LucyStoner Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 OK I don't really care about sex organs that don't have any function as far as contributing to society. But arms and legs? No.Raise your hand if sex organs aren't how you came into this world. Anyone? Anyone here at all? I would say sex organs contribute to society more than a little. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah CB Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 Raise your hand if sex organs aren't how you came into this world at all. Anyone? Anyone here at all? I would say sex organs contribute to society more than a little. Frankly, I think I'd rather lose my leg than my sex organs any day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 No - I disagree. I guess I'd liken it more to walking off a cliff, rather than a slippery slope. I think if we take that first step (which we already have) then we can't really argue with those who assert their right to need the same thing - regardless of the "why" behind it. This assumes all arguments are equally credible and persuasive. It also assumes certain behaviors shouldn't be elective. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBlossom Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Raise your hand if sex organs aren't how you came into this world. Anyone? Anyone here at all? I would say sex organs contribute to society more than a little. I thought she was referring to circumcision, because that is cutting off a healthy body part. But, obviously, most of our country doesn't seem to have a problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 I thought she was referring to circumcision, because that is cutting off a healthy body part. But, obviously, most of our country doesn't seem to have a problem with that. Foreskin isn't an organ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Frankly, I think the article (and the thread) are just a way to take a crude and cheap shot at Jenner. Ugly tactics. Bill 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Absolutely - and that brings us to legalized euthanasia as well. In places where it is legal, why shouldn't anyone be able to take advantage of it? Why is one person's illness more important or serious than someone else's? Shouldn't the person who wants to be euthanized be able to do so if they feel like staying alive is more terrible than dying? The problem with that is that many suicidal people are mentally ill and need someone to help them through a rough time, not someone to help them end it. There are people who are too ill to actually kill themselves in a reasonable manner, even if they wanted to. Most people, if they really want to die, can just throw themselves off a cliff or something. Not everyone can do that, e.g. if you're bedridden. Obviously, you could just refuse to eat & drink anything, which my grandfather with dementia did. Dying from dehydration is supposedly very painful though (his doctor gave him a bunch of morphine to cope with the pain). Incidentally, that was in NL, where euthanasia is legal - not sure why euthanasia wasn't used, though I'm guessing some combination of religious and bureaucratic reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I read an article about this a long time ago - well over a decade ago - and the disturbingness of it all has stayed with me - both the disturbing nature of of the idea of removing a limb and the disturbing idea that you could think your limb was alien to you. The focus of the article I read was about whether or not there's a relationship between naming a disorder the rise of that disorder - does naming it help people who have always been suffering from it or does it case the disorder to become more widespread? It was an interesting article... I wish I could remember where I read it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 http://www.firstthings.com/index.php?permalink=article&entry_permalink=2004/11/surgical-sex Was it this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 http://www.firstthings.com/index.php?permalink=article&entry_permalink=2004/11/surgical-sex Was it this one? No... the article I read was specifically about "transabled" (though I'm pretty sure it did not use that term - it had some other clinical one) and, IIRC, didn't discuss transgendered issues much if at all. One of the other examples they talked about was repressed memories and whether more people had them once therapists were looking for them because they genuinely had them or because therapists were looking for them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah CB Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 Frankly, I think the article (and the thread) are just a way to take a crude and cheap shot at Jenner. Ugly tactics. Bill Not at all - at least not my posts. I have no idea if that was the secret ulterior motive of the author of the article. I found the idea of transabled very interesting. It was something I'd never heard of before. Perhaps a time will come when people can talk openly about transabled issues without being accused of ugly tactics. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Not at all - at least not my posts. I have no idea if that was the secret ulterior motive of the author of the article. I found the idea of transabled very interesting. It was something I'd never heard of before. Perhaps a time will come when people can talk openly about transabled issues without being accused of ugly tactics. FWIW, I didn't think you started this thread to take a "crude and cheap shot at Jenner" at all, Sarah. :) 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJosMom Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Not at all - at least not my posts. I have no idea if that was the secret ulterior motive of the author of the article. I found the idea of transabled very interesting. It was something I'd never heard of before. Perhaps a time will come when people can talk openly about transabled issues without being accused of ugly tactics. I think the accusation of "ugly tactics" is simply a cowardly, sideways attempt at "shut up." Not just in this thread, but in many conversations people do not wish to have. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I think the accusation of "ugly tactics" is simply a cowardly, sideways attempt at "shut up." Not just in this thread, but in many conversations people do not wish to have.I thought we should pat one another on the back for keeping these recent threads so civil and respectful. By Internet opinion airing standards we're positively polite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Not at all - at least not my posts. I have no idea if that was the secret ulterior motive of the author of the article. I found the idea of transabled very interesting. It was something I'd never heard of before. Perhaps a time will come when people can talk openly about transabled issues without being accused of ugly tactics. And I don't think you'd have heard of it if a media outlet hadn't timed the story on "transabled" people to collide with Jenner's story in a type of "click-bait" designed to appeal to those who say "what's next people marrying dogs?" when gay marriage equality comes up. Can't you see that? Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I agree that the issue is probably being raised as a result of Jenner's publicity... but by both sides, I think? And does that mean there aren't real issues there? I honestly don't know how I feel about it... but I did find the 15 year old article I read about it so long ago. So fascinating how language and attitudes change. The term the author uses in the article is "wannabes" - as in disabled wannabes. I'm pretty sure "transabled" had not been coined. But still really interesting shift there. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momacacia Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I read an article about this a long time ago - well over a decade ago - and the disturbingness of it all has stayed with me - both the disturbing nature of of the idea of removing a limb and the disturbing idea that you could think your limb was alien to you.I have to say that when I first read about transsexual surgery, in a legal context, 10+ years ago it struck me very much the same way. The transabled issues was already being discussed then as well. It was the nature of the rejection of their body and the actual physical disabling that took place as part of the surgery that was so disturbing and sad to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 It may be that transabled individuals have something going on with their body maps in their brains. V.S. Ramachandran at UC San Diego has studied the connection between phantom limbs and brain body maps extensively, and if IIRC, he has also written about transableism. Ramachandran was able to devise methods of dealing with pain felt in phantom limbs. Studying transableism could lead to better understanding and possibly methods of treatment. I imagine it must be very difficult to experience transableism day in and day out. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah CB Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 And I don't think you'd have heard of it if a media outlet hadn't timed the story on "transabled" people to collide with Jenner's story in a type of "click-bait" designed to appeal to those who say "what's next people marrying dogs?" when gay marriage equality comes up. Can't you see that? Bill Even if that was the motive of the author, I thought it was a very interesting perspective to consider. And perhaps it wasn't put out there for all those "what next?" people, but instead to give hope or open doors to those who feel they are next. Next to be accepted for who they are. Who knows? That's what makes it so interesting. Maybe therapy can work to make transabled people feel normal in their whole bodies. Maybe it works for some people but not others. I don't know. Maybe amputation/blindness/leg braces or whatever is the only thing that will make them feel whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah CB Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 I agree that the issue is probably being raised as a result of Jenner's publicity... but by both sides, I think? And does that mean there aren't real issues there? I honestly don't know how I feel about it... but I did find the 15 year old article I read about it so long ago. So fascinating how language and attitudes change. The term the author uses in the article is "wannabes" - as in disabled wannabes. I'm pretty sure "transabled" had not been coined. But still really interesting shift there. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/ That was very interesting! I thought the passage below was fascinating. Even with something that seems (to me) as "out there" as transabled, I think they'd have a hard time using the term "wannabes" today. "Like Robert Smith, I have been struck by the way wannabes use the language of identity and selfhood in describing their desire to lose a limb. "I have always felt I should be an amputee." "I felt, this is who I was." "It is a desire to see myself, be myself, as I 'know' or 'feel' myself to be." This kind of language has persuaded many clinicians that apotemnophilia has been misnamed—that it is not a problem of sexual desire, as the -philia suggests, but a problem of body image. What true apotemnophiles share, Smith said in the BBC documentary, is the feeling "that their body is incomplete with their normal complement of four limbs." Smith has elsewhere speculated that apotemnophilia is not a psychiatric disorder but a neuropsychological one, with biological roots. Perhaps it has less to do with desire than with being stuck in the wrong body." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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