Concerned about paganism and teaching young children mythology

[Peaceful Isle]

To be a Christian can mean so many different things to different people.

 

And to convert to Christianity from Paganism can mean a LOT to you, that can be misunderstood by current Pagans and people of other religions. YOUR experiences were YOUR experiences and they are relevant to you and your children.

 

Take a paper and fold it into 3 columns. Label the columns: Us, ?, Other. For YOU myths would be "Other"; myths are NOT part of YOUR tradition. Bible would be "Us"; your entire life now centers on that book. For YOU most fairy tales are probably "Other".

 

Some things you just might not know if they are "Us" or "Other". Put those under "?" for now.

 

Grammar stage children are concrete thinkers. They are not ready for compare and contrast yet. That is a logic and rhetoric level skills and can wait. Grammar stage children need to be immersed in their own culture. Learning about "other" can wait until they know what their own culture is first.

 

I can get most confused by reading list that are close to "us" but not "us". Those lists share all my same fears. So the fear of skipping things are my fears, even if the books are not my books.

 

We have a ruling minority in this country and we are being told that the default "good" education is to prepare to enter that ruling minority. What if YOU are not part of that minority? What if you don't want to prepare your kids to be "other" from you? The choice to rear children in the parent culture was common in oldschooling, but is becoming increasingly rare post Y2K.

 

It is scary to buck the trends. Even though homeschooling isn't all that rare, now, it is just as rare for many a homeschooling family to choose to hunker down and rear their child in their OWN culture. It is just as isolating and scary now, as it was pre Y2K. But sometimes doing the scary thing is what we are driven to do.

 

It is not educational neglect to prepare your children to live in your own culture. It is what most cultures throughout time have done.

I love reading your posts, hunter. You have such wisdom.

[Hunter]

I love reading your posts, hunter. You have such wisdom.

I don't know if I'm wise, but I have a huge store of BTDT stories that run a very wide spectrum. :lol:

 

I don't know too many people with an extended family practicing traditional witchcraft, who also came very close to being baptized into an ultra-conservative Mennonite Church. And attended just about every other Christian denomination there is.

 

I'm busy, and I'm hesitant to post things here that out other people, but when I read this thread, I'm flooded with memories, that I wouldn't even know where to start sharing.

 

I know what it is like to think like a pagan. And I know what it is like to think like an ultra-conservative Christian. I know what it is like to be raised by a mom trying to protect me from what she grew up in and converted from.

 

I remember the look in my mom's eyes when she looked at me, before I even understood why. A lot was hidden from me for a long time, but I was innocently and instinctively being my grandmother's granddaughter, I guess. I don't know. I didn't know enough to even know how others might perceive me and my actions.

 

Lately, I feel like how early men must have felt. After awhile, they observed the changing seasons, and found it more comfortable to plan to adapt to the cycle, with absolutely no understanding of why we have seasons. Sure there were some myths and explanations going around, but many people just got practical and stored food.

 

I have seen so much. I have experienced so much. I don't understand and have stopped trying. But there are some practical things I do to be comfortable and safe.

 

And I have a huge amount of respect for a very wide variety of parenting styles and methods. Especially the ones I have practiced myself. :lol:

 

And what one of my sons revealed to me that he had been up to as a teen, despite being raised second generation Christian and never having even met any practicing Pagan family members.

 

And the grounding and healing that many trauma victims experience from learning some Pagan and Eastern ways.

 

And the grounding my mom had, that I didn't have, that I attribute to her being raised in what she was raised in. When the church was getting legalistic and abusive and I was losing my faith, and she wasn't and she talked about, "I just know!" She just knew things from BEFORE converting to Christianity, not because of it.

 

I'm rambling. Every post the past few days has been a ramble. I'm exhausted and SO behind with posts. Sorry.

[Hunter]

To me religious are like languages. Some languages are better for different things. Latin is great for poetry. Italian is great for Operas. English is great for science. Religions and languages are tools to explain our experiences.

 

I don't really have a belief in human rights anymore or a concept of right and wrong. But if there are human rights, parents should be able to raise their children in the home faith and home language, especially in the early years.

 

And WHATEVER the parent believes, I don't care what it is, if they BELIEVE it, they should share THEMSELVES with their children. That is a precious gift to be apprenticed in a faith and language, even a rare or dying one, maybe especially a rare or dying one.

 

Grounded and loved children go out into the world hardy and compassionate and creative. They don't need to know every fact and story. They are above needing to know them all.

[Hunter]

I think we mistakenly attribute some problems of missing information to being raised in first-world environments. What do I mean by that? I'm not exactly sure. :lol: when I figure that out and am not so tired and behind, it might become a thread topic.

[MouseBandit]

Thank you to everyone who replied and tried to help me sort out my thinking on this!  Hunter - you have always been someone on here I feel I can relate to very well - I sure appreciate your thoughts!! 

 

For the others who also had conflicted feelings on this topic, I found a book that I'm reading and it's really giving me a lot to think about.  It's unabashedly Christian - and it's called "Teaching the Trivium" by Bluedorn.  I highly recommend it for Christian parents.  :-)

 

Hope you all have an awesome week!

 

MouseBandit

 

[Hunter]

Thank you to everyone who replied and tried to help me sort out my thinking on this!  Hunter - you have always been someone on here I feel I can relate to very well - I sure appreciate your thoughts!! 

 

For the others who also had conflicted feelings on this topic, I found a book that I'm reading and it's really giving me a lot to think about.  It's unabashedly Christian - and it's called "Teaching the Trivium" by Bluedorn.  I highly recommend it for Christian parents.  :-)

 

Hope you all have an awesome week!

 

MouseBandit

 

I did find that book helpful, years ago. It answered some of the questions I had then, in language I could understand at the time. It freed me from literature checklists that were NOT working for me at the time. It freed me to focus more on languages than history, which worked, then.

[hisforhomeschooling]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize if this is repetitious. My sons are 2, 4, and 6, and when we are reading about the gods and goddesses, I tell my boys that they didn't have TV back then so these were like their superheroes. They wanted them to be real because they were so cool, but they were just pretend. I know that's simplistic but my kids are young :)

[Guest enunciat1]

I have also had some doubts about teaching the myths to early elementary children and wondered why there was so much focus on developing the moral imagination through fairy tale, myth and allegory in CM and classical education. I think at the base of this is the difference between catholicism and protestantism: experiential spirituality v propositional revelation. So of course the way you proceed may be more about theology than anything else. It is about how you would answer the questions: "How is truth revealed? Is truth found in many places?" It probably also revolves around how much time you have to spare for discussing the myths with the children. Especially when children are very young and are less able to evaluate the validity of claims, overt or hidden, in a story.

I think a lot of fiction for children today is dangerous because it instills a love for mystical "image" and a longing for the world of imagination. While Plutarch was a priest of apollo, his book "Lives of Plutarch" does not encourage children to want to "live" in the story but to explore the ideas presented by it. The mind is engaged, not the imagination. I think this is a key point when approaching secular literature for young children. The desires we feed grow. Ps 101:3.

 

Further more, when we model IGNORING whole people groups in the world in order to stick to our personal doctrine without question, we model rigid thinking.

One can choose what ideas one exposes a child to without being jumped with an accusation about rigid thinking. Not studying myths does not equal "ignoring whole people groups". I have never met a pagan who thought it was a grand idea to study the writings of the puritans, for example.

 

 

“I had some ado to prevent Joy (and myself) from lapsing into paganism in Attica! At Daphni it was hard not to pray to apollo the healer. But somehow one didn't feel it would have been very wrong --would have only been addressing Christ sub specie apollonius†(C.S. Lewis to Chad Walsh, May 23, 1960, cited from George Sayer, Jack: A Life of C.S. Lewis, 1994, p. 378)

 

[againstthegrain]

I think many children are interested in ancient myths because they are so different than our own and frankly because they are awesome stories that capture the imagination.  

 

I respectfully disagree with this point. I feel the fascination comes from the fact that the Ancients mythology is so similar, not different, to the stories found in the Bible. Our children correlate the ancient mythology to the bible stories in regard to overall character and message perfectly.

[Caviar]

This is a great topic, and one that I struggled with too.  This coming summer or fall I do plan on using MP's guide for D'Aulaires' Greek Myths.  There are so many references to myths in our culture that I feel it is important for my children to know those stories. Plus, they've already been allowed to read books and watch movies which incorporate many of those stories.  Just the other day my dd11 told me that the current book which she is reading has lots of stories in it about myths, and, "Mom, do you know some of those stories?"  I do question my children to make sure that they understand what is real and what is not.  Honestly, I think they understand better than I thought they did.  Most of the time I'll get the response, "Really Mom?  Of course they're not real, but Thor sure is good looking."  In fact, my dd11 has crocheted two Thor dolls, and my dd9 is crocheting Loki.  They also have made numerous rubber band loom dragons and other creatures, so I'm happy to have them being so creative.

[kubiac]

I would argue for giving your kids as broad an education as you dare.

 

We went to United Methodist Church preschool until I was in about mid-elementary school. Everything I know about Christianity came from the leaflets they handed out there, and a copy of the Macmillan Bible Stories for Children book that we had in the house. I did get a Bible from the church and I kept it for years, but I was never able to get much past Genesis. 

 

After we stopped going to church, my religious education screeched to a halt until I took a public school Comparative Religions class in 11th grade.

 

As such, because my religious education was so abbreviated, I was bewildered by many of the crucial religious references in later reading. "Who the heck are Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego? What exactly happened with Job and his trials and what is the message of that story? The Sermon on the Mount is what now?" I was genuinely and totally clueless about a lot of the finer points of Judeo-Christian belief systems, and it had an impact on my ability to do literary analysis and think critically about certain books.

 

It's just a vast cultural gap that left me having to do a lot of catch-up research in order to understand modern literature and even politics. I realize this is the opposite of what you concerns you, OP, but just be aware the choice to exclude things will have future consequences, some intended, some perhaps not.

Edited February 27, 2016 by kubiac

[Hunter]

In my experience, ultra-conservative Christian adults when faced with a knowledge deficit as a result of isolation within their community, feel and deal with it entirely differently than a secular adult feels and deals with knowledge deficits. To not understand something isn't always seen as a problem or something shameful. Ultra-conservative Christian groups often see themselves as "other" from the mainstream, and being hit in the face with being "other" is expected.

 

For kids that leave, many don't see the lack of knowledge as shameful even is they find it inconvenient. Some find it amusing more than inconvenient. I've even seen young adults--not exactly prideful--but content and even happy they were raised the way they were. Yes, even if choosing an adulthood outside the church.

 

My older son arrived in adulthood with some significant deficits of knowledge. Some were a result of his choices, not mine, or his dad's. He worked on gaining knowledge in some areas. Others he actually enjoyed and thought it was funny. And he knew he had a whole lot of knowledge that mainstreamers didn't have and he wouldn't have traded that for anything.

[Hunter]

Immersion in the Bible seems to replace the desire to know everything. Solomon in Ecclesiastes says there is no end to books, and that books are not the most important thing. And Christians believe he was the wisest man and maybe still is.

 

The first question of the Westminster Catechism teaches the purpose of man, and it is not to know as much as possible.

 

I'm not saying ultra-conservative Christians who think this way are right or wrong!!!! I don't even believe in right and wrong. I'm just saying that they have this covered as WHOLE and that the worries of the secular world are not always their worries. And most of them do just great when they keep the WHOLE deal.

[KarenNC]

One can choose what ideas one exposes a child to without being jumped with an accusation about rigid thinking. Not studying myths does not equal "ignoring whole people groups". I have never met a pagan who thought it was a grand idea to study the writings of the puritans, for example.

 

You have now.  ;)  We are Neopagan and I did indeed have my daughter read Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the hands of an angry God," among other things, in elementary to help her understand the worldview of many people she met both in our extended family and homeschooling.

[Rosie_0801]

You people know more interesting pagans than I do. My dd has listened to me read pagan mythology from various cultures and still isn't pagan because the paganism she sees demonstrated is of the atheist kind, with lots of focus on housework and gardening chores. Dull stuff. 

 

We won't be reading the writings of the puritans (not our country/tradition) but we did manage to listen to the KJV last year and she's not Christian either even though she attends church fortnightly.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Rosie_0801

[Peplophoros]

I will just add that, in times before now, reading pagan authors and pagan mythology (Homer, Vergil, Horace, etc.) was an essential part of education.  This was no less so for some of the greatest theologians in Christian history.  You'd be hard-pressed to find any who weren't very familiar with pagan mythology.  

 

The best of western literature has always included ancient mythology; Christian leaders, theologians, and clergy grew up on the stuff, why shouldn't our kids?

 

 

 

[Guest enunciat1]

You have now.  ;)  We are Neopagan and I did indeed have my daughter read Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the hands of an angry God," among other things, in elementary to help her understand the worldview of many people she met both in our extended family and homeschooling.

PLeased to meet you. :)

 

Anti-intellectualism is certainly high in certain christian cultures, but I would like to propose the idea that it was perhaps a virtue in those cultures before they became 'christian fundamentalists' - a fascinating book about the cultural roots of America is "Albion's Seed" by Fischer. Basically, they maintain the same scots-irish culture that is shared by a lot of people up and down the east coast. It is neither unique to christian fundamentalists nor the result of their belief system.

[KarenNC]

PLeased to meet you. :)

 

Anti-intellectualism is certainly high in certain christian cultures, but I would like to propose the idea that it was perhaps a virtue in those cultures before they became 'christian fundamentalists' - a fascinating book about the cultural roots of America is "Albion's Seed" by Fischer. Basically, they maintain the same scots-irish culture that is shared by a lot of people up and down the east coast. It is neither unique to christian fundamentalists nor the result of their belief system.

 

Thanks, I'll have to look for that. We are deeply rooted in Scots-Irish territory here (mixed with German Lutherans from the pre-Rev War migrations down the Great Wagon Road). In our case, my father is very, very Calvinist and much of my extended family is very fundamentalist Evangelical, radically different than my daughter's Neopagan UU upbringing, so I wanted her to have a better understanding of their worldviews. Comparative theology is also rather a hobby of mine, so we've put a good deal of time over the years into learning about a wide variety of religious traditions in developmentally appropriate ways. The discussion of Edwards came late in elementary, when we were learning about early American history, but she was familiar with basic Jewish and Christian Bible stories from an early age. 

 

Anti-intellectualism is not the monopoly of any group, unfortunately. You will find plenty in followers of various Neopagan religions (and other groups) as well. 

[Classically Minded]

I think it is very important that children (and adults) understand mythology, as someone before mentioned that to even really grasp some Biblical stories, knowing the myths behind the opposing side is crucial.  Also, understanding even parts in the New Testament helps if you know the gods/myths at that time that Paul references and the cities such as Ephesus and the goddess Diana that is mentioned.  I think it broadens your understanding of the Bible completely and without it, you don't get the whole picture fully.  I also teach my children what evolution is.  They need to know the opposing side or their curiosity of the unknown later on may be a problem.

[Stellalarella]

Myths for  kid readers (other than the Rylant book I previously referenced) didn't make much sense to me or even seem that valuable until   I read the real thing--Greek tragedies, Odyssey and the Iliad, Beowulf, and The Epic of Gilgamesh.   Listen to Sir Ian McKellen read the whole Odyssey and THEN decide whether or not introducing the Odyssey to the kiddos is worth your time.  

 

I find myself teaching the stories much more enthusiastically now that I have an appreciation of the full versions.

 

The other thing that tipped the hat in favor of me teaching those stories to my kids is that I received some education on the ancient cultural norms of honor/shame/patronage/kinship.  An honor/shame culture is very different than my culture, so much so that I had a tremendous barrier to understanding and enjoying those ancient stories.  

 

The other thing that helped me was that I read essays from folks who loved the stories and gave good reasons why I should want to try to love them too.  Their enthusiasm was contagious.  

 

 

 

Edited February 29, 2016 by Stellalarella

[Classical Katharine]

The apostle Paul in his sermon at Mars Hill, in the book of Acts, began by making an appeal to common ground: You are very religious, you even have an altar to an unknown God. What you worship without knowing, I now declare to you. I think we can say he addressed his hearers respectfully as people who had sought out the knowledge of God and had in some ways attained to it. "As one of your own poets has said, In him we live and move and have our being.'" Paul agreed with that poet! Yet, Paul was sure he had received revelation and his life had clearly been transformed by one who he knew was as yet unknown to those he was addressing, and he wanted to share that knowledge. He believed that knowing that one held out the firm promise of eternal life, a blessing he wanted to share. But he did know the thought and the writings of the people he was conversing with and he treated their past religious experience as worthy of engaging and supplementing, not dismissing.

 

Just to be clear, this is not meant as a comment or gloss on any specific thing anyone has said yet in this thread. I'm just thinking about the topic at hand. It seems to me that a desire to understand others in order to serve them while still walking in the path that we believe is true and safe, and teaching our children what we believe and why, is a framework within which we can make specific decisions about what to study and when. I think that applies whatever our starting point is.

 

 

 

[MeganW]

The ancient Egyptian, Greek, and Roman mythologies provide context.  Ex.  The 10 Plagues of Moses' day are merely unfortunate events until you read with an understanding that each plague was a direct defeat of an Egyptian god...the 10th being the ultimate b/c killing Pharoah's 1st born son meant killing the heir, killing a GodKing, killing their god on earth.  The Plagues were not just punishment, they were communicating something deeper and that understanding is lost when you skip the mythology.  That is just one example.  The Bible is full of pieces that are not fully understood without the context of the ancient cultures, and those cultures centered upon their religions.

 

 

I think it is better to introduce mythology early, 6-7yo.  They understand the difference between real and pretend.  They also put a great amount of trust in Mommy & Daddy at those ages.  It is the overly-sheltered 12yo meeting Thor (or Percy Jackson) for the first time who is more likely to allow fascination turn to obsession.  We've done quite a lot of mythology through the years, and I assure you that there have been conversations where my kids have flat out asked me how we know that the stories in the Bible are different from the Greek/Roman myths.  Those have been some of the best conversations, and I would NOT want to start that process in the preteen years when they are in the logic/argumentative stage. 

 

A 12yo who comes from a rigidly authoritarian home, no questioning The Truth allowed, is the most vulnerable when it comes to leaving the Faith of their parents altogether.  "What else are you hiding?" becomes the constant question.  Open up a healthy dialogue very young.

 

I learned as an adult about other ancient cultures having a flood story, and a story similar to Moses in the basket.  I won't lie - it rocked my world!  Truly shocking.  My kids learned about those things as young elementary kids.  The easy explanation was completely accepted as fact, and they moved on without question.  I would MUCH rather have heard all of it as a young kid then learn later and have to really work through all that.

[FO4UR]

I see this thread was bumped, such a good topic. What we are really asking is if we should allow our children to see different cultures, to ask difficult questions, to compare our family religion next to our neighbor's and see how they measure up.  This is scary for some b/c "What if the kids choose differently?"

 

We must always remember that all children are born persons. Their relationship with God is theirs. It's not ours. We have a responsibility to educate them, but their spiritual health is not under our control (contrary to some popular teachings).

 

Our family is going through some tough times currently, to put it mildly. And THIS...this opening up of a dialogue has been one of those thin threads that has kept the kids with me mentally/emotionally. I won't share the details, for their privacy, but some of their recent questions would meet with shock and scorn by most people in our culture. But, they ask me. They are talking. 

 

 

So...my reason #1 for a Christian parent to introduce mythology of other cultures is b/c if Mom can openly discuss the Greek gods and field tough religious questions without shock and scorn, maybe she is a safe person to ask about ________ when they are tweens/teens and coming into contact with cultural things you cannot control. You cannot control their generation's cultural atmosphere or how they choose to fit within it. You can only offer to be safe person to process these things upon.

[YsgolYGair]

Totally an old thread, but such a good one, I thought I'd risk commenting... I, too, have struggled with the question asked, so I read up on the topic. One of the things I read stuck with me so I thought I'd share it. The article made the point that if you spend much time focusing on ancient myths, you will miss valuable time available to delve deeply into really great children's literature. That stuck with me, and as a result I have glossed over the ancient myths - nothing more than what is found in SOTW - and for read aloud time we do literature that makes even me want to keep reading: The Little House Series, Christian Heroes Then and Now Series (and other biographies), Owls in the Family, etc. There is so much great children's literature out there that teaches great lessons, gives kids great examples to live up to, or are just plain fun, that I really don't think they are worth sacrificing for Minotaurs or Zeus or even the "oh so important" knowledge of other belief systems in general. 

[nixpix5]

Any pagan story is a wonderful opportunity to glorify the true God because contrasts intensify each other. That's why we study Pagan Literature in our Christian homeschool. Pointing out specifically how very different these pagan gods are compared to the real God is yet another opportunity to glorify Him. Pagan gods and demigods are humanity amplified. God is completely unlike us and unlike them. Contrasting them to Him clarifies that. Literature is the study of humanity and its need for God's transformative work in us from the inside out.

 

For example, Christians unfamiliar with Nordic Mythology might say "how nice" when they hear the Christian Icelandic Hymn lyrics written around the year 800 when Christianity came to Scandinavia.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnKIgccY09Q

 

Jesus came to save pagans after all. Any Christian familiar with Nordic Mythology: the brutality of Viking culture, the hopeless fatalism of Ragnarok, the empty debauchery of Valhalla, the cold bleakness and fear of nature's elements in Scandinavia and the cruelty of their gods, would be inclined to be overwhelmed by the grace of God on people so far gone in paganism and weep with love joy when reading those lyrics. They talk about the mercy of Jesus who has replaced Thor as "the smith of the heavens." Transformation from spiritual death to spiritual life, hopelessness turned to hope and resignation to joy are understood by anyone with a background in the mythology. You just don't get that when you're ignorant of the back story. You miss depth and breadth. You miss the transformation of pagan Yule to Christmas Yuletide. You miss how, as redeemed pagans become children of God they redeem their holidays from people trembling in fear of Lussi the witch hag just before Yule to remembering St. Lucy who stood confidently proclaiming her faith in Jesus Christ as she was burned at the stake that we now remember during advent.

This right here.

 

You may want to take a look at Veritas Press self paced. They do an excellent job with this type of comparison to highlight God.

 

For example, my kids are working through Greece and Rome currently. When they went through the Trojan War and learned about the gods and Achilles they contrasted them against Jesus and what Jesus says about the things the Greeks held as important. It was powerful for my kids. They were getting their bibles and sitting down and digging into it on their own.

 

The Ancient Egypt course includes bible history in the timeline of events so you can see how it all fits together. It is awesome :)

 

I understand your concern. I too grew up in a non Christian home. I felt unprotected from the world by my parents and I try to balance that with my kids too.

[HomeAgain]

Totally an old thread, but such a good one, I thought I'd risk commenting... I, too, have struggled with the question asked, so I read up on the topic. One of the things I read stuck with me so I thought I'd share it. The article made the point that if you spend much time focusing on ancient myths, you will miss valuable time available to delve deeply into really great children's literature. That stuck with me, and as a result I have glossed over the ancient myths - nothing more than what is found in SOTW - and for read aloud time we do literature that makes even me want to keep reading: The Little House Series, Christian Heroes Then and Now Series (and other biographies), Owls in the Family, etc. There is so much great children's literature out there that teaches great lessons, gives kids great examples to live up to, or are just plain fun, that I really don't think they are worth sacrificing for Minotaurs or Zeus or even the "oh so important" knowledge of other belief systems in general. 

 

It doesn't have to be either/or.  We delved heavily into ancient stories: everything from Gilgamesh to Japanese gods and all inbetween.  I let him run with whatever he liked.

 

This year, my kid had enough of a background to understand how the cultures connect, the format of the hero's journey in myths, legends, and modern tales, and how the stories reflect the times people lived in.  Why on earth would I give this up to fit in one more simple story, one created without the complex characters that are woven throughout time?  He gets enough great children's literature through ELTL, book clubs, and his own choices.  Learning about cultures through history and how to respect community beliefs shouldn't be shunned.  That is a deeper lesson in itself.  There is time for both classic and contemporary stories in childhood. 

[shawthorne44]

I think exposing them to these things while your kids still think you hung the moon is the best time.