So, a group of armed terrorists has occupied a federal building

[redsquirrel]

They are also destroying public property, not exactly a surprise

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_bundy_militant.html#incart_big-photo

 

and this is an interesting article about the planning that went into the takeover of public land.

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/bundy_militia_leader_plotted_o.html#incart_big-photo

[albeto.]

Bundys' little militia game is costing taxpayers approx $60-75,000 per day. The bill will hit $million in the next few days. Their supporters don't seem to have enough money to offset the costs, although some wish they could help overthrow the government, but must wait on government checks to support such an adventure.

 

People who send food and supplies are only prolonging these costs (the folks who sent the "box of dicks" is keeping it fun, however). This romantic, amorphous appeal to revolutionize the hearts of Americans has failed. Spectacularly. 

 

 

More funny memes here.

 

 

[Spy Car]

I realize this Ammon Bundy may be mad-as-a-hatter, but (despite my best efforts to the contrary) I can't help but admire his plaid woolen jacket. Is that Pendelton, or what?

 

One man's terrorist is another man's fashion-plate :D

 

Bill

[Pam in CT]

re: Occupiers' allegation that they are standing up for "local" rights:

Here is the statement that the county sheriff put out yesterday.  It seems that members of law enforcement and employees of the US Fish and Wildlife dept are being harassed and stalked in an attempt to intimidate them. The sheriff is telling them to stop

 

http://portlandtribune.com/pt/9-news/288465-165596-harney-county-sheriff-warns-of-intimidation-aimed-at-federal-employees

 

When those who are now occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge first came to town several months ago, we started to see an up-tick in the number of vandalism, harassment and intimidation reports. In recent days, they issued a “call to action,†which resulted in the arrival of numerous outside militia members. They claim to be here in peace, but we continue to see behavior by some that is concerning. There are continual reports of law enforcement officers and community members being followed home; of people sitting in cars outside their homes, observing their movements and those of their families; and of people following them and their families as they move around the community. While not direct physical threats, these activities are clearly designed to try to intimidate.

 

Specifically, U.S. Fish and Wildlife, which manages the refuge, has told me that while their employees are physically safe, this is clearly a distressful situation for all involved. As this issue has developed over the past week, employees and their loved ones have reported a number of uncomfortable incidences in which unknown individuals from outside our community have driven past slowly or idled in front of their homes, observing the residents and their activities. In addition, self-identified militia members have attempted to engage employees and family members in debates about their status as Federal employees. Many of these confrontations are taking place as their employees are grocery shopping, running errands with their families and trying to lead their day-to day lives.

 

Let me be clear: the law enforcement agencies – those that are local as well as the sheriff’s deputies from around the state, the Oregon State Police troopers and the FBI Agents – will not be intimidated from doing their jobs. Everyone on the law enforcement side is working together to bring a peaceful resolution to this situation, and the behavior of these folks from outside of our community only serves to escalate the situation unnecessarily.

 

The people on the refuge – and those who they have called to our community – obviously have no consideration for the wishes or needs of the people of Harney County. If they did, they, too, would work to bring this situation to a peaceful close.

 

I was equally troubled by the reports of yesterday's town meeting:

 

Oregon standoff: Harney County residents put disagreements aside, ask Bundy to leave, particularly the last remarks of the night, made by a 15 year old high school student named Ashlie Presley, who evidently got a near-unanimous standing ovation with "I shouldn't have to be scared in my own hometown."

 

I truly cannot understand how these squatters can look themselves in the mirror and say, "yeah.  I'm standing up for local rights."  Every single local stakeholder, even those theoretically on the same side of the ranching issues, has asked that they leave.  I'm trying to understand, but I cannot.

[albeto.]

I truly cannot understand how these squatters can look themselves in the mirror and say, "yeah.  I'm standing up for local rights."  Every single local stakeholder, even those theoretically on the same side of the ranching issues, has asked that they leave.  I'm trying to understand, but I cannot.

 

It's called delusional thinking. It's not logical, it's not rational, but it is sincerely held. People are willing to kill and die for delusional beliefs all the time. These guys have declared their intent to stay there for years. Years. Inspiring some romantic migration for freedom, despite any indication precious few people are interested (like, less than a couple hundred in a population of over 300 million, and that's being terribly generous). No, it doesn't make sense when held up to a reality check, but then again we have a culture in which sincere, personally held beliefs are often respected regardless of any lack of evidence, evidence to the contrary, or how bizarre they might seem when looked at realistically, so long as they fall within certain parameters. Patriotism is within those parameters. 

[Pam in CT]

re: sincerely held beliefs

It's called delusional thinking. It's not logical, it's not rational, but it is sincerely held. People are willing to kill and die for delusional beliefs all the time. These guys have declared their intent to stay there for years. Years. Inspiring some romantic migration for freedom, despite any indication precious few people are interested (like, less than a couple hundred in a population of over 300 million, and that's being terribly generous). No, it doesn't make sense when held up to a reality check, but then again we have a culture in which sincere, personally held beliefs are often respected regardless of any lack of evidence, evidence to the contrary, or how bizarre they might seem when looked at realistically, so long as they fall within certain parameters. Patriotism is within those parameters. 

 

I dunno, albeto.  I don't think "patriotism" covers this one.  I love this country as fiercely as anyone, and I do understand that what "patriotism" looks like varies widely.  People have different values, and what love of country looks like, is seen by each of us through the lens of those values.  So what we each experience as "patriotism" manifests differently.  I do understand that bit.

 

It's the "standing up for local rights" part that I can't understand.  It's a very specific claim.  It has a specific meaning.  The actual local stakeholders in this particular locality, even the ones who are sympathetic to the ranchers' issues, have asked them to leave.  How can the occupiers believe they are somehow representing the interests of people who have asked them to leave?  *That's* where I'm stuck.

[redsquirrel]

re: Occupiers' allegation that they are standing up for "local" rights:

 

I was equally troubled by the reports of yesterday's town meeting:

 

Oregon standoff: Harney County residents put disagreements aside, ask Bundy to leave, particularly the last remarks of the night, made by a 15 year old high school student named Ashlie Presley, who evidently got a near-unanimous standing ovation with "I shouldn't have to be scared in my own hometown."

 

I truly cannot understand how these squatters can look themselves in the mirror and say, "yeah.  I'm standing up for local rights."  Every single local stakeholder, even those theoretically on the same side of the ranching issues, has asked that they leave.  I'm trying to understand, but I cannot.

 

Because they tell themselves that those who don't agree with them just haven't been educated.  They don't understand. They are sheeple, who have drunk the government kool-aid and prefer living in 'slavery' to freedom.  Their opinion doesn't really count, they can be ignored. Once they are properly educated they will come around.

 

The sheriff, well, he's not the right kind of sheriff. The people in the town? They've been sucking off the government tit for so long they can't imagine living like free men, like the Bundys. Everyone else is in shackles of ignorance.

 

If only we could all be just like them, think like they think, know what they know, believe what they believe, then the problems facing this country would go away.  They are doing us all a favour by doing this, by showing us the way. They hope to inspire copycats and followers to take their place when they are gloriously martyred for the cause. Because their death, their willingness to die for 'freedom' will open our eyes and make us see.

 

 

It's a fairly typical mindset of extremists and fundamentalists of all stripes

 

[albeto.]

I dunno, albeto.  I don't think "patriotism" covers this one. 

 

I don't think so either, but they make references to the constitution all the time, they make reference to the rights of the citizens, and so I think they are motivated by their understanding of patriotism. And patriotism is a well respected ideology. My thought is that because patriotism is generally well respected, people want to give it leeway that isn't generally extended to other ideologies. So their "crossing the line" is met with more hesitation and patience than other examples of "crossing the line," if that makes sense. There's also the race and religion privileges tied into the whole thing, so I don't mean to imply it's just patriotism.

 

It's the "standing up for local rights" part that I can't understand.  It's a very specific claim.  It has a specific meaning.  The actual local stakeholders in this particular locality, even the ones who are sympathetic to the ranchers' issues, have asked them to leave.  How can the occupiers believe they are somehow representing the interests of people who have asked them to leave?  *That's* where I'm stuck.

 

That's part of the delusion. The definition doesn't apply how they're using it, and yet they assume this use is valid. Evidence to the contrary, such as you point out, is simply ignored. That's how delusions work - evidence to the contrary is ignored. There's also probably a psychological factor going on now. More than ever, the cognitive dissonance is likely to inspire them to hang on to their ideals in spite of the obvious fact that they don't have the support of the people to whom they are appealing. Rather than face failure, how much more likely is it they'll hunker down even more? People who have a particularly strong belief system often ignore reasons that go against that belief system, and respond with an even stronger faith in it when challenged. These guys have come to peace with the idea of dying for these beliefs. I think it's more likely they'll desire a "martyr's death" than consider their beliefs aren't reasonable.

[justasque]

re: sincerely held beliefs

 

I dunno, albeto.  I don't think "patriotism" covers this one.  I love this country as fiercely as anyone, and I do understand that what "patriotism" looks like varies widely.  People have different values, and what love of country looks like, is seen by each of us through the lens of those values.  So what we each experience as "patriotism" manifests differently.  I do understand that bit.

 

It's the "standing up for local rights" part that I can't understand.  It's a very specific claim.  It has a specific meaning.  The actual local stakeholders in this particular locality, even the ones who are sympathetic to the ranchers' issues, have asked them to leave.  How can the occupiers believe they are somehow representing the interests of people who have asked them to leave?  *That's* where I'm stuck.

 

I don't think there's a lot of logical thinking behind this movement.  As to the local control part, I am guessing the best we can do to understand it is to put it into the "We, the big guys with the guns and the cammo, know what's good for you, and the fact that you aren't on board, or flat-out disagree, just shows how ignorant/uninformed/uneducated you are compared to us" kind of area.  I can't even imagine the term "stakeholders" coming out of their mouths.  They think they know what's best for the locals, even if the locals can't see it.  

 

These people, lets remember, thought you could have the federal postal service deliver snacks to your armed takeover of federal property.

 

I have mixed feelings about, and don't agree with all of, this article (and there are language/stereotype issues with it), but it and the following comments section does bring up some interesting points.  From the comments:  "The teachable moment here is that these people are imbeciles. They protest against land being federal property by draping the flag of the federal government over the sign. They announce their intention to “take land back for the people†by seizing public land with the avowed intention of seeing it used for private purposes."

 

We see this too with their poor protesting skills.  They have the guns and have spent a pretty penny on fancy cammo gear, but they've neglected to do the work that would help them learn from other movements.  

 

Congressman John Lewis (of Selma and March on Washington fame*) told a group of students I was chaperoning that he and other civil rights leaders STUDIED nonviolence and civil disobedience.  They read Ghandi, and others, and went to activist training workshops.  They had clear goals for their marches and other actions, and a realistic idea of how to target the people who could actually make their demands into reality. 

 

These guys, not so much.

 

That said, while I want them out of there, I want it to happen in such a way that they end up looking kind of sad, rather than as heroes of the radical right.  I think so far, LEO has done a good job of this. 

 

 

*Although lately, Rep. Lewis is famous for cosplaying as himself at Comic Con.  How cool is that?

[Pam in CT]

Sigh.  I truly do wish I could understand what this is really about from the perspective of the people driving it.  Whether or not I would agree with their  specific operational goals if I understood them (nearly two weeks in, I still don't get what concrete action they want what specific individual to DO); and even though I know I do not agree with their tactics, still, I wish I understood.

 

(albeto and redsquirrel and justasque, please forgive me for snipping your words out of context in my riffing here; I'll delete if you prefer.  I don't mean to shine a spotlight on your specific word choice; I'm just sort of thinking aloud....)    

 

In general, I am pretty loathe to presume that other people, even if I disagree strongly with them, are 'delusional' or 'not logical' or 'not rational'... 

 

 

It's called delusional thinking. It's not logical, it's not rational...

 

or elitist...

Because they tell themselves that those who don't agree with them just haven't been educated.  They don't understand. They are sheeple, who have drunk the government kool-aid and prefer living in 'slavery' to freedom.  Their opinion doesn't really count, they can be ignored. Once they are properly educated they will come around.

 

The sheriff, well, he's not the right kind of sheriff. The people in the town? They've been sucking off the government tit for so long they can't imagine living like free men, like the Bundys. Everyone else is in shackles of ignorance....

 

or patronizing...

 
I don't think there's a lot of logical thinking behind this movement.  As to the local control part, I am guessing the best we can do to understand it is to put it into the "We, the big guys with the guns and the cammo, know what's good for you, and the fact that you aren't on board, or flat-out disagree, just shows how ignorant/uninformed/uneducated you are compared to us" kind of area.  I can't even imagine the term "stakeholders" coming out of their mouths.  They think they know what's best for the locals, even if the locals can't see it. ...

 

 

Because generally, most people are NOT those things, even when I disagree with them strongly.

 

But I have spent a crazy stupid amount of time, following this story, which frankly frightens me in the near term and even more so for what it says about our ability and willingness as a society to work through problems via Using Our Words.  

 

And I cannot get there.  I do not understand.

 

 

 

 

 

Very cool re: Rep Lewis.  

[redsquirrel]

Why don't feds try to oust the militants?  Here is what a local reporter found out when she asked around

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/why_dont_feds_try_to_oust_oreg.html#incart_big-photo

[TravelingChris]

Not only is the fish biologist not able to do her work and of course the refuge manager and any other employees, but at a minimum, potentially visitors to the refuge are refused access.  JOdi Sue, if you substitute the Grand Canyon National Park and think if the protestors took over that and refused all the workers and all the visitors to visit that park, while threatening violence to federal officials, would you still think it was not serious?

 

As a birder, I am not happy with a refuge for migratory birds being taken over.  I am confused as to why a protest about BLM lands and practices is holing up in a National Wildlife Refuge which is administered by a different agency.  But I believe these people are anti government and don't care which federal agency they hinder.  I wouldn't be surprised that they don't pay taxes either as I think many of the sovereign citizen folks don't either.  

 

 

[Ravin]

I'm sure the fact that it's the middle of winter, not migration season, and tourism is ordinarily at a low ebb, factors in there somewhere. Certainly not letting them have a chance to play martyr is wise.

 

I still think that things would not be this calm if they weren't white and Christian (and for these cultural purposes, in the 21st century Mormon certainly can be lumped in to "Christian").

[albeto.]

Sigh.  I truly do wish I could understand what this is really about from the perspective of the people driving it.  Whether or not I would agree with their  specific operational goals if I understood them (nearly two weeks in, I still don't get what concrete action they want what specific individual to DO); and even though I know I do not agree with their tactics, still, I wish I understood....

 

I hear ya. I do to, and for the same reasons. After all, we're the same species, right? We ought to be able to speak the same language, you know? (referencing Harold and Maude here) With regard to accusations of delusions, I'm not attempting to armchair psychoanalyze these guys. I'm using that word specifically in context of their stated motives and the reality that does not conform with this expectation. For clarity, I'm using the word deluded to denote a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact. I do not think there's any reason to expect a person with deluded beliefs to not be able to function perfectly adequately otherwise. Having a deluded belief in one area does not mean one is necessarily deluded in others. Humans can compartmentalize their thinking quite well, and cognitive biases can be profound in some areas and have no effect on others. 

[Pam in CT]

I know.  Not picking on your word choice.  Just baffled, scared and very, very saddened.

[swimmermom3]

 

But this wasn't an unused, abandoned building.  People work there.  And now they can't.  So jobs are being interfered with.  As an example:

 

Wiki says:  Refuge officials have been actively managing an overabundance of common carp (Cyprinus carpio) in the refuge since at least the 1970s. The invasive fish species was likely introduced to the refuge's waterways prior to the 1920s as a food source, and has been recognized as an ecological threat to the region since the 1950s. Carp are aggressive feeders that have reduced food availability and diminished habitat quality for the migratory bird species that utilize the refuge's marshes and lakes as part of the Pacific flyway.

 

This article points out:  The war on carp, ...which the refuge had waged unsuccessfully for years and now is expanding under the direction of a fish biologist, Linda Sue Beck...

 

Beck has guided that effort from her office at the stone headquarters building claimed by protesters last week. The protesters had cleared a space on her desk to make room for boxes of pizza and ammunition, according to two reporters from Reuters.

 

In an interview with Reuters, Ryan Bundy, brother of Ammon, referred to Beck as the carp lady. He said she could come claim her personal belongings, but should not return to work as they prepare to refashion the refuge into what some protesters have called the “Harney County Resource Center.â€

 

“She’s not here working for the people,†Ryan Bundy said. “She’s not benefiting America. She’s part of what’s destroying America.â€

 

 

I had not seen this. That pompous ignoramus knows no bounds. He is so brilliant he's decided that he knows better than all the scientists about the carp problem?  Bundy isn't working for the people either. He's just another f---head with a gun that he uses in place of a brain.  I am so over people who wave the flag, but have never bothered to even do their homework.

 

 

 

[albeto.]

I know.  Not picking on your word choice.  Just baffled, scared and very, very saddened.

 

I hear ya. Knowing people with strong delusional beliefs are nevertheless in charge and you have no choice about the matter is a frightening reality. It feels like being the only sober person in the car, and not being allowed to drive, kwim?

[swimmermom3]

Yikes! Did you see the latest? Um, no no no!

 

"The leader of a small, armed group occupying a national wildlife refuge in southeastern Oregon said Monday he and his followers are going through government documents stored inside refuge buildings."

 

Why should this surprise any of us?  These are aren't patriots, they are thugs with a huge sense of entitlement.  If you are going to break one law, why not break dozens? Why not violate the rights of hundreds of other citizens, because hey, you've got big guns and wear flags on the back of your jacket, and lie about your U.S. Armed Forces involvement, so your rights trump everyone else's?

[redsquirrel]

So, remember how yesterday I linked to a local story about how the extremists had used federal vehicles to knock down some fences that separated public land from that of the private land of a rancher?  They claimed the fence was keeping the rancher from being able to run his business properly. Well, it turns out the rancher didn't even want the fence down. He has already repaired the fence and has stated he doesn't want them coming onto his property.  He doesn't have an issue with the BLM and thinks protecting the land around the refuge is important

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/rancher_i_didnt_know_anything.html#incart_big-photo

 

 

[swimmermom3]

re: sincerely held beliefs

 

I dunno, albeto.  I don't think "patriotism" covers this one.  I love this country as fiercely as anyone, and I do understand that what "patriotism" looks like varies widely.  People have different values, and what love of country looks like, is seen by each of us through the lens of those values.  So what we each experience as "patriotism" manifests differently.  I do understand that bit.

 

It's the "standing up for local rights" part that I can't understand.  It's a very specific claim.  It has a specific meaning.  The actual local stakeholders in this particular locality, even the ones who are sympathetic to the ranchers' issues, have asked them to leave.  How can the occupiers believe they are somehow representing the interests of people who have asked them to leave?  *That's* where I'm stuck.

 

Those actual stakeholders will be stuck with a significant bill. The $60-70,000 per day cost includes paying teachers that cannot teach. I believe those costs belong to the county and not the federal government

 

I am going to assume that the government records that the group is going through will include personnel records for Federal employees and that those records will be released. Can you imagine the potential for harm if they do that? 

 

About "patriotism," this year ds is working through both AP US History and AP US Government. I've followed along and we have learned so much. It's hard not to do that without developing an even greater respect for what has been accomplished in this country, even with its faults.  We've also spent a fair amount of time looking at the various situations where there is a loud element of "It's our right." It's amazing to us how often this same Constitution-waving violates the rights of a significant majority of other Americans. It seems like as a society, we are absolutely okay with cherry-picking the Constitution to meet our needs, which in a way, translates to having no respect for the Constitution at all.

 

I don't know if this makes any sense. I am privileged to live in a beautiful state and I want these idiots who seem more like frat boys on an extended party than anything else gone, gone, gone. 

 

[Word Nerd]

So, remember how yesterday I linked to a local story about how the extremists had used federal vehicles to knock down some fences that separated public land from that of the private land of a rancher?  They claimed the fence was keeping the rancher from being able to run his business properly. Well, it turns out the rancher didn't even want the fence down. He has already repaired the fence and has stated he doesn't want them coming onto his property.  He doesn't have an issue with the BLM and thinks protecting the land around the refuge is important

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/rancher_i_didnt_know_anything.html#incart_big-photo

 

What's even more of a head-scratcher: Ammon claimed the other day that the group was "fixing" fence and making improvements to the property. He seems to be using a different definition of everything than the normal usage.

[swimmermom3]

This is from the NYT today:

 

"Tensions escalated over the weekend when another band of outsiders arrived at the refuge’s entrance, toting long guns and promising to act as liaisons between law enforcement officials and the occupiers at Malheur. When the occupiers rebuffed the group, the newcomers headed to the county courthouse, surrounded it and demanded to meet with the sheriff. He acquiesced, but nothing came of the meeting."

 

Have we talked about this and I missed it?

[justasque]

This article, which I believe was posted by a PP, is well worth a read.  It gives a much more detailed view of the events leading up to the occupation, and portrays the occupiers without relying on the "Y'allQueda" stereotype.  

 

It also mentions that there are 17 employees who normally work at the refuge.  (I believe I read in another article that they are all either on administrative leave or working from home.  I hope the former includes their wages being paid as per usual.)

 

From the article:

 

Occupying a federal facility would allow [Ryan] Payne to both highlight the Hammonds' story and to address the "economic warfare" he believed the federal government's ownership of significant lands in Harney County inflicted on its citizens.

 

"You can't do that work from a rally," Payne said he realized in November. "It takes more time."

 

"Luckily, we the people have been provided the means to do that because the federal government has provided facilities through legal plunder," he said.

 

The only task, he said, was to settle on a place to occupy.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by justasque

[swimmermom3]

Why don't feds try to oust the militants?  Here is what a local reporter found out when she asked around

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/why_dont_feds_try_to_oust_oreg.html#incart_big-photo

 

Thank you, this was really helpful.

 

[swimmermom3]

Something I am still trying to understand is what does a victory look like?

 

Let's say the land is turned over to the state or the county.  The ranchers are free to use the land any way they see fit because it is probable that the local government won't have the funds for any kind of enforcement?  However, initially, the land belongs to all  the taxpayers, not just the ranchers. What if the taxpayers in the area decide in an economic downturn that selling off the land to private owners is in the best interest of the state or county?  Sometimes the things we think we desire most, have a way of not turning out as planned. I think the Bundys and like-minded folk have a romantic vision that may not have roots in reality. I am just not sure that taking Federal lands out of the picture will keep ranchers and farmers from getting pushed out of their areas. I almost think it could make the hardships they face even worse. Malhuer has a nice water feature. How about a nice private ranch for ???  Or perhaps a gated community??? I am letting my imagination run away with me, but I think these guys could really use a little more imagination as in "Are you prepared to live with the worse case scenario?"

[swimmermom3]

Yikes! Did you see the latest? Um, no no no!

 

"The leader of a small, armed group occupying a national wildlife refuge in southeastern Oregon said Monday he and his followers are going through government documents stored inside refuge buildings."

 

From Oregon Public Broadcasting:

 

"The computers are in a room of cubicles near the main compound. LaVoy Finicum, a member of the occupying group’s security team, accidentally led OPB into the area.

 

Finicum says the group plans to turn the office into a media center that would eventually house reporters.

 

There are four desks in the office, two on each side. Three of the computers were turned on, and in screen saver mode. Papers in the room were strewn about in a disorderly manner.

 

After Finicum realized he shouldn’t have allowed OPB to access the room, he quickly picked up lists of names and Social Security numbers by the computers, and hid government employee ID cards that were previously in plain sight.

 

Shortly after, one of the militant leaders, Ryan Bundy, walked into the room.

 

When asked about the computers, Bundy emphatically denied any of the work spaces had been touched since the occupation.  

 

“No, we haven’t touched a single personal item. We haven’t touched any of the computers, we haven’t tried to log on — we haven’t done anything. We’re not here to hurt people,†Bundy said, “not even the people who work here.â€"

 

[swimmermom3]

Articles that try to look at the logistics and costs of converting federal land to state land:

 

"Expense of Montana takeover of federal lands difficult to define"

 

What Happens When States Take Over Federal Lands? This Mess.

 

"Should Congress somehow turn over such lands now, I am convinced that the former public lands would be sold off — and not necessarily to the highest bidder, nor to Wyomingites. I’d expect huge tracts being bought by Chinese billionaires, Russian oligarchs or Arab shaikhs…. The land would be used to enrich certain people and what now is our greatest legacy, the once-public lands, would be closed off to us. Bad deal for Wyoming, and legislators who propose such clap-trap ought to be ashamed of themselves for representing all of those non-Wyoming greedy land-grabbers."

 

One thing that I read that I am still trying to find better support for is that conflicts between sheep and cattle ranchers in Oregon were so violent at times that they actually asked for federal help in managing the "common" areas they were supposed to be sharing.

[swimmermom3]

 

Harney County fire chief resigns, sides with armed protesters

 

[redsquirrel]

Oregon public radio

 

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militants-government-computers-isis-website-malheur/

 

Among the militant members who have accessed government computers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, one is an Islamic State sympathizer and Adolph Hitler acolyte.

While militant leader Ammon Bundy has repeatedly denied government computers were being used by militants, OPB has again confirmed that Department of Interior computers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge are being accessed, and in this instance, being used to make a website for the occupation.

One of the militants occupying the refuge posted video of himself using the computer.

 

Occupier David Fry said he drove from Ohio – through a blinding winter storm – to help Bundy and his supporters.

 

Fry’s Google+ account shows the Ohio man regularly posts anti-Semitic, homophobic, and pro-Nazi propaganda on social media.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2016 by redsquirrel

[swimmermom3]

Redsquirrel,

 

In all of the articles you've read, do you remember coming across anything about the actual amount of land that has been taken from ranchers in that area and when those actions took place?  I am also confused about the demand to have the refuge closed for good. The initial parcel of land for the refuge was never anyone's ranch.  I can understand pushing for reparations or a return of land that had been taken, but again, how can they demand that land that never belonged to ranchers, be given to ranchers. How is that Constitutional?

[swimmermom3]

Oregon public radio

 

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militants-government-computers-isis-website-malheur/

 

Among the militant members who have accessed government computers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, one is an Islamic State sympathizer and Adolph Hitler acolyte.

 

While militant leader Ammon Bundy has repeatedly denied government computers were being used by militants, OPB has again confirmed that Department of Interior computers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge are being accessed, and in this instance, being used to make a website for the occupation.

 

One of the militants occupying the refuge posted video of himself using the computer.

 

Occupier David Fry said he drove from Ohio – through a blinding winter storm – to help Bundy and his supporters.

 

Fry’s Google+ account shows the Ohio man regularly posts anti-Semitic, homophobic, and pro-Nazi propaganda on social media.

 

Ah David Fry. The new "ironic" face of American patriotism.  :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh and all that hate speech was just a big joke. Haha.

 

 

[albeto.]

Earlier Wednesday, a spokesman for a self-proclaimed common law judge said a grand jury could form within a week and hold a trial. Michael Emory said the judge would act in a supervisory role, and the citizens in the jury would decide if officials should be arrested.

 

He wouldn't go into details as to how the detainment process would work.

 

CNN

 

That blows my mind that they are so delusional as to think they will be granted legal standing to make arrests and judge guilt or innocence, either by mutual agreement or won through force.

 

But another meeting with town folk tomorrow, so we'll see what they say about their "plans to leave."

 

A spokeswoman for the armed protesters said a Friday meeting involving the group and a local citizen's group will be held at the fairgrounds. Ammon Bundy has said his group will discuss plans to leave the area at that meeting.

 

 

[swimmermom3]

 

Earlier Wednesday, a spokesman for a self-proclaimed common law judge said a grand jury could form within a week and hold a trial. Michael Emory said the judge would act in a supervisory role, and the citizens in the jury would decide if officials should be arrested.

 

He wouldn't go into details as to how the detainment process would work.

 

CNN

 

That blows my mind that they are so delusional as to think they will be granted legal standing to make arrests and judge guilt or innocence, either by mutual agreement or won through force.

 

But another meeting with town folk tomorrow, so we'll see what they say about their "plans to leave."

 

A spokeswoman for the armed protesters said a Friday meeting involving the group and a local citizen's group will be held at the fairgrounds. Ammon Bundy has said his group will discuss plans to leave the area at that meeting.

 

 

The stupidity here nearly makes me weep.

 

To uphold the Constitution, they will take their long guns, stalk and kidnap people they disagree with, and hold a kangaroo court?  This is what an American patriot looks like? 

 

Albeto, do you think the town meeting is anything more than another publicity stunt?

 

[swimmermom3]

I have been reading a copy of the denial for renewal of the grazing permits for the Hammonds.

 

Barring any conspiracy theory about the government setting up the Hammonds, this is disturbing.

 

Is it normal for hunters to shoot into a group of deer, wound four bucks, but walk away and leave them?  There were witnesses and not the Hammond nephew.

 

Do responsible ranchers who want to burn grazing lands do so during a country-wide burning ban?  As a state,we usually take those bans fairly seriously.  If I am reading this correctly. Steve Hammond set three spot fires downhill from a fire crew actively working to control a fire, endangering their lives.  I do think Steve Hammond has a problem with fire starting that has nothing to do with ranching and that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable thinking of turning land over to people like them.

[swimmermom3]

 

Earlier Wednesday, a spokesman for a self-proclaimed common law judge said a grand jury could form within a week and hold a trial. Michael Emory said the judge would act in a supervisory role, and the citizens in the jury would decide if officials should be arrested.

 

He wouldn't go into details as to how the detainment process would work.

 

CNN

 

That blows my mind that they are so delusional as to think they will be granted legal standing to make arrests and judge guilt or innocence, either by mutual agreement or won through force.

 

But another meeting with town folk tomorrow, so we'll see what they say about their "plans to leave."

 

A spokeswoman for the armed protesters said a Friday meeting involving the group and a local citizen's group will be held at the fairgrounds. Ammon Bundy has said his group will discuss plans to leave the area at that meeting.

 

 

According to the article, this self-appointed judge from Denver is going to sit with a Grand Jury made up of 25 locals to try Harney County officials. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the local people elect Steve Gratsy as a county judge?  So now these "patriots" are interfering with the results of local elections? Interfering with the will of the people?  All in the name of the Constitution?

 

I wonder if the Bundys will regret their call for more support. This is drawing fairly radicalized people and sooner or later the Bundys are going to lose control of the group.

 

 

[albeto.]

Albeto, do you think the town meeting is anything more than another publicity stunt?

 

Personally, I don't think it's a publicity stunt in the sense of contriving support by presenting a particularly sympathetic message. I think instead *they* think it's a publicity opportunity in the sense of giving people who are sitting on the fence the opportunity to hear the call of Jesus and come forward. I know that sounds condescending and sarcastic, and while I don't hide my frustration and antipathy for religious beliefs (this is a prime example of why, btw), I don't actually mean it sarcastically. I mean it literally. I think these guys genuinely believe Jesus is literally "calling" people to step forward and join the cause, and society is providing pressure that subdues or suppresses that calling. I think they think this kind of thing will stir the spirit and give people courage to follow what is believed to be the LORD's prompting. The fact that they are preparing for a vigilante system of government suggests not only a genuine intent of sedition, but a childish, foolish understanding of American civics, and human behavior in general. These guys are like the offspring of Lord of the Flies and Ma and Pa Kettle Meet Abbot and Costello. I can't help but think of them as the intellectual equals of any character from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, only they're all armed, and not at all funny.

[swimmermom3]

Pete Santilli - Militant broadcaster on Harney County and a 15 yo girl - another big American "patriot."

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Personally, I don't think it's a publicity stunt in the sense of contriving support by presenting a particularly sympathetic message. I think instead *they* think it's a publicity opportunity in the sense of giving people who are sitting on the fence the opportunity to hear the call of Jesus and come forward. I know that sounds condescending and sarcastic, and while I don't hide my frustration and antipathy for religious beliefs (this is a prime example of why, btw), I don't actually mean it sarcastically. I mean it literally. I think these guys genuinely believe Jesus is literally "calling" people to step forward and join the cause, and society is providing pressure that subdues or suppresses that calling. I think they think this kind of thing will stir the spirit and give people courage to follow what is believed to be the LORD's prompting. The fact that they are preparing for a vigilante system of government suggests not only a genuine intent of sedition, but a childish, foolish understanding of American civics, and human behavior in general. These guys are like the offspring of Lord of the Flies and Ma and Pa Kettle Meet Abbot and Costello. I can't help but think of them as the intellectual equals of any character from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, only they're all armed, and not at all funny.

I think Charlie Day is more socially and morally self aware than they are.

Frank would be with them but it would be part of a scheme.

Mac would offer to be their security.

[albeto.]

I think Charlie Day is more socially and morally self aware than they are.

Frank would be with them but it would be part of a scheme.

Mac would offer to be their security.

 

Dee would be found face down in a pile of garbage and sticky bar towels, having spent "snack money donations" on booze. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Dee would be found face down in a pile of garbage and sticky bar towels, having spent "snack money donations" on booze.

And Dennis would have everyone signing creepy contracts.

[swimmermom3]

Still thinking about this. :tongue_smilie:

 

If I had a grievance like this, I would research the heck out of it and make a list of all the eminent domain action since the inception of the Refuge. I would list dates, names, and values for all those ranchers that lost property.  If they were no longer in the area, then you could cite "bankrupt" after forced sale or whatever.  Wouldn't that be the most effective way to get the local people on your side?  "Here are the losses you and your neighbors have experienced." It should all be a matter of public record. Where are the human interest stories?

 

Maybe that's just what a bunch of militant homeschool moms would do - research it. We sure as heck wouldn't forget the snacks.

 

ETA: I should have read Greg Walden's speech. That was much more helpful in understanding the the frustration in Harney County and similar areas than anything the Bundys have said.

Edited January 14, 2016 by swimmermom3

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Still thinking about this. :tongue_smilie:

 

If I had a grievance like this, I would research the heck out of it and make a list of all the eminent domain action since the inception of the Refuge. I would list dates, names, and values for all those ranchers that lost property. If they were no longer in the area, then you could cite "bankrupt" after forced sale or whatever. Wouldn't that be the most effective way to get the local people on your side? "Here are the losses you and your neighbors have experienced." It should all be a matter of public record. Where are the human interest stories?

 

Maybe that's just what a bunch of militant homeschool moms would do - research it. We sure as heck wouldn't forget the snacks.

Some would definitely complain about bringing snacks. :)

[Ravin]

 

Earlier Wednesday, a spokesman for a self-proclaimed common law judge said a grand jury could form within a week and hold a trial. Michael Emory said the judge would act in a supervisory role, and the citizens in the jury would decide if officials should be arrested.

 

He wouldn't go into details as to how the detainment process would work.

 

CNN

 

That blows my mind that they are so delusional as to think they will be granted legal standing to make arrests and judge guilt or innocence, either by mutual agreement or won through force.

 

But another meeting with town folk tomorrow, so we'll see what they say about their "plans to leave."

 

A spokeswoman for the armed protesters said a Friday meeting involving the group and a local citizen's group will be held at the fairgrounds. Ammon Bundy has said his group will discuss plans to leave the area at that meeting.

 

 "Common law" does not mean what Ammon Bundy thinks it means.

[albeto.]

 "Common law" does not mean what Ammon Bundy thinks it means.

 

Neither, apparently, does "Constitution."

[TXBeth]

Some would definitely complain about bringing snacks. :)

 

Only if the protest was scheduled to last less than a few hours. :)

[swimmermom3]

Thousands Of Artifacts Stored At Oregon Refuge Held By Armed Militia

 

"Thousands of archaeological artifacts — and maps detailing where more can be found — are kept inside the national wildlife refuge buildings currently being held by an armed group of protestors angry over federal land policy.

 

Ryan Bundy, one of the leaders of the group occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in southeastern Oregon, says they have no real interest in the antiquities. Still, their access to the artifacts and maps has some worried that looters could take advantage of the situation.

 

"There's a huge market for artifacts, especially artifacts that have provenance, where you can identify where they came from," said Carla Burnside, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's refuge archeologist.

 

More than 300 recorded prehistoric sites are scattered across the refuge, including burial grounds, ancient villages and petroglyphs. Some of the artifacts — including spears, stone tools, woven baskets and beads — date back 9,800 years."

 

The article noted that Ryan Payne and Bundy supporters had ridden ATVs on closed trails that crossed Native American archaeological sites in the 2014 occupation in Nevada.

 

Bundy's ideas on how to handle the artifacts:

 

Bundy said people interested in archaeology are welcome to explore the refuge, but that cattle ranchers and loggers should have priority when it comes to land use.

 

"Before white man came, so to speak, there was nothing to keep cattle from tromping on those things," Bundy said.

Though some countries had domesticated cattle 10,000 years ago, the animals came to the United States with European settlers.

"We also recognize that the Native Americans had the claim to the land, but they lost that claim," Bundy said. "There are things to learn from cultures of the past, but the current culture is the most important."

 

Copyright 2016 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[Xuzi]

Thousands Of Artifacts Stored At Oregon Refuge Held By Armed Militia

 

 

"Thousands of archaeological artifacts — and maps detailing where more can be found — are kept inside the national wildlife refuge buildings currently being held by an armed group of protestors angry over federal land policy.

 

Ryan Bundy, one of the leaders of the group occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in southeastern Oregon, says they have no real interest in the antiquities. Still, their access to the artifacts and maps has some worried that looters could take advantage of the situation.

 

"There's a huge market for artifacts, especially artifacts that have provenance, where you can identify where they came from," said Carla Burnside, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's refuge archeologist.

 

More than 300 recorded prehistoric sites are scattered across the refuge, including burial grounds, ancient villages and petroglyphs. Some of the artifacts — including spears, stone tools, woven baskets and beads — date back 9,800 years."

 

The article noted that Ryan Payne and Bundy supporters had ridden ATVs on closed trails that crossed Native American archaeological sites in the 2014 occupation in Nevada.

 

Bundy's ideas on how to handle the artifacts:

 

Bundy said people interested in archaeology are welcome to explore the refuge, but that cattle ranchers and loggers should have priority when it comes to land use.

 

"Before white man came, so to speak, there was nothing to keep cattle from tromping on those things," Bundy said.

Though some countries had domesticated cattle 10,000 years ago, the animals came to the United States with European settlers.

"We also recognize that the Native Americans had the claim to the land, but they lost that claim," Bundy said. "There are things to learn from cultures of the past, but the current culture is the most important."

 

Copyright 2016 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

What. An. @$$.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

lol

One of these clowns got arrested for driving a stolen (I am guessing they would say "liberated") federal vehicle to Safeway.  They must really need snacks.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oregon-police-arrest-man-over-federal-vehicles-stolen-refuge-n497636

 

[Spryte]

I just said a slew of bad words after reading about the archaeological artifacts.

 

These idiots need to go back to their village.

[redsquirrel]

Here is a little bit more about the arrest of the guy driving a gov't car to get the snacks:

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/protester_arrested_in_burns_dr.html

 

Sounds like someone you want in your community.

 

"In 1995, Medenbach was convicted on federal charges for illegally camping on the Gifford Pinchot National Forest in Washington state. He was ordered held in custody because of evidence that Medenbach poses a risk to the safety of other persons or the community because [he] acknowledges intimidation practices, references 'Ruby Ridge' and 'Waco, Texas,' and clearly would not follow conditions of release restraining his presence at the scene of the alleged unlawful activity," according to a federal appellate court ruling upholding his conviction.

 

The appellate ruling said there was "evidence that Medenbach had attempted to protect his forest campsite with fifty to a hundred pounds of the explosive ammonium sulfate, a pellet gun, and what appeared to be a hand grenade with trip wires. The government also proffered evidence that Medenbach had warned Forest Service officers of potential armed resistance to the federal government's continued control of the forest lands in question."

 

So, there were two vehicles, why they needed two to get snacks at the safeway is beyond me, but I am guessing it is a guy thing that they don't like to share a car?  This guy was arrested, but they other guy was already inside the store. The sheriff arrested the one they saw driving the car, and then impounded both gov't vehicles. I have no idea how the other guy got back to the occupied camp. He must have felt the fool calling and asking for a ride, lol.  "Uh, guys, they arrested Kenny, and took the cars. So, can someone come and pick me up?  I've got the wheat thins and hummus"