AP Scheduling

[Reefgazer]

What do you all think is a good time to start high school AP courses in English and history?  DD is very capable in these subjects, but she will be a youngish high schooler (she'll start high school when she is barely 14) and I don't want to disadvantage her by having her take them early.  OTOH, I also don't want to overload her with APs as a junior, and we want our APs done by senior year.  So I have freshman, sophomore, and junior year to manage APs.  We will only be taking a small handful of APs overall (3-4), and I am thinking of AP Government, AP Biology, and one or two of the AP English courses.  Would ninth grade be too early for one of the AP English courses?  Which of the English courses would you start with?

[swimmermom3]

What do you all think is a good time to start high school AP courses in English and history?  DD is very capable in these subjects, but she will be a youngish high schooler (she'll start high school when she is barely 14) and I don't want to disadvantage her by having her take them early.  OTOH, I also don't want to overload her with APs as a junior, and we want our APs done by senior year.  So I have freshman, sophomore, and junior year to manage APs.  We will only be taking a small handful of APs overall (3-4), and I am thinking of AP Government, AP Biology, and one or two of the AP English courses.  Would ninth grade be too early for one of the AP English courses?  Which of the English courses would you start with?

 

I know that AP scores for senior year won't be in until the student has most likely made their college decision, so what courses will you use to demonstrate continuing challenge senior year? I am assuming you will have her take CC or university courses at that point?

 

English Language is often taken before English Literature if the student is going to take both. DS thought Language was significantly easier than Literature. Of the four that you have listed, ds has taken all but the government exams and he will be doing both of those as a senior. His thoughts on scheduling are as follows:

 

9th - English Language (great preparation for AP exams' essay portions in general)

10th - Biology

11th - Literature and U.S. Government or Comparative Governments

 

This is with a couple of caveats. For English Language, your student should have strong writing skills already. This isn't really the class to learn them in. Can she write strong sentences and paragraphs and does she have at least the basics of essay construction mastered?

 

Biology goes down smoother if the student has a solid chemistry background.

 

What do you all think is a good time to start high school AP courses in English and history?  DD is very capable in these subjects, but she will be a youngish high schooler (she'll start high school when she is barely 14) and I don't want to disadvantage her by having her take them early.  OTOH, I also don't want to overload her with APs as a junior, and we want our APs done by senior year.  So I have freshman, sophomore, and junior year to manage APs.  We will only be taking a small handful of APs overall (3-4), and I am thinking of AP Government, AP Biology, and one or two of the AP English courses.  Would ninth grade be too early for one of the AP English courses?  Which of the English courses would you start with?

 

Assuming you require four years of English, and you want to show progressively more difficult classes each year, what would English classes would follow AP English Lit if it were taken in 9th grade?

 

Not all AP classes are equal difficulty.  Generally, math/science and foreign language are considered the most difficult, and the social sciences the easiest.  For earning points in the UK admissions systems, some AP exams are worth half that of others, to give you a objective view of their difficulty.

[swimmermom3]

Assuming you require four years of English, and you want to show progressively more difficult classes each year, what would English classes would follow AP English Lit if it were taken in 9th grade?

 

Not all AP classes are equal difficulty.  Generally, math/science and foreign language are considered the most difficult, and the social sciences the easiest.  For earning points in the UK admissions systems, some AP exams are worth half that of others, to give you a objective view of their difficulty.

 

Off the top of my head, most of the universities we've looked at here offer 3 credits for English, statistics, and government, while science and languages can earn as much as 12 credits and history offers around 6 credits.

 

[cjzimmer1]

Something else to consider if you are hoping to actually get college credit for the AP classes (versus taking them just for the academic challenge), the handful of schools we have looked at will give credit for the Language class or the Literature class but not both.  Obviously I'm sure that is highly variable but just something to keep in mind if you pursue both English classes.  Also I've heard the Biology one is quite difficult because of the numbers of terms that need to be memorized.  Unless your kid is extremely passionate about biology, I'd want them to have regular biology before AP Biology (again YMMV).  Also agree with others if you finish AP classes by junior year, that if they aren't taking dual enrolled classes senior year, it will look like they are slacking.

[Reefgazer]

I greatly prefer dual enrollment to AP courses.  The only reason we are doing any AP at all is to verify mommy grades and because colleges seem to expect them as a standard of rigor.  I plan for DD to do dual enrollment or some interest-led course her senior year.  Also on the table (but not a given by any means) is a semester travelling for charity work in another country, in which case, the literature of that country will likely be her literature and writing course. 

 

Tell your DS thanks for his input; I appreciate it!  This was kind of what I was aiming for for DD, but I was unsure of any APs as a freshman because of her age.  Her writing skills have greatly improved now that she has been homeschooled for three years; I am much more confident of her writing abilities now, but still not all that confident in my own ability in evaluating her (not sure if *that* makes any sense at all).  This year, I have seen a huge jump in her ability to put together a solid sentence and paragraph.  She writes an excellent essay as far as organization and ideas go, but her punctuation and spelling is still 'meh'.  But because of her age, I can also see where another year will serve her well, so I may hold that one until tenth grade. 

 

 

I know that AP scores for senior year won't be in until the student has most likely made their college decision, so what courses will you use to demonstrate continuing challenge senior year? I am assuming you will have her take CC or university courses at that point?

 

English Language is often taken before English Literature if the student is going to take both. DS thought Language was significantly easier than Literature. Of the four that you have listed, ds has taken all but the government exams and he will be doing both of those as a senior. His thoughts on scheduling are as follows:

 

9th - English Language (great preparation for AP exams' essay portions in general)

10th - Biology

11th - Literature and U.S. Government or Comparative Governments

 

This is with a couple of caveats. For English Language, your student should have strong writing skills already. This isn't really the class to learn them in. Can she write strong sentences and paragraphs and does she have at least the basics of essay construction mastered?

 

Biology goes down smoother if the student has a solid chemistry background.

 

[Reefgazer]

If we are not doing AP courses for English, we'll likely go the dual enrollment route, or some other interest-led literature/writing.

Assuming you require four years of English, and you want to show progressively more difficult classes each year, what would English classes would follow AP English Lit if it were taken in 9th grade?

 

Not all AP classes are equal difficulty.  Generally, math/science and foreign language are considered the most difficult, and the social sciences the easiest.  For earning points in the UK admissions systems, some AP exams are worth half that of others, to give you a objective view of their difficulty.

 

[Reefgazer]

My goal in having DD take AP courses is strictly to verify mommy grades and enhance her profile for college admissions.  I can do rigorous on my own without the constraints of an AP syllabus.  In fact, one of the downsides to the AP, IMO, is the constraint it puts on us when we try to follow DD's interests (especially in science).  I didn't know colleges take only one or the other of the English APs - thanks for that heads-up!  Although I consider getting college credit for the APs to be gravy.

 

DD's strength is science and she is very strong in it.  But I don't want to disadvantage her in any way, so she will have honors biology and honors chemistry under her belt before we do AP Bio; which means AP Bio will be one of the junior year classes, most likely.

Something else to consider if you are hoping to actually get college credit for the AP classes (versus taking them just for the academic challenge), the handful of schools we have looked at will give credit for the Language class or the Literature class but not both.  Obviously I'm sure that is highly variable but just something to keep in mind if you pursue both English classes.  Also I've heard the Biology one is quite difficult because of the numbers of terms that need to be memorized.  Unless your kid is extremely passionate about biology, I'd want them to have regular biology before AP Biology (again YMMV).  Also agree with others if you finish AP classes by junior year, that if they aren't taking dual enrolled classes senior year, it will look like they are slacking.

 

[GoodGrief]

It depends a bit on what else your daughter has going on in her life (does she have heavy extracurriculars?), but I think a bright academically-oriented ninth grader is certainly capable of handling an AP course (or two or three.) In retrospect, I let myself get unnecessarily intimidated by the "AP" title, and my current senior could have handled, and would have enjoyed, a few more AP courses. 

 

The stressful part comes in scheduling the tests, and that's where I caution you to do your homework before signing her up for courses.  One year, my daughter had to forgo the AP World History exam, opting to take the SAT subject test instead, because we simply could not find a testing location for what seemed to be a relatively common exam.  As it turned out, the local school districts alternated it with US History, and my daughter was taking it during "US History" year.  This past year, I did confirm that a particular school would be offering the AP Music Theory exam in the spring before the school year began.  Apparently though schedules changed in the fall, and when I went to schedule the test...it was not an option.  Luckily I did find another site for that exam.

 

My daughter (who is my second homeschooler; oldest graduated in '13 with no AP exams :-) ) did AP US Govt and Politics in 9th grade; English Lit/World History/Calc AB in 10th grade; English Lang/Biology/Music Theory in 11th.  She has AP Stats and Computer Science right now, and has done some dual enrollment too.

 

Editing to add this after re-reading your last post:  I'm not sure that a strong science kid necessarily needs a previous Bio class before AP Bio.  Mine did not have that, and got a high A in the class, in addition to scoring a 5 on the exam.  She did have a fairly strong (though not impressively so) science foundation from elementary and middle school.

[MarkT]

see also

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/562662-what-online-certified-ap-classes-can-my-9th-grader-take/

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/520389-ap-at-what-grade/?hl=%26quot%3Bfirst+ap%26quot%3B&do=findComment&comment=5767735

[Reefgazer]

Her main extracurriculars are spending time at the barn and riding horses (3 days a week, at the moment) and 2 hours of competitive swim per day. 

 

Regarding scheduling AP tests:  how far in advance did you schedule these tests?  Are school districts obligated to allow a homeschooler to sit for the AP exam like they are with the SAT?

It depends a bit on what else your daughter has going on in her life (does she have heavy extracurriculars?), but I think a bright academically-oriented ninth grader is certainly capable of handling an AP course (or two or three.) In retrospect, I let myself get unnecessarily intimidated by the "AP" title, and my current senior could have handled, and would have enjoyed, a few more AP courses. 

 

The stressful part comes in scheduling the tests, and that's where I caution you to do your homework before signing her up for courses.  One year, my daughter had to forgo the AP World History exam, opting to take the SAT subject test instead, because we simply could not find a testing location for what seemed to be a relatively common exam.  As it turned out, the local school districts alternated it with US History, and my daughter was taking it during "US History" year.  This past year, I did confirm that a particular school would be offering the AP Music Theory exam in the spring before the school year began.  Apparently though schedules changed in the fall, and when I went to schedule the test...it was not an option.  Luckily I did find another site for that exam.

 

My daughter (who is my second homeschooler; oldest graduated in '13 with no AP exams :-) ) did AP US Govt and Politics in 9th grade; English Lit/World History/Calc AB in 10th grade; English Lang/Biology/Music Theory in 11th.  She has AP Stats and Computer Science right now, and has done some dual enrollment too.

 

Editing to add this after re-reading your last post:  I'm not sure that a strong science kid necessarily needs a previous Bio class before AP Bio.  Mine did not have that, and got a high A in the class, in addition to scoring a 5 on the exam.  She did have a fairly strong (though not impressively so) science foundation from elementary and middle school.

 

[Luckymama]

I wish schools were obligated to allow homeschoolers (or outside students, in general) sit AP exams!

 

Last year my dsis and I contacted schools in January. Our kids were taking AP Human Geography together (I wrote the syllabus, dsis and I facilitated the discussions) which is unusual in this area. We found one school that allowed outside students and had our kids registered by the end of January.

 

I will be talking with that school's guidance counselor the day after the PSAT to see if they will have seats for dd this year.

[G5052]

I will be talking with that school's guidance counselor the day after the PSAT to see if they will have seats for dd this year.

 

Exactly. I actually have it on my calendar for the week after because they said to call them then.  The ones we want are common and definitely offered there, but I don't want to take a chance.

[MarkT]

9th - English Language  -  not usually recommended for first AP - this is somewhat of the standard bearer for comparing students since it has the highest number of test takers. You want a 4 or 5.

of course YMMV

============================

 

"Okay, Seriously, Which AP Classes Are the Hardest?
United States History, Biology, English Literature, Calculus BC, Physics C, and Chemistry are often named as the hardest AP classes and tests. These classes have large curriculums, tough tests, and conceptually difficult material."

from
http://blog.prepscholar.com/hardest-ap-classes-and-tests

[swimmermom3]

9th - English Language  -  not usually recommended for first AP - this is somewhat of the standard bearer for comparing students since it has the highest number of test takers. You want a 4 or 5.

of course YMMV

============================

 

"Okay, Seriously, Which AP Classes Are the Hardest?

United States History, Biology, English Literature, Calculus BC, Physics C, and Chemistry are often named as the hardest AP classes and tests. These classes have large curriculums, tough tests, and conceptually difficult material."

from

http://blog.prepscholar.com/hardest-ap-classes-and-tests

 

Ds took English Language as a 10th grader. It was the right time for him, but I am fairly sure 9th grade wouldn't have been. It's not just about writing ability; it's also about critical thinking ability. It was ds's first AP course, but he had an outstanding teacher and it wasn't me. :D

 

Ds thought Literature was tougher than Biology even though he got a better score in it.

 

[Reefgazer]

This is the kind of info I need. Since DD will be barely 14 when she hits ninth grade, it seems that the English courses should be off the table until later.

 

9th - English Language - not usually recommended for first AP - this is somewhat of the standard bearer for comparing students since it has the highest number of test takers. You want a 4 or 5.

of course YMMV

============================

 

"Okay, Seriously, Which AP Classes Are the Hardest?

United States History, Biology, English Literature, Calculus BC, Physics C, and Chemistry are often named as the hardest AP classes and tests. These classes have large curriculums, tough tests, and conceptually difficult material."

from

http://blog.prepscholar.com/hardest-ap-classes-and-tests

[Reefgazer]

Thanks, Swimmermom. Considering you and Mark agree on this and no one has argued otherwise, English will stay off the table of possibilities for a few years.
 

Ds took English Language as a 10th grader. It was the right time for him, but I am fairly sure 9th grade wouldn't have been. It's not just about writing ability; it's also about critical thinking ability. It was ds's first AP course, but he had an outstanding teacher and it wasn't me. :D

Ds thought Literature was tougher than Biology even though he got a better score in it.

[AFwife Claire]

My 2nd son, who is now a junior, took AP Micro in 9th grade, and then lit, world history, and macro in 10th.  He's taking stats, bio, and US Gov. this year.  My first son took AP Gov. his junior year, and thought it was very easy.  He self-studied and did not spend very much time at all on it, but got a 5.  If your daughter has had any US history, knowledge of current political events, etc., that might be a good one to take freshman year.  

 

Both sons took the AP lit class last year, and both agreed it was hard (esp. for science-y kids--definitely not intuitive to figure out what they want for all the ambiguous questions/terms), although they both ended up doing quite well on the exam.  Biology is not supposed to be as focused on memorizing a ton of facts anymore.  Now you're supposed to make all these connections--and in some ways that is even harder, since you don't really *know* what you are supposed to know.  There is still a TON of material to get through though.

[swimmermom3]

Thanks, Swimmermom. Considering you and Mark agree on this and no one has argued otherwise, English will stay off the table of possibilities for a few years.

 

 

The nice thing about having done the course in 10th grade was that his essay work was more polished for the following AP courses. The idea of having to write a well-though-out, coherent essay in under an hour no longer freaks him out.  A friend of our older son who was the "AP Queen" actually suggested the timing to me and I am grateful. We also did AP European History that year, but he didn't test because he felt overwhelmed. Now he's kicking himself for not taking it. It was really learning process managing both classes.

 

Last year as an 11th grader, he took four AP classes: Biology, Literature, Macroeconomics, and Statistics.  It was a really tough year and the only saving grace was shoulder surgery which prevented him from doing high school swimming and spring sailing. The AP Biology class wasn't actually intentional. Registration for it was before the PAHS classes, but he checked it out andhe didn't want to withdraw.

 

Ds is probably more of the standard AP class student. He is not the student with 4 or more AP classes per year with all "A's" and all "5's."  He has predominantly fours with a three for biology, which he is actually proud of as that class about sank him even though he loved the course material. The three matches his course grades of C for the first semester and B for the second semester. A 730 on the SAT Subject was a bit more reassuring. That was ds's first C in high school coursework, so no 4.0s here.

 

Ds moves at slower pace than many of the students we know that take several AP courses, so pacing is always the thorn in my side and I am forever looking for creative ways to impart information and assure mastery.

 

I guess I am sharing this because I want you to know that for many students, pacing will be an issue and it is something you will have to learn to be flexible about. I have an appreciate/loathe relationship with AP coursework. To some extent, you can provide more depth,say for history, but you will still have to prepare the student for the test. For us, they were more practical than DE classes and were often the next level of challenge required in ds's educational sequence.

 

[Kareni]

What do you all think is a good time to start high school AP courses in English and history? 

 

I think it depends a great deal on your child's particular strengths.

 

My daughter did the following.  All of her AP classes were out of the home classes.

 

 

10th grade: AP US History (after a three year sweep of world history in grades 7, 8 and 9)

 

11th grade: AP Latin (this was her fourth year of Latin studies) and AP Comparative Government and Politics (no previous Government course)

 

12th grade: AP Statistics (after taking math through PreCalculus though Algebra 2 was the stated prerequisite)

 

She did not take any AP English classes as none were available to us at the time; instead, she took six quarters of writing and literature classes at the local community college.

 

She scored fives in Latin and Statistics but fours on both of the other tests.  She had no particular interest in history or government; however, she loved Latin and went on to major in it in college.  She was also quite competent in math and had an excellent instructor in her PA Homeschooler class.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[GoodGrief]

Re: scheduling, the schools are not obligated to host homeschoolers.  I'd suggest inquiring in the spring before you purchase/begin the next year's curric (and before schools close for the summer) just to see what hurdles you might face in scheduling for your area, and what classes the schools are offering.  Now, the schools don't have to actually offer the class in order to give the test.  However, many are reluctant to tie up a staff member for proctoring if your kid is the only one doing a particular test.  We got incredibly lucky two different years (for US Gov and Music Theory) in finding places that WERE willing to tie up a staff member, because my child was, indeed, the only one doing those tests.

 

The actual scheduling will be done sometime after the New Year; I think the deadline for the AP organization is in March, but schools vary as to how they handle signups.  Inquiring early is a wise idea.  Keep in mind too that if your kid has two APs scheduled for the same testing time slot, that can cause additional scheduling difficulties.  I'm not sure how early the national schedule goes up, but it's a good idea to look at that aspect early too.

[Frances]

From your list of possibilities, AP Government is a good choice for a freshman as it is only equivalent to a one quarter or one semester college classs. My son did it then and it was during a presidential election year, so there were lots of opportunities to incorporate that in the class. He travelled to the other side of the country to a battleground state to spend three weeks working on the presidential campaign with his supervisor from an internship he did locally during the primaries.

[Reefgazer]

Yes, now I am thinking about this for her first AP as a sophomore, or possibly as a freshman.

 

From your list of possibilities, AP Government is a good choice for a freshman as it is only equivalent to a one quarter or one semester college classs. My son did it then and it was during a presidential election year, so there were lots of opportunities to incorporate that in the class. He travelled to the other side of the country to a battleground state to spend three weeks working on the presidential campaign with his supervisor from an internship he did locally during the primaries.

[Luckymama]

Honestly, I think the best first AP is one that the student finds really interesting. The amount of reading, writing, and/or problem sets involved can be difficult to adjust to, so it's best that you at least enjoy the subject!

 

Dd chose AP Human Geography as her first AP (9th grade) because it is a mix of topics she personally finds interesting---physical geography, culture, politics, economics, and history, among others.

 

This year she's taking a bunch of APs because of interest (Comparative Government, Psych, Environmental Science) or because they're next in the sequence of possible classes (English Language, Calculus AB).

[Reefgazer]

Her main interests would be chemistry, physics, or biology.  But I'm too skeered for her to do one of those without an honors bio or chem first.  We are doing honors bio next year in 9th grade, so maybe AP bio for 10th or 11th.

Honestly, I think the best first AP is one that the student finds really interesting. The amount of reading, writing, and/or problem sets involved can be difficult to adjust to, so it's best that you at least enjoy the subject!

Dd chose AP Human Geography as her first AP (9th grade) because it is a mix of topics she personally finds interesting---physical geography, culture, politics, economics, and history, among others.

This year she's taking a bunch of APs because of interest (Comparative Government, Psych, Environmental Science) or because they're next in the sequence of possible classes (English Language, Calculus AB).

 

[swimmermom3]

Honestly, I think the best first AP is one that the student finds really interesting. The amount of reading, writing, and/or problem sets involved can be difficult to adjust to, so it's best that you at least enjoy the subject!

 

Dd chose AP Human Geography as her first AP (9th grade) because it is a mix of topics she personally finds interesting---physical geography, culture, politics, economics, and history, among others.

 

This year she's taking a bunch of APs because of interest (Comparative Government, Psych, Environmental Science) or because they're next in the sequence of possible classes (English Language, Calculus AB).

 

A big "Yes!" to the part in bold. However, I admit that ds was not exactly thrilled to be taking English Language as his first AP class. He did see it as a necessary skill class and once he was in it, he loved it thanks to the skill of the teacher and the critical analysis aspect. Most of the AP classes ds has taken or is taking fit into the "of interest" category: history, economics, biology, government and politics, and Spanish. English Language and statistics are seen as "necessary skills" classes and while not of overwhelming interest, are considered vital in pursuing subjects of interest. The only class that didn't fit either category is English Literature. Ds is not a reader and didn't bring to the table the same level of passion that many of his classmates did. He took the class because he felt that another year with the same excellent teacher was really to his advantage.

 

I personally would find it incredibly difficult to do the amount of work these kids do in a class I had no interest in.  College, yes; high school, no.