DE vs. "Non-Degree Special Student" (for young student) (cross-posted)

[Dmmetler]

DD10's mentors feel that it's time for her to move to start taking actual college classes and developing a transcript, mostly to make her eligible for more summer short courses, programs, and so on.

 

DD does not qualify for DE without having Junior standing. If she were a high school junior or senior, DE would be mostly paid for. We could redo her transcript making last year her freshman year and this year a sophomore year, but it would be a fairly weak transcript, except for science. She can (and has) passed the state algebra gateway normally done after Algebra 2 (I had her attempt it after AOPS intro to algebra because it had covered most of the syllabus). She took the SAT this month, but we don't have scores yet.

 

Instead of DE, one of the schools locally has suggested that she apply for "Non-Degree Special Student" for now. This status is normally used for people applying to college who have a major weakness in their application, like no high school diploma or poor test scores. Assuming her SAT meets at least the school's minimum (which really isn't hard), we could do so with her transcript as is without changing her on-paper grade, with her "special" status being her lack of junior standing. The in-state tuition isn't bad-really, not all that different from doing most online courses.

 

If we did this route, they'd want her to take their "Introduction to college" study skills course, which she could do online this Spring or summer. In the Fall, they'd want her to take a math course, which, given the level she's done at home and her Gateway score, would probably be college algebra (She'll have to do their math placement exam as well). She could take it in an "extended" path, which would be 2 semesters,or do college algebra the first semester and trigonometry the 2nd (which would have her ready to go into calculus). She could take up to 6-8 credits each semester.

 

After a year, they would evaluate her performance, and if she's done well, she would be able to move to regular student status, which would make her eligible for financial aid. The person who suggested this thinks that they could then list her as a DE student, rather than as a degree seeking student, although she may still not be eligible for state grants until she's a junior in high school.

 

I guess my question is-is this a good idea for a student starting DE early? Are there pitfalls or concerns in doing it this way?

[Pegasus]

I only have experience in Tennessee but my DD was able to start taking dual enrollment courses (to be clear- courses offered at the community college that would count as credit towards both our homeschooled high school and college) before her junior year in high school.  Yes, the state grant didn't kick in until junior year, but she was still considered dual enrollment (self pay) before that.  This is up to the school to define the type of student.  

 

As long as the courses taken as a "non-degree special student" provide college credit on the transcript, I don't really see a possible downside.  You may want to look ahead to possible colleges/universities of interest to be sure that there isn't a cap on the number of credits entering freshman are allowed before they are considered transfer students.  The ones we looked at in Tennessee didn't have a cap as long as all the credits were earned before high school graduation. The reason this could be important is that there are many more scholarships open to freshmen.

 

For what it is worth, the first course my DD took was a college study type course.  It was excellent and a great way to begin.  Is there any way your DD could take it live on campus?  It makes a great transition to campus courses and DD's forced the students to visit the various college resources as part of the course: tutoring center, advising center, library, computing lab, testing center, etc.  I think you would losing the main advantages by taking it online.

[TechWife]

I would encourage you to look at the overall picture beyond academics for a student of this young age. A child of ten is just beginning to enter puberty and there will be a lot of physical and emotional changes and challenges ahead. Even if a student is mature for their current age, it doesn't mean that they always will be. Because development is asynchronous, it may be that your daughter has been expending a lot of energy on developing her intellectual abilities, yet in the near future she may need to spend her energy developing physically and emotionally. During this time she will likely continue to progress academically, but she may progress at a slower rate. Additionally, her academic interests may change as well as her extra curricular and social interests - maintaining a sense of normalcy would be doubly important as these changes take place. Is a community college environment the best place for her to be as she develops? 

 

 

[kiana]

I would go ahead and do it. Study skills is very hard to do poorly in if you turn all the stuff in. If she decides it is not for her, she can always just not take the math in the fall and change her mind. 

 

I would probably go for the extended format math class, though, given her age, and if necessary enrich with more work in other areas of mathematics or more challenging algebra problems (AOPS Intermediate would be a great source of much more challenging problems and topics to parallel a college algebra class). It is quite possible that she could handle the standard pace but you really don't want to be wrong about it for her early experiences, and math isn't her passion anyway. 

[Dmmetler]

This is actually a state U vs a CC-so far, they're more willing to consider the possibility. Courses would count on the transcript, although mostly as electives (college algebra and college pre-calculus would not count for the math requirements as a biology major, for example, but would if she decided to switch gears to something non-STEM).

 

DD really wants to go to an early college program with kids her age. This is the local fall back if that doesn't work, that would at least allow her to keep moving forward in her interest areas, while she can still do the local stuff with kids closer to her age for social reasons. A big consideration is that there are some really good summer short courses in field research techniques that she would enjoy and would be valuable for her, but we need to check boxes for the sponsoring college/university.

[SkateLeft]

I'd go ahead and do it if I felt it best met my student's needs. My oldest started taking classes through a state university talent search program when she was 10, and I have no regrets. She started full-time DE at 14 and I graduated her at 16. She was a mature kid and preferred the company of adults from a pretty young age, so we never had to deal with social issues. For what it's worth, she did the extended path (College Algebra -> Trig -> Calc) and it worked out very well for her. My younger dd did the one semester pre-calc -> calc and it was a significantly greater workload in a shorter period of time.

 

 

[Dmmetler]

I would go ahead and do it. Study skills is very hard to do poorly in if you turn all the stuff in. If she decides it is not for her, she can always just not take the math in the fall and change her mind.

 

I would probably go for the extended format math class, though, given her age, and if necessary enrich with more work in other areas of mathematics or more challenging algebra problems (AOPS Intermediate would be a great source of much more challenging problems and topics to parallel a college algebra class). It is quite possible that she could handle the standard pace but you really don't want to be wrong about it for her early experiences, and math isn't her passion anyway.

I'm glad to hear you say this-AOPS has been good for her, so I hate to give it up. Spreading out over 2 semesters and adding AOPS problems to match the topics sounds good. She'll probably do Environmental Science next year if we go this route, which doesn't have a math prerequisite, and is interesting to her (and is considered to be "easier" than the biology for bio majors sequence).

[shawthorne44]

It sounds like a lovely idea.  No experience to add, though.  

 

[kiana]

I'm glad to hear you say this-AOPS has been good for her, so I hate to give it up. Spreading out over 2 semesters and adding AOPS problems to match the topics sounds good. She'll probably do Environmental Science next year if we go this route, which doesn't have a math prerequisite, and is interesting to her (and is considered to be "easier" than the biology for bio majors sequence).

 

I think environmental science sounds like a brilliant early course for her. I am sure you already know this, but remember to keep a careful eye on drop deadlines so that if things are overwhelming she can take a W. There is nothing wrong with having a W at an early age, but a poor grade is more serious. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Make sure you consider the impact college classes will have on the rest of your schooling. It took getting used to the inflexibility of the college schedule. We couldn't just take off for a week or even a long weekend.

 

The need to keep up with college assignments also put home directed classes on the back burner. History and English suffered as a result. DS spent over 300 hours in the online math program for one semester College Algebra. He learned a lot but that was time not spent on other subjects

 

What about taking College Algebra one semester and AoPS work the next semester, then Trig on campus for a semester and AoPS work the next. That might give her the academic rep she wants while not speeding things up too fast.

[Bootsie]

Some schools have an additional category of "transient student--non degree seeking."  At times this will allow a student to take a course without being admitted to the university.  Often the number of hours that can be taken with this designation will be limited.  If it is a state school you are considering, the options will vary from state to state.

 

I would carefully consider placing a 10-year old in a college class, even if they can handle the academics.  Although gifted youngsters may be able to handle the academic work of a typical college student, they are not miniature college students.  The "Introduction to College" course may contain information about date rape, alcohol and drug abuse, etc.  A math class is not as likely to have "adult material" as a literature class might be, but your child will be included in the daily conversations of college students (which the content can vary widely across different schools, so I would make sure I know what the environment is like.)

 

Also, a lot of logistical issues can come up when a minor is in what is presumed to be an adult environment.  Should a fire alarm go off during class, students will get up and evacuate the building.  There will be no getting in line, walking orderly out of the building, and having a teacher count everyone.  College students can show up to class and find that the class has been cancelled and they are free to go.  Are you going to be waiting for a 10-year old if this happens? 

[MarkT]

How about a MOOC?

[Dmmetler]

She's been effectively doing MOOCs with professor assistance/feedback and working in a college lab and in the field on selected projects for 2 years. The reason for pursuing real classes is because she's now at the point where it's a hoop that needs jumping. This is just one way of potentially jumping that hoop, but it comes with it's own (Iike having to take college algebra vs continuing with math at home).

[Bristayl]

From what you're describing, to me it sounds like the non-degree special student would be the way to go. Personally I wouldn't risk weakening her transcript by changing her grade level. If you have hesitations about the particular college that is offering this, it may be that others would have a similar way to take classes without being an official DE student. Here, for example, some colleges allow students to apply for "individual approval"--I know some who have had younger students take classes that way.

[Bristayl]

I should add that there also may be certain colleges who would allow a younger student to take classes even as a DE student. Maybe you have already looked thoroughly and haven't found any, but here, even though in my state the law until this past summer also limited DE to juniors and seniors, I did some research and found three community colleges and one four-year-university that allowed freshmen and sophomores. My dd is now taking classes from the four-year-university at the DE price, although she is doing them online because the university is not in our area. Of course, I don't know what grade you are considering your dd to be in currently; I don't have experience with looking for DE for students lower than 9th grade.

[Nan in Mass]

I,m pretty sure mine were this. They weren,t dual enrolled. Mine were a lot older when they did it but duel enrollment wasn,t common here. That term sounds very familiar.

 

I,d be a bit wary of compositions read aloud by other students. Mine ran into some pretty tough subjects. The one on birth control issues was a non-event compared to some of the "your past experience" ones. I,d definitely check the content of the study class. One of mine took one and said it was more about how to survive college than how to study. Composition 1 was where the library tour and research resources were taught. We found that ours had to adjust to learning in a classroom, so doing the math slowly might not be a bad idea. We found the community college earlier math classes to be pretty rudimentary, something which put mine at a bit of a disadvantage later, at university. Not much problem solving taught until calc, for example. Nothing like my own high school math classes (top math track), so I think the idea of doing the slower classes and doubling it with AOPS is a good one. Otherwise, there may be topics and problem solving techniques skipped. Or not. Maybe the uni does a better job at this than our cc.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Oh, and about advancing her, I wouldn,t. You can always do it later if you decide to, but putting her back a grade later will be very difficult, if for some reason you want to. If you wait, you will have more control over her schooling for longer, if you decide she lacks the maturity to do a good job with this herself. A year can make a big difference in a teen,s life and outlook. She might need or want that year before she moves on to the next stage of her schooling. It will give her another year to work on her own projects, too, if she wants to. It is easy enough to rewrite her transcript to make her graduate early when the time comes, if you need to. It might not be so easy to tell her you have changed your mind and want to keep her back another year.

 

Nan

[JoanHomeEd]

Just read this over at CC,

 

Homeschooled with MIT courses at 5, accepted to MIT at 15

http://news.mit.edu/2015/ahaan-rungta-mit-opencourseware-mitx-1116

[Dmmetler]

Thanks, everyone! I'm planning to do more calling around and have DD do more contacting once we have SAT scores in hand, and see which way to go. There are a couple of private colleges (and a CC, but it would be a longer drive than the state U or private college) may be an option (and, of course, online classes as well, but since the primary reason is science, that's problematic long-term.

 

This guidance counselor gig isn't for the faint of heart! How do all you folks wirh juniors and seniors do it??

[katilac]

I wouldn't do it unless it were absolutely, positively the only way she could have engaging courses and experiences.

 

College courses suck up many of the great things about homeschooling, imo.  

 

Even if the student takes only 1 or 2 classes, your schedule is no longer your own. No more random days off because the weather is gorgeous and we'll make it up later, no more trips at odd times because you found a great deal. Much less learning for the sake of learning. 

 

There's an emphasis on grades that goes beyond what many homeschoolers are comfortable with, and the student who is logging hours in a required course with big consequences often doesn't have the time or inclination for rabbit trails in that subject anymore. 

 

If she gets to be DE within a year or two, I would want to check on things like whether there is a restriction on how many years you can do it, will she accumulate too many credits for the colleges she is interested in to consider her an incoming freshman, and so on. 

 

I'd consider what Techwife said about puberty, what Jdahlquist said about practicalities, and what Nan said about compositions and assigned reading. Lots of sex, violence, and trauma in both. Plus violent sex, and traumatic sex. Did I mention sex? Lots of sex. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but definitely some stuff I wouldn't have wanted my kids reading before they were even teenagers. 

 

You say they would want her to take a math class in the fall - why is that? 

 

Could staying non-degree seeking and taking only electives get her the same access? That would be my top choice if I decided it was worth it. One elective per semester, foreign language would probably be a good choice to start. Math doesn't have the content issues that humanities classes have, but if my student was learning and succeeding with AoPS, I'd hate to give that up for a typical gen ed course. 

 

Is there another way to jump this hoop? 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2015 by katilac

[katilac]

Also, if you keep her at grade-level and don't do DE, the classes most likely won't have to be recorded on her high school transcript. 

 

The minute she is considered high school, they have to be recorded. 

 

Of course, if she excels in all of them, they won't go into her GPA but can certainly be put on the transcript and noted as, "Taken before 9th-grade." 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Also, if you keep her at grade-level and don't do DE, the classes most likely won't have to be recorded on her high school transcript.

 

The minute she is considered high school, they have to be recorded.

 

Of course, if she excels in all of them, they won't go into her GPA but can certainly be put on the transcript and noted as, "Taken before 9th-grade."

I don't agree with the idea that any college course taken during high school must appear on the high school transcript. In fact in our state one reasons homeschool and private school students have a different DE status from public school students is that the private schools cannot be required to accept CC courses for credit.

 

Dual Enrollment policies vary quite a bit from state to state and even district to district. Credit policies are not the same everywhere.

 

Having said that, the course would be part of the student's college record. College applications typically ask about any colleges attended and request official transcripts. I don't recall them asking only about courses taken during high school.

 

To the OP, would auditing make sense in this situation or does she need the actual credits?

[katilac]

DP, see below. 

 

Edited November 24, 2015 by katilac

[katilac]

I don't agree with the idea that any college course taken during high school must appear on the high school transcript. In fact in our state one reasons homeschool and private school students have a different DE status from public school students is that the private schools cannot be required to accept CC courses for credit.

 

Dual Enrollment policies vary quite a bit from state to state and even district to district. Credit policies are not the same everywhere.

 

Having said that, the course would be part of the student's college record. College applications typically ask about any colleges attended and request official transcripts. I don't recall them asking only about courses taken during high school.

 

To the OP, would auditing make sense in this situation or does she need the actual credits?

 

How does it matter if the college courses are submitted as part of the high school transcript or as a separate transcript? The point is that they must be submitted one way or the other, and that they will be taken into consideration. It's certainly not a plus if you took college courses after high school and performed poorly. 

 

Either way, all of our applications did specifically ask about college courses taken in high school, including the Common App.

 

If they don't count for high school credit, then they don't go into the high school GPA but the college GPA is still listed. If they do count for high school credit, they go into that GPA but the college courses GPA is still listed separately. 

 

I think the OP's daughter needs the 'paperwork' of actually being enrolled in classes in order to access other programs. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I went back and checked the Common App. You're right that it asked about college courses taken in 9th grade and above. I had remembered it asking for any college classes.

[Baile]

I think you're definitely on the right track with pursuing non-degree status rather than altering your daughter's grade level. My oldest son is taking his first course at our state university this semester, as an "Early Admission" student (which, for our purposes, is equivalent to what most universities call dual enrollment). He's not much older than your daughter, and at this point we're still being very careful about how much of his time and how much flexibility we're willing to give up. For that reason, I would be a little concerned that the courses she's being asked to take are not the best use of her time. 

 

I'm curious whether the courses that you mentioned are being "recommended", or does the university require that non-degree seeking students take a study skills course and a math course before taking any others? Unless they have a specific policy on this, I would push for them to allow her to take a course that she actually needs.

 

It is so easy to "hoop jump" in math that it seems like a shame to have her take math at the university before at least calculus. The amount of time spent in class, commuting, and doing homework adds up quickly, and I don't know that a College Algebra class would be sufficiently challenging or rewarding to make the time commitment worthwhile for a gifted younger kid. If she does end up taking College Algebra at the university, I like Sebastian (a lady)'s suggestion of taking a semester "off" to work on AoPS or some other math topics that interest her. 

[MarkT]

 

 

It is so easy to "hoop jump" in math that it seems like a shame to have her take math at the university before at least calculus. The amount of time spent in class, commuting, and doing homework adds up quickly, and I don't know that a College Algebra class would be sufficiently challenging or rewarding to make the time commitment worthwhile for a gifted younger kid. If she does end up taking College Algebra at the university, I like Sebastian (a lady)'s suggestion of taking a semester "off" to work on AoPS or some other math topics that interest her. 

I totally agree for a future scholar don't attend B&M college for any math before Calculus 1.  So many other ways out there.

[Dmmetler]

What DD needs is a college class or two, preferably in biology or a related science, to clear prerequisites to do other classes, mostly special topics ones. It doesn't really matter if it counts as high school or college credit, only that it's there. The ideal would be a class with a live lab component. I'm not concerned about her skill level because she's been doing college labs with her mentor's classes for a couple of years, unofficially (unfortunately, her mentor's school is a 3 hour drive. I can do that once in awhile, but not 4 days a week, which is what their general biology with lab would run. Until now, we've only driven in for labs that could not be done at home). An online class would possibly work, but is definitely 2nd best. The university we're looking at is a reasonable distance and seems like a good place to take a few classes. I'd like to hold off on anything humanities focused until she's high school age, but they have enough science and math courses and electives that she could take a class or two a semester and still have stuff to take later if she so desires. And, it's not super-expensive for local, in-state residents, even without the DE funding.

 

 

 

The study skills and math are requirements for this particular school for applicants with gaps/issues in their application. In DD's case, that's not being a high school student/having all the transcript boxes checked. We should have her SAT scores in hand (they're out now, but I didn't bother to bring the information needed to call for them over Thanksgiving), and I hope that will help her case.