McCain & Obama Tax Plans analyzed

[Reya]

awwww...wouldn't it be awful if they had to sell one of their half dozen mansions? Poor dears...

 

It's good to take their money because they're richer than you?

 

They're a LOT richer than me (we don't make the top 5%), but I have the belief that they pay taxes disproportionately already. Heck *I* pay taxes disproportionately--more than 40% of every dollar I earn goes to taxes! I'm none too pleased that my hard work subsidizes other people's poor decisions--and yes, that's what it is 99 times out of 100. If Obama's health plan goes through, a CONSERVATIVE estimate is that 60% of my income will end up being eaten by the state. That's obscene. I'm so tired of funding other people's poor choices to support their lifestyles.

 

Want an example? How about food stamps? Food stamps will cover something like $21 per person, gratis, for the lowest levels of income. I fed THREE PEOPLE for a YEAR on the EAST COAST for under $45 a week--no restaurants! Now, I'm feeding three for $60 a week and not breaking a sweat. Why are the poor being given so much money? It's downright extravagent. And the people pulling out the food stamp cards ALWAYS--and I mean ALWAYS--are wearing outfits that cost 3-4 TIMES as much as my family's clothes ever do. So, they're getting my money to spend more money than I do on groceries so that they can have their Tommy Hilfiger-branded clothing? Just about all of them have cable, too. Yeah, the heat might get shut off, but the cable's on, baby! But there's financial assistence for the poor who need their cell phones so badly that they can't spare the change for electricity!

 

I've made it on $400 a month, flat. I was able to save back $50 a month of that, too--it was hard, but the situation was temporary because I chose to MAKE it temporary. I've worked with and lived with people who will never move out of poverty because of the choices they make every single day. And I have precious little sympathy.

 

I'm tired of spending on enormously bloated governments. I'm tired of spending on sports complexes for schools. I'm tired of spending on bloated school administrations. I'm tired of spending on new overpriced textbooks every 4 years. I'm tired of public money being spent on TV and radio programing. I'm tired of public money being spent on the arts. (If I want to donate, I WILL. If I don't, then don't take my money for it!) I'm tired of the pork barreling. I'm tired of so much. The spending spree of the last 2-4 years is just plain insane, and I'm tired of my pathetic return for my buck. I want Social Security DRAMATICALLY scaled back (it is the single most wasteful and inefficient way to provide for anyone's retirement), and I want the government to not get into healthcare--sure, raise the requirements for small businesses to provide healthcare while at the same time providing a path for them to form healthcare cooperatives, and sure, add automatic healthcare extensions to unemployment benefits, but for goodness sakes, I don't want European-level survival rates from major diseases and procedures along with European-level healthcare tax burdens!

[lovemyboys]

40% of this country already pays no taxes. The top 10% pays 70% of the taxes already. The gov't can't keep raising taxes on this group.

 

Socialism doesn't work. Taking from one group to give to another is wrong. It promotes apathy among those who are willing to work hard' date=' but won't if it doesn't earn them anymore than the bum living next door.

 

What most people don't understand about the taxing system is that if the gov't raises taxes on the "rich" and corporations, who do you think is going to end up paying for that in the end? The consumers who have to buy those goods, that's who. Those corporations will raise their prices; sometimes that works, sometimes the corporation goes under - leading to job loss.[/quote']

 

I wanted to reply to your post because you made some very good points. I didn't realize the first part til just recently -- 40% (nearly half) already don't pay taxes! And many of the people in this 40% also get an additional check. Those are some statistics I wasn't aware of.

 

You made some good points, Bev.

[Reya]

Again...MOST of the extremely rich....do NOT work harder and harder...

 

You're kidding, right? Because most CEOs that I've met/know work 60-80 hours a week EVERY SINGLE WEEK. And those are AFTER the start up, which often takes up to 100 hours a week for several years!

 

My DH, in his job, could be pulling in $500k a year within 5 years if he chose to do a start up. We prefer to see one another, though. :-) So he's not a CEO, just another contractor, and he makes a fraction of that.

 

People have this distorted view of the ultra-rich businessman. Even at the $10,000-a-plate dinners, most of the people are STILL WORKING, smoozing, making connections, showing their faces. It's work. I'd hate it. Most of the yacht trips? They're taken to woo potential clients. Bubba and Bob relax more and have more honest-to-goodness fun in their bass boat than most of the wheelers and dealers do. The country club memberships are also a kind of social and business leverage. It's a grueling and exhausting life, and to me, it's utterly repellent. If I join a club (in my case, it'd be a book club or a craft club, not a raquet club!), I want it to be just plain for fun, not because I will be with the right people and have a place to bring certain kinds of "guests."

[lovemyboys]

It's good to take their money because they're richer than you?

 

They're a LOT richer than me (we don't make the top 5%), but I have the belief that they pay taxes disproportionately already. Heck *I* pay taxes disproportionately--more than 40% of every dollar I earn goes to taxes! I'm none too pleased that my hard work subsidizes other people's poor decisions--and yes, that's what it is 99 times out of 100. If Obama's health plan goes through, a CONSERVATIVE estimate is that 60% of my income will end up being eaten by the state. That's obscene. I'm so tired of funding other people's poor choices to support their lifestyles.

 

 

Watch out for the pregnant ladies! :lol:

Reya and OhElizabeth are speaking their minds in no uncertain terms.

You both had some great points to make for all of us "rich" folks :P out here who do pay a nice chunk of change on taxes.

[tibbyl]

Bev, did you receive the GI bill to help with college costs?

[Robin Hood]

 

Why would anyone want to work harder and harder for less and less? Regulations already discourage small businesses from hiring employees. I have been a small business owner. If you have ever owned a small business you know what I am talking about.

 

Bigger government, less incentive to start businesses and create jobs, more citizens dependent on government. This is not the America that our founding fathers envisioned.

 

:iagree: 19 years in business and we are finally out. Small businesses are unpaid tax collectors and don't even get me started on minimum wage increases. Heads of houses get gyped in fast food or many non union groceries and delis businesses because the high schoolers keep getting their wage raises which in reality is just a tax increase.

 

 

This is incorrect. A refund is just that, a refund. You cannot get money back that you did not pay in.

 

Not true. Due to mininimum wages increases throught the years, I had to give up my entire salary in our business to high school kids. We are now low income and we get more in tax returns than we pay out. Before minimum wage increases we paid plenty and got nothing back.

[Soph the vet]

It's good to take their money because they're richer than you?

 

They're a LOT richer than me (we don't make the top 5%), but I have the belief that they pay taxes disproportionately already. Heck *I* pay taxes disproportionately--more than 40% of every dollar I earn goes to taxes! I'm none too pleased that my hard work subsidizes other people's poor decisions--and yes, that's what it is 99 times out of 100. If Obama's health plan goes through, a CONSERVATIVE estimate is that 60% of my income will end up being eaten by the state. That's obscene. I'm so tired of funding other people's poor choices to support their lifestyles.

 

Want an example? How about food stamps? Food stamps will cover something like $21 per person, gratis, for the lowest levels of income. I fed THREE PEOPLE for a YEAR on the EAST COAST for under $45 a week--no restaurants! Now, I'm feeding three for $60 a week and not breaking a sweat. Why are the poor being given so much money? It's downright extravagent. And the people pulling out the food stamp cards ALWAYS--and I mean ALWAYS--are wearing outfits that cost 3-4 TIMES as much as my family's clothes ever do. So, they're getting my money to spend more money than I do on groceries so that they can have their Tommy Hilfiger-branded clothing? Just about all of them have cable, too. Yeah, the heat might get shut off, but the cable's on, baby! But there's financial assistence for the poor who need their cell phones so badly that they can't spare the change for electricity!

 

I've made it on $400 a month, flat. I was able to save back $50 a month of that, too--it was hard, but the situation was temporary because I chose to MAKE it temporary. I've worked with and lived with people who will never move out of poverty because of the choices they make every single day. And I have precious little sympathy.

 

I'm tired of spending on enormously bloated governments. I'm tired of spending on sports complexes for schools. I'm tired of spending on bloated school administrations. I'm tired of spending on new overpriced textbooks every 4 years. I'm tired of public money being spent on TV and radio programing. I'm tired of public money being spent on the arts. (If I want to donate, I WILL. If I don't, then don't take my money for it!) I'm tired of the pork barreling. I'm tired of so much. The spending spree of the last 2-4 years is just plain insane, and I'm tired of my pathetic return for my buck. I want Social Security DRAMATICALLY scaled back (it is the single most wasteful and inefficient way to provide for anyone's retirement), and I want the government to not get into healthcare--sure, raise the requirements for small businesses to provide healthcare while at the same time providing a path for them to form healthcare cooperatives, and sure, add automatic healthcare extensions to unemployment benefits, but for goodness sakes, I don't want European-level survival rates from major diseases and procedures along with European-level healthcare tax burdens!

 

:iagree: Thank you for typing all this so I didn't have to..but you forgot this::rant:.

And as for the comment about citizens of socialist societies thinking it is just hunky-dory(loose paraphrase), I am shocked. Does anyone really believe that Cuban or North Korean citizens can say what they REALLY think? Mongolia was socialist (under the Russians) for decades and I had the privilege of living there short-term. It was pathetic to see the lack of entrepreneurial spirit...it didn't matter how hard you worked or did not work, your pay was the same for your pay grade that month as all the others in your line of work, which wasn't much. The infrastructure was delapidated, the people subdued, and the hopelessness was palpable.

Is this what Americans want?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

:iagree: Thank you for typing all this so I didn't have to..but you forgot this::rant:.

And as for the comment about citizens of socialist societies thinking it is just hunky-dory(loose paraphrase), I am shocked. Does anyone really believe that Cuban or North Korean citizens can say what they REALLY think? Mongolia was socialist (under the Russians) for decades and I had the privilege of living there short-term. It was pathetic to see the lack of entrepreneurial spirit...it didn't matter how hard you worked or did not work, your pay was the same for your pay grade that month as all the others in your line of work, which wasn't much. The infrastructure was delapidated, the people subdued, and the hopelessness was palpable.

Is this what Americans want?

 

Is this what Americans want? Do you mean, is this what voters for Sen. Obama and Sen. Biden want?

 

If it's a general question, well, no. If it's a specific point that this is what we'll get under Obama/Biden, well, I would venture to say again no.

 

What would Alan Greenspan do? (And that's rhetorical, just for fun.)

[Michelle in MO]

Bev, did you receive the GI bill to help with college costs?

 

to clarify the tone of my response, I think you're asking an honest question here. I think this is a valid use of tax money. From an earlier thread (again, my memory is faulty) there was quite a bit of discussion about how few benefits soldiers actually receive. I don't mind our GI's receiving a boost towards their college education when they've had to put their lives on the line. Even for those who have not been actively deployed, I think that the few benefits those in the military receive is not comparable to the sacrifices that they and their families have to make. Just the constant moving that some military families have to go through would do me in!

 

I've personally benefitted from the effects of the GI bill; some of my best college professors were post WWII graduates. Once they finished their tours of duty for the US overseas, they came back, went to school, became professors, and taught the next generation of students. I'm glad that they were able to receive some benefit from these sacrifices. They deserve our kudos and our thanks.

[Soph the vet]

Is this what Americans want? Do you mean, is this what voters for Sen. Obama and Sen. Biden want?

 

If it's a general question, well, no. If it's a specific point that this is what we'll get under Obama/Biden, well, I would venture to say again no.

 

 

 

It is a general question that all of us should ask. I didn't mention any specific candidate;). But if the socialist shoe fits.....

[Reya]

Here's the thing that I can't find a way around. A person making 30K per year spends it all. They spend it on food and rent and gas and clothes. There is nothing left for any unnecessary expenditures. A person making 130K per year may not spend it all. They can put some of it away into savings and 401Ks and buy cars and TVs and DVD players and computers and books and magazines and if a sudden medical bill pops up they don't worry about it too much.

 

If they each pay 10% the person making 30K pays 3,000 and that amount will kill him. The person making 130K pays 13,000 and doesn't miss it. It's all about what they do with the money. So if you tax the purchases and not the income it's going to unfairly burden the poor.

 

After all, rich people don't eat more than poor people do. They just spend a lesser percentage of their income on food.

 

So how is it equitable to not tax those that make more... more?

 

Because it's their money and they made the decisions and sacrifices that led them to earn it?

 

Just because you're richer doesn't make it okay for me to dig up your garden and take home what I want.

 

Your scheme is so over-idealized. It makes me chortle. These poor, poor people, making only $30k a year, who can BARELY get by...and what does the *typical* family in this income bracket have?

 

-Cable. Usually more than basic cable.

-A computer with internet service, usually hi speed.

-A cell phone.

-A land line with user ID.

-A car that's a HECK of a lot newer than our oldest car (a 1995 Mazda Protege, BTW)

-Multiple TVs and many other items of consumer electronics.

-Name-brand clothing and/or licensed clothing, bought new and maybe at a "steal"--hahaha--of 50% off.

-More than $25 per person in the family at the grocery store, plus another $50 a week on eating out.

 

This isn't everyone, but this is the AVERAGE family in that income range. I could take $300 a month off their budgets, EASILY, by simply conforming those aspects of their budgets to my own. We make more than $130k a year now, but we don't have cable or car payments or a land line or multiple TVs or expensive clothing or high grocery or restaurant bills. (They spend it on clothes? Yeah. The last three T-shirts I bough cost me $1.35, including tax, at a department store. The last pair of pants cost me $.99 at another department store--originally $46.00. The last sweater? $5. But I bought a bunch for $2.99 before that. And I've been positively extravagant lately after realizing that a lot of my wardrobe was old enough to be in high school! The average American woman has something like 3 times the number of shoes and 3-5 times the articles of clothing that I own.)

 

You think the reason most people who are "poor" are poor because they have a low income. The truth is that most people who are "poor" have a low income because they "think poor." They choose poor. The same kinds of decisions that make them buy a necklace when they have credit card debt make them stay (or jump around in) in low-income, dead-end jobs and to choose not to better themselves.

[Reya]

In one of the debates, Mike Huckabee actually insisted that the Fair Tax would be revenue neutral (i.e. it would bring in just as much money as the current tax system) AND it would mean that EVERYONE would pay less in taxes. I'm no mathematician, but....

 

That's because a HUGE amount of money isn't reported right now. The underground economy is enormous. Hair dressers and servers take tips in cash they don't report. People do work for cash they don't report. The IRS is also phenomenally expensive and inefficient compared to a sales tax. It's a LOT easier to regulate sales than it is incomes, and if you bought anything from a store, then you couldn't dodge the tax no matter how you got the money in the first place.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

You think the reason most people who are "poor" are poor because they have a low income. The truth is that most people who are "poor" have a low income because they "think poor." They choose poor. The same kinds of decisions that make them buy a necklace when they have credit card debt make them stay (or jump around in) in low-income, dead-end jobs and to choose not to better themselves.

 

It's amazing how very differently I see this.

 

And I think it's very cool that your family chose "not poor." That would have been my choice for my childhood, as well. And, I imagine, my mother and father for theirs.

[Reya]

Then our society would be more balanced. And I don't know if I agree that it's penalizing the successful... for a couple of reasons...a) I don't actually consider inherited fortune a matter of success.... and b) I think the folks that can afford to... have an obligation to society to pay more than those who cannot. But, then, I'm on the same point in the socio-economic-political scale as Ghandi.:lol:

 

Balanced. So equality of outcome is a goal for you? I find this abhorrent. Want to know what I'd do? Stop working. Why would I bust my backside every day and keep almost none of it?

 

Then, of course, there's the black market....

[Reya]

Ok... for the sake of the discussion let's examine the last few years. We've had a war (no comments about the war itself, please) going on that has had to be paid for. During WWII there were taxes and war bonds and such so that the population knew that there was a cost associated with such an undertaking. This war has been invisible as far as cost goes. If you were to ask me the only way I know there's a cost at all is that I've been paying attention to the news and I know what congress has been fighting over allotting...

 

You're making mistaken assumptions about where all the money's going. Hint: It ain't the war that's killing us!

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122100742173517529.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks

[Reya]

It's amazing how very differently I see this.

 

And I think it's very cool that your family chose "not poor." That would have been my choice for my childhood, as well. And, I imagine, my mother and father for theirs.

 

Would have been nice for mine, too, but it didn't work out that way until I was 11 or so.

 

I got a mattress one year for Christmas because mine disintegrated (over 30 years old), and it was either a mattress or a toy! One of my earliest memories was of my mother sobbing because she didn't know how to find the money for the next month of my father's tuition and our rent.

 

I paid $15k of my own college and got another $15k in scholarships. That more than covered an average 4-year college education at the time. I chose for me.

 

Your mother and father had a time to choose--after they left home. They made the wrong decisions, and you suffered the consequences. I had consequences of my own in my early childhood, and I made the determination that my kids would NOT go through that.

 

My grandfather lived for a year in a neighbor's chicken coop, his family was so poor. His mother had a 3rd grade education because her own mother needed her home to watch the kids she chose to pop out every 18 months for 18 years. (Unsurprisingly, my great-grandmother was a vociferous proponent of birth control, and she practiced what she preached.) My other grandfather worked two jobs to support his mother and aunt as well as his own family. Another great-grandfather ran away from home at 13 and put himself not only through high school but college, earning a master's degree--and this was around 1900. All of them--every single one--ended up solidly middle class by middle age. Despite setbacks, despite illness, despite the fact that often enough, it was too late to help their kids--they made it.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Your mother and father had a time to choose--after they left home. They made the wrong decisions, and you suffered the consequences.

 

 

Not really. They did the absolute best they could with what realities they had been given. They managed the little bit of money they had as best they knew how. And they worked very, very hard and sacrificed and scrimped and made do. (And tithed, even.)

 

I wouldn't say I suffered, exactly. I would say that they did, as kids, but I would never say that *I* did. I would certainly have enjoyed a middle class life, but many people were much worse off than we. And for some of those, it was a choice. For some, it's just a series of insurmountable circumstances.

[Beth in SW WA]

The truth is that most people who are "poor" have a low income because they "think poor." They choose poor.

 

Reya, You are so right on the money here (no pun intended).

 

My roommate in college was there on financial aid -- but could afford new cd's, ski trips to Mt. Baker on the weekends, and other "luxuries" that I couldn't afford -- and I was paying for my college w/o any aid.

 

And how about the ladies I see at our local grocery store who buy organic milk and Tillamook cheese w/ their WIC coupons? (while I am buying the store brand cheese)

 

As a small business owner who falls in the category of "rich" -- I refuse to subsidize and perpetuate this fallacy that all poor people are there because of bad luck. Its choice.

 

I've seen poor -- on the streets of China where legless, toothless beggars are sitting w/ a bowl. No safety net.

 

The people in our country who spend their welfare checks on cable tv and cell phones and cigarettes are NOT poor. They think poor. Its a cycle generations of poor choose to stay in -- because they don't have to work, nor want to when the govt can support their lifestyle.

 

I hate paying excessive amounts of our hard-earned money, and I mean HARD-earned money to the govt. My husband has paid his dues, and still does, to give us this life. We give -- and give generously to our church and charitable organizations w/o batting an eye. We are blessed -- and want to BE a blessing. But we don't want to rob people of the blessing of work.

 

Obama's social restructuring via wealth distribution is something I am vehemently opposed to.

 

McCain-Palin '08

[Reya]

I quoted this more for the sentiment than for the exact details. I recently watched the movie Pursuit of Happyness and spent some time reading about Chris Gardner's life. Here is a man who went through hell and eventually became extremely wealthy. He's the type of success story that people love to throw around as proof that our society is working so well. But what I want to ask is, is it really ok that people have to go through that kind of hell? We live in the richest country on earth, is it right that we have people going homeless while trying to earn an education? And what about the people who go through hell and never come out, no matter how hard they try?

 

The vast majority of people who are poor make decisions every single day that keep them poor. Most of the poor DON'T go through hell. They more typically go through bankruptcy after they've maxed out all their credit cards on poorly chosen purchases.

 

Education is one part of the key. People blindly accept what they know as the norm. If they're shown different options, they'll sometimes choose them.

 

But as much as you need education, you can't force a person to internalize a lesson. The poor families I knew from my old neighborhood--and some of them had high incomes than we did!--were profoundly frustrating for that reason. It was the same with my DH's poor friends. So much of poverty is between the ears, consisting of a combination of entitlement, laziness or undependability, determined ignorance, an unwillingness to try change, and/or a lack of ambition. (This is the permanently poor, not the transitional poor. Transitional "poor" are just that--transitional!) Many people, you can educate until the cows come home and they just won't choose a better life.

 

It's like people who live in filth. There is NO ONE who is moderately MR or smarter who can't keep a house reasonably clean and tidy, but people will invent thousands of excuses as to why they can't or don't have time because the truth is, the filth doesn't bother this near as much as making change. It isn't in their priorities. But those who are poor, unlike those who choose to live in filth and/or chaos, expect us to do something about it. It's as if the worst housekeeper in the neighborhood was deemed to deserve maid service.

[Reya]

Not really. They did the absolute best they could with what realities they had been given. They managed the little bit of money they had as best they knew how. And they worked very, very hard and sacrificed and scrimped and made do. (And tithed, even.)

 

I wouldn't say I suffered, exactly. I would say that they did, as kids, but I would never say that *I* did. I would certainly have enjoyed a middle class life, but many people were much worse off than we. And for some of those, it was a choice. For some, it's just a series of insurmountable circumstances.

 

Then for them, education WOULD have helped, because I guarantee that there WERE opportunities out there for any healthy person if they'd grasped them. (And no, I don't begrudge those on SS disability a cent of it.)

 

Those who work two jobs as a dish boy, for instance, make we want to scream, "You're doing manual labor for pennies! Why don't you roof houses, instead? You'd make more than twice as much, work fewer hours in conditions about equal to what you are now, and have lots more leisure time! Why are you scrubbing dishes 80 hours a week???" Those who are hotel maids would make twice as much with a corporate cleaning contracting service. If they moved to a company that specializes in particularly gruesome cleanups (yes, crime scenes for some serious money, but there's lots of broken pipes, fire damage, etc., companies out there, too, for the more delicate), she could move from bringing in $8k a year to bringing in a cool $35k a year, as a junior worker, with only 40-hour weeks. If she moved up to team supervisor, she could be making $50k a year--and all this with the skill-set of a maid. And these are non-English speakers I'm talking about here--who face difficulties much higher than most people!

 

There's nothing trapping a person in a particular job. Yes, it takes initiative to find different work, and yes, it takes persistence and patience and networking. But it's possible. I've started up two businesses from scratch and am about to start my third, in addition to being regularly self-employed as a writer. Every one of them has turned a profit within 2 months. This one will take longer because I made a big investment in some renovation costs, but it will succeed, too--because I know how to make it work, and I've taken the time to develop a specialized skill set (no, that can't be gotten in college).

 

Now, some people also choose to be poor in pursuit of a dream. This was the case of my childhood--my dad's ideal profession was not one that makes much money. (It didn't work out that way--not only are there terrible wages, but there are very, very few job openings, too!) He eventually figured out that he could do something that he liked well enough that paid so well that he'd have tons of leisure time and money to spend on the dream, instead! :-P But at least he was going into it with his eyes open--and NOT his hand!

[mom2att]

So please stop arguing about cutting taxes and raising taxes... there is no argument really. The only responsible thing to do is raise them and to do it now... before we're in it so deep we can't get out any longer and the dollar becomes worthless.

 

Oh, I don't know--how about the "responsible" idea of requiring our government to cut spending and use wisely the money that is already taken from the taxpayer? If I had a relative who continued to spend money irresponsibly I wouldn't just throw more money his way knowing he was going to continue with the same reckless spending. Similarly, I'd like "Uncle Sam" to reform HIS spending habits rather than requiring more of my money.

 

Bridge to nowhere, anyone???

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Then for them, education WOULD have helped, because I guarantee that there WERE opportunities out there for any healthy person if they'd grasped them.

--------

 

There's nothing trapping a person in a particular job.

 

From your perspective and understanding, I'm certain that this is true. :)

 

 

 

You've done very well, and that is wonderful!

[Reya]

:iagree: Thank you for typing all this so I didn't have to..but you forgot this::rant:.

And as for the comment about citizens of socialist societies thinking it is just hunky-dory(loose paraphrase), I am shocked. Does anyone really believe that Cuban or North Korean citizens can say what they REALLY think? Mongolia was socialist (under the Russians) for decades and I had the privilege of living there short-term. It was pathetic to see the lack of entrepreneurial spirit...it didn't matter how hard you worked or did not work, your pay was the same for your pay grade that month as all the others in your line of work, which wasn't much. The infrastructure was delapidated, the people subdued, and the hopelessness was palpable.

Is this what Americans want?

 

My DH is from China! You have to understand understand, too, the incredible levels of indoctrination and fear that these people live under. Everything that they see and hear is controlled. They are told from birth what the right things to think and say are. It's better to see how they really live versus how we really live rather than to hear what they recite for public consumption--or are even indoctrinated to believe.

 

I don't want to live like Europeans, either. After WWII, the average GI came home to a 750 sqft house. This was the same as the average size of a European house. The average housing size hasn't changed in Europe, but it sure has here! You might say pious things about "waste" and "extravagance" of Americans, but you're free to pack your family into a tiny house and put your money where your mouth is. I'll take my 2600 sqft-plus-basement house and KEEP it--and dream about the 4,000 sqft house I gave up in New Mexico to move here! (FWIW, we got that one for pennies on the dollar because it was run down, I renovated it, and we sold it for a profit. This one cost 2.5 times as much, unfortunately! It would have been nearly 4 times as much if the kitchen and bathrooms hadn't been so dismal.)

 

Did you know that the average French citizen believes that equality of healthcare in more important than quality? So if everyone who gets cancer dies, that's better than if 30% of poor people die and 20% of rich people die. I'd take the rich people subsidizing cancer research for the rest of the regular folks, thankyouverymuch.

[Reya]

From your perspective and understanding, I'm certain that this is true. :)

 

 

 

You've done very well, and that is wonderful!

 

Giving them a perspective from which they can be successful--that's the education end of things, 'cuz I don't mean anything as narrow as "college" by "education"--is one thing I'm a big advocate of. For those who are slaving and don't need to be--those who feel trapped and shouldn't be--education in the broadest sense can save them. You're right, it IS about perspective for some people. And those should be given the broadest perspective possible!

 

I'm not painting everyone with the same brush, believe it or not. :-) I'm all for expanding understanding. I think understanding is a greater gift than direct financial assistance because it can get you so much farther. Those that are closed to understanding won't be helped by money, either, though. It'd just disappear where all their other money had gone.

[Reya]

Thank you. My husband started a business, and we received the Earned Income Tax Credit for a few years. We did not spend it on a TV. We spent it covering our social security and self employment tax; the remainder was spent on food.

 

Ah, but would you have needed the EIC if you hadn't had the SS and self-employment to pay?

 

I get sick every time I see what portion of my income is disappearing to taxes without even thinking about property and sales tax....

[Reya]

I just wanna say I'm SICK TO DEATH of Obama saying anyone making over a certain amount (200 or 250 gr, whatever his latest number is) can "afford" to pay more in taxes. It DOES affect people here, and lots of us!! They're called small business owners. My take home pay looks like no more than yours, meaning I CAN'T afford to pay more taxes, but on paper, as S-corp owners, we pay taxes for everything the business does. And if you knew how screwey the tax laws are, you'd know it's possible to pay taxes and lose money, all the in the same year too!!

 

 

I'm going to an S-corp for 2009. I've been in an LLC before, but I'm so sick of SO much of my money going for SS/employment tax that I'm setting up a SEP-IRA, so I've got to be an S-corp to do it. At least that's a little more that I'll be able to keep--until retirement, at least.

 

Yes, color me mad and pregnant, too! :-P

 

I was REALLY furious when I calculated that NO ONE who works fulltime for 30 years at ANY pay rate doesn't lose money from SS versus any sane investment. And no, disability and survivor do NOT make up the difference. That's crazy. Simply crazy. If you want it done wrong, go to the government...

[TXMomof4]

I have this printed and hanging on my wall. I got it from my grandfather.

 

I do not choose to be a common man.

It is my right to be uncommon, if I can.

I do not wish to be a kept citizen,

humbled and dulled by having the State look after me.

I want to take calculated risks, to dream and to build, to fail and succeed.

I refuse to barter incentive for a dole

I prefer the challenges of a life to the guaranteed existence,

the thrill of fulfillment to the state of Utopia.

I will not trade freedom for beneficence,

nor my dignity for a handout.

I will never cower before any master nor bend to any threat.

It is my heritage to stand erect,

proud and unafraid,

to think and act for myself,

to enjoy the benefits of my creations,

and to suffer the consequences of my failures.

This, with God's help, I have done.

All this is what it means to be free.

[Kari C in SC]

Also, there are many very hard working single moms who put their earned income credit to extremely good use.

 

:iagree:

 

Great post!

[Mom to Aly]

I'm so stunned by this thread! I'm stunned by how nasty some of these comments have gotten, and I'm scared to write what I'm about to--please realize it is taking a good amount of courage after everything written here, & if you have any unkind remarks, please keep them to yourselves.

 

If you know me at all from these boards, you probably know my story. My dad was a self made man, a brilliant scientist from India, brought to this country on the request of Einstein to work with him, then he became the head of NYU's physics doctorate program, & worked at NASA. Because of childhood probs, didn't spend money, but, before I was in high school, he bought a 9 bedroom, 6,000 sq ft house in Westchester County, and our life changed. I suddenly had the best of everything. But, we had a falling out about college, & I had to support myself throughout. I had academic scholarships, paid my own way, went to NYU, worked for the democratic party, then on Wall St, have 2 BA's, 2 MA's, part of my phd. I was married, my husband & I had our own business for 7 years. I know all about running a small business, the ups and downs--we almost went bankrupt 1 very bad year, then had a year that was amazing. After our daughter was born, we decided we didn't want to work the 80-90 hours min. we were working, & sold it.

 

Throughout college & my adult life, I had always done well. I volunteered at homeless shelters, animal shelters, with PETA, at homes for the elderly, & with breast cancer organizations, starting in middle school on. I always donated a portion of my salary to charity. I did well, never had to worry about money.

 

Everything changed, completely, for me about 5 years ago. The day after Hurricane Isabel, while our electricity was out and we had 13" of water sitting in our first floor, my husband of 16 years left my 4 yo dd and I to go check on his girlfriend. That is how I found out my marriage was over. I, of course, had had no idea.

 

To say the least, I was completely devastated. It took a few months to get him to leave (he wanted to keep the house); during that time, I found that he had spent the previous 2 years slowly emptying our bank accounts of every penny we had ever had, & running up more than $80,000 in debt, mostly in my name. We had remortgaged our house to build a screened in room. He, instead, used the money to buy a new car. My car was 9 years old, & died soon after he left.

 

When we first walked into divorce court, him, with his lawyer, me, by myself, since I couldn't afford a lawyer, & presented ourselves before the judge, the first thing she said after looking at the papers was, "Homeschooling? Is that even legal?". I knew right then that I was dead. HSing was something I had committed to a long time before, but it was even more important to me then. My xh had gotten horribly emotionally & verbally abusive to me in front of my daughter, & to her, in the last year or so, & she was a complete wreck. She could not bear for me to not be with her--she couldn't even go to the bathroom by herself. I knew that if I tried to send her to school, she would have serious problems; the therapist she had started seeing agreed.

 

In the end, the only way my husband would agree not to fight me on homeschooling was if took no spousal support. I knew it wasn't fair, but I have always known I did what was best for her; he did what was best for him. He also told me his boss had said he would give him cash raises for as long as he wanted, &had done so for the previous two years (since he had started seeing the "other woman") Supposedly, my xh has not had a raise in 7 years. So, after 16 years of marriage, I get the minimum child support allowed by law, nothing else. But, after much trauma &abuse, he is not even allowed to talk to my dd on the phone, which has helped her recover a good bit.

 

I have health probs. I had allergies and asthma, as does my dd. When my xh &I were still married (our divorce has only been final for 2 & 1/2 years) our co-pays were $480 a month. I was teaching online, then I ruptured two discs in my back & couldn't work (my comp is 9 years old, very big, can't go in my room). I couldn't afford internet, and had to turn that off. I had to apply for food stamps & medicaid--& what a blessing!!! It was right before my divorce was final, and my ins was going to run out--I couldn't figure out what I was going to do, because just my maintenance meds for my asthma and allergies and for my daughter's were more than $3,000 a month without ins!

 

So you know, when my xh left, I cut out everything. The first to go was cable, then cell phone. We have one tv that is now 18 years old, and we keep it for dvds from the library, when we can get a ride there (I don't have a car since mine died). I don't have caller id, just a $5 phone from kmart that sometimes works, but goes out sometimes. My clothes are all more than 5 years old, except for 3 pairs of shorts my sister bought me at Goodwill this summer. I've lost 68 pounds and still can't afford to buy clothes that fits. I take my dd's old clothes and toys, and sell them at stores that resell kids' clothes so that I buy there, and people give her hand me downs. My 6 year old shoes are finally totally falling apart, and I don't know what I'm going to do, because I wear a size 11, and can't find any at Goodwill. My eyeglasses are 9 years old, and I have krazy glued them everywhere. When something we have breaks, it stays broken, we don't replace it. We have food stamps, and when they are gone, we can't buy anything else--we cook absolutely everything from scratch, buy nothing prepared, we never eat out, not even fast food, unless someone invites us, and even that we don't do often, I don't like to when we can't reciprocate. I can't even take advantage of things like food pantries or the Christmas programs that give away gifts for kids, because I can't get to them!

 

Also, if you are writing a six figure check for personal taxes--you are making a good amount of money! Remember, I've owned my own business, I know! If you are talking about payroll taxes, etc., fine, but personal taxes, no way!

 

And those who are making more than $100,000, or more than $80,000, or whatever--you have NO IDEA what it is like not to be able to pay your bills, or buy food, or anything like that. I have thought about putting my daughter in school, although it would kill me &her. But I now have a lung disease, high cholesterol, diabetes, & take meds for migraines, my co-pays for my both of us with a normal job would be $730+ a month! I would lose part of my child support, food stamps, medicaid, would have to have a car (no public transport here), plus child care for my dd after school, there is no way I could afford it, even working full time! Not even close! &, technically, I haven't worked in 16 years, since my xh took a salary at our business, not me. I have the house, that still hasn't been repaired from hurricane damage that wiped out our first floor because my xh took the ins money, but I kept it because the mort was cheaper than a studio apt. I pray everyday that something major doesn't malfunction because I cannot repair it. I can't sell it because my health is not good enough to allow me to fix it up. I am stuck, for now, at least.

 

As for the "fair tax", if you look at factcheck.org, it says there that it doesn't work, not the way you think! It states that what Huckabee is talking about is not a 23% tax, but 30%! And it isn't fair! It taxes credit card debt! And mortgage debt! So you get taxed twice--on what you buy plus debt!! How is that not fair to the people who have less? & if you are going to give a "prebate" to the "poor", how is that not still "taking from the rich" or others? The ones who really save here are the rich.

 

A straight percentage doesn't work--& saying it isn't fair that those who have more give more is ridiculous. If you don't give the poor a hand, how will they ever get any better? You talk about the ones you see with this or that--those are the exceptions. Besides, you have no right to pass judgement--it is so unfair to generalize like that.

 

As for doing away with social security--these people paid into it their ENTIRE LIVES!! What do you think we should do with them?

 

And you say people like Obama cost us so much? In 1992, Clinton inherited a federal deficit of $290.3 billion; by the time he left, he had created an excess of $236.2 billion (note: that is an increase of $526.5 billion!!). Since then, we have plummeted, until, economists agree, by 2009, we will have a deficit of $490 billion!! Not a decrease of $490 billion, for a deficit of $490 billion!! That makes a total decrease of $1,016.5 billion!! (please check this link on factcheck.org for figures--the $490 billion is the latest prediction)http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/during_the_clinton_administration_was_the_federal.html) That is with a republican in office!! A republican who has cut programs for the poor, for the disabled, who has given tax cuts to large corporations, not to small companies--and, by the way, and S corp is not necessarily a tiny company--you can have up to 100 shareholders, no limit to employees, from what I remember, and no limit to income!

 

So, before calling Obama, or me, foul names, please read the sources you are quoting a bit more carefully, go, not to people who are supporting these tax laws, by to unbiased sources, and read about them, as I have. & try not to judge others by a few you have seen--seeing a few people who abuse a system doesn't mean everyone does. I see plenty of people who live like me, month to month, barely holding on. The only reason I have internet is because my sister pays for it, because I was getting truly depressed, being alone all the time, no way to get out. & I am so grateful for it, because I can get on this board... & annoy so many here...;)

[Beth in SW WA]

\--seeing a few people who abuse a system doesn't mean everyone does.

 

You have an amazing story-- and you are a survivor! You are caught in the safety net of govt assistance and you are not abusing the program. That is wonderful!

 

I would love to send you a pair of shoes for your daughter! Please PM me w/ your address :)

[tibbyl]

Why is there little to no outrage expressed here towards welfare entitlements to businesses? Because it is less visible?

[Vida Winter]

Why is there little to no outrage expressed here towards welfare entitlements to businesses? Because it is less visible?

 

I think I know what you're getting at but can you be more specific? I'm also not sure I would call them "welfare entitlements"...

[Reya]

If you know me at all from these boards, you probably know my story.

 

No one's calling anyone names. Your story, though, illustrates my point.

 

I HAVE been poor. I've mentioned before that I made $400 a MONTH for a while. Yes, a MONTH. You think I have no idea? Try again. I've been there. Now I'm out. I ain't going back. I've got three different skill sets that I've developed that I can hire out for at least $60/hr. None of them require a degree, btw. And you have four!

 

Your situation is EXACTLY why I call on ALL women (and men!) to make sure that they remain employABLE no matter what their current employment status is and to keep abreast of their family finances. There was a discussion about being a "keeper of your home" some time ago, and this was one of the possibilities that was PRECISELY why I believe SO strongly that no woman should abdicate her status as a potential wage-earner and her hand in the family's finances. It's a horrible situation--and it's one you chose every day that you did not keep track of your family's finances and did not draw an official salary.

 

My DH does something similar--that is, he won't stay on top of our finances. I tell him that I could have a South Beach condo for all he knows, but he says he trusts me. The truth is, he can't be bothered, but it's almost criminally irresponsible. I've given up shoving financial status info under his nose, but seriously, I could be siphoning away hundreds a month, and he'd have no clue. I try scrupulously not to take advantage of this, but sometimes a little voice whispers how nice it would be to make a purchase that DH would never approve of because he'd never, ever know....

 

You made a similar choice--with a spouse who WAS horrible and WANTED to hide things, but nevertheless, it was the same choice. Then, as your daughter was being horribly traumatized, as you describe, you CHOSE TO STAY. Now, here, I may be seem to be getting a little mean, but my DH's mother made a similar choice (though he was being directly physically abused), and this makes me go quite cold. You made a choice here, every day.

 

And then the divorce came. You said it was a total surprise--but he'd been abusing you for a year and had spent the money for a remodel on a car? Still, you chose to not find an aggressive, take-them-to-the-cleaners attorney who would only charge you based on what he got. You chose to be intimidated and to fold to you XH's pressure and manipulation. You made a choice to sacrifice child support to avoid the possibility that you might not be able to homeschool and because you chose not to find a lawyer who would tear your XH a new one.

 

Then you chose to not seek traditional fulltime employment so that you could homeschool during regular school hours. You believed you had a choice to make between homeschooling and work. Even if that was the dilemma, is it is the duty of others to subsidize your choice to homeschool? Being financially supported such that one can homeschool isn't a right. You weren't willing to leave your DH when he was damaging your daughter in the first place, but you would forgo employment and all its benefits to homeschool due to the mere possibility that public school would cause additional damage...?

 

But this is a false dilemma. I ALWAYS have worked fulltime while homeschooling. You could have gotten a traditional job and homeschooled in the evening and on weekends. I know single moms who do that. Some also do some wacky split-responsibility things with other homeschoolers. It gets healthcare for them and their kids, and they still homeschool.

 

So you chose, eyes wide open, not to pursue traditional employment that might have given you healthcare and disability. Then you worked...how many hours a day?...online with a job with no benefits. With your background, BTW, you would have been a shoe-in for a tax-time job at H&R Block--VERY non-traditional hours, and they pay quite decently! Also, online personal assistants can make a cool $40k or more a year. Another choice you could have made for income but didn't. Then you got hurt, and you had no safety net. Bad luck, yes, but the consequences could have been avoided.

 

Still, you could have worked. You say the computer was too big? You could get an elderly laptop from Freecycle. You could have asked people in your local congregation for one. You could have contacted places that get donations telling them why you need one. Failing all that, you could have gotten your ancient, heavy computer set up next to your bed and propped up at an angle at which the screen is visible and that you could work the keyboard and mouse. (Being injured, you'd need help for this.) And you could have continued to work from there. If it was important enough to you, you could have made it work. You are online now--you can tutor again, then.

 

You can continue to come up with a thousand reasons why you can't change your life and you can continue to make defacto choices while trying to avoid decision-making. I've met soooo many people who do. Stuff happens--bad stuff. And they say "I can't change it--this is my only choice--this is how it has to be." And they never, ever escape.

 

I've also seen, side-by-side, other people dealt equally devastating blows who take charge of their lives and work for change and get the heck out of their predicament.

 

You had warning signs that things were going VERY bad, but you didn't act. You let events catch you up. You chose helplessness in the face of what you describe as horrible verbal and emotional abuse. You chose to roll over for his lawyer. You chose not to fight for a better life for yourself and your daughter with the hard road of fulltime, outside-the-home employment and chose work for an online tutoring company instead and forgo benefits. Then you got hurt and you chose to not work at all. These were the choices that were the easiest, but I would argue vehemently that they weren't the only ones.

 

Yours IS a sad story. You've had a lot of things in your life that have really stunk. I'm not going to deny it. But to say that your current position was unavoidable when you had so many opportunities to turn aside this series of events just isn't true. If you continue to make the choices of "I-don't-have-a-choice", you will NEVER escape--you'll be exactly like those other poor people I found so frustrating in my neighborhood growing up, even if you are more careful with your money. You have 2 BAs and 2 MAs, and you have no choices? You have a background a dozen times better than many I have seen get up and dust themselves off from situations as bad or worse than your own.

 

As long as you are looking for someone outside to make it all better, to make the easy choice appear before you, it won't BE better. You have to tell yourself, "If it is to me, then it is up to me." That means getting better--getting your conditions under control. (You probably think I don't know what I'm talking about. But I've been so sick that I literally slept 21 hours a day for two weeks and 18 hours a day for the next five, just to get away from the pain. Over six months, I went from looking five years younger than my chronological age to several years older because of the lines the pain etched in my face. I had to--with no energy reserves, no mental reserves, no physical reserves--make the decision that I WOULD take whatever steps I could to slowly and painfully get my health back so that I could be a functional member of society again. And I was more terrified that I couldn't do this than I was of anything in my life. I found a support forum for chronic illness and found so many who had centered their lives around illness rather than around health, though, that I knew I could NOT be them and I HAD to change. I have allergies, too--many off-the-charts severe--but that's a joke compared to this. My exercise-induced anaphylaxis is also a joke. Now, I made it, over a process of six years. I was just rejoicing with my DH that a SMALL bottle of Ibuprofen expired without me using it all--when I used to buy 500-pill bottles of aspirin once every 6 months. I would never take narcotics--too addictive.) Then it means getting a job. Get a suit from a charity that gives the poor businesswear for interviews. Then land a job. It might not be a job equal to your education, but after so long out of the workforce, you won't be able to be too picky. Use that job to find a better job. Then get out of the house and into one with only YOUR name on the title. You can almost certainly do each of these things, even at this late date, but only if you MAKE THE CHOICE, not just once but every day, that these things MUST happen in your life and you must make them happen.

 

Public assistance isn't fixing things for you. It's putting a bandaid on a gunshot. Only you can heal the wound itself. But if you're like most of the people I've met with similar stories, you will tell me that I don't understand, that I am cruel and unsympathetic, that you really did have no choice ever about anything, and for every suggestion of progress, you will throw up a dozen roadblocks about why effecting any kind of change is impossible. (It is EXCATLY the same response with people who let their houses get completely out of control with dirt and filth, BTW.) I never will understand the mentality that embraces failure as inevitable. But changing that is the only thing that can save you. No one but you can fix you.

[Reya]

I think I know what you're getting at but can you be more specific? I'm also not sure I would call them "welfare entitlements"...

 

Business incentives are generally made at the city and county level. They are often beyond stupid. They should be removed from American business because really, they make politicians look good and often don't pay back anywhere near what they should. And they usually go to the biggest and richest businesses, not ones that need it. :-P But again, they tend to be local, so they have little to do with national politics.

[Soph the vet]

You have an amazing story-- and you are a survivor! You are caught in the safety net of govt assistance and you are not abusing the program. That is wonderful!

 

I would love to send you a pair of shoes for your daughter! Please PM me w/ your address :)

Now this is an example of loving one's neighbor. That is our job, not the government's. Way to go, Beth.

[Bev in B'ville]

Bev, did you receive the GI bill to help with college costs?

 

It's THE reason I joined the military (again, all about choices people). That's how I did it. Do I feel bad that my father's taxes that he paid to the government benefit me when they couldn't afford to send me to college? No way. For the very little amount of pay an enlisted person earns, free college is one of the better benefits we earn (and I do mean earn, talk to me again when you've been shot at for defending our country).

 

Let me tell you a little about my dh.

 

He and I both grew up poor. If silver spoon is the equivalent of rich, then he and I both had no silverware whatsoever, we were eating with our hands.

 

His mother had him babysitting his two younger siblings overnight when he was just six years old so she could work her night job. They were on welfare a lot. She made education a priority in her children's lives (yes, public school). My husband graduated valedictorian from his high school and received a scholarship to Georgia Tech.

 

I'm sick to death of people saying "so and so didn't have the same opportunities to succeed as someone else." That's simply not true, just an excuse to perpetuate their existence. EVERYONE has choices to make. I drill this into my dc every day. Good choices = good outcomes; Bad choices = bad outcomes. I would venture to guess that most people on this board feel similarly. It's why a lot of us homeschool; to give our children a better education than the public (or even private) schools can offer. Why are we doing this? So we can tell them when they graduate from high school that okay, now you can apply for welfare, EIC, and food stamps and you won't have to work a day in your life? No, we do this so they will go to college and/or get a good job that makes them happy, productive citizens.

 

I'm sick of people calling people who make money "fortunate"; that implies luck when, quite frankly, luck had nothing whatsoever to do with it. It came down to simply making good choices in our lives and working hard, very hard. Have all of my decisions been good? No, I'd be lying if I said otherwise. However, instead of letting one bad choice lead to another I self-corrected my actions. It's all about choices, people!

[Mom to Aly]

No one's calling anyone names. Your story, though, illustrates my point.

 

Hmmm... You may say no one is calling me names, but you have come as close as you can without actually doing it--actually, I think you did.

 

I have to answer a couple of points here--yes, my dh had been emotionally and verbally abusive for about a year--he had been being treated for manic depression, and I felt it was my duty to stand by him. He travelled all the time, at least two weeks out of the month, and I didn't find out until much later, he was abusing the medication, drinking with it, etc, but at the time I thought he was quite ill and it was my obligation to stand by him, although I tried to protect my daughter from as much of it as I could. He didn't become really abusive towards her until after I'd found out he was cheating; then it was to convince her she should go to school--telling her things like homeschoolers were "freaks", everyone would think she was a freak, I was trying to mess her up--he was going to get custody because I wanted to hs and it was illegal, and he was going to take her back to France, where he was from, and she'd never see me again, etc.

 

As for the finances, I had completely taken care of everything until I became pregnant. I was in bed from the 6th week on--incompetent cervix plus other complications. Our first child had died, this was our second, and my pregnancy was beyond high risk, I could have no stress, so I handed EVERYTHING over to my xh. Afterwards, he wanted me to concentrate on our dd, be a stay at home mom, and so did I. Maybe it was naive, but, after all that time together, I let him do it. Would I ever do that again? No. I've learned my lesson. Now I tell women, no matter what, don't ever do it. And I did watch our checking account. Just not others, which I realize was foolish. I was too in love with my daughter to care about anything else.

 

As for the rest: My husband showed such a small salary, no lawyer would touch the case, because they weren't sure of getting enough money from him to cover bills (remember, his boss paid him under the table?). I tried everything. And, as I said before, you don't really know or understand my reasons for deciding to homeschool--I know that putting my daughter in school would have been a great sacrifice to her emotional well being--and I come from a family with tremendous mental illness--my twin brother is schizophrenic, chronic, had his first psychotic breakdown when we were 15 and has been disabled ever since, one of my sisters is bi polar, and my daughter, at 5, was scratching herself until she bled, which they say is an early form of "cutting". At 5 she was put on prozac. So maybe you would have put her in school--NOT ME!!! I don't care if I would have had to beg, borrow or whatever, there is nothing I wouldn't have done for her! I am no stranger to hard work, as I have stated--I had 2 BA's & 2 MA's by the time I was 24 & I had worked full time, 4 years of that on Wall St!! I had full academic scholarships and fellowships for every single one of my degrees, and one of my MA's is from La Sorbonne in Paris!

 

And, just as you judged others, you are judging me, and, again, you don't know the situation--my back is such that if I have surgery, I risk being paralized, and not a tiny risk--no thank you. In the meantime, there are days when I can't sit for more than half an hour at a time, days when I am in bed most of the day. I am losing weight and it is getting better, but not good enough yet, may never be, but, again, I have all the meds, and the cost--prohibitive at this time. Oh, and saying I could have worked when I ruptured those discs--you apparently don't know anyone who has--you can't sit up on an elbow or anything, and you can't reach out with your arms--that is the worst thing for you--I can't reach above my head now on my right side at all, or reach out for something on that side, may never be able to because of the damage done on that side.

 

When you are single, you can do anything. My xh and I had a period, nearly a year, where we didn't work. I was taking the last of my phd coursework, he was finishing his MA, and we had taken the year off. We were living off savings, watching them go down really fast, and we could have applied for assistance. But we didn't--we didn't need it, and felt it wasn't fair to.

 

This is a different situation. The system I have paid into all of my life is assisting me when I need it. Totally different. I am not abusing it. As soon as I can get off of it, I plan to. When I can get my house ready to sell and move from VA that is supposed to help both my daughter and I with our health, and then we should be able to stop most of our meds, so I am hoping then we won't need it anymore--she will be old enough for me to work, and it will be resolved. But, in the meantime, no matter what you or anyone else thinks, I know what I am doing is right--again, it is the best thing for my daughter. And, btw, nothing you say can make it harder than it was for me when I had to apply--that was one of the hardest things I ever had to do in my life--reconciling myself to the mistakes I had made, and the fact that I couldn't support my family. So you can make your condescending remarks, and yes, they certainly are, all you want--you said homeschooling my daughter is not a right--it isn't--but doing the best I can for her is, and I know I'm doing what is best for my daughter.

[Mom to Aly]

Oh, and, so you know, in jumping to your conclusions, I'm not Christian, don't have a "congregation" to help me (that is a Christian term, I believe--I've never heard another religion refer to the people in their place of worship like that). I don't have a place of worship where I live. And I did not yet belong to a hs group when all this happened; just found one about 3 years ago. And I still don't have anyone I'm close enough with to leave my daughter with so I can go to the dr., due to some happenings in that group, so, leaving her with other hsing fams while I go to work? Out of the ques.

[Demal]

I think I know what you're getting at but can you be more specific? I'm also not sure I would call them "welfare entitlements"...

 

The libertarian think tank Cato Institute calls it welfare.

 

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8230

 

Click on the pdf file for the full report, "The Corporate Welfare State: How the Federal Government Subsidizes U.S. Businesses" ($92 billion in 2006).

 

Back to the original post. I think the table overstates the tax cuts under McCain's proposal. He wants to tax employer-provided health care benefits, offset by a $5,000 credit. Thing is, the $5,000 probably won't be enough to offset this tax on dh's employer-provided health benefits. Our taxes may well increase under McCain's plan.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/11/politics/animal/main4440453.shtml

 

(Or google "McCain tax health insurance" if you consider this source biased.)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

The libertarian think tank Cato Institute calls it welfare.

 

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8230

 

Click on the pdf file for the full report, "The Corporate Welfare State: How the Federal Government Subsidizes U.S. Businesses" ($92 billion in 2006).

 

Back to the original post. I think the table overstates the tax cuts under McCain's proposal. He wants to tax employer-provided health care benefits, offset by a $5,000 credit. Thing is, the $5,000 probably won't be enough to offset this tax on dh's employer-provided health benefits. Our taxes may well increase under McCain's plan.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/11/politics/animal/main4440453.shtml

 

(Or google "McCain tax health insurance" if you consider this source biased.)

 

And how much are the CEO's of Fannie and Freddie getting as a buyout? Dh says $10M apiece, but he's asleep and I can't find confirmation of that online. (Anyone? I see it referenced in a blog, but no trackback. And dh doesn't read blogs, so I know he didn't read it on one.)

 

Where is this buyout money coming from? Taxpayers. A little less money to invest in infrastructure, that.

 

Corporate welfare. With a great big ol' payment to two individuals, to the tune of ?? $20M.

[Demal]

And how much are the CEO's of Fannie and Freddie getting as a buyout? Dh says $10M apiece, but he's asleep and I can't find confirmation of that online.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR2008090802605.html?hpid=topnews

 

(People who consider The Washington Post biased

should google "fannie mae freddie mac executive compensation.")