Is a huge amount of grammar instruction (diagramming etc.) necessary for high school? (Potter's School)

[Shellydon]

My Dd is in Potter's School English this year.  We love the writing portion of the class, but the grammar is absolutely overwhelming and killing my daugher's love of learning.  Is really in depth grammar instruction necessary in high school level English? 

[Erica in OR]

High school was where I cut off specific grammar instruction, beyond any corrections to be made within writing. We did Rod & Staff English through 8th grade, and I felt that was a solid enough foundation enough for any writing that would be done for high school and the future. R&S offers 9th and 10th grade books, but much less of the content is grammar-related. It was enough for us.

 

Erica in OR

[umsami]

I don't think so.  I went to a very well-regarded college prep school and they basically did one year of intensive grammar in 7th grade and left it at that.  Yes, a bit was covered here and there....mostly in the form of revising essays and such.... but I don't remember any formal grammar instruction in high school. 

[Shellydon]

Thanks everyone.  I will need to find a different online course for us.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Agreeing with the pps.  We used Analytical Grammar in 6th-7th-8th grade.  In 9th, we used their reinforcement book weekly.  Nothing after that except wrt writing.

[lmrich]

However, learning grammar goes beyond learning grammar. Learning grammar develops a more logical brain; it teaches analytical skills. I think it also teaches kids to slow down and really examine sentences. Just my 2 cents.

[Sunshine State Sue]

However, learning grammar goes beyond learning grammar. Learning grammar develops a more logical brain; it teaches analytical skills. I think it also teaches kids to slow down and really examine sentences. Just my 2 cents.

:iagree:

I assumed that the dd had already learned her grammar and the intensive grammar instruction was just beating a dead horse for her.  I could be wrong, though.  Perhaps her grammar skills are weak and that is why she is overwhelmed?

 

[Tranquility7]

My Dd is in Potter's School English this year.  We love the writing portion of the class, but the grammar is absolutely overwhelming and killing my daugher's love of learning.  Is really in depth grammar instruction necessary in high school level English? 

 

What exactly are they doing? What grammar concepts are they learning, and what do the lectures and assignments actually entail as far as grammar goes? How much grammar has your DD had in the past, and how much of what she is learning in this class is review (possibly boring) versus new (possibly daunting)? Are they using a particular program?

 

I don't yet have a child in high school, but my goal is that we will be finished with grammar by then (we tend to do a lot of grammar and we do discuss it explicitly during writing lessons as well as during Latin, etc.). However, I can imagine an online writing class having a mix of kids who have had some grammar and kids who haven't, and thus having to include a fair amt of grammar instruction in order to get everyone on the same page (no pun intended!).

[Bootsie]

I am not familiar with Potter's School, but many of the college students I teach do not have a firm grasp of grammar.  Their writing suffers from it, and they do not understand how to correct their writing errors.  I am beginning to see that their reading also suffers.  Learning a foreign language is also more difficult for them because they don't understand the logic of sentence structure.  

[Shellydon]

What exactly are they doing? What grammar concepts are they learning, and what do the lectures and assignments actually entail as far as grammar goes? How much grammar has your DD had in the past, and how much of what she is learning in this class is review (possibly boring) versus new (possibly daunting)? Are they using a particular program?

 

I don't yet have a child in high school, but my goal is that we will be finished with grammar by then (we tend to do a lot of grammar and we do discuss it explicitly during writing lessons as well as during Latin, etc.). However, I can imagine an online writing class having a mix of kids who have had some grammar and kids who haven't, and thus having to include a fair amt of grammar instruction in order to get everyone on the same page (no pun intended!).

 

We have done grammar from 1st all the way through.    In Potter's School, they are doing extensive diagramming of complex sentences, identifying sentence patterns and a variety of other grammar related work.  I am not opposed to grammar at all, I just would like more emphasis on writing and composition at this stage and an occasional review of grammar rules. 

[Bootsie]

I think there is great benefit to diagramming complex sentences and that doing so will improve writing.  It helps students make sure they don't have run-on sentences, that the subject agrees with the verb, and that they have parallel structure with all of the parts in a series.  A thorough understanding of complex sentence structure also helps a student effectively combine sentences using dependent clauses to avoid choppy writing.

 

I also thing there is a benefit to diagramming that goes beyond the English class.  I think it helps train the mind to understand structure and provides practice for logical, consistent thinking.  For example, in economics we use lots of charts to represent information and model the market.  I have a hunch that students who have diagrammed sentences and are used to organizing information repeatedly in a standardized format have the skills in place and have exercised the part of the brain that makes thinking about the market structure in an organized way easier.  

[Tranquility7]

We have done grammar from 1st all the way through.    In Potter's School, they are doing extensive diagramming of complex sentences, identifying sentence patterns and a variety of other grammar related work.  I am not opposed to grammar at all, I just would like more emphasis on writing and composition at this stage and an occasional review of grammar rules. 

Hmmm, that is interesting, and to me, sounds rather appealing in a writing class. Too often, writing instruction completely UNDERestimates the importance of grammar (sometimes even outright disparaging it) when in reality, a mature understanding of grammar can be a huge benefit in writing and thinking. I find it also simplifies writing instruction since proper grammatical terms can be used to express a concept rather than a whole slew of examples trying to demonstrate a pattern (not  that examples are bad, just not necessarily efficient when they are constantly required).

 

That being said, sometimes grammar instruction is not presented in a way that actually connects it to writing. Sometimes it seems too abstract and leaves a student thinking, "So who cares?"

 

Is it possible for your DD (or you) to talk to the teacher? Perhaps the teacher could clarify how what they are doing is connected to actual writing and how DD will use that knowledge to improve as a writer? (Btw, I'm not questioning whether the grammar IS connected to writing (IMHO, it definitely IS), merely suggesting that the teacher is not making that connection explicit in class.) Also, if this is the second semester of a year-long class, maybe the second-semester will emphasize more writing now that grammar is covered?

 

I think there is great benefit to diagramming complex sentences and that doing so will improve writing.  It helps students make sure they don't have run-on sentences, that the subject agrees with the verb, and that they have parallel structure with all of the parts in a series.  A thorough understanding of complex sentence structure also helps a student effectively combine sentences using dependent clauses to avoid choppy writing.

 

I also thing there is a benefit to diagramming that goes beyond the English class.  I think it helps train the mind to understand structure and provides practice for logical, consistent thinking.  For example, in economics we use lots of charts to represent information and model the market.  I have a hunch that students who have diagrammed sentences and are used to organizing information repeatedly in a standardized format have the skills in place and have exercised the part of the brain that makes thinking about the market structure in an organized way easier.  

Yes to the first part.

And yes to the second... although in OP's defense, enrolling her DD in a writing class means OP wants her DD to learn *writing*... not that those other things aren't also very useful and necessary, but they aren't the same thing as writing. Logical and consistent thinking could also be learned by doing math, but if a writing teacher started making her students write out geometry proofs, we would all think that was a little crazy, wouldn't we? And if she explained herself by saying it was a good way to learn logical consistent thought, I would agree, but still remind her that it is a writing class. So anyway, I don't disagree at all with diagramming sentences and the manifold benefits of the activity (we are diagramming fools around here!), but if they are doing it in a writing class, I think the teacher needs to be able to explain and demonstrate why it is beneficial to writing.

[JoanHomeEd]

I think it depends on the kid (thankfully, not the parent, because I have terrible grammar!). DC finished grammar with lots of diagramming before high school without any specific revision and it did not affect high school English. In fact, DC earned perfect scores for AP Lit (junior year) and SAT Reading + Writing (senior year). 

Edited January 5, 2016 by JoanHomeEd

[Junie]

I taught high school English using Abeka.  Abeka is very heavy on grammar -- diagramming complex sentences, review after review after review of the parts of speech.

 

But, the kids generally were not good writers.  They learned the formula for the diagramming/parts of speech, but they didn't know how to translate that to their own writing.

 

And I didn't have time to teach good writing because the grammar curriculum was required by the administration.

 

IMO, writing is a much more important skill and can be taught without excessive grammar instruction.

 

(For my own kids, we do Abeka grammar through 6th grade.)

[pehp]

I don't think so! I did formal grammar in 7th grade.  I got a full scholarship to a writing program for my Master's degree and then got a law degree and won best Moot Court brief, so I don't think lack of formal grammar in high school impaired me at all.  

 

I think, for the most part, that reading good books is the best teaching tool....some light grammar work is good, but definitely don't kill the love of learning.  I will also say that I have a friend who LOVED formal grammar but has a hard time actually writing as a result (she's a writer)--sort of paralyzed by perfectionism.  I'd rather be imperfect and still creating.......but, to each her own. :) 

[Shellydon]

After thinking through and reading the comments, I think we'll forgo English 2 next year at Potter's School and I'll teach lit and writing at home.  The following year, I'll again outsource.  Either tackle Potter's School English 2 and revisit grammar, or something like WTMA Rhetoric class.    So hard to made decisions!

[Shellydon]

I don't think so! I did formal grammar in 7th grade.  I got a full scholarship to a writing program for my Master's degree and then got a law degree and won best Moot Court brief, so I don't think lack of formal grammar in high school impaired me at all.  

 

I think, for the most part, that reading good books is the best teaching tool....some light grammar work is good, but definitely don't kill the love of learning.  I will also say that I have a friend who LOVED formal grammar but has a hard time actually writing as a result (she's a writer)--sort of paralyzed by perfectionism.  I'd rather be imperfect and still creating.......but, to each her own. :)

 

I had nearly zero grammar  in school.  Underline the subject once, predicate twice. Adverbs end in -ly, circle the direct object.  This was in 6th and 7th.  I also did well in college completing a tough Bachelor's program and obtaining my M.S.   BUT, I want my kids to have a better education, so I worry and stress. :)

[Corraleno]

After thinking through and reading the comments, I think we'll forgo English 2 next year at Potter's School and I'll teach lit and writing at home.  The following year, I'll again outsource.  Either tackle Potter's School English 2 and revisit grammar, or something like WTMA Rhetoric class.    So hard to made decisions!

 

Lukeion offers a one-semester course in Advanced Research Writing each spring; you might consider combining that with your at-home literature class for next year.

[yvonne]

Lukeion also offers a one semester grammar course, The Barbarian Diagrammarian, that I imagine would be a pretty thorough crash course in grammar for the older student who hasn't done much grammar before.  Because Lukeion's main focus is Latin and Greek, and because both of those require a solid understanding and use of grammar, I bet the Barrs would be excellent teachers of English grammar. It's only one semester, and I bet an older student, even one who's had only spotty grammar so far, could get a pretty good grasp of grammar in that time frame, with serious focus and an excellent instructor.  Regan teaches it, and my son who takes Greek really likes him as a teacher, so it might also be a less painful (dare I say "fun"?) way of getting the grammar you need. :)

[yvonne]

Also, take a look at TPS's English class sequence/"map." In the early classes, English 1-3, there are two paths, one with more grammar and one with less. They have a placement test that can help determine which path a student needs. (ETA: There is only one TPS Eng 2 choice and that one includes grammar.)

 

English 1 & 2 are more for junior high, I think. Last year, in 7th, my daughter took the English 1: Journey into Narnia class which has less grammar class than the regular Eng 1 class. The literature & writing strands of the class were excellent. She loved that part! The grammar strand was tedious for her because she had a solid grammar foundation between Rod & Staff 2-7 and the first half of Wheelock's Latin. Neither of us can remember for sure, but it seems to me that the grammar in JtN was only done during the first semester.   We didn't do TPS English 2 this year, partly because neither she nor I wanted to do much grammar another year. If we were going to spend precious time on grammar, I wanted it to be Rod & Staff 8. Nothing beats R&S for grammar.

 

My boys did English 3: Lit Survey in 9th. There was some grammar, but grammar certainly wasn't a big part of it. The other Eng 3: Foundations class spends more time on grammar. (BTW: TPS's Eng 3: Lit Survey w/ Linnea Geno was a truly excellent, solid, rigorous class!)

 

Having looked at numerous online English classes and having had my students take a handful, my impression is that, for the more rigorous online Eng. classes, at least a basic grammar foundation is necessary.  It's only anecdotal, but four online instructors, whom I would consider strong teachers and with whom I've communicated regarding classes and why there's so much grammar in higher level (gr. 7-9) courses, have said that the majority of students come in with such a weak grammar foundation that they have to do some remediation. So, time gets spent on trying to teach grammar well enough and quickly enough to get those students up to speed.

 

It's a difficult situation all around.... students with a strong grammar foundation find reviewing tedious, and students with a weak grammar background find it difficult to keep up with and master the material.

 

For a student in 8th grade, who does not have a strong grammar background, I woudl try Lukeion's Barbarian Diagrammarian class in 8th.  Yes, it will be hard core grammar and take some focused, serious effort, but, if the student really built a solid foundation in grammar in that one semester, s/he might be able to spend more time on lit & writing in high school and less time remediating grammar.

 

Alternatively, some families here like Analytical Grammar as a fast path to grammar. Doesn't work for everyone --my daughter's English class used it for the first quarter of this year and both she and I loathed it, esp. after R&S-- but some folks seem to have success with it, so that might be another option for grammar for the older student.

Edited January 5, 2016 by yvonne