mamabear2three Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I feel like I'm ruining math for my daughter, and don't know what to do. Please don't laugh at my math journey and take pity on the poor mom who just wants to provide a solid math background for her daughter without losing her mind!! Last year (K) - we started with MEP 1, I loved it. my daughter tolerated it. We hit a wall with memorizing addition facts and put the house on the market in Feb. so I needed something simpler... I tried Math Mammoth and it was a colossal failure. so after some research I bought McRuffy Math grade 1. McRuffy math was FUN and EASY. She loved the manipulatives and found everything we were doing super easy. After a couple months, I went through and gave her all the tests and quizzes and found that she knew almost everything in the grade one book already. I tried going back to Math Mammoth, only giving her a few things to do in each page and she was still overwhelmed with the amount of stuff on the page and would shut down. Then the house sold in May so school was over for the year as we got packed up and moved. This year (1st) - I tried Math Mammoth again, using pretests, and finally gave up again, she just can't stand it and it wasn't worth tears every single day. So we started with Horizons 2, and I pretested her through - we finished the first half of second grade in just a couple months. Horizons was an easy way for me to ensure she knew the concepts, is colorful, and the repetitive drill killed her. She didn't need that much practice. So I supplemented it with Beast 3A, to test the waters and see how well she could handle it - she loved the first chapter on shapes but when we got to skip counting it was obvious that she wasn't mature enough to face the challenge, and I tried going back to Horizons. We finished Horizons 2B and started 3A when she was just so sick of the repetition, even with me modifying each lesson, that I knew I needed to make another change. But going back to Beast didn't sound like a solution so I got out MEP again. MEP 2a was a breath of fresh air for both of us... for a while. She flew through all of the review, enjoying the different approach to math, and now we are stuck again on lesson 64. Each day is a fight, she can do the work but it is difficult, it makes her think and she doesn't like to work hard. She has asked to go back to McRuffy because that was "fun math". I'm frustrated - I like MEP, but don't want to fight over math every day! But I feel like McRuffy is just so expensive for how easy it is and I don't have any idea what level to purchase if I were to go that route! Please have pity on me and make a suggestion that will make math fun and beneficial all at the same time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go_go_gadget Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 It sounds like Miquon would be perfect for her. It's deceptively deep, but it's very gentle visually and uses manipulatives throughout. I'd start from the beginning, and there would be some review and some new material. It's a grade 1-3 program, but while it covers all traditional 1-3 topics, it also covers some topics (exponents and long division, among others) not traditionally covered at those levels. I think the entire program, including c-rods, is $100 or under. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonflyer Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I am a bit confused. You say she is through a 2nd grade math book, but not mature enough for skip counting? Has she mastered her addition and subtraction facts (from 0-9, each fact should be done in <3 seconds)? Can she read a clock? Can she count change? How is she at measuring things in length and weights? Can she skip count by 10s? 5s? 2s? 3s? At some point "review" must be done until facts are automatic. If she lacks that foundation, she will hit a wall in math. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five More Minutes Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I've used BA, a bit of MM, and dabbled with MEP. They are all fantastic! I'm not familiar with the others you've mentioned. MM is excellent, but my daughter balked at the busy pages. I ended up using Singapore Standards, which had the challenge level of MM but used manipulatives and colourful, cute pictures for teaching. Workbook pages had a lot more white space, which made a difference for my dd. I love the concrete - pictorial - abstract approach to teaching. It might be worth a look -- it could strike that sweet spot of challenge plus fun. I hear you on the maturity needed for Beast! Accepting the struggle has been a lesson all in itself, and not one my dd was prepared for until she was 8 years old. ETA: I agree with the Miquon recommendation. We loved Miquon here! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Journeys Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 She sounds like a perfect Singapore candidate. I use standards as well. You can use manipulatives she loves, there's review, but not overkill and easily skipped. I can't get past the busy MM pages to even attempt teaching it, so I can imagine the frustration for a kiddo. I imagine you'd need to do a placement test, as the scope and sequence is different. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamabear2three Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 I am a bit confused. You say she is through a 2nd grade math book, but not mature enough for skip counting? Yes, but if you haven't looked at the skip counting chapter in Beast 3A, it's not normal skip counting - the problems even made my head hurt! Has she mastered her addition and subtraction facts (from 0-9, each fact should be done in <3 seconds)? She has ADHD so she can't run through her math facts in <3 seconds but she is firm and solid on her addition and subtraction 0-10. She is also proficient at solving 2 and 3 digit by 2 and 3 digit addition and subtraction (with carrying and borrowing) using the traditional algorithm. Can she read a clock? Yes. She can't read it quickly yet but she can read it accurately within 10-20 seconds. Can she count change? Yes. How is she at measuring things in length and weights? She has no problems with these types of problems. Can she skip count by 10s? 5s? 2s? 3s? yes. At some point "review" must be done until facts are automatic. If she lacks that foundation, she will hit a wall in math. The wall she is hitting is the mental math - she is being asked to solve 2 digit by 2 digit addition and subtraction in her head by using several smaller steps (strategy taught in MEP) and the mental manipulation of the numbers is difficult for her, probably in part due to the ADHD which makes it difficult to keep things in her head. But even writing out each step doesn't seem to help her. I am wondering if I need to use something that has a lot of manipulatives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamabear2three Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 I've tried to figure out how to teach miquon and I can't figure it out :( Maybe I need to redouble my efforts there and get it figured out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five More Minutes Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I've tried to figure out how to teach miquon and I can't figure it out :( Maybe I need to redouble my efforts there and get it figured out. If you're wanting to try Miquon again, have you seen Education Unboxed? There are a lot of free videos there that demonstrate to you as a parent/teacher how to use c-rods to introduce concepts and support them. Everything is based on Miquon. If you think your dd wants to use more manipulatives, this might be a way forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmarm Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Sorry, I missed the part where you said that she was ADHD. I am going to leave my reply largely unchanged in case there is something here that you--or someone else--can use. I feel like I'm ruining math for my daughter, and don't know what to do. Stop. Right now, just...stop. No one is going to die if you don't drag your 6yo kid through a math book for several minutes M-F. I promise. There is no need to create and cultivate stress and distress where there was none to begin with. Math phobia is learned young and nurtured for years on end in the K-12 school system in this country and then we wonder why US students wont study math or STEM disciplines when they are older. Its because we spent the better part of 13 years helping them to associate anxiety and frustration with the word "math". I would take a formal break from math for at least 2 weeks but probably closer to 4. During this time, I would try to organize my own thoughts about mathematics. Do a bit of soul-searching, if you will. How do you feel about math? What is your attitude about math? What was your attitude toward math when you were little? If you liked it, why? If you didn't like it, why? Now ask your self, why do you like MEP so much and what is about this program that draws you in? If I were you, I would read through and work through MEP 1, 2 and possibly 3 myself to get an understanding of the scope and sequence and keep some notes about what I loved and why--is math finally "clicking" for you by studying from the MEP manuals/workbooks, mom? If so that is fantastic! The best thing that a parent can do to instill a respect or tolerance (if not love) of mathematics in their children is to develop themselves mathematically. Its the same thing for reading or language. Cultivate your own passion, work on your own skills and share that passion and progress with your kids--let them see you discouraged or struggling. Let them see you frustrated during the really, really hard parts and talk with them about how you channel and express your frustration but you are so interested in X that you will try again tomorrow or next week. The best thing that you can do for your child in the early elementary years is to study, understand and practice new skills or subjects yourself so that you can be a better teacher and role model for your child. Since we are talking about math in this instance then I suggest that you study some math yourself during this math detox period and while you are doing this, Observe and discuss where math is taking place in real life with your kid--here is a quick list of ideas. Get and use face clocks (skip counting, numbers 1-60, regrouping seconds to minutes, minutes to hours.) handle cash with your kids. (base 10) Talk about money and pre-plan your shopping (quantity and planning.) comment about budgeting estimate in the store use a calendar when talking about schedules or ordering things online and comparing shipping options estimate tips at restaurants save money for a family outing in jar or pouch where kids can SEE the money accumulating and check how much you need vs how much you have play card and board games that require counting. read "math" story books/living math books with your kids cook and bake WITH your kids count, measure and weigh ingredients in the store (produce section is a gold mind for this.) teach your kids to read fractions on measuring utensils compare and contrast everything you can observe math in your story books and literature type reading put number lines and 100 charts on the walls teach your kids to count forwards and backwards when washing their hands after using the bathroom (we go to 20, but you can use 50) teach kids to skip count forward and backwards Most people read at bed time, do flashcards at bedtime as well talk about distance and time as you drive observe speed limits let your kids time stop-lights as you drive talk about how the timing for the lights change during peak times of the day monitor the temperature of rooms/foods as they sit out and thaw track the weather make a word wall and use math words on your wall if you garden or have a seedling box, measure and track growth of plants Please don't laugh at my math journey and take pity on the poor mom who just wants to provide a solid math background for her daughter without losing her mind!! Okay, you mention that used MEP and got stuck at fact memorization. Then you used MM and it was a failure. MM1 is very big on fact fluency and number bonds if I remember correctly. One plausible alternative would be to go through McRuffy Math 1--since you have it already and she WANTS to do this, then I say go back and complete it, not because its "easy" but because its "fun math". While you and your daughter are completing McRuffy Math 1 peck away at fact memorization. Sorry, but I don't think that an NT child should be allowed to slough off math facts because they aren't fun. We don't accept lack of fluency in reading. Think about it, the sooner a person can look at a letter and can instantly utilize the fact that 'M'='m'=/m/ the sooner and more readily they are able to move on to more interesting things and the more that they can enjoy reading. Ultimately we all recognize that you have achieve instantaneous recognition over a sounds various forms in order to be fluent at reading and writing. Ultimately math facts aren't much different. when it boils down to it 2+2=3+1=4+0=oooo = four= 4 is something that just needs to be worked on until it is (very nearly) instant. HOW you work on it is entirely up to you. There are 1,001 ways to practice, rehearse and memorize math facts. Roll up your sleeves and find the ways that will work for your kids and you, mom. That's what homeschooling is about, no? Personally, I wouldn't teach math facts until we had talked about and understood what commutativity, associativity, inverse and synonyms are. Teaching these 4 concepts well takes about a week, maybe 2 weeks, even for a really young NT-kids. Do not teach subtraction as though its seperate from addition--it isn't. Teach that they are inverses. After your math break, go back to McRuffy-its okay that she understands the material already. Let her have a good relationship with math. This is her math education, not yours. If she likes McRuffy and you already have the first grade material then there is no expense in using it. It is a valuable "filler" for while she is learning and committing those math facts to memory. While you guys are working through the rest of McRuffy grade 1 math, work on your number bonds. Then teach, rehearse and drill facts in whatever way works. I think that it really is okay for a young kid to do and enjoy "easy" work--just because they understand something doesn't mean they have mastered it and that its been placed into long-term memory and their understanding cant or wont fade. Practice, Practice, Practice...Young kids can and do forget languages that they were conversant or even fluent in, so never under estimate the importance of reviewing, practicing and reviewing some more. Its better to do a few math facts at a time being very thorough about them studying them forwards and backwards and taking a whole school or calendar year to learn them all then to try and fail to learn them all at once for weeks on end before giving up in frustration. Last year (K) - we started with MEP 1, I loved it. my daughter tolerated it. We hit a wall with memorizing addition facts and put the house on the market in Feb. so I needed something simpler... I tried Math Mammoth and it was a colossal failure. so after some research I bought McRuffy Math grade 1. McRuffy math was FUN and EASY. She loved the manipulatives and found everything we were doing super easy. After a couple months, I went through and gave her all the tests and quizzes and found that she knew almost everything in the grade one book already. I tried going back to Math Mammoth, only giving her a few things to do in each page and she was still overwhelmed with the amount of stuff on the page and would shut down. Then the house sold in May so school was over for the year as we got packed up and moved. This year (1st) - I tried Math Mammoth again, using pretests, and finally gave up again, she just can't stand it and it wasn't worth tears every single day. So we started with Horizons 2, and I pretested her through - we finished the first half of second grade in just a couple months. Horizons was an easy way for me to ensure she knew the concepts, is colorful, and the repetitive drill killed her. She didn't need that much practice. So I supplemented it with Beast 3A, to test the waters and see how well she could handle it - she loved the first chapter on shapes but when we got to skip counting it was obvious that she wasn't mature enough to face the challenge, and I tried going back to Horizons. We finished Horizons 2B and started 3A when she was just so sick of the repetition, even with me modifying each lesson, that I knew I needed to make another change. But going back to Beast didn't sound like a solution so I got out MEP again. MEP 2a was a breath of fresh air for both of us... for a while. She flew through all of the review, enjoying the different approach to math, and now we are stuck again on lesson 64. Each day is a fight, she can do the work but it is difficult, it makes her think and she doesn't like to work hard. She has asked to go back to McRuffy because that was "fun math". I'm frustrated - I like MEP, but don't want to fight over math every day! But I feel like McRuffy is just so expensive for how easy it is and I don't have any idea what level to purchase if I were to go that route! Please have pity on me and make a suggestion that will make math fun and beneficial all at the same time! I don't know what the scope and sequence of all these various programs are. I think that MM1 is very heavy on fact memorization, but don't have a good idea about MEP, McRuffy, Horizons, Singapore seems like it is comparable to McRuffy in price, (about $90 US, right) If she wants to go back to McRuffy Grade 1 because she loved it and was engaged/entertained by it and you still have it, I say go back to it. I imagine thousands of kids enjoy a repetive story or TV show. If you don't ban fairy tales because "she knows the ending" or shun Dora because the show is predictable I can't imagine why you would get rid of a math book that entertains or engages your 6 or 7 year old simply because it was "easy" or she knew the material already...She is 6. She is allowed to be entertained or engaged by something that a more sophisticated mind finds dull or repetitive. Really, you don't need a math book with a K-2 students, like at all. But there is nothing wrong with using one. I will very probably use one with my son and I am 100% confident in my ability to engage him mathematically without a guide of any kind until he is well into his teens. There is nothing--absolutely--nothing wrong with doing math with young students, but doing math with them isn't inherently "right" either. If you are going to use a program though, don't make it an oppression for you or your students. You are still the teacher and her humanity trumps a math lesson every time. I think that this is a good stage/age to search your library for "Learning Games for Math" type books. I've glanced at the Scope and Sequence of a dozen programs and besides committing math facts to memory there is nothing in any of the K-2 math programs that are popular on this board that can't be covered in the summer time before 3rd grade. ETA: Another thought is to tally up how much you've spent thus far on Alternative Math programs--and see if its really that much more expensive to just continue with her beloved McRuffy? Maybe you can find a way to keep the books from being consumed so that your younger kids will also have the option of using them also. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 You might read the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa.... And at her age I agree with the post up thread, step away from a formal math program right now. Play mathy games, work on fun math type practical application skills (like play store or do some cooking with measurement, etc.) and take a break from formal math while you try to pull together a better plan and seriously analyze your goals and your feelings about math. You might look on this thread for ideas... http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/499692-looking-to-do-some-relaxed-math-here-want-to-share-ideas/ Big hugs. You aren't ruining your child. You are trying really, really hard to do what is best for her. I agree, though, that stress and anxiety over math start early, with lots of pressure, and frequently anxiety from the parent/teacher/school/primary instructor. Keep things positive as much as you possibly can. Best wishes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I am a bit confused. You say she is through a 2nd grade math book, but not mature enough for skip counting? Seconding what MamaBear said about how the chapter in Beast Academy 3A is not really about "skip counting." A lot of it is about math that's usually not introduced in elementary school. In general, I would not use Beast with a child before grade level, so using it alongside 2nd grade math when a child is in 1st grade seems like a mistake unless the child is really gifted at math. I think she's super young. There's no way you've ruined math for her yet. And she will not suffer from having been exposed to lots of good approaches and ways. It's all going to be fine. And even if you continue to hop around, it will be fine. I second Miquon as a possible good approach for her, but if it didn't work for you as a teacher, pick something else that will. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 If you decide to take a break with a formal program, your dd might enjoy Life of Fred. It is pricey if you buy all of the books, and I don't use it as a stand alone program, but my little dd absolutely adores the Fred books. It has helped to make math fun for her. Our main program is Singapore, which we do alongside Fred. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherry in OH Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 The wall she is hitting is the mental math - she is being asked to solve 2 digit by 2 digit addition and subtraction in her head by using several smaller steps (strategy taught in MEP) and the mental manipulation of the numbers is difficult for her, probably in part due to the ADHD which makes it difficult to keep things in her head. But even writing out each step doesn't seem to help her. I am wondering if I need to use something that has a lot of manipulatives? She does not have to do the entire problem in her head. MEP encourages the use of manipulatives until the child is ready to give them up. A meter stick makes an excellent number line for two digit addition and subtraction. If she prefers, she could use an abacus, C-rods, or other manipulatives instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The wall she is hitting is the mental math - she is being asked to solve 2 digit by 2 digit addition and subtraction in her head by using several smaller steps (strategy taught in MEP) and the mental manipulation of the numbers is difficult for her, probably in part due to the ADHD which makes it difficult to keep things in her head. But even writing out each step doesn't seem to help her. I am wondering if I need to use something that has a lot of manipulatives? My kid is pretty good at math in general, but can't do mental math to save his life (what's 6 plus 9? 17! 14?). I'm not familiar with MEP, but SM has mental math strategies throughout the lower levels. He sucked at them. Every time. Finally I just let that go. Years later, it has not hindered him one bit in his ability to learn and apply higher level math. Honestly I don't think it is that big a deal. Yes it needs to be practiced and proficiency should be a goal, but I think as long as the child understands concepts and can correctly perform the necessary operations in some form (oral, mental, written, etc.) it will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Journeys Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 And really, my daughter only just took off with mental math a good year into Singapore. Since she conceptually understood making 10, I moved on. And boom, a little maturity and now at 7.5 she can handle double digits with ease. We're approaching 3 digits now and she is having a hard time, no doubt because it's a lot of numbers to keep track of. Singapore states in the HIG (another reason I adore it) that it's ok, let them use the standard algorithm and proceed. We still practice a couple times a week, but I'm not going to place any stress in her about it, but I have a feeling that again, as she has more time with the numbers, it'll become easier. Facts practice and memorization is key. But, I've been told here and by other moms that mastery isn't expected until the end of *second* grade. So that's quite a long time for them to mature and get all of it straight. Keep it light and fun. We use apps, card games, yelling them out in the car, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamabear2three Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 I appreciate all the advice! I think that I got sucked into the idea that I needed a "challenging" program that would give her the best math background, but maybe going back to McRuffy, the one program that she never complained about, would be the best idea. It's a solid program, even if it might not be the most challenging. I agree that enjoying math might be one of the more important things to focus on, because what you enjoy, you will want to do more and will naturally improve at. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrousel Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 When we hit a frusration point, my general approach is to "move sideways"--- tackle a different concept area for awhile and then revisit the concept again in a few days or weeks. If the frustration is with computational things, fact mastery, try moving your main lessons to topics like time, money, measurement, geometry, while incorporating fact practice a little into each day. That way, you're still covering math concepts and not losing time moving forward. It may not be the what curriculum so much as she needs time to mature or soak up a concept before she can master. Don't be afraid to move sideways and let the concept "marinate" in her brain for a little while. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I appreciate all the advice! I think that I got sucked into the idea that I needed a "challenging" program that would give her the best math background, but maybe going back to McRuffy, the one program that she never complained about, would be the best idea. It's a solid program, even if it might not be the most challenging. I agree that enjoying math might be one of the more important things to focus on, because what you enjoy, you will want to do more and will naturally improve at. I think you're making a good decision. With kids with ADHD, they can be really quick in some things, especially in the younger grades. They seem so bright and precocious and you just want to move them along because they seem to soak it up and get bored otherwise. But there's also some things that don't come so easily and they can get frustrated and shut down. It's really important not to rush these kids and give them something they enjoy. And make sure they really have those fundamentals down. They may just surprise you and forget all that stuff that seemed so easy before. We often did multiple programs simultaneously with my kids when they were in grades one and two but there was a point where they really needed to slow down and focus to really retain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bree Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Sometimes time is what they need also. I know my kids will hit a wall every once in a while and they just need a month or two and then we revisit the same problem and they have no problem with it then. I don't know if you like computer time for your dc, but xtramath online has been great to help get the facts down for us. When math blues get to the kids also I send in the daddy enforcer for a week. He does math with them and by the end of the week they have no problem with me ;) I know it may not be the best but has helped me. Also, at that age I had one that struggled with the amount of writing that could be involved. he could do the work but the writing overwhelmed him. I don't know if that is a problem, but I would scribe for him if I knew he needed a little help ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'smom Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Mathmarm, I didn't want to quote your post because it is so long but I wanted to thank you for it! I found it very inspirational. There were a few things on your list that I could do better and a couple I hadn't even thought to do (talk to the kids about the budget- I have littles, it probably would have occured to me t some point!) Anyway, thank you! This is why I love these boards! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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