BeckyWJ Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 My son, who will be a senior, just got his ACT results. His math score was a 17. He took the ACT prior to Geometry and made a 17 then, also. His other sub-scores were good. He made a 26 in English, for example. (In other words, I feel he did the best he could on the test and the low math score wasn't a test anxiety issue.) He has completed Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2 using Math U See. He struggled a little, but completed the work and we thought he was ok. Apparently, he was not. We've never used Saxon. He took the placement readiness test for Algebra 1 and passed it. He's currently working on Algebra 2. Is it worth making the switch to Saxon? I would also get the DIVE dvd to go along with it, as he learns well by listening. If I do that, is it possible for him to fast forward through some of the concepts he may know in order to maybe go on to the next book? He's working on the readiness test for Algebra 2 now. I would probably also get him an accounting course (LifePac) to fulfill his 4th year math requirement and if he has to take a remedial class in college, then he just has to do that. If he's placed in Algebra 2, can I go into Algebra 2 without him having Algebra 1? I'm thinking specifically of the integrated geometry. ...Or should we try the new edition of Algebra 2? My goal is for him to be proficient through Algebra 2. I would love for him to be able to get a course above that under his belt, but I'm not sure he has time at this point. What are your thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I would think successful fast forwarding would depend on where and why there are disconnects. Has he tried running through Khan Academy for some additional review? Does he/you know where he was having trouble? Is it specific concepts? Basics like fractions/decimals/math facts/percents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyWJ Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 Basics are good. He said after basic algebra...basic variable stuff...nothing made sense. He does not like Khan Academy's style, so learning from that is minimal and not enough practice for the concept to sink in. He said during Algebra 2, he could look back at the lesson and figure stuff out enough to get by. He took the Algebra 2 at co-op and I didn't ask enough questions to make sure he was doing ok and he didn't want to admit it. He did not do well at all on the Saxon readiness test for Algebra 2, so he would start in Algebra 1. I think he NEEDS a solid understanding of Algebra ...even if it comes his senior year and even if he can't fast track. He is not an un-smart kid. He's used to everything coming easy and when math didn't, he made do. I was also wrong about geometry. He used Teaching Textbooks for that and scored very well. That is frustrating to me. And to him, obviously. My now 10th grade completed MUS Algebra 1 this year. She couldn't pass the Algebra 2 readiness test today, either. She said she remembers most things on the test, but not how to do it, that she'd need to see her MUS textbook. Therefore, I'm thinking they both need drill and review. I know kids who use MUS then take a dual enrollment Calc class their senior year, so I'm not blaming MUS. I just think it isn't working isn't for my kids for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I would tend to ask someone outside the family to assess his math skills and see what they think. Do you know anyone who tutors or who is very good in math that can pick through his skills and give you an assessment. ... I'm not a fan of MUS personally. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teeterbunch Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 My son has used MUS all the way through and made A's. He got to Precalculus and bombed. My son, like yours, was making A's in math, but did not perform well on the math section of the ACT or SAT. To address that issue, he completed (and corrected...very important) lots of practice tests. He also reviewed some concepts on Khan, but I know you son is not a fan of that website. He brought his ACT math score up to a 27; that was still lower than his other scores, but we are content with that. I wonder if one of the issues with MUS is that the tests are multiple choice? I've considered having my kids start working the problems without those options so I have a better idea of what they have truly mastered. I also think it is very important to not move forward until the student has truly mastered the material. I think my kids have cruised through some topics in a way that they weren't able to apply later. Just some thoughts based on my experience. Good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 When we used Saxon, the book told you how the student could test out. If he takes Test 1, 2, and 3 and makes 80% or above, move on to this lesson. If he scores less than 80% on test 3, move back to that lesson. So you can move ahead, but, because of the way Saxon is structured, you really need to take the tests in order. It would be harder to test out of random topics in the middle of the book. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't know that I'd use the ACT as a math assessment. He may just be a slow and careful thinker, which is not rewarded on the ACT. (It makes for a better math student, though) Also, what he can do after a bit of review and what he can do "cold" on an assessment test are likely two different things. You might actually consider going on to the next level of math and seeing how it goes. Oftentimes, kids will be fine with a bit of review on the things they need. They may actually do better if they aren't aware that they're repeating the same class. And as math tends to be cumulative, there will be review built into everything. If you take it slow with plenty of time to pick up the things he forgot, that might work. Math does tend to get harder the farther along you go. But lots and lots of kids go on to pre-calc without being completely firm in their algebra. I see a lot of kids who aren't that firm in higher level physics classes. But for many students, the answer is not to go back and redo the same courses over and over. It's just to realize that everyone forgets stuff, it needs to be reviewed as you go along, and there's no shame in that. And an ACT score is really no indication of anything. There are all sorts of reasons why he might have done "poorly". My kids didn't do all that well on the math ACT and they're doing just fine in advanced math and physics majors at college. Part of it is a "late blooming" phenomenon. Part of it is just that they don't do math fast. They do it thorough instead. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 All that said, we had good luck with Thinkwell calculus, if you're willing to put down some money. The guy who teaches the calc (I think) also does the earlier math courses. He's very methodical. My only complaint is that the problems are not matched up well with the lectures, and are often way harder than they need to be to start off. So if you went that route, you might want to find another source for problems and start with the easier ones first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyWJ Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Saxon Alg. drove us crazy. The topics jump around each and every day. Some people love it, but we didn't. What did worked for us was a suggestion we got on this board: Lial's Introductory Algebra, and the Lial's Intermediate Algebra. Look for the 7th edition on Ebay. They are very cheap, and you can get the solutions manual's too. I can get the ISBN numbers for you if you want them. Each chapter has a test (in the book) that you could tear out, or copy. Your ds could text his way through the book, and see what he's missing. The explanations are very good. Is Lial's self-teaching? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyWJ Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 He told me that algebra does not make sense to him and he doesn't understand it. He can work slowly and still get things wrong because he doesn't know what, exactly, he is supposed to do. I gave him a few fairly simple problems and he just didn't know where to start on several of them. So...his basics are lacking. But you're right, he probably doesn't need to go through an entire program again. I don't know that I'd use the ACT as a math assessment. He may just be a slow and careful thinker, which is not rewarded on the ACT. (It makes for a better math student, though) Also, what he can do after a bit of review and what he can do "cold" on an assessment test are likely two different things. You might actually consider going on to the next level of math and seeing how it goes. Oftentimes, kids will be fine with a bit of review on the things they need. They may actually do better if they aren't aware that they're repeating the same class. And as math tends to be cumulative, there will be review built into everything. If you take it slow with plenty of time to pick up the things he forgot, that might work. Math does tend to get harder the farther along you go. But lots and lots of kids go on to pre-calc without being completely firm in their algebra. I see a lot of kids who aren't that firm in higher level physics classes. But for many students, the answer is not to go back and redo the same courses over and over. It's just to realize that everyone forgets stuff, it needs to be reviewed as you go along, and there's no shame in that. And an ACT score is really no indication of anything. There are all sorts of reasons why he might have done "poorly". My kids didn't do all that well on the math ACT and they're doing just fine in advanced math and physics majors at college. Part of it is a "late blooming" phenomenon. Part of it is just that they don't do math fast. They do it thorough instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Is Lial's self-teaching? If your son is not understanding math and wants to make significant progress during his senior year, it is not going to happen with him self teaching, no matter how wonderful the resource. He needs to interact with a human on a regular basis, one who can tease out where the gaps are and fill them conceptually and then follow it with practice and review problems that target his specific needs. That said, Lial is an excellent choice for remediation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyWJ Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 If your son is not understanding math and wants to make significant progress during his senior year, it is not going to happen with him self teaching, no matter how wonderful the resource. He needs to interact with a human on a regular basis, one who can tease out where the gaps are and fill them conceptually and then follow it with practice and review problems that target his specific needs. That said, Lial is an excellent choice for remediation. I thought he had that interaction in his co-op class. Apparently, he did not. Asked in another way...does Lial's give enough information in the books that a decent math person could use that book and not need a teacher's manual in order to explain the concepts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 He told me that algebra does not make sense to him and he doesn't understand it. He can work slowly and still get things wrong because he doesn't know what, exactly, he is supposed to do. I gave him a few fairly simple problems and he just didn't know where to start on several of them. So...his basics are lacking. This is going to sound crazy and a little over the top, but I'd go for Kumon and pay whatever I had to to ensure that he was going to be able to enter college at college-level math. They know how to teach math to struggling students. That is their thing. I think homeschooling can work for most families, but it doesn't mean it is going to work for every family in every subject every time. It may be time for tutoring. I would also make sure that he understood that just because it's hard, doesn't mean you won't eventually be great at math, and that you also don't have to love it, you just have to do it. This is a challenge but it doesn't mean anything about his intelligence. We work with students at our college all the time who enter college at pre-college math level, who struggle and finally it clicks when at upwards of 20, 25, even 30, they finally get that good teacher and it comes through, and then they go for careers in chemistry, engineering, etc. I see it happen every quarter, we get one or two like that. Not that your son has to go that path. This is just to say, people can change and grow and being challenged in math now does not mean he can't do great in one year or two years. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I thought he had that interaction in his co-op class. Apparently, he did not. Asked in another way...does Lial's give enough information in the books that a decent math person could use that book and not need a teacher's manual in order to explain the concepts? Yes--though I highly recommend the instructor solution manual (gives solutions and sometimes explanation for all problems not just the odds). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Someone who understands the math and has a background in teaching/tutoring should be able to teach out of any book without a teacher guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyWJ Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 This is going to sound crazy and a little over the top, but I'd go for Kumon and pay whatever I had to to ensure that he was going to be able to enter college at college-level math. They know how to teach math to struggling students. That is their thing. I think homeschooling can work for most families, but it doesn't mean it is going to work for every family in every subject every time. It may be time for tutoring. I would also make sure that he understood that just because it's hard, doesn't mean you won't eventually be great at math, and that you also don't have to love it, you just have to do it. This is a challenge but it doesn't mean anything about his intelligence. We work with students at our college all the time who enter college at pre-college math level, who struggle and finally it clicks when at upwards of 20, 25, even 30, they finally get that good teacher and it comes through, and then they go for careers in chemistry, engineering, etc. I see it happen every quarter, we get one or two like that. Not that your son has to go that path. This is just to say, people can change and grow and being challenged in math now does not mean he can't do great in one year or two years. Your last paragraph....first and second sentences...yes!!! My husband and I had that conversation with him last night! Nice to see you reiterate it here! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyWJ Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 I had a long phone conversation with Art Reed of UsingSaxon.com this afternoon. He gave me a course of action with Saxon for the summer and we'll see if that works. If not, then we'll probably go the tutor route. If the course of action works over the summer, then we'll continue with Saxon and Mr. Reed's personalized plan. Sorry I can't give specifics, but he asked that I not share with others because this is a very specific case. Unfortunately, the closest Kumon is an hour from here, so that is only a last resort option. I will also probably get the Lial book. Thank you all for your insight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Can you call Kumon and ask for tutor references? They might be able to take private students in their spare time. An hour is a long way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyWJ Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Can you call Kumon and ask for tutor references? They might be able to take private students in their spare time. An hour is a long way! Yes! That's a great idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 If there's any sort of community college near you, you might look in to taking the math there. A good community college will have tutors available in addition to help from the teacher. In the long run it might not only be cheaper, but better, seeing as there would be more tutors to choose from in case one didn't make sense. They'd also have a placement test that would get him into the right class. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'd also keep in mind that some kids just figure out math later than "average". You can throw math at them until you're blue in the face, but it just won't click until it clicks. Definitely keep him trying, but it may not be his fault or your fault or the fault of the curriculum. There's a certain amount of brain maturation that occurs even in the late teen years. I sometimes wonder if we teach higher math too early for most kids. Some kids can do it early and get labelled math geniuses, while the rest of them wonder what's wrong with them, figure they'll never be any good at math, and just give up on any field that might require it. In my dept (physics) we often have freshman coming in who only managed to complete Alg 2. And maybe not even very well. A lot of them figure out the math in college and go on to grad school in physics and other fields, or working in industry in jobs that require a lot of math. Struggling with algebra in high school doesn't have to be the end of any hope of going on in a mathy field. We also have a lot of kids who do calc in high school, so it's not as if we're a "college of the stupid" as some might assume. We just accept late bloomers and work with them where they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Another thing I've seen -- it's one thing to study for the ACT. That's kind of abstract as to what that will get you. But if you tell a kid that a placement test will get them out of THIS class, it's often amazing what a kid can do in learning the material. If there's a more concrete carrot in front of them, they may finally get it. And oftentimes, colleges will provide study materials for their placement tests. And it's hard to know if the student really doesn't know the material or just doesn't know that they know it. Also, if a student only kind of knows the material, it often is just fine to have them redo it in a classroom setting. At the very least, it will be good review. It may be an easy A when their other classes are hard and they could really use an easy A. I advised my 2nd daughter to just go take calc from the beginning, even though she certainly could have placed out of the first semester. She now KNOWS that material. And is really pleased with her knowledge. She did not regret repeating it. The second time through, when you're not struggling to get down the basics, you learn a lot more about how it all works. She then went on to calc 2 with a solid foundation and didn't find it too difficult. Her friend chose to skip the first semester of calc in college and ended up really struggling in calc 2. It probably brought down her other grades as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 We also found the Khan lectures to be pretty confusing. The practice problems, however, are a lot better than the lectures. The problem is knowing which problems to do when. And what to do if you get stuck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I quickly scanned the replies, so please excuse if any of this is a repeat. I would not use the ACT math score as an indicator of math ability. Like all sections of the ACT, the math section relies on reasoning. We worked with a test prep service this year that has coached 7th and 8th graders, who have not even taken the "required" math, to high scores. I know I am sounding like a broken record, but I would get in touch with the owner of Tablet Class math and discuss the situation with him. His courses are excellent, and he knows how to put together a plan that fills in gaps and moves the student forward. The combination of TC lessons and online tutoring from Mr. Zimmerman have brought dd from math confusion/struggling to competency and interest. Fwiw, we used BJU, Math Relief, Kumon, and Saxon prior to TC. Although I respect Art Reed, I would not use Saxon, and I would not use Kumon in your situation. Feel free to pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teeterbunch Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Thank you to those who posted about late bloomers with math. I appreciate that perspective and will definitely communicate that to my son. He was a late bloomer physically, and I suspect that might be what is going on here as well. With him being my oldest, I am happy to hear from those who can see beyond 11th grade. : ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamakelly Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 During my sons senior year, I hired a tutor to help him in math. The guy that tutored him was a Jr. in college. It made a huge difference, and Bryce passed the college math entrance exams. HE really liked working with a college student. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 My son has used MUS all the way through and made A's. He got to Precalculus and bombed. . . I wonder if one of the issues with MUS is that the tests are multiple choice? I've decided that the difference between students (how they learn, etc.) is greater than the difference in textbooks/programs. My daughter used MUS, starting with the original version of Foundations, Intermediate, and Advanced, and then using the high school programs through pre-calculus. We didn't even use the tests at all but did incorporate the honors pages. She took precalculus algebra and precalculus trigonometry as dual enrollment at the CC this last year and got a high A both semesters. She found it easy after the foundation she got with MUS. For the OP, I just want to reiterate that having someone work one-on-one in math with a struggling student is critical. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.