Squawky Acres Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 As my first and second graders finish Saxon 2, we are making a switch to a more conceptual math approach this spring. I decided on RightStart Math, with the goal of beginning Beast Academy when each student is ready (I'm hoping to start that some time late next year). Although the kids "tested" into RightStart Level C, I decided to get Level B and just go through it quickly to acclimate everyone to the new style and work on mental math and their understanding of place value and multi-digit addition. I am so excited and enthusiastic about this switch, and know they will love playing math games and not having so many worksheets, but they shocked me after the first few lessons by saying that they HATE RightStart. The "Yellow is the Sun" song did not go over well. They made up new words: "Yellow is the sun. This is not much fun. Why is the sky so blue? It makes us cry 'boo-hoo,' etc." I'm thinking that I may have gone back too far, or maybe I made a mistake in my presentation. How do you transition kids to a new curriculum? How do you communicate to young kids the importance of review so that you can firm up skills and get on to the fun stuff? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 As How do you transition kids to a new curriculum? How do you communicate to young kids the importance of review so that you can firm up skills and get on to the fun stuff? I don't "transition" my kids. If I chose to use a different curriculum, I just started the new curriculum when we had finished the old (or the part of the old I wanted to finish). With 1st and 2nd graders, I would not enter any discussion about the merits of the new curriculum, because I do not think children this young have the insight to discern my curriculum choices. (I do have such discussions with my high school age students) I do not "communicate the importance of review" either. We review when I see that it is necessary (as in: "hey, I can see that you don't remember how to do xyz. Before we go on with this new stuff, we need to work a few problems so that you can remember"). And I do a general review before the test at the end of the semester. I know what my kids have mastered in math and make sure not to impose busywork that they may not need. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Hm.. That is a tough one. I'd probably keep trying to see if they get into it more. It's hard to say if they outright don't like the new style or that they simply don't like change in general. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 ETA: Can it be that they really dislike the songs? My kids would not have found them enjoyable or fun, but simply dumb. Yellow is the sun... no, that one would not have gone over well in our house. Mine always preferred their math (and everything else) straight with no games and frills and extras. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa in the UP of MI Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 The beginning of level B is probably too easy. Are they bored? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I had to make a few adjustments when I switched my dc from Singapore Math to Saxon. It's not that easy to find the exact right place to start and the right pace to set. It takes some time. Maybe some of the material isn't a great fit for the oldest, but is just right for the younger ones. (I did look at that rhyme in the sample on-line, and it looked kind of "babish" for an 8 year old. I like your dc's humour and creativity in finding new rhymes.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squawky Acres Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 Regentrude - Yes, we did stop it with the song after the first lesson. I think it is for younger children. My pre-K daughter and 3-year-old love it! My older kids were rolling their eyes. I think I need to spend some more time in the material to make sure I cut out everything that is too young and basic for them and just focus on the skills I want them to have before we begin Level C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Yeah I have one who likes songs, crafts, glittery, and shiny stuff. The other...nope. It's odd though because there have been times when my kid would complain about something we were doing. Every day...he'd complain. So I'd find something else and he'd be upset with me that I changed it! I don't get it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I'd tell them to shove their objections before I break out the boring worksheets. Seriously, they can live through one day of the song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Regentrude - Yes, we did stop it with the song after the first lesson. I think it is for younger children. My pre-K daughter and 3-year-old love it! My older kids were rolling their eyes. I think I need to spend some more time in the material to make sure I cut out everything that is too young and basic for them and just focus on the skills I want them to have before we begin Level C. It might be personalities, too. My eight year old and six year old LOVE singing all the songs. They're join in even when it isn't their lesson. But they don't think it's a baby activity, they know it serves the purposes of making their ten facts easier to remember. Level C does review for the first, gosh, third of the book? It's pretty easy and a gradual ramp up. I think starting with B isn't a bad idea of course, but it might just be too simple for them. Doing level C and the transition lessons instead might be a better fit :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momto4inSoCal Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I don't think anything would get my kids exited about math. We switched from MUS and Saxon to MM this year and although my kids have learned so much and have done really good they still don't like it. I am exited to see their grown and to watch them do complicated math problems mentally they just see it as something they have to do. I explained why we were switching and just did it. I think your idea of focusing on the skills you want to work on rather than going over everything will be better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mama27 Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 The "Yellow is the Sun" song did not go over well. They made up new words: "Yellow is the sun. This is not much fun. Why is the sky so blue? It makes us cry 'boo-hoo,' etc." LOL!!!!!! That's actually awesome! Maybe they just want to get the math done and not lay games and stuff. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverMoon Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I'm afraid my approach would best be described as "Suck it up, Buttercup." Not knowing anything about Rightstart, my first impression from your post would be to condense redundant material, double-up where feasible, and get through the introductory material faster. I'd keep this quicker pace until it was obvious they needed to slow down. I would commiserate with them if they felt the review was redundant, but I would not be trying to explain why I feel it's important. If I felt it was redundant we'd be skipping it in a heartbeat. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squawky Acres Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 The beginning of level B is probably too easy. Are they bored? I think this could be it. The beginning of Level B (2nd ed.) is a review of A and an introduction to the RightStart way of doing things. It is far too easy, and yet they still do need to learn the abacus and the way the program works. They already know all of their addition and subtraction facts from Saxon and ReflexMath, and have done place value and multi-digit addition and subtraction -- just not with the level of understanding and mastery I would like (they are not able to do multi-digit addition as mental math). Maybe Level C is a better starting point for us and will have enough review? I just really want them to "start out" with a conceptual math program, and have heard that one must really do Level B to get the benefits of the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squawky Acres Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 LOL!!!!!! That's actually awesome! Maybe they just want to get the math done and not lay games and stuff. Oh, you have no idea . . . my life is just one big Gilbert & Sullivan musical over here. Other memorable lyrics include an ode to their baby brother: "Although your nose is runny/ We think you're cute and funny/ Oh you're the best baby in the wooooorld!" 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squawky Acres Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 It might be personalities, too. My eight year old and six year old LOVE singing all the songs. They're join in even when it isn't their lesson. But they don't think it's a baby activity, they know it serves the purposes of making their ten facts easier to remember. Level C does review for the first, gosh, third of the book? It's pretty easy and a gradual ramp up. I think starting with B isn't a bad idea of course, but it might just be too simple for them. Doing level C and the transition lessons instead might be a better fit :) That is a good suggestion. Are you talking about the 2nd edition Level C? I was thinking of ordering that just so that I can take a look and determine whether it would be a better starting point for us. The consultants on the phone did tell me that this would be a better level for us. I just didn't listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I'd split them up. I'd have the second grader do Level C and the first grader whip through Level B at whatever rate appropriate. I condense Rightstart liberally where needed, and to be honest I never look at it ahead, I just do it on the fly. I skim text pretty fast though, so if you prefer to see everything clearly yes, you'd need to read ahead. One example of where I condensed it--in Level B, they do time. And introduce it I *think* to the minute, in the very last lesson on it (as opposed to the nearest 5 minutes...) Then time came around in Level C, and we were teaching reading to the minute for...three days. Except that my child was *already* reading to the minute before Level C got to it, so I think we did 5 days in one... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyGF Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 When we've made math curriculum changes, I've often placed my ds too low, thinking it'll help him transition. Instead, he rebels and hates it. Step it up, as PP said. Emily 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 That is a good suggestion. Are you talking about the 2nd edition Level C? I was thinking of ordering that just so that I can take a look and determine whether it would be a better starting point for us. The consultants on the phone did tell me that this would be a better level for us. I just didn't listen. I only have the first edition. But really, they're not that different. The gray book is transition lessons, and if you'd like a copy please PM me as I have the book and have no use for it :). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 We never used the song, even though I started with a young child. You can certainly do RS without it. Honestly, if they tested into C, I would get C. We're about to move from B directly into C (no summer break) and the majority of the first 50 lessons are review. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I am not familiar with the program at all, the financial sacrifices your family made to provide it for your children, or the work you put into researching the best math program for them, so please take my suggestion with a grain of salt: Is there any way you could go with it and camp it up with them? That's what ds and I are doing with Shurley Grammar and we're having a blast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 My ds hated RS. Also to the extent that an abacus helped, the Soroban type seemed to make more sense than the type that came from RS. The only math he has found fun that I am aware of was Beast Academy and Balance Math/Balance Benders. Otherwise he would just as soon go for a straightforward get it done sort of program and then go do things he really does find fun. It took a while for me to stop trying to make school "fun." It wasn't my presentation, it was more that I have... I dunno, a Finland education type kid, who would like his school work kept short and to the point with plenty of movement type breaks. And then he learns a lot beyond that in an "unschool" sort of way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El... Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I just have to say, though I have to suggestions on the math, your kids are seriously funny little poets! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Oh, you have no idea . . . my life is just one big Gilbert & Sullivan musical over here. Other memorable lyrics include an ode to their baby brother: "Although your nose is runny/ We think you're cute and funny/ Oh you're the best baby in the wooooorld!" Knowing the song, I'm afraid I'm going to have your children's version stuck in my head for the rest of the night. That is hilarious--and very true to the rhythm! I can see how they were turned off by the easy intro lessons, but you're right that there's some useful concepts that they could use some exposure to as they transition mentally from Saxon. The spiral approach makes it tough to compact, but it's definitely do-able. I'm assuming that your kids are familiar with the addition facts (but perhaps are not totally solid on them?) and are familiar with multi-digit addition (but could use some conceptual reinforcement?) If so, taking a look at my first edition level B, I think I would go in this order. Stage 1: learning how useful side 1 of the abacus is for math facts and mental addition: -Facts with 9, lesson 61-62 (In fact, this lesson might be a good intro to side 1 of the abacus, since it shows how useful the abacus can be for these facts.) -Two-fives strategy, lesson 66-67 (again, another good one for demonstrating the use of the abacus) -Facts with 8s, lesson 69-70 -Mental math with two-digit numbers, lessons 73-75 Stage 2: learning how math games can be both challenging and fun: On the Number game, lesson 77 Rows and Columns, lesson 79 Corners Game, lesson 60 Stage 3: learning how to use side 2 of the abacus and reinforce conceptual understanding of addition: Trading with the Base-10 pictures, lesson 34 The sequence of adding four-digit numbers on the abacus, lessons 39-40 Days in a year and dishes in the cupborad, lesson 47 More place value and adding four-digit numbers, lessons 89-91 Obviously, these are just suggestions--you know your kids' needs much better than I do! You could add in some of the geometry and measurement if you want, too. It's all way out of order from the way Joan Cotter intended it, but I think it might make more sense in your situation. RightStart is a wonderful curriculum. (My many superlatives about how wonderful it is are here.) Hopefully your kids will someday match your enthusiasm. But either way, they're pretty fortunate to have a mom who's so excited about math. :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutingmom Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 You should get the transition lessons and do them to go into Level C. (That said, I do edition 1.... if you need to do edition 2 I'm not sure how that works - if the transition lessons are the same or not.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmerRex Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I do not know this program, but I admit that it has never been my wish to please my kids with the choices I make for them about their health or education. I do not make important choices for them on a whim. If I can tell that my choice was a good choice--whether they like it or not--we go with my choice and if they have a problem they can tell the psycho-therapist person when they are all grown up. I'm a thoughtful mom, but not a nice mom. Sorry to first poster but I do not reason with my kids about whether they should do as I say. I do not try to convince them of the importance of review--if they need to review, then they review. If they resist, I just make them do it anyway. I try to be clear and easy to understand when I present new material, I keep them engaged by asking them questions, having them repeat important parts, asking them to explain certain steps, asking them to help me with the example and giving them a similar problem to teach back, but that is all. I do not use lots of fun toys and engaging songs. They can use toys or sing if they want to, it is not something that I do though. The study desk is not a market, it is not the place for bartering. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squawky Acres Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Thank you for the very specific compacting suggestions for level B. I was looking through my books this evening, and think there are some concepts I want to cover anyway. I don't mind seriously compacting Level B, and would be happy to start on C earlier. I will order it soon just to be able to compare. I do hate to put my second grader back into a first grade program, but she is actually the one who needs the most conceptual reinforcement; and I think early attention to this foundation will help us accelerate later. My first grader is the one who hates the review the most. Most things come very quickly to him, and he is always angling to skip the grammar stage of any new activity. For example, he was insulted by the beginning piano book I got him and told me that "Stepping Up, Stepping Down, Then a Skip" was "too stupid to play." He heard someone playing Beethoven and decided he liked that a lot better; so he sits at the piano with the sheet music and half reads and half sounds it all out to play a halting but accurate version of Fur Elise. Certainly I can just tell him that review and foundational skills are important, but I also need him to be invested in the concept. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 My first grader is the one who hates the review the most. Most things come very quickly to him, and he is always angling to skip the grammar stage of any new activity. My eight-year-old is very similar. He hates practicing foundational skills and wants to get straight to the more interesting part. For him, I explain my reasons with a smile, discuss it briefly, and then move on to getting the work done, since I know he's already decided that he doesn't like it and he'll only try to negotiate his way out of it. Moving to CLE language arts a few months ago precipitated quite a tantrum, but once he realized he was stuck with it, he acclimated just fine and now gets the work done without arguing. On the plus side, your first grader will likely love Beast Academy once he gets to it. And I figure this creative thinking and ability to negotiate will be very useful skills down the road, as long as they don't drive me crazy in the mean time. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squawky Acres Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 My eight-year-old is very similar. He hates practicing foundational skills and wants to get straight to the more interesting part. For him, I explain my reasons with a smile, discuss it briefly, and then move on to getting the work done, since I know he's already decided that he doesn't like it and he'll only try to negotiate his way out of it. Moving to CLE language arts a few months ago precipitated quite a tantrum, but once he realized he was stuck with it, he acclimated just fine and now gets the work done without arguing. On the plus side, your first grader will likely love Beast Academy once he gets to it. And I figure this creative thinking and ability to negotiate will be very useful skills down the road, as long as they don't drive me crazy in the mean time. :) Apparently, I was the same way. My mother was constantly exasperated by what I was able to talk myself out of at school (busywork, homework, anything I found boring and didn't feel like doing). She would tell the teacher at conferences: "I know she sounds very reasonable, but she is only NINE. You don't have to listen to her . . ." They always joked that I would become an attorney, and I actually did. I'm retired now, but one would think I would be better at negotiating with (or just using a parental veto with) my little lawyers-in-training. I am looking forward to giving my kids some more challenge in math. Beast Academy sounds perfect for us -- once we get the basics down. I try to explain to them that although you can plunk out Beethoven . . . sort of . . . without practicing your scales and beginning piano pieces, you will never play it well without laying the proper foundation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 My ds says Beast Academy teaches all you need to know of the "basics" starting at whatever level it now exists for. As soon as ready for grade 3 or whatever it now starts at, you can go straight to it, no need to do something else and consider it a later supplement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squawky Acres Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Pen, that's an interesting point. I would love to move straight to BA. I took a look at the placement test, and do not think my children would place into it after completing Saxon 2. They do not have a solid understanding of place value, and are not easily adding and subtracting multi-digit numbers. Strangely, they are just great with multiplication! For some reason, that made a lot more sense to them. We do have twenty more lessons to complete in Saxon 2, so plenty of extra time to practice; but I just do not see the ease and fluidity I would like to see. We hope to begin Beast Academy as our primary program when they are ready some time next year. I just think an intermediate step is needed between Saxon 2 and Beast 3A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Apparently, I was the same way. My mother was constantly exasperated by what I was able to talk myself out of at school (busywork, homework, anything I found boring and didn't feel like doing). She would tell the teacher at conferences: "I know she sounds very reasonable, but she is only NINE. You don't have to listen to her . . ." They always joked that I would become an attorney, and I actually did. I'm retired now, but one would think I would be better at negotiating with (or just using a parental veto with) my little lawyers-in-training. Apples haven't fallen far from trees here, either. :) I've had to ban outright any question that begins with "Why can't we...?" because I've decided I don't have the energy to list every single reason we can't do activity xyz right now, buy item abc from the grocery store, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexi Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I choose curriculum with my kids in mind. But I still make the call. I add in review when I think it's needed. It's not really up for debate. But when they hate my choice....wow. It's tough. With RS can you move through the lessons more quickly? And totally skip the song. My kids don't like it either. I'm sorry they are not enjoying it so far. Can you try to give it more time? Some of the RS lessons seem silly but they are teaching concepts that will be built on in later lessons. I've also had to accept that my oldest will complain about anything that isn't her idea. So that means she complains about all of school. Sigh. It's so tiresome for me. I like RS too and I'm excited about it. It's frustrating to be met with groans when I'm doing my absolute best to make it engaging. Basically I have no real advice, just commiseration. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutingmom Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I know you have already started.... and I've commented once - but I have to say I think the main problem is starting at too early a level instead of using the transition lessons. When I transitioned into RightStart, I was eager to start but had to wait until I could get the program. I spent some of my time doing research etc. I actually made a couple of hand-made RightStart abacuses. We played a couple of the games with regular math cards (Go to the Dump and Addition War, if I remember Correctly.) And I did start teaching the younger kids 'Yellow is the Sun' (not the 2 that were going to start RightStart, but my then 3 yo (and the 1yo heard it...)) We did this instead of math lessons. My kids were thrilled that their math was going to include games (I did let them know it wasn't going to be just the games...) My kids did actually place into level B. My son (8 at the time) did roll his eyes at the early lessons (my 6yo not so much, even though she was finished a different 'grade 1' math program...) - but I did explain that I knew it was easy for him but it was to practice the abacus and how a few things were done. I know we did more than one lesson at a time for a bit. And then we got to the lessons that were at about the right level of difficulty and it has been pretty great ever since. Oh, there have been days when they don't love math... there have been days when I've been on the phone to RightStart for advice on what to do. (They are great on the phone btw.... they would probably get a kick out of your kids' new lyrics, but would probably have suggestions too). So - what I'd do.... I'd get the transition lessons and move up to level C. Or at least go through level B very very quickly. I'd play the games at the level that your kids are at. And let them get used to it. It really sounds that they are kicking back because it seems too easy and 'babyish' for them. btw - being able to visualize quantities on the abacus in various ways is important, and I'm amazed at the differences in this with my kids. Multiplication is taught by putting the beads on the abacus. My 11yo in level D (Who did a different program until age 8 then started at level B) tends to want to 'give-and-take' or 'trade' the beads to find the answer.... he CAN see the groupings if kind of made to. My 9yo in level D (who did a different math program then started at level B at age 6), sometimes wants to trade, but can see the groupings easier and usually does it that way. My 6yo who started RightStart at level A, and is currently in level C and is just starting multiplication can just see the answer on the abacus. It is right there - no problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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