Switch up math or stick with what's working?

[smarson]

I don't know why I do this to myself...  I'm using Horizons math for my daughter (currently 1st grade).  It works for her, it works for me.  We both like it but I can't fight this nagging feeling that I have that I'm doing her a disservice by teaching her math the same way I learned math in the public schools.  I've looked at programs such as Singapore and Math Mammoth and they are very appealing to me.  I initially didn't go with these choices because I just didn't 'get' it when I looked at the samples online.  It wasn't what I was used to seeing for math, nor were the methods used similar to how I learned math.  

 

Now that I'm further into teaching and can better wrap my head around this 'conceptual math' and 'mental math' I'm really liking them!  So I'm wondering if I should consider switching programs for 2nd grade to MM or Singapore?  I'm not 100% certain that I need to change - I mean goodness, what we're using is working very well, she gets it, she likes it, we're not having a problems.  I'm the problem. :)  I just don't want to fail her or have her get into higher grades and struggle because we focused on 'traditional' math instead of pushing her to actually think.  

 

Along that same line, I'm currently using MUS Primer with my K4'er.  I'm not in love with it and I feel like he's really missing out on some things.  So then I wonder what to do for him for K (officially).  Should I jump into Horizons K (maybe with the B book, as A will be mostly review) or just move them both to something else.  

 

Ahh, the dilemma.   :)

 

 

[EmilyGF]

Always stick with what is working. :-) Maybe do a book of Singapore Challenging Word Problems at the rate of one page a day. Or use some Singapore intensive practice over the summer.

 

Emily

[pocjets]

I agree. Stick with what's working unless it's going to drive you crazy not to change. :) There are plenty of rocket scientist, doctors, etc, who used "traditional math" in school and are doing just fine. 

[letsplaymath]

It doesn't matter whether you stick or change --- but either way, DO make sure that you are "pushing her to actually think." It doesn't do her any good to cheerfully memorize and follow steps that don't make sense. It's the sense-making part of math that will lay a strong foundation for algebra and for high school sciences.

 

One way to push sense-making no matter what curriculum you use is to try buddy math.

[Gil]

Stick with what works for as long as it works. Quit trying to fix things that aren't broken.

[Spy Car]

Read Liping Ma's book. If this doesn't convince you to switch methods away from the algorithm-only type approaches once common in American schools, nothing will.

 

What does "working" really mean? Getting correct answers does not necessarily mean a child is building a solid foundation of mathematical understanding. When programs lack serous creative problem solving the mind is not challenged, and an unchallenged mind does not grow in the same fashion as one that is stimulated by hard problems that require reasoning.

 

Decide what your goals are, and what "working" really means to you.

 

Bill

[smarson]

Quit trying to fix things that aren't broken.

 

I know, right?!   You'd think I'd know better than to mess with a good thing! :)

 

Thanks everyone for your help!

 

And the buddy math idea is a great idea!  Perhaps we can utilize that if we have to get into the drill worksheets.  Thanks for the tip!!

[blue plaid]

Whatever you want to do, but if you are interested in trying Singapore or MM I'd say definitely go for it! Conceptual math is great-- I really wish I had been taught that way growing up. My son is doing MM 2nd grade and I think it would be an easy switch/ fine place to start.

[Ellie]

I don't know why I do this to myself...  I'm using Horizons math for my daughter (currently 1st grade).  It works for her, it works for me.  We both like it but I can't fight this nagging feeling that I have that I'm doing her a disservice by teaching her math the same way I learned math in the public schools.  I've looked at programs such as Singapore and Math Mammoth and they are very appealing to me.  I initially didn't go with these choices because I just didn't 'get' it when I looked at the samples online.  It wasn't what I was used to seeing for math, nor were the methods used similar to how I learned math.  

 

Now that I'm further into teaching and can better wrap my head around this 'conceptual math' and 'mental math' I'm really liking them!  So I'm wondering if I should consider switching programs for 2nd grade to MM or Singapore?  I'm not 100% certain that I need to change - I mean goodness, what we're using is working very well, she gets it, she likes it, we're not having a problems.  I'm the problem. :)  I just don't want to fail her or have her get into higher grades and struggle because we focused on 'traditional' math instead of pushing her to actually think.  

 

Along that same line, I'm currently using MUS Primer with my K4'er.  I'm not in love with it and I feel like he's really missing out on some things.  So then I wonder what to do for him for K (officially).  Should I jump into Horizons K (maybe with the B book, as A will be mostly review) or just move them both to something else.  

 

Ahh, the dilemma.   :)

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Don't get sucked into the newest thing. When I was homeschooling, no one talked about "conceptual math," and yet our children all learned math just fine. In fact, millions of children learned "traditional " math (whatever that is, however it is different from "conceptual" math, which no one has been able to explain to me), and they built the Golden Gate Bridge and the Empire State Building and more.

 

It it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[abba12]

Personally, I'd switch, but I grew up learning conceptual math. In my country there is a balance of both traditional and conceptual math in the schools because we are highly influenced by the Asian nations as well as by America

 

I'd prefer to make the switch early rather than decide later that it actually wasn't enough. The goal of my homeschool, personally, is to give an absolutely solid and thorough understanding of the basics, with the ability to apply them in other situations to learn more when they choose, so slowing down with a conceptual program suits MY goals better than keeping on with what's working. I PERSONALLY would prefer, in high school, for my kids to finish AOPS Algebra 1 and Geometry, as opposed to completing a traditional Pre-Calculus (I don't have to worry about transcripts and college applications in our country). I want conceptual understanding at a lower level as opposed to formulaic understanding at a higher level. Now of course the ultimate goal is AOPS Pre-calculus lol, but, that's not achievable for every student

 

So to that end, I'd rather do singapore or another method in elementary, even going back a grade if need be and pushing through if there's challenges, than to simply breeze through horizons. My kids might get 'ahead' with horizons but that is not MY personal goal for OUR homeschool. 

 

However, your goals may differ. Plenty of people have led very productive lives and gone onto higher education with traditional math. Kids who are mathy and will use advanced math in adulthood usually 'get' the conceptual stuff without direct instruction anyway, hence the people who built bridges and rockets with traditional math (and their own self-understanding of conceptual math). You certainly wont harm your child by keeping on with horizons, there's nothing wrong with horizons, in fact if your goal is to get to pre-calculus for your high school transcript I'd almost say Horizons would be better because it teaches what you need to do the problems with no extras, bells or whistles. For other goals, Singapore or another similar program may be better, but that doesn't make horizons bad. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by abba12

[mom2bee]

I'm confused as to why you need to change programs from something that you both love, when you could just adjust the way that you teach the program that you both love. What you need is a conceptual overview of math for teachers, not a new 1st-6th grade math curriculum to replace the one that you both love and that works well.

[Spy Car]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Don't get sucked into the newest thing. When I was homeschooling, no one talked about "conceptual math," and yet our children all learned math just fine. In fact, millions of children learned "traditional " math (whatever that is, however it is different from "conceptual" math, which no one has been able to explain to me), and they built the Golden Gate Bridge and the Empire State Building and more.

 

It it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

 

And here I thought you were a fan of Miquon?

 

Color me confused.

 

Algorithm-only math education is a "broken" system. It need fixing, and needs it badly. It just won't do in a 21st Century global economy. 

 

Bill

[calihil]

We are/were using CLE math and it's also very traditional. I got the Miquon orange book with the c-rods and they have really been helping my daughter with the "conceptual" math part. We are lucky to have a huge homeschool store in town and I picked up Singapore 1A for cheap so I could peruse it and I might switch after we get the base 10 facts down, I'm not sure. You could always use EducationUnboxed.com or the Miquon books to supplement to get help with the conceptual math aspect.

[sweetpea3829]

I'm in the switch camp. And better to switch now than to wait. I'm a little surprised that folks are WKing for the idea of "If it ain't broke...."

 

As Bill pointed out....it IS broke. But I guess that might depend on your goals for math education. If your goal is for your student to get the right answers than the plug n' chug algorithm method is fine (and certainly, this isn't necessarily wrong...it's the goal I have for my oldest dyscalculic kiddo).

 

But if your goal is a deep understanding of WHY the answers are correct than the plug n'chug approach is broken. Because that won't lead to a deep understanding of math.

 

Yeah, many people have been successful despite years of plug n' chug. But in my opinion, those are the folks that intuitively get math at a deeper level anyways. Most of us do not and would have benefited from conceptual math.

 

I say if you are inclined to switch....than switch.

[kateingr]

I've personally switched a couple of times and been glad that I did. My take on it: Why it's okay to change math curriculum

[Jackie]

I'd switch. I'll live with "it's working" if other things have failed but otherwise I aim higher.

[Spy Car]

I'm confused as to why you need to change programs from something that you both love, when you could just adjust the way that you teach the program that you both love. What you need is a conceptual overview of math for teachers, not a new 1st-6th grade math curriculum to replace the one that you both love and that works well.

The reason is clear. The OP reaIizes she is perpetuating the same same sort of shallow math education that she had to her child. So the program isn't "loved" in her mind, it is a source of gnawing discontent. People who don't have the experience of depth in their own math educations generally need outside resources, including math curriculum, to help them teach things they were not taught.. This isn'tt confusing" in the slightest.

 

There is a world of difference between teaching of depth vs the so-called " traditional" approach. One who is feeling the inadequacy of the latter is far better acting to change things early on than living a life of regrets. When one home educates one must take responsibility for ones choices, so better to make good choices.

 

Bill

[momee]

I'm switching too.  I have a friend with a child one year younger going through Righstart A and now is in level B.

 

My daughter did a few weeks of B so I know where she's going when she talks about her child's math abilities.  I called her yesterday to check in and see how it has been going.  My main concern is that there are no drills and will those math facts we are all so concerned with in America be as cemented in a program like Rightstart as in something like Rod and Staff.

 

My daughter does have the facts of addition and subtraction down for numbers 1 through 11.  We've drilled and killed them for two years now with Rod and Staff.  However, if you were to ask her WHY 5+6 is 11 and 6+6 is 12 - she cannot give you an answer.  She doesn't know how to explain addition to me, really.  She can recite - but isn't understanding why.

 

My friend's child however, just did a problem (in her head mind you) where she was adding two 4 digit numbers but was doing it from left to right.  She caught herself as to making the mistake because she realized one of the columns would need to carry over.  She adjusted and got the answer correct.  At 6 years old and understood (albeit her vocabulary was young to fully describe) why.

 

For her to intuitively know about carrying and auto-correct herself in such a situation is one of the aims I'm trying to reach for with math. 

 

As you can see from the above, I don't think Rod and Staff is going to get us there.

 

Also, I talked to the owner of Videotext Algebra yesterday about a different student - he calls himself "the WHY guy" and he said he hoped I was using Rightstart with my youngest to help her understand the mathematical concepts from the beginning.

[Faithful_Steward]

I used Saxon for years because I teach conceptually. I assumed I had intuited my own conceptual understanding and my own children would do the same. I conveniently forgot that my grade 5-6 math teacher was Hungarian and I spent years in math competitions that taught me problem-solving skills. It took many years of being vaguely dissatisfied with traditional math methods before I realized what was lacking. So I switched not because of a bandwagon, but because I wanted a program that explicitly presented concepts I had been presenting on my own (not to mention the outstanding word problems).It saves me TONS of time.

 

Why don't you give Singapore a try? Keep Horizons around in case you hate it, but it isn't a lifetime commitment, ya know? ðŸ˜

[Faithful_Steward]

I also think incremental/spiral programs get more difficult as the concepts get more difficult. I haven't seen the way Right Start handles this, so there may be a method that works. But who wants to learn long division or fractions and only have a few problems before zooming off to focus on something else the next day?? Crazy-making!!!

[wintermom]

The reason is clear. The OP reaIizes she is perpetuating the same same sort of shallow math education that she had to her child. So the program isn't "loved" in her mind, it is a source of gnawing discontent. People who don't have the experience of depth in their own math educations generally need outside resources, including math curriculum, to help them teach things they were not taught.. This isn'tt confusing" in the slightest.

 

There is a world of difference between teaching of depth vs the so-called " traditional" approach. One who is feeling the inadequacy of the latter is far better acting to change things early on than living a life of regrets. When one home educates one must take responsibility for ones choices, so better to make good choices.

 

Bill

 

This was definitely me! I was pretty good at the traditional, fairly shallow math that I learned in school, but did not have the deep understanding or any exposure to concepts not covered in the tradiational books. Not only that, but my endurance for tackling math problems that were not straight forward with numbers that easily worked out was very limited. There was a whole world of math I didn't even know existed, and I'm VERY glad I found it so that I could learn it together with my dc.

 

When my oldest dc was ready to try a math contest from the University of Waterloo, we did a couple practice tests and this is where I first discovered this "world" of math I'd never encountered. Part A and B of the test is the "traditional math," while Part C is never covered in any math book I had. Here is the link for you to see for yourself. The Gauss test for grade 7 is where we first began our new math adventure. I wish I had started working on these concepts with my dc sooner. But better late than never. http://cemc.uwaterloo.ca/contests/past_contests.html

 

Singapore Math is a wonderful program, but Beast Academy and Art of Problem Solving is where these challenging problems are covered. Now that I've been doing BA  and AoPS with my ds, I can successfully complete more of those Part C problems from the tests.  My dc and I also have started to develop the confidence to tackile more and more challenging areas, such as codes, logic problems. And when they're old enough for comprehesive Physics, they will be more than ready to tackle the crazy numbers there! ;)

Edited January 28, 2016 by wintermom

[smarson]

The OP reaIizes she is perpetuating the same same sort of shallow math education that she had to her child.

People who don't have the experience of depth in their own math educations generally need outside resources, including math curriculum, to help them teach things they were not taught.. 

 

There is a world of difference between teaching of depth vs the so-called " traditional" approach. One who is feeling the inadequacy of the latter is far better acting to change things early on than living a life of regrets. When one home educates one must take responsibility for ones choices, so better to make good choices.

 

Bill

 

You hit the head on the nail.  I did fine in math, was even considered 'advanced' when I was in school.  But if the problems in the homework didn't look the same as the examples in the text I had no idea how to solve them!  I could duplicate the process but I had absolutely no understanding of the 'why'.  I realize that's not always important but it did end up hurting me in math in college. Fortunately I have a profession where I mostly do basic math and nothing too complex but I see the way others think and 'get' math.  My husband is a good example of this.  He's brilliant but learned in the same public school system, the same 'traditional' methods.  He is blessed in that he's just extremely math minded and made up different ways to solve problems in his head.  That was never something that even remotely crossed my mind as a possibility.  I was told to do X and I did X using the same process.  Easy Peasy.  If something deviated, I was lost.

 

I am concerned that this kind of thinking isn't going to be sufficient or enough for my kids.  We do live in different times, with different requirements.  Yes, there are many brilliant people out there who learned 'traditional' math just as I did who are extremely successful.  But I want them to understand the 'why'.  And for me, I don't know the why's to teach them!  I just know that 2+2=4.  Always.  :)

[smarson]

Wintermom - exactly!!  I'm planning to try Beast out but I'll have to wait until 3rd Grade for her, as 2nd wont be available until she's already in 3rd. :)  

[sweetpea3829]

You hit the head on the nail. I did fine in math, was even considered 'advanced' when I was in school. But if the problems in the homework didn't look the same as the examples in the text I had no idea how to solve them! I could duplicate the process but I had absolutely no understanding of the 'why'. I realize that's not always important but it did end up hurting me in math in college. Fortunately I have a profession where I mostly do basic math and nothing too complex but I see the way others think and 'get' math. My husband is a good example of this. He's brilliant but learned in the same public school system, the same 'traditional' methods. He is blessed in that he's just extremely math minded and made up different ways to solve problems in his head. That was never something that even remotely crossed my mind as a possibility. I was told to do X and I did X using the same process. Easy Peasy. If something deviated, I was lost.

 

I am concerned that this kind of thinking isn't going to be sufficient or enough for my kids. We do live in different times, with different requirements. Yes, there are many brilliant people out there who learned 'traditional' math just as I did who are extremely successful. But I want them to understand the 'why'. And for me, I don't know the why's to teach them! I just know that 2+2=4. Always. :)

 

Pretty much, you and I are twins, lol. I did very well in math right up until high school and then tanked in Algebra. In fact, my weakness in conceptual math impacted my science as well, and limited my career choices because there was no way I could pass the chemistry and physiology courses required for many of the science fields I was interested in.

 

I like Singapore and I like how it takes my kids' understanding deeper.

 

I love Beast, lol!

[smarson]

Pretty much, you and I are twins, lol. I did very well in math right up until high school and then tanked in Algebra. In fact, my weakness in conceptual math impacted my science as well, and limited my career choices because there was no way I could pass the chemistry and physiology courses required for many of the science fields I was interested in.

 

I like Singapore and I like how it takes my kids' understanding deeper.

 

I love Beast, lol!

 

 

I plan on going to Beast, my daughter will just have to wait until she gets up to 3 because 2 isn't going to be available next year when we'd need it.  I'm not sure if she'll love it but I know the boys will adore it!!

[yvonne]

Always stick with what is working. :-) Maybe do a book of Singapore Challenging Word Problems at the rate of one page a day. Or use some Singapore intensive practice over the summer.

 

 

:iagree: :iagree:

 

Having something solid that works and is getting done is invaluable!  Stick with it and add in some Singapore and see how it goes.

 

My boys did Horizons 1-6 alongside Singapore Math 1-7A. They had no trouble at all doing both and they did very well with them. (If I had it to do over, I'd have skipped Horizons 6 and gone directly to Dolciani pre-algebra. After Singapore 1-6, Horizons 6 wasn't really necessary.)  They have a facility with numbers that I wish I had had.

 

I started out doing the same with my daughter, but it became too much for her. She's just not into math. She got through Singapore 3, and we dropped it and continued using just Horizons through Horizons 6.  She's doing Algebra 1 this year in 8th and is doing fine. She doesn't love it, but her stamina when it comes to math is better and she's holding her own.

[letsplaymath]

You hit the head on the nail.  I did fine in math, was even considered 'advanced' when I was in school.  But if the problems in the homework didn't look the same as the examples in the text I had no idea how to solve them!  I could duplicate the process but I had absolutely no understanding of the 'why'. ...  I was told to do X and I did X using the same process.  Easy Peasy.  If something deviated, I was lost.

 

I am concerned that this kind of thinking isn't going to be sufficient or enough for my kids. ...  I want them to understand the 'why'.  And for me, I don't know the why's to teach them! 

 

For me, this was the greatest benefit of Singapore math. The teacher learns right along with the kids --- or at least that's the way it worked at our house.

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by letsplaymath

[PineFarmMom]

I wouldn't switch. I would add some things to it. There are some moms on here who have been homeschooling for years, and homeschooling quite well I might add, who use horizons and feel it is a great program. I think there is use for both types. We use Singapore and like it. We switched to saxon 8/7 after 6a and my son is really appreciating what it has to offer as well. I am considering using singapore and horizons for my upcoming 1st grader. I'm still playing around with some options.