Looking for a college

[justasque]

And one other word of warning regarding small Christian colleges: wherever you choose, make sure the school is properly accredited. Many Christian colleges are NOT accredited, and essentially your very expensive education ends up being good for (close to) nothing.

 

 

Then you will want to watch your accreditations. You will need to be able to get into law school after college. 

 

I meant the one in TN. I don't know about the one in MN. At least Hampden-Sydney is regionally accredited. Neither Crown or NSA are.

 

AngryBircher17, do you understand what people are talking about when they say certain schools (or programs) aren't accredited?  This is VERY IMPORTANT.  If a school isn't accredited, it can mean that other schools won't recognize or accept the credits you earn there.  It means you will be paying a LOT of money and spending a LOT of time on classes that may end up being meaningless in the larger world.  In addition, accreditation is a complicated thing, so actually saying a school is "accredited" doesn't tell you enough - you have to know what kind of accreditation they have, and if it is a widely-recognized kind.  So a school may say to you "yes, we're accredited", but it may be of a widely unrecognized variety, which is worthless.  You do NOT want to go to four years of college only to find that no one recognizes your coursework.  Please don't rely on these schools themselves to reassure you about this - do your research on places like College Confidential to be sure you understand the implications of choosing such a school. 

[justasque]

Hi

I'm currently a Junior in high school, and I'm looking for a good classical college. Here's what I'm looking for in a college

1. Small- NO more than 2000 students

2. Classical Education- I want a college that provides a strong classical education. Use of the Great Books, study of Western Civilization.

3. Conservative( preferably Protestant)- I want a culturally conservative college with a serious student body. I want a school that has great respect for Western Culture. I want to AVOID things like Progressivism, Feminism, and Multiculturalism.

Any suggestions?

 

Also - "college" looks completely different, even at the same school, depending on your major.  An engineering student for example spends most of their time on math-based classes, and any Western Civ / Great Books type classes are generally chosen from a variety of options.  An English major would have quite the opposite.  I'm not sure why you want a smaller school, but larger schools tend to have more options to choose from a variety of classes.  If you look at a school's web site, and pick a particular major, they should tell you what courses they offer in the department, and what the required courses are for that major.  For example, an accounting major might have to take certain general math classes, along with specific accounting classes, plus some basic "core classes".  To fill a particular requirement, you might have to take a specific class, or choose from two or three classes, or choose from thirty or forty wide-ranging possibilities.  How much flexibility there is in the program will vary by school and by major.  By looking carefully at the required courses, you'll get a much better idea of what you are going to be studying at that school and whether it fits with what you want from your education.  

 

 

[Corraleno]

I've never heard of New St Andrews...

 

You may have heard of New St Andrews' founder — Doug Wilson. There have been quite a few threads here about his controversial views on slavery (a good Christian institution that benefited slaves, who were treated well and loved their masters), rape (women who refuse to be under the authority of their husbands and fathers are tacitly agreeing to rape), and pedophilia (no big deal, apparently, as long as the perpetrator is white, male, and the right kind of Christian).

 

The most recent thread here about Wilson was about his unwavering support for a convicted pedophile (Steven Sitler), whose crimes he helped cover up and whose marriage to a naive young woman in Wilson's church he helped to arrange, who was discovered last fall to have molested his own baby.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Also - "college" looks completely different, even at the same school, depending on your major.  An engineering student for example spends most of their time on math-based classes, and any Western Civ / Great Books type classes are generally chosen from a variety of options.  An English major would have quite the opposite.  I'm not sure why you want a smaller school, but larger schools tend to have more options to choose from a variety of classes.  If you look at a school's web site, and pick a particular major, they should tell you what courses they offer in the department, and what the required courses are for that major.  For example, an accounting major might have to take certain general math classes, along with specific accounting classes, plus some basic "core classes".  To fill a particular requirement, you might have to take a specific class, or choose from two or three classes, or choose from thirty or forty wide-ranging possibilities.  How much flexibility there is in the program will vary by school and by major.  By looking carefully at the required courses, you'll get a much better idea of what you are going to be studying at that school and whether it fits with what you want from your education.  

 

 

 

The author of Debt-Free U makes the argument that a large school may work better for a student with specific academic or social needs because the base pool of students is larger, giving a larger number of people who may be good matches in terms of extracurriculars, academic interests, or demographic similarities.  I have seen large universities with really big and active faith groups (both recognized on campus groups and off campus ministries to students).  

 

This may be something that the OP should consider.  You don't have to be friends with 35,000 at a large school.  But it gives you 35,000 from which to find people with whom you click.

 

It also gives you options should you find that you change your mind about something you thought was important during the college search time.  Maybe you decide that you want to shift your major, pick up a different language or explore different aspects of your faith.  The options with a medium or large school are very different than a school that is under 1000 students.

[Heather in VA]

AngryBircher17, do you understand what people are talking about when they say certain schools (or programs) aren't accredited?  This is VERY IMPORTANT.  If a school isn't accredited, it can mean that other schools won't recognize or accept the credits you earn there.  It means you will be paying a LOT of money and spending a LOT of time on classes that may end up being meaningless in the larger world.  In addition, accreditation is a complicated thing, so actually saying a school is "accredited" doesn't tell you enough - you have to know what kind of accreditation they have, and if it is a widely-recognized kind.  So a school may say to you "yes, we're accredited", but it may be of a widely unrecognized variety, which is worthless.  You do NOT want to go to four years of college only to find that no one recognizes your coursework.  Please don't rely on these schools themselves to reassure you about this - do your research on places like College Confidential to be sure you understand the implications of choosing such a school. 

 

This needs to be reiterated again and again. This is absolutely critical, especially the bolded part. Lots of schools called themselves accredited. They might even by accredited by an organization. But unless they are accredited by a widely-recognized organization it doesn't mean squat. Typically this kind of widely-recognized organization comes in the form of 'regional accreditation'. There are seven (I think it's 7 - maybe 6) organizations responsibly for regional accreditation of colleges. They are divided primarily geographically. You can research the regional accreditation for details on the names of these organizations and which states each one is responsible for. This is the kind of accreditation you want to find to assure general acceptance of your degree both for employment and future educational endeavors. I know it seems odd but regional accreditation is high accreditation than national accreditation so don't let that confuse you. 

[creekland]

This needs to be reiterated again and again. This is absolutely critical, especially the bolded part. Lots of schools called themselves accredited. They might even by accredited by an organization. But unless they are accredited by a widely-recognized organization it doesn't mean squat. Typically this kind of widely-recognized organization comes in the form of 'regional accreditation'. There are seven (I think it's 7 - maybe 6) organizations responsibly for regional accreditation of colleges. They are divided primarily geographically. You can research the regional accreditation for details on the names of these organizations and which states each one is responsible for. This is the kind of accreditation you want to find to assure general acceptance of your degree both for employment and future educational endeavors. I know it seems odd but regional accreditation is high accreditation than national accreditation so don't let that confuse you. 

 

I agree with you in general, but I have to admit I've now seen students from certain not regionally accredited schools who have gone on and done well with professional schools (like med schools, law schools, business schools).  I'm not so sure it matters in these fields TBH.  I expect it still matters quite a bit for grad schools and Wall St, but not so much for professional schools in general.

 

The key appears to be seeing where previous grads have gone.  If others have done it, it is likely it can still be done if students are comparable (remembering that people skills count as all graduates are not the same).

 

Patrick Henry appears to send students on to good places.  It's entirely possible New St. Andrews does too.  Just because a school was founded by someone we disagree with in certain matters doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad school for the student with the correct fit.  The education can still be solid even if there are different lifestyle preferences.  

 

Eckerd often makes the Top 10 in "Druggie Colleges" (or similar named categories).  My youngest is not in the majority when he doesn't care to party or partake.  Yet he has found similar minded friends and there's a decent Christian group there too.  The academic part of the school still seems solid as were the profs we met and talked with.  Graduates go on and do impressive things with their lives.  A school's main population or reputation only means so much.  The profs and what the individual student does there means so much more.  Who that student is (people skills, etc) does too.

 

I can see why many in HR don't care what name is on a prospective's resume.  It can mean a little bit, but in general, they want to see what the individual has done and who they are.

 

For grad schools and when the degree goes straight to the job (engineering, etc), then the name can mean much more as the strength of the knowledge tends to be similar among graduates, but for prof schools and jobs where the degree doesn't matter, names seem to be practically meaningless from what I've been seeing.

[TammyS]

 

I'm not as familiar with those who believe Western people and culture are superior - perhaps those who subscribe to the KKK I suppose.  Actually, wait, we did have a Skinhead at school many years ago and he felt that way quite openly.  It was pretty depressing.  Last I knew he was suspended from school for fighting and I never heard any more thereafter, so have no idea what became of him.  My in-laws would probably agree too considering they are the most racist folks I know IRL.

 

You know, this kid came here and asked for information.  He was honest about who he is and what he's about.  In a typical, unsubtle 16 year old fashion.  And for you to equate his beliefs with "kkk, skinheads, and racist" is really just....I can't even.

[creekland]

You know, this kid came here and asked for information.  He was honest about who he is and what he's about.  In a typical, unsubtle 16 year old fashion.  And for you to equate his beliefs with "kkk, skinheads, and racist" is really just....I can't even.

 

If he's a kid being honest... and even if so, yes, he ought to start putting some connections together that tend to fit together. He's 16.  ;)

[chiguirre]

You know, this kid came here and asked for information.  He was honest about who he is and what he's about.  In a typical, unsubtle 16 year old fashion.  And for you to equate his beliefs with "kkk, skinheads, and racist" is really just....I can't even.

 

Umm, the John Birch Society is notorious for opposing civil rights in the 60s.

[AngryBircher17]

This is getting stupid. Racism will get you kicked out of the Society. I believe Western culture is superior. Alan Keyes is one of my favorite people in politics. People call Pat Buchanan a racist when he's done nothing. I am a socially conservative, anti-war, anti-immigration Protectionist. I am as Anti-Communist as one could possibly be. I adamantly oppose any kind of affirmative action. I believe in meritocracy. If you want to get an idea of my views, look at this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoconservatism

[creekland]

This is getting stupid. Racism will get you kicked out of the Society. I believe Western culture is superior. Alan Keyes is one of my favorite people in politics. People call Pat Buchanan a racist when he's done nothing. I am a socially conservative, anti-war, anti-immigration Protectionist. I am as Anti-Communist as one could possibly be. I adamantly oppose any kind of affirmative action. I believe in meritocracy. If you want to get an idea of my views, look at this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoconservatism

 

Well, I wasn't really worried that you were a Skinhead since you're looking into colleges.   ;)  That reference was just to another young man I met who thought Western Culture is superior - one of only a few (especially youngsters) who would openly state that so firmly.

 

Regarding being anti-immigration... just consider that you are who you are only due to the birth lottery (where you were born).  God tells us that all people are equal and loved by Him and we are supposed to be nice/respectful to the alien living among us.  How do you reconcile those beliefs?  How can you even be satisfied living in this country since your ancestors were immigrants at one point or another and as a race/culture we took over this land from others who lived here?

 

Or was it somehow ok then, but not now?  If so, why the difference?

 

Just thoughts this morning.  I have to get ready to go to school.

Edited February 8, 2016 by creekland

[creekland]

Ok, I'm in school, but my main focus for today is shepherding a student teacher - meaning I've hardly anything to do for most of the time.  Hence, I'll be on the computer a bit aside from some lunch duty I'll handle.

 

If you want any sort of intelligent back and forth conversation (and are free enough to do so during this school day), I'm available.

 

Just to be clear... my discussions with students are always designed to get them to think... not to get them to change their mind.  I like to teach them to think.  To do this I'll pretty much always take up the "other" side in discussions/debates.  Few students know what my thoughts/beliefs are (aka how I vote).

 

There is nothing at all wrong with how you say you want to live (SAHW, politics/business path, college major, etc), but I'll argue there's a bit wrong with forcing all of that on others who don't share your beliefs.  I'll also argue the the Bible agrees with me.  ;)

 

If you have no interest or no time, I totally get that too.  I didn't expect to have time today.  I thought I'd be the one teaching Alg 1 & 2, but obviously, I didn't know this teacher's set up this semester!

 

 

[creekland]

ps  Glad to know you aren't racist!  Now just carry that over to immigrants as they had no control over their starting point in this world and the vast majority are just trying to live a decent life - the one you get to enjoy due to the privilege of your birth.

 

Yes, there are a few bad apples among them.  There are among our native population too.

[Heather in VA]

I agree with you in general, but I have to admit I've now seen students from certain not regionally accredited schools who have gone on and done well with professional schools (like med schools, law schools, business schools).  I'm not so sure it matters in these fields TBH.  I expect it still matters quite a bit for grad schools and Wall St, but not so much for professional schools in general.

 

The key appears to be seeing where previous grads have gone.  If others have done it, it is likely it can still be done if students are comparable (remembering that people skills count as all graduates are not the same).

 

Patrick Henry appears to send students on to good places.  It's entirely possible New St. Andrews does too.  Just because a school was founded by someone we disagree with in certain matters doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad school for the student with the correct fit.  The education can still be solid even if there are different lifestyle preferences.  

 

Eckerd often makes the Top 10 in "Druggie Colleges" (or similar named categories).  My youngest is not in the majority when he doesn't care to party or partake.  Yet he has found similar minded friends and there's a decent Christian group there too.  The academic part of the school still seems solid as were the profs we met and talked with.  Graduates go on and do impressive things with their lives.  A school's main population or reputation only means so much.  The profs and what the individual student does there means so much more.  Who that student is (people skills, etc) does too.

 

I can see why many in HR don't care what name is on a prospective's resume.  It can mean a little bit, but in general, they want to see what the individual has done and who they are.

 

For grad schools and when the degree goes straight to the job (engineering, etc), then the name can mean much more as the strength of the knowledge tends to be similar among graduates, but for prof schools and jobs where the degree doesn't matter, names seem to be practically meaningless from what I've been seeing.

 

Since most of my experience has been with people wanting to go to grad school, I definitely am not as knowledgeable about potential differences when applying to law school or med school. It sounds like it might have different concerns. I guess for me it's about not shutting doors unnecessarily. 

 

Assuming it's true that law schools, for example, care less about the accreditation, I'm not sure that means it never comes into play. Getting into schools on all levels is becoming more and more competitive, not less. So what happens when there are a huge stack of equally qualified students. Something has to be the tipping point. If the difference between two students is that one went to an accredited school and one went unaccredited... will that be what makes the decision?  Do they look for kids from Patrick Henry, just to pick one, to have higher grades and LSATs than other kids they admit? Not really something they would come out and say but could be the case. Maybe not, but why take the risk without a good reason. 

 

And let's not forget that lots of kids change their major. So if you go into school thinking that it's fine because you are going to law school and they won't care about the accreditation, what happens when you change your mind and now want to study something that requires grad school? 

 

I guess I just always lean toward keeping as many doors open as possible, especially when dealing with 16/17 years old.  Certainly a lot of people go to colleges that are not regionally accredited and do very well. I would just encourage the OP to weigh his apparent need to study somewhere that is fully in like mind with him and potential issues down the road with the schools he is looking at.  He hasn't mentioned a concern about cost of school or ability to get accepted so I am assuming based on his comments that the worldview/mindset of the school itself is the primary deciding factor. 

[creekland]

Since most of my experience has been with people wanting to go to grad school, I definitely am not as knowledgeable about potential differences when applying to law school or med school. It sounds like it might have different concerns.  

 

I've been mentally figuring out the differences myself.  So far, my best guess is that prof schools cost money (usually) rather than being funded by those making the acceptances AND they are training people (doctors/lawyers) for all segments of society, so want representation of all segments of society to train.  Grad schools are looking to further research - academic deals.  That would depend more on the academic foundation already there.

 

For all else you wrote, I agree with you.  A non-accredited school would never have gotten a second look from us, but there are some students who are good fits for them.  Anyone heading in to college should have their eyes open to all potential pitfalls though.

 

Conservative/Christian kids from our school often do very well at regular universities or the usual Christian colleges they attend.  One won't necessarily be "lost" if they attend one. 

[Heather in VA]

I've been mentally figuring out the differences myself.  So far, my best guess is that prof schools cost money (usually) rather than being funded by those making the acceptances AND they are training people (doctors/lawyers) for all segments of society, so want representation of all segments of society to train.  Grad schools are looking to further research - academic deals.  That would depend more on the academic foundation already there.

 

For all else you wrote, I agree with you.  A non-accredited school would never have gotten a second look from us, but there are some students who are good fits for them.  Anyone heading in to college should have their eyes open to all potential pitfalls though.

 

Conservative/Christian kids from our school often do very well at regular universities or the usual Christian colleges they attend.  One won't necessarily be "lost" if they attend one. 

 

Very good point about the differences between prof schools and grad schools. That could definitely come into play with the differences in acceptances. 

 

I certainly don't want to imply that kids can't do well going to a Christian college. I went to one myself as does my oldest daughter. Both schools were regionally accredited, though. 

 

I just encourage the OP to know the pros and cons and focus a bit more on what he wants to study and the career he is hoping for than the political ideas of the institution. For many kids the right school doesn't end up looking anything like what they thought. 

[Bluegoat]

If you don't mind look at Catholic schools there are a bunch that would fit the bill on all of your other requirements.  Check out this guide: http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/TheNewmanGuide.aspx

 

Could a Catholic school resonably be expected to believe that western culture is supirior to all others?

[Bluegoat]

I know VP sounds like a great job title, but in investment banking it's only the second rung on the post-MBA ladder. First you're an associate, then you're a VP, then managing director, then you actually get a seriously responsible position. Here's a link that explains:

 

http://news.efinancialcareers.com/uk-en/11635/what-investment-banking-job-titles-really-mean/

 

Do you know anyone in real life who is a lawyer or works in financial services? I think you would benefit from buying them a cup of coffee and running your plans by them. We can offer you some ideas but we're clearly not your peeps. I do think if you've got your heart set on a great books school, law school is a much better second step than trying to self study for the finance tests.

 

It might depend - my university has a great books program, but it is only the first year.  It's possible to do almost any degree after that as it counts for most of the more general first year credits.  A friend of mine who went through with me is an economic prof now.

 

I also think that the idea of "a classical school" is in part about atmoshpere.  Not even all classics departments have the same atmosphere about what they do.  It's hard to know what the OP wants in that respect though.

[Bootsie]

It is a Catholic university, so it doesn't meet all of your criteria, but University of Dallas is small, liberal arts, has a strong core curriculum. 

[DawnM]

Then you will want to watch your accreditations. You will need to be able to get into law school after college. 

 

 

I actually know a lawyer who attended Bob Jones for undergrad.  

 

Pensecola has been undergoing accreditation.  I don't know how far along they are in the process.    They made a huge deal about NOT wanting accreditation as they didn't need "man's empty praise."

But their teachers and nurses were not recognized and couldn't find jobs, so now apparently they do need the "praise" of man.

 

Both are Independent Fundamental Baptist though, and not strictly Calvinistic, although some are.