Bail on Saxon or forge ahead?

[MEVmom]

Let me preface this question by saying I was raised on Saxon, and Saxon is all I've ever used in the 4 yrs I've been homeschooling so far. I am not one to jump ship quickly when it comes to curriculum. But... I have some issues with my 8 yr old DD that have me wondering if there's a better way. She is an easily frustrated, fall apart kind of kid. She always has been. Math is often torture for her. Not because she can't grasp the concepts, but because she is so easily overwhelmed. For example she cannot handle the pressure of timed fact sheets. Tests also shut her down, despite my assurances that I'm really not all that concerned with grades. In other words, I'm not pressuring her.

A lot of her issues are things I have been working on for years. I do want her to learn to persevere when things are challenging. But I also don't want to stubbornly refuse to change course if this curriculum in particular is too much for her.

I'm worried because moving from Saxon 3 to 5/4 this year will be a big jump in terms of workload. There are more problems AND she will have to shift from worksheets to copying down the problems. I predict some epic meltdowns from her this year.

I'm rambling! I just need help. Would a different curriculum be helpful? Or is there anything else I can do to make this year less painful!

[SparklyUnicorn]

It might help to switch, but you could first try modifying what you have.  For example, don't time the worksheets.  Do fewer problems.  Maybe turn some of the fact practice into games or find computer games that do the same thing.

 

 

[MEVmom]

We did stop the fact sheets and do flashcards instead. Somehow she is ok with that, for the most part.

I'm just worried about the load of 5/4, esp with having to copy the problems.

[wapiti]

Don't time anything.  Don't call tests "tests" if you can get away with it (e.g. "we're just using this for a review, not counting it as a test").

 

I do want her to learn to persevere when things are challenging.

 

Volume of problems is a separate issue from challenge.  Copying problems is yet another separate issue though volume exacerbates that.

 

There are many other very good programs to choose from if Saxon is a bad fit.

[Ellie]

You could wait a year, until she's 9, to start 54. Even then, you could have her do half a lesson each day instead of a whole lesson (IOW, two days per lesson).

[HSmomof2]

Don't time anything. Don't call tests "tests" if you can get away with it (e.g. "we're just using this for a review, not counting it as a test").

 

 

Volume of problems is a separate issue from challenge. Copying problems is yet another separate issue though volume exacerbates that.

 

There are many other very good programs to choose from if Saxon is a bad fit.

Don't want to hijack, but what would be a program recommended for a child like this? (My ds(12) is exactly like this and math has been torture for both of us. 😊)

[Farrar]

Well, I would bail, but take that with the understanding that I'm not a Saxon fan overall.

 

She has anxiety. Hugs! One of my ds is also anxious. Math was also a trigger for him. But, hey, several years on, it's his favorite subject by far. He loves math now. I think for a kid who is stressed by the drills and the pages of practice, Saxon is probably never going to be a good fit. I mean, over time, you might help her learn to deal with it, but I doubt she'd ever love math and there are so many other approaches out there.

 

Where you go depends. Maybe Life of Fred, maybe Beast Academy, maybe just something else (CLE? Math Mammoth?) so you can have a bit of a fresh start. Would having more of a story or having more of a challenge but fewer problems help? Would a cleaner look help? Like Ellie said above, you can still decide to go back to Saxon without having her be really behind and maybe a detour would help you learn to help her with her anxiety and help her learn to enjoy math a little more.

 

Whether you change or stay, I'd focus more on dealing with the anxiety than on the math overall. Let it be slower if it needs to be with long term goals of, like you said, perseverance and resilience in mind.

[HomeAgain]

We bailed.  We got through half of 5/4, and in the process lost my son's love of math.  I figured any program that did that wasn't worth it no matter how popular and rigorous it was.  I switched, went the other direction with a softer program (MUS) where he felt like he mastered the material again.  Over the years we added in other ways of looking at math (Hands on Equations, TOPS, AOPS, Jacobs, Patty Paper) going slowly.  He's a pretty mathy kid overall, and elected to take 5 courses during high school instead of 4.  I think if we had stayed with Saxon it would have been misery for both of us and he wouldn't feel nearly as confident in his abilities.

[Storygirl]

I struggled to find a math program that would work for my oldest. Math was just very hard for her, and she would cry, and she didn't seem to make progress, though we worked hard at it. We tried several programs (and by "tried" I mean used them for a year or more), including Saxon at both the younger levels and 5/4. Finally we found CLE (Christian Light Education). She still works hard, and math is not her best subject, but she hasn't cried over math in years, and she is scoring well on the quizzes and tests.

 

You may decide to stick with Saxon, but look at CLE as well. She won't have to copy problems; it is a spiral program that teaches new concepts in small pieces; and there are only a few of each kind of problem in the review section each day, though each type of problem is reviewed often. It works for my children because they are constantly reviewing what they have learned so that they don't forget it, but they don't get overwhelmed by having to do too much of any one thing each day.

 

CLE has a lot of samples on their website, as well as placement tests, which are necessary.

 

ETA: Everyone is so different that I rarely tell anyone whether they should switch to a different curriculum. But if you really want opinions, I vote to bail on Saxon. You've given it an honorable try, and it is not working well for her.

[wapiti]

Don't want to hijack, but what would be a program recommended for a child like this? (My ds(12) is exactly like this and math has been torture for both of us. 😊)

 

It's hard to say without knowing more, but I'm willing to offer the following *gross* generalities with the disclaimer that, of course, there are differences between individuals; it isn't really a category but one-half of a continuum.  Kids who panic under time pressure and who have issues with handwriting may lean toward a visual-spatial style of learning and thinking (VSL), with the potential for weaknesses in areas like sequencing and rote memorization.

 

Generally speaking, VSLs tend to learn better when the big picture is presented before the details so that there is a location  context in which to hang the memory detail - am I making any sense?  Often the big picture (e.g. a math concept) is relied upon when the details (e.g., sequence of steps, or algorithm) fail them.

 

My understanding is that Saxon is based on a philosophy of learning a concept via repetition of the procedure.  There are other programs that have different philosophies of learning such as leaning more heavily on concept instruction, i.e. the big picture, *up front,* that may be better suited for a person whose learning style tends toward visual-spatial.  It is also possible to tweak some programs such that the parent offers more of the concept up front.

 

Hopefully others will chime in with their opinions on favorite programs for VSLs.  The first ones that come to mind are Miquon and Beast Academy, though BA is also intended to really challenge, so whether or not it would be a fit for a particular VSL may depend on other factors.  (Same for AoPS.)  Singapore is probably a good choice.  MM can be, but it depends; the lessons are broken down into smaller bites so I think it works best when the parent chooses carefully how many problems to assign for a given part of the lesson and/or is able to compact lessons when necessary (I have used a lot of MM and tend to throw in a lot of my own two cents on the big picture).  The number of problems on a page is a common complaint for MM though that wasn't an issue in my house (I wasn't assigning them all anyway, but there's a visual issue for some people apparently).

 

On the anxiety angle, whatever program you choose, consider sitting with the child the whole time he or she is working on exercises.  "Buddy math" is a good way to get over anxiety - either you alternate doing problems or work together.  Work on a white board rather than in a book (sometimes white boards have magical qualities, especially for a kid with a handwriting issues but even for kids without such issues).  Talk through your own problem-solving process out loud, including errors, mistakes, changes of direction, etc.  And of course with no rush, no time pressure, no glancing at the clock about how long this is taking.

[MEVmom]

I really appreciate the responses! Thanks so much. Yes, my DD does seem to be very anxious, though it tends to express itself as anger actually. And I think she is a VSL perhaps, though I don't know much about the types (in other words I know almost nothing). I also know very little about all the other math curriculums out there. I get easily overwhelmed by a lot of options. I tend to be the type who finds a solid, no-nonsense approach, and just put my nose to the grindstone. BUT I am willing to put in work to learn something new if it means things would click. Also I noticed this year that even my DS, who excels at math (read: is never stumped), seemed disinterested and now complains of "not liking" math. So I'm wondering if I need to give them both something new...

 

 

[FriedClams]

We use Saxon for algebra 1/2 and up...not before...too tedious...We loved Horizons.

[Tiramisu]

If you want to stay with Saxon, you need to look at Saxon Intermediate 4. It's basically the same as 54 Saxon in content but in a format made to help kids transition from the younger levels of Saxon to the upper levels. They have written workbooks, but the best workbook of all is their Adaptation Student Workbook. It's got the same problems, written with lots of white space for problem solving, along with little prompts to help get kids going in the right direction.

 

http://www.christianbook.com/saxon-math-intermediate-4-homeschool-kit/9780544130029/pd/4130029?product_redirect=1&Ntt=4130029&item_code=&Ntk=keywords&event=ESRCP

and

http://www.christianbook.com/saxon-math-intermediate-adaptions-student-workbook/9781600323317/pd/323313?event=CPOF

  

[almondbutterandjelly]

I would bail on Saxon, too.  For my vsl, we unfortunately moved around a lot for arithmetic (i.e. everything before Pre-Algebra).  We finally settled on Singapore Math, US Edition.  We started back at book 1A, though, and advanced quickly up to grade level within a couple years.  (I believe we started Singapore in 3rd grade.)  1A and 1B are not to be missed, in my opinion, because they really give the big picture of addition and subtraction.  I can't remember if mult. and div. are in there, too, at that level, but anyway, for my big-picture thinking VSL, it was better to go back and hit that.  We did the textbook and workbook for each level up to about 3A, where we sort of stalled and switched for awhile.  But it was great.

 

The thing about VSLs is that arithmetic is usually torture, because it sort of is not big picture at all.  My dd really started shining and enjoying things once we hit Pre-Algebra.  (We used Zaccaro's Real World Algebra for a couple chapters, the first book in the Key to Algebra series, then Horizons Pre-Algebra.  We are now in Horizons Algebra.)

 

If I had to do it over again, I probably would have stayed with Singapore, even after we hit the wall.  Just persevering.  Buying visual aids, math manipulatives, etc.  But hindsight is 20/20.

[MEVmom]

So if I move to singapore, you think I need to start at the beginning? My concerns with that are as follows: 1) my DS is gifted. It's hard to challenge him, so I worry that math that is too easy will bore him. He was totally bored with Saxon 5/4, yet still complained it was "too hard" (by which he meant the work took too long because he has trouble focusing). 2) My DD will freak out if she thinks she is "going back" to first grade math.

[Farrar]

Singapore is better for most mathy kids than Saxon. I don't think you need to start all over. There are placement tests and your kids are so young. If your ds is very bright, consider using Beast Academy.

[momof4babes]

My DD is very easily stressed by math.

 

She does well with Singapore, but we were having retention issues.

 

I purchased Saxon, and looked it over with her.

She was incredibly overwhelmed by the sheer number of problems, and the amount of repetition.

 

We have decided instead to give Math Mammoth a try this year. There seems to be quite a bit of extra practice I can pull from if we need it.

She actually liked the format of the pages, and feels less overwhelmed by having a work text, rather than 3 separate books.

[almondbutterandjelly]

So if I move to singapore, you think I need to start at the beginning? My concerns with that are as follows: 1) my DS is gifted. It's hard to challenge him, so I worry that math that is too easy will bore him. He was totally bored with Saxon 5/4, yet still complained it was "too hard" (by which he meant the work took too long because he has trouble focusing). 2) My DD will freak out if she thinks she is "going back" to first grade math.

 

You know your kids best.  My dd loves "easy" stuff and doesn't care what level it is.

 

I will say that my understanding is that Singapore doesn't even start kids on level 1 until they are 9 years old, so things are done differently there.  It's not truly 1st grade in the American sense, I believe.

[monalisa]

At that age, my dd could not tolerate any timed tests either.   And copying problems would have put her over the edge so though I looked at Saxon 5/4 seriously, I used BJU and CLE (in different years).  She does fine in math, but that format would not have been good for her either.   However, now at age 12 Saxon 7/6 is a decent fit for her and the timed tests are not a problem.  It took her until 5th grade to master her facts, and using Reflex math was what finally helped her (a subscription online program).  If it was me, I would consider switching.

[shernandez]

We had this exact problem with DD (7). We just switched to CLE math, and math is now one of her top fav things. It still times facts, but gives 2min instead, which has made a difference. It also has spiral.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The math books from the Critical Thinking Company are working well for my math hater.

 

Specifically the Mathematical Reasoning series.  They are very colorful and have puzzles, etc. 

 

 

 

[MotherOfBoys]

We had mixed problems with Saxon. We did K, 1, and 2. We switched to MM because it was cheaper and easier to move around (slow, fast, interest based) then Saxon. That went well for a year and we were ahead so I decided to take a detour to Beast Academy. I'm so glad we did! They love math. We can buddy style it if needed. My 5 yr old listens to the readings too. I have MM for review still if we need it, but we haven't. I use Khan Academy online for review once in a while. I do not regret this detour.

 

My vote is to take a year and try beast with both kids as a family math time. They can both learn from the same lesson. Get that love of math back. We read on Mondays and then divide the wkbk pages up for the rest of the week. Then reassess Saxon. Maybe a small, fun break is all you need. :thumbup:

[Caviar]

We use CLE (spiral) at our house after trying MUS (mastery).  My kids seem to like the spiral approach better as it holds their interest more.  They still dislike math, but ah well.....  If they want to play on the computer they must first do their chore(s) and then do Xtra Math (free online) to learn their facts.   The Critical Thinking Company Mathematical Reasoning Series looks great too, as another person mentioned above.  It looks fun to me.  Lots of color, but not overdone as in other programs.  Never tried Saxon.