. It starts with 3rd grade, but it would be good for future use.

 

Otherwise, listen to what everyone else said. Be sure to get eyes checked and consider a visit to a COVD optometrist who will look deeper at eye movement and function to see how well the brain and eyes are working together.

[ElizabethB]

I have a bunch of reading tests that might help, based on the scores and problem areas I have my students work on different things.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html

 

Also, there can be underlying vision or phonemic awareness problems. Look at the COVD list of symptoms as a primary screen, then a doctor from COVD.org f there are problems. I have a link to a good phonemic awareness screening test somewhere, I should probably add it to my testing page, I think it is on my dyslexia page.

Edited April 6, 2016 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

Here is the phonemic awareness test.

 

http://www.spelfabet.com.au/2013/02/free-phonological-awareness-test/

 

Most of my remedial students do not have a provlem with comprehension, but have not learned phonics well enough to completely read a passage accurately, you cannot comprehend if you are changing the meaning of a few words. It takes a while of reading accurately out loud before it transfers to accurate silent reading, as well.

[snowbeltmom]

Here is the phonemic awareness test.

 

http://www.spelfabet.com.au/2013/02/free-phonological-awareness-test/

 

Most of my remedial students do not have a provlem with comprehension, but have not learned phonics well enough to completely read a passage accurately, you cannot comprehend if you are changing the meaning of a few words. It takes a while of reading accurately out loud before it transfers to accurate silent reading, as well.

 

Thanks for the link.  My friend had her son try this test in the link above, and he could not answer any of the questions. 

 

The school has never tested him, and the classroom teacher told my friend that she doesn't think that the pull-out intervention program is working.  My friend feels like they have lost a year spinning their wheels.  They have meetings with the school specialists every quarter, but it doesn't seem like any progress is being made.

 

I gave her a list of everyone's testing suggestions and told her to request in writing that the school conducts the tests.  I don't know anything about her school system, but if it is anything like mine, nothing will happen until requests are put in writing and the school is forced to comply with the law.

 

She also has a meeting with a private specialist next week.

 

Thanks again, everyone, for your suggestions and help!

 

[Lecka]

This sounds like it might be on the dyslexia side.

 

ElizabethB's links are good.

 

The Barton reading website has good information.

 

The book "Overcoming Dyslexia" by Sally Shaywitz also has good information.

 

It sounds good she is meeting with a private specialist. Hopefully the can find out what steps to take to start making progress!