AoPS -- How to you lead your child into the learning curve for this program?

[wapiti]

FWIW regarding the online classes, different kids will get different things out of those too.  For my dd, the class kept her on track, but eventually she had a hard time keeping up with the book work, which should precede the class weekly challenge problems; she'd jump right to the class weekly challenge problems to get the proof done on time and end up in a pickle.

 

My 2e-ish ds12, on the other hand, really enjoyed chatting with a few of his classmates before and after class and often made arrangements to "meet" on this or that computer game, Minecraft world, etc.  He got quite a lot out of the class sessions themselves.  Unfortunately he was not as motivated with the weekly challenge problems and fell behind on those later in the course, even while always attending class.  He has taken 3 classes so far, mostly just for the fun of the online interaction.  It's expensive just for that purose, but I feel he got something out of it anyway, if only the knowledge that there are math peers out there.  (He is switching to a new school next month where we hope he will find his peeps in that regard :).)  The text-chat format of the class was perfect for him - the text scrolls up from the bottom just as in Minecraft, so Minecraft was good for something.

 

Eta, on the challenge problems, I typically only assigned a couple at the end of the chapter, but later, at the end of the book, went back and assigned a couple more challenge problems for review purposes.  It was amazing how much easier they seemed once all the concepts had time to marinate, so to speak.

 

If the pace of the online class might not be ideal but yet he'd really like to try, I'd suggest starting the book well in advance of the course start, by a few weeks or even a month or more.

Edited December 13, 2015 by wapiti

[madteaparty]

I have to add, since I've been super negative here (this has more to do with me than the program, naturally) that the videos are truly great. Actually that's where the learning is happening for us. But we keep on with the classes. Go figure.

Edited December 14, 2015 by madteaparty

[Arcadia]

Videos:

It stop at the intro to algebra book and some counting and probablity. There are no videos for intro to geometry and intermediate algebra onwards. So if learning is primarily through videos, the videos are not a long term solution. If it is a nice to have supplement than that is ok.

 

Alcumus level:

The child can adjust the level of difficulty for the current level but cannot go back a level. I don't know if you can email AoPS to reset the level.

 

Alcumus level in homework:

My boys took the intro to geometry class with start dates a day apart and their level for Alcumus homework was different. Older boy had a higher level of Alcumus to complete for his geometry homework. I think it depends on the child's Alcumus level when the child starts the class but that's my guess.

 

AoPS online class:

What my oldest find nice was that a bunch of his online classmates got stuck on the same homework problems as him. So it helps his perfectionism because he knows he is not alone in pondering.

He also rather type than speak so any class that requires him to answer verbally is a no go. While not perfect, the online class is the best match for now. He is doing the precalc class currently.

 

Challenge problems:

I'm not a math major, I'm an engineer by training. The high school track for kids keen on engineering in my alma mater was heavy on math (calculus) and physics (calculus, Halliday & Resnick). What was useful was facing difficulties in subjects while still in the relatively safe cocoon of middle and high school. It is better than dropping out of first year engineering due to failing engineering calculus.

It need not be through the AoPS challenge problems, but it is good for kids to be challenged a little while they are still home and we can prod them along.

 

Hubby's colleague is dyslexic, has a phd and is working as an R&D tech engineer. (Just a note of encouragement)

[lewelma]

My older ds has used AoPS for 6 years now and is a brilliant problem solver.  My younger son is also an accellerated math student but will not be using AoPS.  He likes direct instruction and more practical problem solving rather than theoretical. I say this to point out that there is more than one way to skin a cat. A child can become very good at mathematics without using AoPS.  As good?  No, but still good. I completely agree with CalmingTea that AoPS is not for every kid.

 

Three years ago I ran a thread 'using aops with average math students'. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/349586-using-aops-with-average-math-students/ And in it I questioned why anyone would try. The responses were quite interesting, from many directions, and worth reading. I have come to believe over the past 3 years that there are some inspirational parents who have helped average math students use this program, but I think that they are uncommon. I also know that some success stories come from some *outstanding* kids. I think that it is very hard to come out and say to the world, I tried it with my kid and we just couldn't do it.  Posters self select when it comes to posting about AoPS so we are much more likely to hear the success stories than the failures.  Like CalmingTea I feel uncomfortable going against the stream here, but I do think that AoPS is written for gifted math students, and there is no shame in a good math student using a different program. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[deerforest]

I think the challenge I have is that I have an accelerated math (not gifted) student who is gifted in other areas and who has no tolerance or success with rote algorithmic mathematical learning. She thrives in conceptual teaching but not so much via discovery method.

 

Honestly, her idea of the worst punishment ever is a competitive math league or camp. She has absolutely no tolerance for puzzling through math that she doesn't get right away. But, she gets enough right away that it leaves me struggling to know what to use with her.

 

The result is that I continue to use some of just about everything, and we are currently using AoPS as a supplement after she has mastered it in another curriculum. I know this sounds bizarre, but it works well for now. I do not want to continue this beyond pre-algebra. Right now I'm content taking however much time as we want during 6th and 7th, but I do want her in algebra I by 8th.

 

I just have t been thrilled with any single curriculum offering yet.

Edited December 14, 2015 by deerforest

[texasmama]

I am very interested in the online class opinions/feedback.  My son who went on after AoPS pre-A to use the Intro to Algebra program did well until Chapter 8 and then became very stuck.  He is very resistant to changing programs so my current plan is to put him in the online class (one of the classes starting in March or April, after basketball season).  He will do Alcumus to stay fresh until then.  He did well (not 100% but grasped the material) until Chapter 8.  Does this sound like a good plan?

 

Regarding the program not being for all kids, I agree.  I did find that even my average ability kid benefitted from the pre-Algebra program with me working closely beside him, though.  He wanted to continue with AoPS Algebra, and I had a feeling that was a mistake.  I was correct, and he floundered and ended up in Jann in TX's online class for Algebra, which was a great fit for him.  He is now doing well in her Geometry class.  But the pre-Algebra program is solid, thorough, and I am a big fan for most kids, though not necessarily as written.  I used it differently (see my first post), and we took weeks at a time to make forays into two other curricula (Dolciani and Key to Algebra) in order to make it successful for my boys.  I have no regrets about using the pre-A program.  I do have regrets about using the Algebra.  Please keep in mind that I could not be more grounded in the humanities and less able to teach upper math if I tried.  Evidently, pre-Algebra is my ceiling as a math teacher.  I always like to interject our experience because it is a bit different than the mathy moms working with mathy kids stories where AoPS is concerned.  :)

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

What does he hate about Saxon?

 

 

[Arcadia]

I am very interested in the online class opinions/feedback. 

 ...

 

 I always like to interject our experience because it is a bit different than the mathy moms working with mathy kids stories where AoPS is concerned.   :)

 

Which AoPS online class do you want feedback on?

DS10 did the Intro to Algebra B and the Intro to Geometry online class concurrently. DS11 did the Intermediate Algebra and the intro to Geometry class concurrently.  Now DS11 is in the Precalculus class.

 

My engineering hubby thinks AoPS is too hard, even the prelalgebra book. Since DS11 does not like to talk and DS10 is not brave enough yet to ask questions (but loves to talk), we haven't been able to find a suitable tutor.  My kids are more into the sciences anyway which needs the math.  So our math acceleration is due to science acceleration.

 

ETA:

Hubby thinks AoPS too hard, Saxon too boring and SM NEM (old edition) bearable. It is harder to get help for SM on the boards and finding classes if you are stuck though.  

Edited December 14, 2015 by Arcadia

[texasmama]

Which AoPS online class do you want feedback on?

DS10 did the Intro to Algebra B and the Intro to Geometry online class concurrently. DS11 did the Intermediate Algebra and the intro to Geometry class concurrently.  Now DS11 is in the Precalculus class.

 

My engineering hubby thinks AoPS is too hard, even the prelalgebra book. Since DS11 does not like to talk and DS10 is not brave enough yet to ask questions (but loves to talk), we haven't been able to find a suitable tutor.  My kids are more into the sciences anyway which needs the math.  So our math acceleration is due to science acceleration.

I had planned to enroll him in Intro to Algebra since he has made it halfway through that book successfully.  The first part should be review so he can get used to the class while not being exposed to new concepts.  He is successfully doing his first online class right now (Landry Academy Spanish), but since each online class is different, I want to set him up for success.

 

That is interesting about your hubby.  We did need to go outside the curriculum for resources to explain some of the concepts.  Because of my lack of mathiness, I usually assume issues with a curriculum are due to that, but since neither of my boys was getting some of these concepts as presented, I knew it was not that.  

[Arcadia]

That is interesting about your hubby.  We did need to go outside the curriculum for resources to explain some of the concepts.  Because of my lack of mathiness, I usually assume issues with a curriculum are due to that, but since neither of my boys was getting some of these concepts as presented, I knew it was not that.  

 

My hubby is a sequential thinker and thinks logic puzzles are brain torture. He also finds filing income tax confusing.  I am an all over the shop thinker and logic puzzles keep me from falling asleep while waiting.  

 

The thing with the AoPS books is that sometimes the lightbulb moment comes hours or days later for the person. It is a "slow cooker" curriculum not a "stir fry" curriculum. There are mini plateaus in the learning curve.  I don't know if working memory might play a part unintentionally because my kids can hold a difficult problem for days and just suddenly answer it writing out the problem on a blank piece of paper.

 

A child who has been exposed to competition math before AoPS is also going to find the transition easier. My oldest commented that the authors took some past year competition problems instead of writing all the questions from scratch when he started the prealgebra book. He actually counted because he was amused.

 

When my oldest first got stuck on an AoPS problem, it happened to be a past year competition problem.  I told him that they did questions to differentiate the first from the second and the second from the third. This kid understands percentiles and his perfectionism is more at the 99th percentile level than the 99.9th percentile level so that helps.

[Pen]

What does he hate about Saxon?

 

 

 

He now says, something like (underline not working for me, so a * means word emphasis) : 

 

            I *don't* hate it. 

            It is a perfectly good learning program; it just doesn't work for *me*. 

 

Asking him if he could give any more insight into why it doesn't work for him, he said something like:

 

           There are too many, long groups of just...*problems*.

 

(I went to Saxon because it had seemed like AoPS when first tried last year did not have *enough* problems (Alcumus might have fixed that, but I did not realize that yet)

 

Previously, my recollection is that he has been more negative about Saxon than that, and asked by his grandmother what he didn't like about it his answer was "everything."

 

As an observation from my pov: 

When he works on Khan Academy or on Alcumus, he want to have quiet, no interference, and has a "don't bother me", type approach, and is unable to focus if the surroundings are distracting him. With both he appears from the outside to be engaged in what he is doing.

 

With Saxon, he has had on music or even an audio book in the background and has said he cannot focus on the Saxon *unless* there is something like that in the background. I am not sure he really focusses on the Saxon at all... it's like he daydreams his way through it. With a result that he gets 100% or near that on everything, but then it turns out that apparently he has not actually learned / retained anything. 

 

[madteaparty]

Fwiw, my husband, supposedly mathy (but works in finance, not engineering) also finds AOPS hard and frustrating. He's actually banned from trying to help with math here ;)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I suspected that would be the reason.  I don't have my kid do all the problems.  It's just too much.  I pick half and sometimes even less.  But it's nice because if he needs more practice there are plenty of problems there. 

 

 

 

He now says, something like (underline not working for me, so a * means word emphasis) : 

 

            I *don't* hate it. 

            It is a perfectly good learning program; it just doesn't work for *me*. 

 

Asking him if he could give any more insight into why it doesn't work for him, he said something like:

 

           There are too many, long groups of just...*problems*.

 

(I went to Saxon because it had seemed like AoPS when first tried last year did not have *enough* problems (Alcumus might have fixed that, but I did not realize that yet)

 

Previously, my recollection is that he has been more negative about Saxon than that, and asked by his grandmother what he didn't like about it his answer was "everything."

 

As an observation from my pov: 

When he works on Khan Academy or on Alcumus, he want to have quiet, no interference, and has a "don't bother me", type approach, and is unable to focus if the surroundings are distracting him. With both he appears from the outside to be engaged in what he is doing.

 

With Saxon, he has had on music or even an audio book in the background and has said he cannot focus on the Saxon *unless* there is something like that in the background. I am not sure he really focusses on the Saxon at all... it's like he daydreams his way through it. With a result that he gets 100% or near that on everything, but then it turns out that apparently he has not actually learned / retained anything. 

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

 

With Saxon, he has had on music or even an audio book in the background and has said he cannot focus on the Saxon *unless* there is something like that in the background. I am not sure he really focusses on the Saxon at all... it's like he daydreams his way through it. With a result that he gets 100% or near that on everything, but then it turns out that apparently he has not actually learned / retained anything.

 

 

That is what my DS11 does for his history, pure regurgitation for public school test and exams purposes :lol: He only remembers whatever interest him after the tests.

[Pen]

My son did as he said and started Alcumus afresh yesterday.

 

Should I help at all with Alcumus if asked?

 

Or does doing so take away from the program's ability to give appropriate next questions based on whether the person answered the previous one correctly and whether it took a hint or second try?

[Arcadia]

 

Should I help at all with Alcumus if asked?

 

I just look through his working and see if he made any silly careless mistakes if one of my boys asked. I didn't give hints though.  If they are really stuck, I ask them to reread the topic in their textbook. 

[lisabees]

My son did as he said and started Alcumus afresh yesterday.

 

Should I help at all with Alcumus if asked?

 

Or does doing so take away from the program's ability to give appropriate next questions based on whether the person answered the previous one correctly and whether it took a hint or second try?

 

I don't help with Alcumus, but I check her "report" daily and we go over incorrect answers on a whiteboard.

 

I do this with enthusiasm, every single time, because I find it to be so much fun to puzzle it out with her.  And, with the answer there if I need it, it is not daunting. :)

[LinaJ]

And I guess there is always the threat of Saxon if he does not do his part :)

 

 

My daughter hates Saxon, and it would be the biggest punishment to her to try it again :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[LinaJ]

My kids just started AOPS pre-algebra, we are on the second chapter. Mostly it's review for us before algebra as they know majority of the things.

 

We are still working out what is the best format for each child. My son reads through chapter, watches videos, does all exercises in the book, does alcumus to get blue. Next day does challenge questions and the following chapter. He loves getting blue line in his alcumus report!

Meanwhile, my daughter watches videos first, then we work through the chapter together with lots of eye rolling, "i got a headache", and other creative ways to cut math short. Then after a break or later that day she does alcumus next to me with me gently guiding her as needed. I am proud to say today I saw a glimpse of excitement in her eyes when she managed to use formulas and get three correct answers in a row. And now she says she wants to beat her brother in "getting blue line first". Seems like AOPS is working! :D

[Pen]

I don't help with Alcumus, but I check her "report" daily and we go over incorrect answers on a whiteboard.

 

I do this with enthusiasm, every single time, because I find it to be so much fun to puzzle it out with her.  And, with the answer there if I need it, it is not daunting. :)

 

 

. He loves getting blue line in his alcumus report!

 

 

 

Clearly I missed something. What report? I didn't know about any report.

 

And how do you find problems that were incorrect to see them and rework them?

 

This may conflict with my son's wanting to do it without me, but I'd still like to know!

[Arcadia]

Clearly I missed something. What report? I didn't know about any report.

 

And how do you find problems that were incorrect to see them and rework them?

 

This may conflict with my son's wanting to do it without me, but I'd still like to know!

The report is in his profile. You can see his report if your AoPS account is on friend status with his AoPS account. Or if he log in and let you see.

 

The problems done on Alcumus are in their log but the log does get cleared. I don't think you can rework the problems you get wrong on Alcumus but you can definately redo yourself on pen and paper.

 

I check my kids progress from time to time while they are log in just to see if there is any topic they are stuck at.

[deerforest]

Dumb question--I haven't set up an Alcumus account for DD yet, but I think she's ready to try it. (Computer learning/practice isn't a strong interest for her, but I've been doing it on my own for a while and was going to show her my account to get her interested.)

 

Do I just set up an account for her like I did myself and then just add her as a friend to mine?

[Arcadia]

 

Do I just set up an account for her like I did myself and then just add her as a friend to mine?

 

You need to sign a waiver form for your daughter since she is under 13.  Then you just email the signed form back to AoPS to get her account activated.  My DS10 and DS11 have their own accounts which they need for taking the AoPS online classes.

 

ETA:

It took me less than a day to get my boys accounts activated.  I just took a photo of the signed waiver form and emailed back.  I used one of my email account for each child since I have a Gmail, Hotmail and yahoo email account.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Arcadia

[Pen]

Dumb question--I haven't set up an Alcumus account for DD yet, but I think she's ready to try it. (Computer learning/practice isn't a strong interest for her, but I've been doing it on my own for a while and was going to show her my account to get her interested.)

 

Do I just set up an account for her like I did myself and then just add her as a friend to mine?

 

Also my  son needed his own email set up to do it. When it was first done I had to send in a written form with permission, but this time since he is now 13 he could do it all himself.

[LinaJ]

Clearly I missed something. What report? I didn't know about any report.

 

And how do you find problems that were incorrect to see them and rework them?

 

This may conflict with my son's wanting to do it without me, but I'd still like to know!

 

You get blue line when you are above 80%. Anything between 40-80% is orange, and bellow 40% is red -  you start our with red before you even answer any questions from that chapter.

I applied for a teacher account - it allows you to add "students" and monitor their work. I can see what questions they answered correctly, which ones they missed etc. Since I have two kids, it's easier for me to pop in and see their both work in one place rather than log in/out for each. I had to sign a parental form for my son (my daughter is 13) and was approved with half an hour. Teacher's account got approved the same day.

Trying to attach little picture of all "blue lines", hopefully it works.

[Pen]

Okay. Here is a real problem from Alcumus that my ds asked for help with. I know how to do the problem (or at least, certainly think that I do...very embarrassing if I am wrong). Though perhaps my way would not be the most elegant way.--Is there a more elegant way of solving the problem below than distributing the 2^17 so as to divide each term in the parentheses, thus simplifying it down to a much more manageable addition of 3(2^3) + 2^4   ?).

 

The issue is how to help him to know how.

 

He is trying to get a badge that requires a streak of 13 problems correct in a row (to beat his last streak by one) and he is at number 11 of 13. He does not want to miss it and lose the streak, hence I got asked. This was last night. The first thing was that he decided he needed a break, and then that turned into closing it out for the night and deciding to return to it today. He says the same problem he ended at will come back again.  I am having trouble finding a symbol to indicate raising a base to an exponent--don't know if it is right, but I will use ^ before what should be the exponent. And / for divided by. They used a line with dot above and below type divided by symbol.  I am thinking the symbol itself is part of what is throwing him. A division symbol that looks like a fraction bar seems to cry out "simplify me" more than one that looks like the type back from grade 3.

 

 

Find:

 

(2^20 + 2^20 + 2^20 + 2^21) / 2^17

 

 

1) So, first step was to take a break and sleep on it. I should add that this was ds's own idea, my own, wrongly, I think, would have been to try to push through. I am seeing that mistake now.

 

Next:

 

2) I am thinking to just ask him what he notices about the problem and if there is anything he has tried yet.

 

3) I am thinking to ask him if he can remember the distributive property.

 

4) If no, maybe to remind him what it is.  If yes, maybe to ask him if he can see any way that he can use it on this problem.

 

5) If no, I am thinking to ask him what the trouble with the problem is (thinking along the lines of that the huge numbers that 2^20 would be --probably more than our calculator could handle -- makes us want some simpler way to solve this than adding up everything in the parentheses and then dividing that by another huge number) ... and is there anything he can think of doing that could help simplify it

 

6) If no, can he remember anything from simpler problems he has done that involve dividing numbers like    a^20/a^17   that might be applied to this and could help?

 

 

 

7) Would next best thing be to demonstrate how I myself might go about it?

 

8) Part of what I did was I'd forgotten the "rules," so I used a much simpler situation to recall them for myself.    Something like (2^4 + 2^4 + 2^5)/2^3  -- I am thinking I could lead him through a few like that that I used to remember how to deal with a problem like this and see if that helps him with the real problem?  As well as maybe it helping him to see how someone who had this level of math decades ago can figure it out again, rather than a needing to memorize rules approach?  (Ds and  I are both better at figuring things out than at memorizing rules.)

 

 

 

 

 

9) If he still hasn't got it figured out, maybe another break to think about it?  Or maybe trying to find some parts of the book that have relevant things?

 

10) Or finally, maybe,  I could start maybe showing how the distributive property would work here with division the same as with multiplication and then start him with a 1st    2^20/2^17 = 2^3    part and see if he could then carry on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please make comments on my above ideas.

 

And if none of that gets anywhere, I am stumped as to what I might do in a socratic way trying to draw it out of him, versus showing him how all the way.

 

 

[Arcadia]

For something like that problem, I asked my youngest to reread the summary page of prealgebra chapter 2 (exponents). He figured it out after that.

 

All the Alcumus problems my kids did so far tied with topics in the textbooks. So reviewing the section or chapter usually helps.

 

I would have done it your way and then do either

8 + 8 + 8 + 16

or

8(1+1+1+2)

 

ETA:

I really like the steps in Polya's How to Solve It not just for maths.

4 page summary

https://math.berkeley.edu/~gmelvin/polya.pdf

Edited December 17, 2015 by Arcadia

[Pen]

For something like that problem, I asked my youngest to reread the summary page of prealgebra chapter 2 (exponents). He figured it out after that.

 

All the Alcumus problems my kids did so far tied with topics in the textbooks. So reviewing the section or chapter usually helps.

 

I would have done it your way and then do either

8 + 8 + 8 + 16

or

8(1+1+1+2)

 

ETA:

I really like the steps in Polya's How to Solve It not just for maths.

4 page summary

https://math.berkeley.edu/~gmelvin/polya.pdf

 

 

THANK YOU!

[daijobu]

Find:

 

(2^20 + 2^20 + 2^20 + 2^21) / 2^17

 

 

8) Part of what I did was I'd forgotten the "rules," so I used a much simpler situation to recall them for myself.    Something like (2^4 + 2^4 + 2^5)/2^3  -- I am thinking I could lead him through a few like that that I used to remember how to deal with a problem like this and see if that helps him with the real problem?  As well as maybe it helping him to see how someone who had this level of math decades ago can figure it out again, rather than a needing to memorize rules approach?  (Ds and  I are both better at figuring things out than at memorizing rules.)

 

 

Please make comments on my above ideas.

 

And if none of that gets anywhere, I am stumped as to what I might do in a socratic way trying to draw it out of him, versus showing him how all the way.

 

I'm very impressed that you strive to teach your student to learn, rather than just solving it for him.  Bravo!  

 

My math teacher always said, "Mere memorization is a mathematical malpractice."  You have good instincts to focus on figuring things out (aka deriving them) rather than pure memorization.  Excellent!  

 

You are using correct typewriter notation for exponents: ^    I have a mind to ask the moderator/admin to add math notation to these boards.  (You can also use superscript font, but who has time for that?)

 

I agree with Arcadia to re-read the chapter, or at least review the main points in the boxes or end of chapter summary.  

 

There are 2 steps to understand with respect to exponents: factoring and division.  Begin with simpler examples:

 

Factoring:

Show him something like this:  3^2 + 3^3 + 3^4 and ask him what is the common factor that can be factored from those 3 terms.  Hopefully he will see that the expression can be rewritten as 3^2 ( 1 + 3^1 + 3^2).  Repeat as needed with different bases and exponents, bases as variables (x^3 + x^18 + x^27) = x^3*(1+x^15 + x^24) and exponents as variables 3^x + 3^2x + 3^(x+7) = 3^x*(1 + 3^x + 3^7)

 

Division:

Ask him to simplify something like this:  ( 3^5) / (3^2) to make sure he understands how to divide exponents.

 

This is how I teach Socratically, by beginning with first principles and hoping to stimulate the insight needed to solve the more difficult problem.  HTH.

[LinaJ]

Find:

 

(2^20 + 2^20 + 2^20 + 2^21) / 2^17

 

 

First I would remind him two things. (a+b+c) / d = a/d + b/d + c/d  and a^m / a^n = a^m-n Once those two are implemented in the order I suggested, the answer is easy. :)