Honors Algebra vs. Algebra

[Haiku]

What would differentiate an honors algebra course from a regular algebra course?

 

On a related note, since a Carnegie credits is 120 hours, if a student spent 150+ hours on a subject, could that be considered honors? (This is a separate question from the honors vs. regular algebra question.)

Edited February 25, 2016 by TaraTheLiberator

[MarkT]

IMHO -  it is mostly about doing the harder textbook problem sets B and C (etc) and also somewhat about additional material covered.

Pure hours spent is somewhat meaningless.

 

 

an example:

http://cty.jhu.edu/ctyonline/courses/mathematics/algebra_1.html

[DebbS]

Additional hours can mean that either the student doesn't learn as fast or that they are working more difficult problems. You could give honors credit if it is the latter, but I would warn you that you will need to show some kind of justification for honors level math on your transcript if your student is college-bound. Certain programs are more accepted as honors than others. For example AOPS has Challenger problems that turn the regular math course into an honors course.

 

Getting high scores on the SAT Math Level 2 test or even better, high scores on the AP Calculus tests later on in your student's high school career could indicate that he/she worked at a higher level in Math in the earlier courses such as Algebra I, Geometry, etc. and work as proof for honors level in the earlier math courses such as Algebra. If getting good scores on these tests would be out of reach for your student, I would not give honors credit for a math course.

 

Many kids, mine included, spent more time on math than on some other subjects. Not because they are honors math students, but because they needed to do a lot of practice problems in order to get it. An hour a day, 5 days a week is not unusual amount of time to spend on a regular math course. For a 30 week school year, that's about 150 hours.

 

I don't hear of a lot of people giving honors credit for math unless it is taught via an outside source. Usually, the way a student stands out in math is that they move on to the higher levels more quickly. An advanced math student will usually breeze through Algebra I, Geometry and Algebra II pretty quickly and then move on the pre-calc and maybe even calc in their jr/sr years.

[regentrude]

I would not use the number of hours in a subject where there is a canon for the content; more hours for the same content often just means the student had difficulties and needed more time. In math, the number of hours is irrelevant - a strong student who completes an algebra 1 course in 80 hours deserves the same credit.

 

Honors algebra would incorporate more material than the standard algebra 1 course and go to greater depth. So, AoPS would most definitely qualify as honors, because it is much broader and deeper.

 

This said: I do not think colleges put much stock in a homeschool honors designation. I would explain the broader and deeper coverage in the course descriptions.

Edited February 25, 2016 by regentrude

[DebbS]

I didn't answer the 'related note' question in my above response. An honors designation is not based on hours only, but they usually do involve more time. You would need to justify your designation either by using an outside provider that offers an honors level or AP course, or by scoring well on  AP or CLEP exams. A one credit honors or AP course in highschool is usually equivalent to a 3 credit college course.

 

If you go the AP route, note that you can't name your course 'AP' unless you have it officially approved by the college board. What I did is give my kids honors credit for course that they took from an outside non-AP source and then they took the AP tests to prove honors level. These courses were taught by college professors and were the same as 200 and 300 college level courses that they had previously taught.

[Haiku]

The question about hours was not about algebra. It was about other classes where my student has covered more than a standard class because she has put in more hours and covered more material. So what I was asking was do more hours + more material = honors.

 

With the math, there was a thread about people not completing the entire Foerster book but still calling it algebra I. That got me thinking, because it never even occurred to me that we could not complete the whole book. We will be completing the whole book, so I wondered whether that would honors compared to others who are not doing the whole book but calling it algebra I.

[MarkT]

With the math, there was a thread about people not completing the entire Foerster book but still calling it algebra I. That got me thinking, because it never even occurred to me that we could not complete the whole book. We will be completing the whole book, so I wondered whether that would honors compared to others who are not doing the whole book but calling it algebra I.

If you are also doing the harder problems in Foerster then absolutely designate it as "Honors Algebra 1".

[Haiku]

My student does all the odd problems for every exercise (and the evens if I feel she needs more practice) + every single word problem in the entire book.

[Mike in SA]

Hours spent is a useful metric for PE or performance art; not so much for academics.

 

Honors designations for home school classes is going to be meaningless to most colleges, so I wouldn't sweat it much. More valuable will be advanced content or independently established classifications.

 

For algebra I, even using AOPS won't mean much when held up to SAT, ACT, and AP scores. The later classes matter the most.

 

For Foerster, doing every problem wouldn't make it honors. The content of the text is not sufficiently greater than that of its peers. If you added number theory or probability, or significant chunks of algebra 2, that would justify an honors designation.

[justasque]

What would differentiate an honors algebra course from a regular algebra course?

 

On a related note, since a Carnegie credits is 120 hours, if a student spent 150+ hours on a subject, could that be considered honors? (This is a separate question from the honors vs. regular algebra question.)

 

I would expect an honors Algebra I course to spend a significant amount of time on work with quadratic equations (parabolas), including factoring quadratics.  I've seen some courses labeled "Algebra" that included none or almost none.  If you're doing mostly work with linear equations (lines), then that for me is more honors pre-algebra or non-honors algebra.  Depth and breadth matter, as does the student having a sense of how things fit together.  In addition, an honors Algebra I student should be able to do most of their work without a calculator, graphing or otherwise.  I have no idea how accurate my expectations would be compared to a typical high school course.

 

Do not underestimate the amount of time a non-struggling college-prep high school student spends on an honors math course.  A 50-minute class most days, plus 30+ minutes of homework per class day, is not unusual.  

[RootAnn]

I have been looking at outside providers for Alg 2. One provider, Kolbe, covers more (but not all) of Foerster in their honors Alg 2 class vs their regular class. On the other hand, Homeschool Connections covers the entire Foerster Alg 2 and Trig book and that isn't their honors course.

 

I don't know what to think.

[Mom22ns]

What would differentiate an honors algebra course from a regular algebra course?

 

On a related note, since a Carnegie credits is 120 hours, if a student spent 150+ hours on a subject, could that be considered honors? (This is a separate question from the honors vs. regular algebra question.)

 

I don't think the number of hours spent reflects whether the course was honors level or not. DS spent 150-250 hours per credit. I only designated a few of those as honors. It took him that amount of time to cover a credit - particularly in math (I think he had over 300 hours for some of his math credits).

 

Honors is about the breadth or depth of the course. In math, it probably means more challenging problems. In other subjects, it may mean more application of the information or simply more information covered. 

[Haiku]

Do not underestimate the amount of time a non-struggling college-prep high school student spends on an honors math course.  A 50-minute class most days, plus 30+ minutes of homework per class day, is not unusual.  

 

DD spends about 90 minutes a day (average), five days a week, and will have finished the book in about 38 weeks. That's 285 hours.

 

It sounds to me, from the responses on this thread, that it's not worth it to designate the class honors. Hopefully she will perform well on the college entrance tests.

[justasque]

DD spends about 90 minutes a day (average), five days a week, and will have finished the book in about 38 weeks. That's 285 hours.

 

It sounds to me, from the responses on this thread, that it's not worth it to designate the class honors. Hopefully she will perform well on the college entrance tests.

 

I'm not sure I agree.  If she has the test scores to support it, and she's covered the entire text (and done the odds and all the word problems), then "honors" may be an appropriate label.  Since honors vs. not can affect the GPA and other things, which in turn affect admissions, I wouldn't be quick to leave it out if it does in fact apply.  

[Haiku]

I'm not sure I agree.  If she has the test scores to support it, and she's covered the entire text (and done the odds and all the word problems), then "honors" may be an appropriate label.  Since honors vs. not can affect the GPA and other things, which in turn affect admissions, I wouldn't be quick to leave it out if it does in fact apply.  

 

So I guess I wouldn't make the decision on how to designate it until she gets her ACT scores? She plans to take the ACT in June, but she's only in 8th grade, so I wouldn't worry about her scores until she's in 11th grade.

[DebbS]

So I guess I wouldn't make the decision on how to designate it until she gets her ACT scores? She plans to take the ACT in June, but she's only in 8th grade, so I wouldn't worry about her scores until she's in 11th grade.

 

Her 8th grade GPA won't be counted on a high school transcript anyway.  The only thing you can do with that is note that she took Algebra I in 8th grade.  But why would you as this is not uncommon. If they don't see Algebra I on her transcript, but see the higher level courses in 9th through 12th grade, then they'll know that she took Algebra I in middle school.

[Arcadia]

So I guess I wouldn't make the decision on how to designate it until she gets her ACT scores? She plans to take the ACT in June, but she's only in 8th grade, so I wouldn't worry about her scores until she's in 11th grade.

If she is taking algebra in 8th, then the honors designation has no effect on high school GPA anyway.

My state universities are not going to give higher weight for GPA for honors courses unless it is on their approved list. So it depends on where your child is going to apply to.

[regentrude]

For algebra I, even using AOPS won't mean much when held up to SAT, ACT, and AP scores. The later classes matter the most.

 

I do not understand the bolded. Algebra 1 is what carries the heaviest weight on the ACT and SAT math sections. There is very little algebra 2, and virtually no precalculus involved.

[Haiku]

Her 8th grade GPA won't be counted on a high school transcript anyway.  

 

I don't know yet when she will be graduating, so I am keeping my options flexible. She may graduate a year early, so the coursework she has done this year may be her 9th grade course work. She has done high school-level work this year.

[DebbS]

I do not understand the bolded. Algebra 1 is what carries the heaviest weight on the ACT and SAT math sections. There is very little algebra 2, and virtually no precalculus involved.

 

Algebra 1 and Geometry do carry the most weight on the SAT, but you'd have to have higher level competencies to score in the 700 to 800 range. The SAT includes more difficult problems to separate the average students from the very best students. I can't speak for the ACT.

 

The tests that you'll want to take, in addition, to prove honors math are the SAT II subject tests, the AP math tests or you can go the dual-credit route. Or you can justify it with your curriculum. The latter is less accepted by colleges than the former suggestions and can make your entire transcript questionable by college admissions people.  So, as a homeschooler, you'll want to be careful with honors designations.

[Mike in SA]

I do not understand the bolded. Algebra 1 is what carries the heaviest weight on the ACT and SAT math sections. There is very little algebra 2, and virtually no precalculus involved.

I meant that in terms of college readiness, the highest level attained means more than an honors designation in a foundational course. After finishing precal, honors algebra doesn't make for a more prepared student.

 

For the college admissions folks that I know, home school GPA weighting doesn't mean as much as for b&m schools. Not saying "don't do it" as much as "don't press it."

 

For the SAT, one could do well after only Aops prealgebra.

[DebbS]

I don't know yet when she will be graduating, so I am keeping my options flexible. She may graduate a year early, so the coursework she has done this year may be her 9th grade course work. She has done high school-level work this year.

 

Maybe just hold off with the honors designation on Algebra I until after she has Geometry and takes the SAT. I wouldn't consider the SAT score a valid measurement of just Algebra I because there is quite a bit of geometry on the test. Then, if she scores in the 700+ range then honors would be about right.

 

From my own experience with college admissions for both my kids, their As in honors History, Literature and Composition were backed by APs in world history, european history, english literature and english composition along with SAT 800s in critical reasoning. On the other hand, I gave them Bs and B+s in regular level math courses and they both scored in the mid 600s on the math sections of their SATs. Both admissions departments that evaluated their transcripts said that my mommy grades and honors designations were very consistent with the test results. I was also told that this is often not the case with homeschoolers. They see a lot of straight As and honors without the test scores to back up it up.  Either they don't admit these students or they don't give them merit aid.

[regentrude]

I meant that in terms of college readiness, the highest level attained means more than an honors designation in a foundational course. After finishing precal, honors algebra doesn't make for a more prepared student.

 

 

I think we need to be clear whether we talk about college readiness or competetiveness for admission to selective schools.

 

As I just today wrote in another post: I have been teaching physics at a university for 15 years. THE most important math for college readiness is algebra 1. The students who struggle in physics (and chemistry) because of math all struggle because of a lack in prealgebra and algebra skills - it is not their precalculus or calculus skills that limit their ability to pass the required coursework.

College readiness and the ability to succeed in college math and science courses hinges on a rock solid algebra 1 preparation.

 

Now, precalculus and calculus may be needed to make the transcript look competetive for admission, but ultimately it will be the algebra 1 skills who decide whether a student fails or succeeds.

[Haiku]

It's frustrating that I homeschool in part to avoid the ridiculous testing, but in the end all my hard work (and all my kids' hard work) comes down to testing.

 

I hate standardized tests, and I think they are bunk. My oldest got an 18 on the ACT after four tries and testing accommodations, and she's an A/B student with a bio major and a chem minor. I used to work for a textbook development company, and I worked on stadardized test development. They're a bunch of hooey, imo.

[Haiku]

Anyway, thanks for all the input. I guess I have my answer now.

[Mike in SA]

I think we need to be clear whether we talk about college readiness or competetiveness for admission to selective schools.

 

As I just today wrote in another post: I have been teaching physics at a university for 15 years. THE most important math for college readiness is algebra 1. The students who struggle in physics (and chemistry) because of math all struggle because of a lack in prealgebra and algebra skills - it is not their precalculus or calculus skills that limit their ability to pass the required coursework.

College readiness and the ability to succeed in college math and science courses hinges on a rock solid algebra 1 preparation.

 

Now, precalculus and calculus may be needed to make the transcript look competetive for admission, but ultimately it will be the algebra 1 skills who decide whether a student fails or succeeds.

Sorry, not meaning to argue it - DW and I have quite a bit of experience there as well. My comments were more from the angle of the admissions officer as opposed to the teacher.

 

I have to agree with the idea that long-term success is far more dependent upon foundational skills. Choice of language may differ, but we generally do agree on most of these things since our experiences are so similar. :)

 

Since we're discussing honors vs regular, I assumed - rightly or wrongly - that competitive was the objective. Enough said on that front since it isn't really helping OP...

[DebbS]

It's frustrating that I homeschool in part to avoid the ridiculous testing, but in the end all my hard work (and all my kids' hard work) comes down to testing.

 

I hate standardized tests, and I think they are bunk. My oldest got an 18 on the ACT after four tries and testing accommodations, and she's an A/B student with a bio major and a chem minor. I used to work for a textbook development company, and I worked on stadardized test development. They're a bunch of hooey, imo.

 

Totally understand your sentiments.  We tried to strike a balance in that we provided courses (both inside and outside providers) that we felt would give our kids a good education. And then we took a look at the AP tests and decided which ones they were prepared for. But yes, testing accomplishments and actual accomplishments often don't correlate. Nor does a great education necessarily correlate with what is tested. 

 

You have an interesting background. I hope that you demonstrate your credentials somewhere in your transcripts. If you don't do a bunch of standardized tests and you explain why in your homeschooling philosophy, that, along with your experience, might be enough. Maybe use words other than 'bunk' or 'hooey' (LOL)!  Although these words do get the point across!

[pamelaf]

I would take a look at an honors course textbook and compare the level of work and material covered.

[katilac]

 

For the college admissions folks that I know, home school GPA weighting doesn't mean as much as for b&m schools. 

 

I'll just add my usual comment to the honors threads: disregarding admissions, some schools accept a weighted GPA for scholarship purposes, and it can make a substantial monetary difference. 

[Mike in SA]

I'll just add my usual comment to the honors threads: disregarding admissions, some schools accept a weighted GPA for scholarship purposes, and it can make a substantial monetary difference. 

 

Besides the thread being a necroposting (6 months old), I did preface specifically with "for admissions."  Beyond that, there aren't many colleges who look blindly at weighted GPAs.  High schools weight so differently that it doesn't make a lot of sense, if you think about it.  One school's 5.0 gpa may be another school's 115 average...

[8filltheheart]

Besides the thread being a necroposting (6 months old), I did preface specifically with "for admissions." Beyond that, there aren't many colleges who look blindly at weighted GPAs. High schools weight so differently that it doesn't make a lot of sense, if you think about it. One school's 5.0 gpa may be another school's 115 average...

In today's college application world when so many schools are using SRARs (self-reporting academic record) which is assigns points based on what is entered, a student must enter exactly what is on their transcript. If student enters no honors courses when their actual courses are honors equivalent, their computer generated number might hurt their application. If an admissions committee wants to discount homeschool honors labels, I would prefer it be by human judgment vs. a computer generated evaluation. SRARs are not homeschool friendly since the system is designed to evaluate very traditional course sequences.

 

Fwiw, I know this post is old, but for any current readers, I have zero qualms labeling Foerster's honors. My 12th grader has multiple honors courses on her transcript that are not AP designated courses. Her courses are actually more intense than any high school courses I have ever seen, I have no problem entering honors on her transcript.

 

My concern is getting her to the point that a human looks at her transcript seriously. How they respond, that I can't control. But I don't want her computer generated evaluation to make it look like she is taking general level courses

 

Fwiw, her course descriptions and the grade that she took the course justify the designation. Another fwiw, kids taking alg earlier than their school's standard grade level sequence do,typically do have honors or advanced designations with their courses. If you read CC's parent of class 20xx threads, you'll see those labels matter from day 1 of any high school equivalent work. (Advanced is another SRARs category label. I haven't yet figured out if and how those 2 designations impact their applications. I was more concerned earlier when she was considering FSU which is 100% SRARs and she initially contacted admissions for an appointment on how to fill it out since her transcript is absolutely not traditional (her French for example is beyond AP level French, but it is simply labeled honor French 7.) But at this point she hasn't moved forward enough with her applications to worry about it yet.

 

The Common App has them self-reporting 12th grade, so she is going to have to contact her main schools and ask them how she should enter them.

[Mike in SA]

In today's college application world when so many schools are using SRARs (self-reporting academic record) which is assigns points based on what is entered, a student must enter exactly what is on their transcript. If student enters no honors courses when their actual courses are honors equivalent, their computer generated number might hurt their application. If an admissions committee wants to discount homeschool honors labels, I would prefer it be by human judgment vs. a computer generated evaluation. SRARs are not homeschool friendly since the system is designed to evaluate very traditional course sequences.

 

Fwiw, I know this post is old, but for any current readers, I have zero qualms labeling Foerster's honors. My 12th grader has multiple honors courses on her transcript that are not AP designated courses. Her courses are actually more intense than any high school courses I have ever seen, I have no problem entering honors on her transcript.

 

My concern is getting her to the point that a human looks at her transcript seriously. How they respond, that I can't control. But I don't want her computer generated evaluation to make it look like she is taking general level courses

 

Fwiw, her course descriptions and the grade that she took the course justify the designation. Another fwiw, kids taking alg earlier than their school's standard grade level sequence do,typically do have honors or advanced designations with their courses.

 

The bolded parts I have no qualms with - particularly the description, which matters significantly more than a designation in most (not all) cases .  When you are on the borderline for admissions, I can see it making a small difference.

 

Most admissions offices are familiar enough with local schooling and home schooling to adjust.  That's all I am saying.  Don't underestimate them - all but the most dogmatic can see the differences come scholarship time.

 

Otoh, acceleration isn't normally granted higher weighting - the fact that credits were earned prior to high school does that sufficiently well (this I have seen MANY times first hand).  This is routine for most local B&M schools.  The honors designation from middle school doesn't show on the high school transcript.

 

ETA: by the way, I don't have a problem with anyone putting whatever they want on a transcript.  I'm just saying "don't get your hopes up" about it making a huge difference.  I can believe that for someone, it has mattered, but I don't believe it's the norm.  None of the admissions folks I know would be swayed a whole lot by a home school designation.  Descriptions matter, but people can label anything they want however they want.  If you list AP scores, SAT scores, or other independently corroborated scores, they will carry more weight.  The harsh reality is that anything self-taught will be viewed with skepticism unless corroborated.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Mike in SA

[8filltheheart]

The honors designation from middle school doesn't show on the high school transcript.

 

Have you filled out a SRAR? If not, I suggest creating a false student account and look at how they work. Honors designations for middle school high school credits must exist bc there is a completely different section for high school credits earned in middle school and honors is one of the options.

 

While the suggestion behind SRARs is to review the entries thoroughly bc it is just supposed to be a preview, for schools getting thousands of applications and an indexing of applicants, not making it to an actual review phase may end up being a real,outcome based on how the student's courses are labeled.

 

http://www.aacrao.org/resources/resources-detail-view/field-notes--using-self-reported-academic-records-in-the-admissions-process

 

The list of schools going to SRARs is increasing each yr. I hate the system bc my kids do not take traditional courses that fit the drop down menu. But, knowing that the system exists and creates an index based on input should be on every applicant's radar.

[Mike in SA]

Again (third time), my comments were about scholarship funds.

 

SRAR and transcripts are different things. Never argued otherwise.