ProudGrandma Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I need to find a different Algebra 1 book for my daughter. I need one that has LOTS of practice problems and goes slow...but will qualify for a high school algebra credit. Just so you know, MUS and Saxon are not good options for our kids. Oh, the other thing I need is a teacher's manual with full solutions to the problems...not just the answers. And I can't afford a super expensive program. Please tell me there are options out there...I am nervous that I won't be able to find what she needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Jacobs Elementary Algebra? The first 5 chapters are a very thorough review of PreA concepts. There are a lot of practice problems, two full Sets for each chapter. Typically you just assign one set, but if extra practice is needed you can assign both. There are various versions of TMs, I'm not sure if there is a version with fully worked out solutions. There are also classes that use this book, like Dr. Callahan, if you want even more teaching support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Jacobs is fabulous, but if you want a more traditional approach, the Lial books are great and have excellent solutions manuals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 CLE Algebra is inexpensive, and has lots of review. I think I remember there being full solutions to all problems, but cant' be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 Jacobs is fabulous, but if you want a more traditional approach, the Lial books are great and have excellent solutions manuals. The Lial books are expensive on Amazon and I am not even sure which one I would want. I can't find an actual website..is there one? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 CLE Algebra is inexpensive, and has lots of review. I think I remember there being full solutions to all problems, but cant' be sure. It seems like this is not complete...I mean...I on the website all I see are preliminary books...and not even all of them...#10 of 10 is not on the site. So will #10 be done by the time I need it and will I then need to pay shipping for that one little book? Or am I totally missing something here? another question...is this program like Saxon (spiral)? or mastery?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 The Lial books are expensive on Amazon and I am not even sure which one I would want. I can't find an actual website..is there one? There are links to Lial's in the pinned thread at the top, but here is another one to the student book. It is all you asked for. It has a ridiculous number of problems, is solid high school level, and can be paced to student mastery. It is also extremely cheap, so it is easy to try without financial pain. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 thanks. Do I need to buy a teacher's book too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 It seems like this is not complete...I mean...I on the website all I see are preliminary books...and not even all of them...#10 of 10 is not on the site. So will #10 be done by the time I need it and will I then need to pay shipping for that one little book? Or am I totally missing something here? another question...is this program like Saxon (spiral)? or mastery?? Not sure what you are looking at....all ten are here on this page. https://www.clp.org/store/by_course/175 they say preliminary because they eventually are going to put it all in a hardcover book, instead of 10 paper ones. That's all. it's complete. And it is spiral, not mastery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 so if Saxon wasn't a good fit then these wont' be either, right?? The link you sent did have all 10...the page I was looking at only had 9...must have been an old page or something. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 thanks. Do I need to buy a teacher's book too? I recommend the student solutions manual, but you don't need a teacher's manual. The regular book has all the teaching and the answers to odd problems, all review problems and the test. The solutions manual gives full solutions instead of just answers to all those same problems. You don't need it if you are confident in being able to figure out the work based on the answers alone. I'm not sure what the TM gives. It is expensive and more difficult to find. I've never actually seen one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3andme Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I have used CLE Algebra. While it is spiral like Saxon, you might still look at it. The explanations are very clear - it is only Algebra with some statistics as opposed to Saxon which I believe also incorporates geometry. The solutions book does have step-by-step answers. If you weren't concerned with cost, I would also recommend Math Relief. It is a video based program with worksheets. The worksheets have completely worked solutions. It provides a ton of practice and is very incremental. You can sometimes find used copies for less on Homeschoolclassifieds or ebay. Here is a Cathy Duffy review of the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 We use Lial's. You don't have to buy the current edition (which would be super expensive). I am using Lial's introductory algebra (alg 1) edition 8. We started school 7 weeks ago and about 2 weeks ago I bought the Solutions Manual to go along with it. The solutions manual has the solutions for all the problems, odds and evens. The work is written out. The teacher's edition just gives the final answer for the odds only, so if you can't figure out how they came to that answer, tough. You do not need the teacher's edition since it is exactly like the student, only the answers to the odds are on the work pages and not just in the back of the book. The answers to the odds are also in the back of the student book. The only benefit (the ONLY benefit) to the teacher's edition is that if you're teaching a class, you don't have to turn to the back of the book for the final answer--you can see it right on the page. (But not the work--just the final answer.) Lial's is for college kids who need to take high school Algebra I before starting college level math. It does not have long wordy paragraphs on how to learn the problems. It is a pretty straight-forward college math text book. My 13 year old would struggle if he had to do it completely alone. I started the year by going over the lessons the night before and then talking them over with my son as we read through them. But then I found out that the books come with CDs where someone else talks over the lessons for me. I got the CDs when I got the solutions manual (about 2 weeks ago). It looks like they got college students to do the lessons and not real instructors. So far, we've seen 2 different "instructors" teach the lessons and I think they're just students "teaching" the lessons. They go over the examples in the book and read the important parts out loud, sort of explaining it, instead of the student just reading for him/herself. WIth that said, I do like using the CDs to save my own voice from doing all the talking. And my son doesn't zone out quite as much now that he thinks he has a teacher to watch on the CD, vs just his mom teaching him. :) There are a lot of practice problems. We watch a lesson on one day. Then, I give my son 1/2 of the odds to do the next day. Lastly, I give him the 2nd 1/2 of the odds to do the third day. We do algebra for 55 minutes during our school day, and any left over and any corrections that need to be done are done as "homework" that evening. So, he does Algebra for about 1.5-2 hours a day. I was surprised at how long it takes him to do his problems. They challenge him. Yesterday he had only 14 problems to do, yet it took him the full 55 minutes to do those problems and then about 20 minutes that evening to correct a few calculations errors he had. If I wanted him to do more problems (please no!) I could assign the evens as well. I got the 8th edition for about $5. The solutions manual was about $35. The cds were $25. (If you want a link to amazon where I bought them let me know.) The only reason I also have the teacher's edition ($10) is that when I ordered the student's book, they accidentally sent me the teacher's edition. I went ahead and kept it because it's nice for my son and I to both have a copy of the book so we're not reading over each other's shoulders when we're looking things up in the books. ETA: The reason I got the 8th edition was that it was recommended here on the WTM boards as being an especially good edition. The only reason they keep updating these books is that there's some sort of rule (?) that college texts need to be updated every couple of years. (That's what I've heard.) So, you're safe going back a few editions and using those. And since all the college students are trying to get rid of their old editions, you can get them pretty cheap online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkT Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 ALGEBRA I: A FRESH APPROACH http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542418-homeschooling-high-school-math/?do=findComment&comment=6190964 worth looking into Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 ALGEBRA I: A FRESH APPROACH http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542418-homeschooling-high-school-math/?do=findComment&comment=6190964 worth looking into this is actually the one she has started and it is not a good fit. But I am hoping it might be for my boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverMoon Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I'll second or third Lial. They have good explanations, thorough examples so you can see how it's done, and works you through the concept in little steps. My kids only did the odd problems and that was more than enough. There's gobs! Get an older edition in the used book section on Amazon. I haven't paid more than $20 for any of our Lial student book/solutions manual sets. The edition you doesn't matter; just make sure the image matches on the covers of the student text and solutions manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I love Jacob's. It has been my favorite so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 what Lials book is Algebra 1? and is there any place where I can see the inside of these books?? thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I would suggest working through Keys to Algebra first and then move on to another program. Or do it concurrently. Get through the first three or four books and then start the algebra program. It sounds like you have tried a lot of programs with little success, so at this point, I would take a different tactic. Sometimes, well, actually, usually, it is better to back up a little and then move forward than it is to keep trying to spin your wheels and getting no where. If you have tried 3 programs with no success, then it probably is not the program anymore. Edited to add: I do not mean you are the problem. I just mean, maybe they need more prep or something for the program. I find Keys to Algebra to make an excellent prep as well as goes along side well. It helps clarify everything more and gives extra practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverMoon Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Lial alg 1 = Introductory Algebra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 Lial alg 1 = Introductory Algebra glad I asked....was I was thinking that one was pre-algebra. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverMoon Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Np. :) The rest of the line is: BCM - basic arithmetic Prealgebra - basic arithmetic with negatives, exponents, and such Introductory Algebra - alg 1 Intermediate Algebra - alg 2 She wrote a geometry too, but it doesn't seem to be as well liked as her alg books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 I would suggest working through Keys to Algebra first and then move on to another program. Or do it concurrently. Get through the first three or four books and then start the algebra program. It sounds like you have tried a lot of programs with little success, so at this point, I would take a different tactic. Sometimes, well, actually, usually, it is better to back up a little and then move forward than it is to keep trying to spin your wheels and getting no where. If you have tried 3 programs with no success, then it probably is not the program anymore. Edited to add: I do not mean you are the problem. I just mean, maybe they need more prep or something for the program. I find Keys to Algebra to make an excellent prep as well as goes along side well. It helps clarify everything more and gives extra practice. I have probably confused many people. Let me explain a bit....sorry to those who have been following me all alone. I have started many threads about our math woes. Last year my daughter went through the pre-algebra book put out by College of the Redwoods (Memoria Press uses this). She did wonderfully with it. She was gaining confidence and was understanding and learning. I was going to use the same program with algebra, except the publishers didn't make up quizzes or tests and I don't feel qualified to do that myself. So I was off to find a new program. Someone here suggested using "Algebra, a fresh approach". It looked good to me, so I bought it. We went through the first chapter, my daughter seemed to understand the first chapter on intergers (a review) (however, because she is a very independent worker, I let her grade her own work and instead of letting me know what she missed, she just corrected it and moved on) and then she bombed the test. So we went back lesson by lesson and I discovered that she was forgetting the rules. So, we practiced and we practiced using worksheets I found on free sites on line (but I started running out). So someone here recommended that I keep reviewing and continue on. So I did that...but as we continued, I started realizing that this book might be moving too quickly for her...with not enough practice problems and it was lumping too many concepts together. My daughter is in 9th grade...so I was hoping to not get any further behind in her math track....but I know ultimately her understanding is the goal. One other slightly important issue is her younger brother (who is only a year behind her. He will be starting pre-algebra by Jan or so....and if he catches up to her, it will completely ruin any confidence we were able to gain...so if she has to do 2 algebra years, her second will be his first...and that will just devastate her...unless he has to take 2 years, which won't be the case). So with all of that information does anybody have anything different to add. Until I figure this out, we have kind of come to a screeching halt with math. thank you so much for all of your help thus far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 ALGEBRA I: A FRESH APPROACH http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542418-homeschooling-high-school-math/?do=findComment&comment=6190964 worth looking into This is my recommendation as well. And the author is very helpful with any questions you might have. Highly recommend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 This is my recommendation as well. And the author is very helpful with any questions you might have. Highly recommend. Algebra 1 A Fresh Approach I just saw that you are already using this. Can you explain why you think it isn't a good fit? That might help with suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverMoon Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) . Edited September 23, 2023 by SilverMoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 These are the Lial books I would get: Lial's Introductory Algebra (I'd get a copy designated "new" as this edition tends to get marked up) Instructor's Solution Manual (This one has solutions to all problems) Printed Test Bank (If you want tests other than the practice tests in the book) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 I just saw that you are already using this. Can you explain why you think it isn't a good fit? That might help with suggestions. She struggled with the first chapter...so we are reviewing those types of problems and moved on to chapter 2. As we go through the first lessons in chapter 2, it seems like my daughter sort of gets the concepts...but still misses little things...and struggles to remember the rules...it just seems to be moving quickly because this is stuff she should already know from pre-algebra....which she did when did it last year. do you think I should stick with it and see what happens?? I just don't want too much more time to go by only to have to change subjects anyway. So I am seriously not sure what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 So with all of that information does anybody have anything different to add. Until I figure this out, we have kind of come to a screeching halt with math. thank you so much for all of your help thus far. With all that I recommend Lial's even more. It is great about teaching every concept from the beginning, no prior knowledge assumed. My kids came from MUS to Lial's. There was a lot that they hadn't covered that they would have in a typical Pre-Algebra program. We just took it slow and Lial's filled in all the gaps. It did make for a long year of Algebra, but it worked beautifully and they were both able to go on from there without a struggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 These are the Lial books I would get: Lial's Introductory Algebra (I'd get a copy designated "new" as this edition tends to get marked up) Instructor's Solution Manual (This one has solutions to all problems) Printed Test Bank (If you want tests other than the practice tests in the book) the third link isn't a book of tests...its the same as the solution manual. Can you check that out please Also I wonder how quickly I can get these book...I have lost enough time already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 the third link isn't a book of tests...its the same as the solution manual. Can you check that out please Also I wonder how quickly I can get these book...I have lost enough time already. Sorry about that. Here is the corrected link. I've corrected my other post as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 whoa....those are expensive. Will the practice tests be good enough? or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 whoa....those are expensive. Will the practice tests be good enough? or not? They will work fine. You just won't have another form of the test if your student needs a redo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 is there any place where I can see the Lial's books?? I am just having a hard time buying something without seeing it...although I am leaning that direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 11, 2015 Author Share Posted October 11, 2015 I noticed that the 9th edition of Lial's has a DVD to go with it. Is it any good? Is it helpful? I haven't looked at the price of the books yet for this edition....so if they are real expensive, I probably won't do it unless you all think the DVD is super great. eta: the books are reasonably priced....but I would still like to know if there is any reason why 9th is not as good as 8th...and if the DVD is helpful or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 She struggled with the first chapter...so we are reviewing those types of problems and moved on to chapter 2. As we go through the first lessons in chapter 2, it seems like my daughter sort of gets the concepts...but still misses little things...and struggles to remember the rules...it just seems to be moving quickly because this is stuff she should already know from pre-algebra....which she did when did it last year. do you think I should stick with it and see what happens?? I just don't want too much more time to go by only to have to change subjects anyway. So I am seriously not sure what to do. What grade/age is your daughter? When my son first started with A Fresh Approach, he wasn't doing as well as I had expected. So I emailed the author who explained that he didn't need to do all the problems (which I was assigning) and to continue to move through the chapters. She recommended doing all evens or all odds. That would leave other problems he could use to practice. She also mentioned that each chapter reviews the last and there are chapters that are review chapters. For my son, if he did decently well (80%), I had him move on through until we got to the review chapter. If he didn't do well on the chapter review test, we went back to the chapter (with the kind of problems he missed) and did the other problems (odds/evens). Surprisingly, after the first review test, he started doing much better. It took him a bit of time to settle in. But in the end it was a super fit for him. He moved from there to Singapore DM which is the program his brother was using. Over the years I've found that most programs will do the job for most kids. Sometimes we just had plod through and in the end the kids succeeded with whatever program we were using. But if they weren't developmentally ready for the work, it didn't matter what we used; we just had to wait and try it again later. If your daughter is struggling with pre-algebra there is no algebra program that will work for her. She might need to do a quick review before tackling algebra. I'd recommend that you email the author and talk to her about it. She will know whether your daughter is ready for algebra and/or whether the program will work for her. She's really very helpful and kind. As an aside, we tried Lials with and without the Chalkdust DVDs and we did not like them at all. It wasn't that they wouldn't "work" but rather that the boys found them so boring and I found the teaching method to be quite different from any we had used before. After sitting through a couple of the lectures and following the teaching/assignments, I completely understood my sons' frustration with it. We didn't enjoy Jacob's either. We tried a lot (with 4 sons we had a lot of opportunity) and eventually realized that school textbooks were not our style. So we got rid of those and went back to Singapore which was more like my teaching style. So...Lial's is obviously a popular program and kids do well with it, but it wasn't for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 11, 2015 Author Share Posted October 11, 2015 my daughter is in 9th grade...and is 15 years old. Did the author get back to you quickly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 I should mention that I have not used Lial's by simply handing it to my student and telling him to go for it. I use the teaching in it as a guide for me, and I teach him myself. The teaching in the Lial books is thorough, but it is uninspired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 my daughter is in 9th grade...and is 15 years old. Did the author get back to you quickly? Yes she did. I believe it was the same day, in fact. But this was when my son was in 9th and he is 20 years old now lol. And just for reference, this son is taking Differential Equations this semester and doing great Here's her website: http://www.aplusses.com/zencart/ There is a "contact us" tab which allows you to ask a question. I'll try to find her response to me, but I'm pretty sure I've deleted it. I found an old thread I posted in from 2010: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/226463-tell-me-about-algebra-i-a-fresh-approach/ She is on Chegg as well (that's a site my sons use in college - it gives detailed solutions to problems): https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/christy-walters-author Here's an email from Ms Walters in response to some questions I had (from 2009) Yes, I do have tests available. I haven't gotten around to putting them on the website yet, but the price is the same as that of the solution manual. So, if you want a test packet, you can just order a solution manual and then reply to this email and say that you really want the test packet instead. As for your question about where you should start your son, I found a Table of Contents for Jacob's Elementary Algebra at http://www.lamppostpublishing.com/jacobs-elementary-algebra.htm#Elementary_Algebra_Text . If this is the Table of Contents for your edition, it appears that you have already done most of Chapters 1, 2, 3, 7, 11, 12, 14, and 15 in Algebra I: A Fresh Approach. You have probably done more than this, but I don't know because I don't have a copy of the book. So, here's what I would suggest you do. Before you spend more money on a test packet, I want you to be sure that you're going to be happy with Algebra I: A Fresh Approach. (You mentioned that "a page of various problems without any context just send him out the window," and, unfortunately, until we get into the higher math classes, that's what most of Algebra is.) Jacob's Algebra was going to do factoring next, so I would suggest that you skip to Chapter 17 in Algebra I: A Fresh Approach. If your son understood Chapter 8 in Jacob's, then he should do fine with this chapter. Also, I try to write my books so that the teacher can assign just the even problems or just the odd problems and still let the student get enough practice. So, to avoid some frustration, you may want to try this if you feel that your son can master and remember the concept with just 10-20 practice problems. Then, if you decide that you're happy with the book, order a solutions manual and then email me and tell me that you really want the test packet. When you get the test packet, have him take all the tests up to Chapter 15. If there are any chapters that he does not do well with, then I would suggest that you go through those chapters with him. Finally, regardless of which book you decide to use, I would encourage you to get your son involved in some math competitions. (Google "homeschool math competitions" and see what you come up with.) This is because of his problem with doing a page of problems with no context. His grades may not show that he is good at math, but, if he can do well in a contest or two (which are mostly word problems and problems that you have to think about), then that would show colleges or anyone else who might be interested that he can do well in math. Sincerely, Christy Walters > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > I'm sorry, I had meant to ask you another question. My son has completed > through Ch. 8 in Jacob's Elementary Algebra. He has struggled with it > (completed Singapore Math through 6B prior to beginning Jacob's) because > so > much of the teaching is through the exercises. I'm wondering where I > should > start him in your text. Do you have any suggestions as to how to > determine > placement at this point? > > He does very well with math concepts but poorly with computations. > Basically he can solve word problems easily, but a page of various > problems > without any context just send him out the window. Here's a part of a conversation with NJKelli (a WTMer) who was contemplating using this curriculum. I forgot that I had my son do this, but remember that it really did help get us over the hump.: One of the things I've found with this son is that he needs a lot of variety in his schooling. So I'm having him do geometry at the same time. He does geometry 3 days per week and algebra 3 days per week. We should have both programs finished easily by the end of the year. The other thing to consider with geometry is that while some kids don't grasp algebra well, they may do fantastic with geometry. this has been the case with my son. He is getting 100%'s on his geometry tests! We aren't using a highly rigorous text (MUS), but it hits the necessary points in a relatively painless way, And this has built his confidence and esteem - so he'll work better with me in algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 whoa....those are expensive. Will the practice tests be good enough? or not? Are you looking at the used books with Like New condition or the price for a never previously owned copy? I think most here buy their Lial used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudGrandma Posted October 11, 2015 Author Share Posted October 11, 2015 I just bought the 9th edition of the Lial's books and the DVD too. I am hoping that it works for us. thank you very much for all of your help and suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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