"Why 20 somethings are unhappy"

[TranquilMind]

I personally do not pursue happiness as a goal in and of itself, but thanks for the well-wishes.

 

As to the bolded. Of course. Not YOUR personal kids. Other peoples kids. Other people were terrible at raising kids. So now there is a whole, entire generation of entitled, spoiled brats. Ci  o no? That is the genesis of the article in the OP.

 

I assume all these entitled 20-somethings didn't spontaneously arrive on the scene like a mutated virus.

 

Let's imagine I started a thread predicated on enumerating the various ways in which my parent's generation is, on the whole, terrible at life. And invited people to jump in with their anecdotes about crappy life choices of forty and fifty-somethings they know. I wonder how it would go?

Go for it.  I think many of us have lived long enough to look at the foibles and positives of our own generation more clearly.   I'm pretty conversant with not only my own, but with my parents' generation and they had very definite strengths and weaknesses that differ from ours.

 

You really took that article personally.  I don't think the author said anywhere that there was "a whole entire generation of entitled, spoiled brats."   

 

But you must admit that there are a lot of 20-30 year olds who are hyper-reactive to everything ("safe spaces"),  and do think their personal happiness must trump all in the workplace,and that just isn't reality. 

[TranquilMind]

Really? I hope there aren't any discrimination laws on the books in your locale, because that statement right there in bold, aside from being egregiously arrogant,  would have you up on labour charges and human rights violations so fast you your head would spin.

Didn't you read the rest of it?  She said she wasn't actually going to do this, but will not hire people who SAY certain things.  And that is perfectly acceptable, legally. 

[Liz CA]

I think this part is generally (there are exceptions) pretty spot-on:

 

Gen Y has “unrealistic expectations and a strong resistance toward accepting negative feedback,†and “an inflated view of oneself.â€

 

He says that “a great source of frustration for people with a strong sense of entitlement is unmet expectations. They often feel entitled to a level of respect and rewards that aren’t in line with their actual ability and effort levels, and so they might not get the level of respect and rewards they are expecting.â€

 

 

 

I definitely have seen the "Princess" and "You are special" attitude. Perhaps - as a generation - we have missed to connect the dots for our kids. You work hard, you do your best and you really are no better than your neighbor...?

The bolded section above expresses my thoughts very well.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Liz CA

[Guest]

Naw. Most 20-30 year olds I know are just regular people, TM. Doing their square best with what they've got.

[Greta]

My children are all in their twenties. I know their friends. This gives me some idea of what 20-somethings in my (relatively affluent) area are like. I can,t make any sweeping statements about the people themselves, but I do know that some things have changed about our area and about our society.

 

The 20's I know seem to be a more connected. It is hard for them not to answer a text. It is hard for them not to support each other or be a constant part of each other,s lives. This could be percieved as a flaw, especially when it comes to "entitlement" attitudes about technology. Their technology is what connects them. They feel blinded when they cannot easily access information or their friends. This is something that having grown up with, is very hard to give up. Somehow it feels more fundamental to them than a car or a house. It seems to feel more like the ability to speak or see. And yet to my mother's generation, this technology looks like a pure luxury and they have trouble undrestanding how the 20's function with the constant scrutany and interruptions.

 

The ones I know are more cooperative-minded. They think in terms of uber, craig,s list, crowd sourcing, etc. They need to look towards each other to survive. Employers are no longer the sorce of raises, insurance, paid vacations, and retirement they were for their grandparents. A good job is one that lasts five years. Their parents, faced with the choice of letting them go uninsured, keep them on the family plan as long as possible. The parents know that if they their children haven,t a hope of buying a house in this area, so they get creative with housing, creating basement or garage apartments for their kids and telling them they can have the house in a few years when the parents want to downsize with retirement. In all likelyhood, the parents are doing childcare anyway, since good childcare costs the earth here. The parents feel badly about not being able to pay for college, anyway, and this is a way to help. There seems to be a high proportion of medical problems that make it hard for the 20's to manage on their own - epilepsy, bipolar, etc. The government support is no more. Some parents are finding the 20's useful, caught as they are between caring for the grandparents and the younger siblings. Combining households just makes sense. All these things look like entitlement issues to the grandparents.

 

Nan

Nan, this was a lovely and insightful post. It's very easy for me (coming from my old lady, 40-something perspective) to be astounded at the amount of time and money that younger people spend on their phones. Honestly, I have *never* owned a smartphone, not to this day. I still somehow manage to stay in touch with my friends (I chisel messages into rocks ;) ) So it's easy for me to think of it as a luxury, and to shake my head at "kids these days". That was a very helpful insight into why it means so much to them.

 

My limited understanding of history has led me to conclude that practically every generation, in its later years, curses the younger generation. Whatever the particulars of the complaints are, I think what it really boils down to is: they aren't doing things the same way we did them, and the way we did them was obviously the best! We need to step back and realize that differences don't automatically mean flaws. Each generation has its weaknesses, yes, but also its strengths, has things that it does *better* than the ones that came before it.

[Greta]

That's called "romanticizing the past." When people keep talking about how a past generation was better or had it better or knew better, that's irrelevant to the current situation and I think their argument loses realism and credibility. It is much the same ridiculousness as people who say they want to go back to live with Laura Ingalls in the little house on the prairie.

This just made me think of something funny. My grandma (she'll turn 100 years old later this month) launches into an absolute fit/lecture/rant whenever anyone (always someone who wasn't actually alive at the time) talks about "the good old days". She explains, adamantly and in great detail, that they were the BAD old days, and she knows because she survived them. :) I love my grandma! :D

 

ETA: I feel like I should explain that my grandma is *not* a complainer. Just the opposite - she has stayed positive and found happiness in some pretty astonishing circumstances. She does not complain about the past. She simply won't put up with anyone else portraying it in a way that it was not.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Greta

[JumpyTheFrog]

This just made me think of something funny. My grandma (she'll turn 100 years old later this month) launches into an absolute fit/lecture/rant whenever anyone (always someone who wasn't actually alive at the time) talks about "the good old days". She explains, adamantly and in great detail, that they were the BAD old days, and she knows because she survived them. :) I love my grandma! :D

 

 

My grandpa died at 96 and didn't miss much of the "good old days." He wired up their barn at age ten, but I don't know if they ever wired up the house. He dropped out of school after either 6th or 8th grade because people thought he was stupid. When he joined the army at 19 they discovered he just needed glasses. He wasn't dumb, he couldn't see the board clearly! The army pulled about half his teeth because they were in such poor shape.

[Greta]

My grandpa died at 96 and didn't miss much of the "good old days." He wired up their barn at age ten, but I don't know if they ever wired up the house. He dropped out of school after either 6th or 8th grade because people thought he was stupid. When he joined the army at 19 they discovered he just needed glasses. He wasn't dumb, he couldn't see the board clearly! The army pulled about half his teeth because they were in such poor shape.

Your poor grandpa. My grandma lost most of her teeth when she was still pretty young, too. And that whole "Little House on the Prairie" thing that Audrey was talking about? Yeah, grandma actually did that, twice (not her choice either time). Homesteading was not romantic. It was lonely, miserable, the hardest work imagineable for the littlest reward, and literally deadly. My grandma was only 12 when her mom died in an actual little house on the prairie. The stories she has told me about those years of her life. . . . good heavens.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Yeah, my great-grandpa worked himself to death. My grandpa was the youngest of four kids and the only son. He and his dad raised dozens of hunting dogs, kept the dairy cows, baled the hale, cut the ice, raised the hogs, trained the hunting dogs, and tended the orchard. When I asked, he didn't really know what his mom and sisters did all day. Obviously they cooked, did laundry, and probably sewed. I'm not sure if they even worked in the kitchen garden. They worked separately instead of together as a family.

 

Meanwhile he worked with his dad all day, although apparently they never talked much. Although my grandpa and his wife spent lots of time telling "dinosaur stories" about their life growing up, he didn't seem to know much about his own parents. I can't imagine working in the fields for years and hardly talking to someone!

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's called "romanticizing the past."  When people keep talking about how a past generation was better or had it better or knew better, that's irrelevant to the current situation and I think their argument loses realism and credibility.  It is much the same ridiculousness as people who say they want to go back to live with Laura Ingalls in the little house on the prairie. 

 

I say we go back to the days of the Aztecs.  You know, that romantic time of human sacrifice. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

First of all, you are very smart to get your kids to prep as well as they can for the SAT.  I told my son it was the easiest money he would ever make.  Scholarships are tied to the SAT.  We can literally be talking 10s of 1000s of dollars.  Never again in one's life, most likely, will one get the opportunity to make so much money for so little effort.

 

As for how much help, I say: make them do for themselves what they can, coach them where they need, and help where they cannot...and perhaps most of all, IME, tell them what they don't know that they don't know.

 

I figure they are still ahead of me because at least someone will tell them this.

 

I saw a sign on the wall at school when the test date was.  I signed up.  I didn't even really know what the SAT was about except I heard I needed it for college.  Not that I'm a complete moron, but seriously nobody told me these things. 

 

And yes had I been able to do well maybe I would have gotten some more money.  I'm 41 year old and I am still paying for college. 

[FaithManor]

The only thing I am convinced of is that each generation, as a general rule, thinks they were the tops and the next generation is the pits.

 

Meanwhile, many of the aged are being supported by the younger generation, my parents included. I just remind them that unless the system is fixed, all the money dh and I pay in, all the money our kids pay in, won't be available to us so don't bite the hand that feeds you! There is a lot of that going on around here.

 

In terms of the 20 some-things that my 18 year old college boy hangs around at college? They are a conscientious, hard working bunch, excellent contributors to their community, and very globally minded so more aware of social issues compared to my parents' generation and by a BIIIIIIIG margin too! I don't really think it is here or there that they carry smart phones around.

 

There will always be flaky, bum-ish type people. Always. Every generation has had them. They always seem to get a lot more press than the conscientious young adults, the ones working three jobs to get ahead, the ones living with grandma and grandpa trying to help them out, the ones I see mowing lawns for the elderly or shoveling snow all for free, the ones working the soup kitchen, the food pantry...these are all things that not a single person in my parents age group - that I knew - participated in and that includes my parents who were pretty decent people in their own right but now as retirees in poor health are pretty snarky about the generation that is busting its butt to take care of them. Sigh....curmudgeons! That is a good word for it. Curmudgeon.

 

We all have different experiences so we will see things from a different perspective, but I don't think we should classify an entire generation by our limited experiences. That said, I still think my parents and their friends are curmudgeons! :D

Edited December 2, 2015 by FaithManor

[Nan in Mass]

I have to laugh.  A few minutes ago, we experienced a perfect example of the phone issue.  My mother tripped over the gardening tool bucket and strained her side, so my husband and I are living with her for a few weeks while she heals up.  We were eating supper together when my husband's phone rang.  He checked it despite it being dinner time since it is still working hours where some of his work is being done and he is expected to be available.  It was our oldest so he picked up.  Oldest is in California, waiting for work.  He and his friend were walking down the road from their hotel looking for some supper and remembered dad mentioning a good pizza place he'd discovered on a business trip in the area.  Directions were given.  They hung up.  Husband ate a few more bites then decided to check (on his phone) and see if he had misdirected them, since they were walking in a strange area in the dark.  More texts were exchanged when he determined it was going to take them an hour and a half on foot.  My mother finally commented that it still seemed very strange to her that her grandson could casually talk to us from the other side of the country.  I know it bothers her to have phones in use during dinner, even a picnic sort of dinner with us sitting on the floor of her bedroom so we could keep her company while she ate. Did we have to check the phone when it rang?  Yes.  Telecommuting didn't exist when the no phones during dinner rule was made.  Did we have to pick it up when we saw it was our son?  No.  But we've had some pretty hair-raising phone calls from our sons.  It is better for all concerned to answer when they call.  We could have said we were eating, was it an emergency.  Our son is perfectly capable of finding someplace to eat in a strange town.  He's done it many times.  But it is more friendly this way.  We all like the contact.  And it goes both ways.  I interrupted oldest a few hours earlier to ask where something for the fish tank was.  He saved me a bunch of search time by answering that text.  Anyway, I thought it was funny that I had such a clear example right after I wrote my earlier post. : )

 

Nan

Edited December 2, 2015 by Nan in Mass

[Meriwether]

My point is that most Gen Y kids had nothing like that. The average kid in Generation Y was near or below the poverty level in many areas. The average kid came from a broken home. I got the point. I just think they are wrong about how most people in the country are really living.

 

People aren't accustomed to vacations because the average kid like me grew up spending summer break indoors not allowed to play outside, while mom worked.

 

The article doesn't discuss a reality my family is familiar with.

 

Nobody wanted a dream job. They are mostly soldiers, nurses, mechanics, workers.

 

As much as the top 5% would like to believe otherwise, most of the country doesn't share their experience.

You know what? You don't have to agree with me, but you are arguing against something I never said. I am saying nothing about Generation Y in particular at all. I just made an observation about a tendency in human nature - from one generation to another. I grew up under the poverty line. There were things that *I* considered necessary that my dad felt were luxuries growing up. Like shoes. 

[Anne in CA]

Really? I hope there aren't any discrimination laws on the books in your locale, because that statement right there in bold, aside from being egregiously arrogant,  would have you up on labour charges and human rights violations so fast you your head would spin.

I don't think I can be charged with any labor violations for not hiring people who are only getting four hours a week at their current jobs. I will not hire anyone who tells me they just need a break. I will not hire anyone who says they were mistreated at their last place of employment. That demographic cost me about $15k last year and I won't dump that money down the sink next year. You are deliberately misinterpreting  what I am saying. The demographic I am talking of is not racial, it is wisdom related.

 

It must be nice to live in your world, lol. But some of us can't waste money on people who SAY they want to get their act together.

[Nan in Mass]

I had another thought. Where I live, only the teens who have parents with agricultural jobs or businesses can get jobs as teenagers. The rest are jobless. Even the volunteer work requires that you be over 18. There are legal concerns with hiring younger than that and there are so many over 18's who are available full time or at least aren,t working around school hours that nobody hires the teens. That means that many are working their first job at 20, unlike their parents, whose first "real" job was typically at about 16 in my area if their parents were white collar, or 12 or 13 otherwise.

 

Nan

[Lady Florida.]

I had another thought. Where I live, only the teens who have parents with agricultural jobs or businesses can get jobs as teenagers. The rest are jobless. Even the volunteer work requires that you be over 18. There are legal concerns with hiring younger than that and there are so many over 18's who are available full time or at least aren,t working around school hours that nobody hires the teens. That means that many are working their first job at 20, unlike their parents, whose first "real" job was typically at about 16 in my area if their parents were white collar, or 12 or 13 otherwise.

 

Nan

 

This is what's happening to ds. He has been job hunting since he was 15. Two summers ago he got hired at Dairy Queen for what was specifically a summer job. That DQ has now closed down. In the meantime, all of his job searching got him "you have to be 18" responses. When he turned 18 a few months ago, all those places that were hiring but not hiring anyone under 18, now aren't hiring. It's frustrating. There aren't typical teen jobs here. By the time I was his age I had been working fairly steadily (in this same city where we live now) for 2 years and had already had 2 different jobs. All he has is plenty of job hunting experience.

 

To make matters worse, he decided to try some of the auto parts stores. He hadn't tried them because he didn't think they'd hire someone who has neither knowledge nor interest in cars. But he tried. He's 18 now, right? He can apply anywhere most anywhere now. They told him you have to be 21.  :banghead:

 

If we were those "kick 'em out at eighteen" type parents, we'd be sending him into homelessness through no fault of his own.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Lady Florida

[Bluegoat]

There have been some studies done on the effects of trying to boost kids self-esteem in prticulr ways that have been popular in schools and such.  They found they were not only ineffective, they tended to have the opposite of the desired effect.  I think that is something that hs probably made a difference to young people that grew up with it.

[Greta]

There have been some studies done on the effects of trying to boost kids self-esteem in prticulr ways that have been popular in schools and such. They found they were not only ineffective, they tended to have the opposite of the desired effect. I think that is something that hs probably made a difference to young people that grew up with it.

 

Would you happen to know of any articles about this (which methods of boosting self-esteem were proven to be undesirable) that you could easily point me to? Or if you wouldn't mind taking the time to explain a little more, I'd be grateful to hear it.

[Bluegoat]

Would you happen to know of any articles about this (which methods of boosting self-esteem were proven to be undesirable) that you could easily point me to? Or if you wouldn't mind taking the time to explain a little more, I'd be grateful to hear it.

 

 

 

They found a few things.

 

One is that when kids are told that they are smart, or capable, or talented, it actually tends to backfire - they become more worried about success, more conservative about trying new things..  What works much better is for ability to be underemphasized and hard work to be noticed and promoted.

 

I don't remember as many details, but teams where everyone gets  medals were not effective - the kids simply saw them as meaningless.

 

OK - here is an article - I m not sure if it is great, but it gives the names of the main researchers on this and you can google them - there seems to be plenty online.

 

ET - this is the New York Mgzine rticle linked to - it is much better.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Bluegoat

[Greta]

when kids are told that they are smart, or capable, or talented, it actually tends to backfire

Oh, yes of course. I did know this but for some reason it wasn't coming to mind. Thank you! I look forward to reading the articles.

[Nan in Mass]

This is something that is discussed frequently on the accellerated board in regard to perfectionism and is a good point. The gist is that lots of praise tends to make a child think they need to do things well to please adults, which leads to them being afraid to try difficult things or things at which they might fail. Over the long term, this leads to perfectionism, which is a major handicap in many areas of life.

 

Nan

 

ETA I saw this at work in my own children, despite being fairly New England mingy about praising. I had to work hard to counteract it. Praising effort rather than results is still dangerous because in the workplace, results are what matter. Like most things, you have to hit the right balance between two extremes. Sigh.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Nan in Mass

[Nan in Mass]

Typing at the same time. : )

 

Nan

[Tsuga]

Protip: if you can't find good people, they are being paid more elsewhere.

[Guest]

Would you happen to know of any articles about this (which methods of boosting self-esteem were proven to be undesirable) that you could easily point me to? Or if you wouldn't mind taking the time to explain a little more, I'd be grateful to hear it.

 

There's a book, Mindset. I have not read it but my husband is a big fan.

 

Dweck also recently wrote an article about how ppl have misinterpreted/used the advice in the book. I'll see if I can find that.

[luuknam]

Wow, that's funny.  We didn't even have iphones until a few short years ago.  Imagine "not being able to live without it"? 

 

My Gen X wife is much more like that than I am (I'm Gen Y - I'm 31, she's 39). Not sure how much those things have to do with generations and the like. My wife is an only child and her parents don't always display much financial wisdom (despite the fact that her dad was a CPA). She's also bipolar, so that doesn't necessarily help either. And her parents do have about 12 times as many TVs per person as we do (they even had a TV in the bathroom!).

 

When were about to get married, I was all "we should make a budget", and she was like "after the wedding" (I arrived in the US about 3 weeks before the wedding). So, I reluctantly agreed. The morning after the wedding (first day of (short) honeymoon), I'm like "okay, it's after the wedding. you promised we'd make a budget now". That did not go over well, lol. In fact, almost 11 years later, we still don't have a budget (eventually I gave up trying, and since she's the breadwinner it's not like I can unilaterally impose a budget).

Edited December 2, 2015 by luuknam

[Tsuga]

That is frustrating, luuknam.

 

My partner and I are "Gen X". We use our phones for everything and when we imagine living without them, we just remember carrying around a bunch of paper in binders and sitting near the landline, LOL! We love texting. Imagine our parents when we were teens... they had to tell us to get off the phone to call the power company.

 

Now we have like, 6 ways to contact the power company and nobody has to stop texting. And we own our phones cash, all bought used, and all paying on month-to-month at the cheap rate. There is a reason it's such a growth industry.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Protip: if you can't find good people, they are being paid more elsewhere.

Yes. I'm so sick of reading articles about big corporations whining that they can't get decent workers so they need to import them on work visas. How about paying enough to attract good workers and/or training the ones you have to become much, much better.

[luuknam]

My partner and I are "Gen X". We use our phones for everything and when we imagine living without them, we just remember carrying around a bunch of paper in binders and sitting near the landline, LOL! We love texting. Imagine our parents when we were teens... they had to tell us to get off the phone to call the power company.

 

Oh, I agree that smart phones are pretty handy. What I don't get is the "my otherwise perfectly decent smart phone is sometimes slightly annoying me, so I *need* the newest iPhone". I didn't have a cell phone until I went to college at 19 (and then only because I didn't have a land line). My parents got their first cell phone when I was 15, and they'd let me borrow it when I took the train to another city to work on a magazine some nights (once a quarter or so). The year I spent in Thailand as an exchange student I called my parents maybe once a month on the school's pay phone. So yeah, I pretty much know what it's like without a cell phone. I think having a cell phone is almost necessary now if you're looking for a job. Smart phones can be really handy if you can afford them. But no one "needs" the newest iPhone.

 

ETA: my point being though, that it's not just some Gen Y who think that way. Some Gen X do too. And quite possibly some older people as well, though I don't have any examples (for one, I don't know that many Boomers).

Edited December 2, 2015 by luuknam

[T'smom]

 

 

What are the code words you watch out for? I don't have any need to hire anyone, but it would be good to know just in case ai ever do need to.

 

 

 

I think this is true and shows yet another benefit of strictly limiting TV for kids and especially keeping them away from commercials. I find that looking at women's magazines often makes me feel more unhappy about my appearance because of all the makeup ads showing airbrushed models with (fake) flawless skin. I'm more content if I stay away from them (and from looking at websites of multi-million dollar mansions as well.) It's no surprise that kids would be affected by TV shows and ads as well.

 

 

We were talking with a 17 year old Apple fanboy a month ago and he was talking about how bad he felt for a friend stuck with an iPhone 4. So I walked over and got out my 3g and showed it to him. After being horrified on my behalf, we eventually started joking that perhaps I'm turning into a retro hipster and will bring my typewriter to the coffee shop with me. Later he went back to be horrified about my phone, which he must see as one step above a paper cup with a string or sending smoke signals. He kept waving his around but I just said, "Hey, my phone is paid for. You have a 30 month loan on yours. That's about how long car loans used to be."

LOL about the paid for phone thing! I recently upgraded my iPhone (I had been having a lot of trouble with my 4S- I wasn't getting texts, things kept crashing, etc.) not to the absolute newest, but a newer one. Anyway, we went to the Sprint store to buy the phone and the guy did not know how to sell it to us because we didn't want to lease it- we just wanted to buy it outright. He couldn't figure out how to do that and he was the manager. He had to call someone at another store to ask them! I know it's not super common to pay cash for things, but I wouldn't have thought we were the only ones the guy had ever dealt with!

 

Also, AMEN to the commercial TV! We have not had cable since the kids were born, so I am not used to dealing with commercials. But we just spent 2 weeks at my parents house around Thanksgiving and the kids' Christmas lists exploded with things they previously didn't know existed.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes. I'm so sick of reading articles about big corporations whining that they can't get decent workers so they need to import them on work visas. How about paying enough to attract good workers and/or training the ones you have to become much, much better.

 

Oh so so so flipping true!!!

 

The city I live in gave a local company some grants to open up an office downtown.  This was all celebrated as look at the jobs that will be created.  Except now they are opening an office in China because they claim they can't find enough computer programmers to fill their positions.  This is absolute bologna. 

[Tsuga]

Gen Y you are not alone in your failures. Apparently, Gen X "Can't Save Money"

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/06/04/why-gen-x-cant-save-money/

Neither can my boomer mom actually. I mean she saves a bit, but then investment funds lose it. It would be hilarious if this did not translate into possible serious hardship!!!