FairProspects Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 The boys' math tutor just emailed me that he is concerned they don't know their math facts fluently and highly recommended more focused work. Ugh. He was super polite about it and I appreciate that he would take the time to reach out to me as their teacher, but it just depresses me. He has no idea just how. much. work. we have done on this over the last five *years*. I'm probably extra sensitive to it because I literally just went through their notebooks to file paperwork yesterday and all I could think was "Wow, the boys have done *so* much work. Anyone without a LD would have been bored to death and would have known this stuff years ago." We have done at least 4 complete programs for math fact memorization and fluency. I can't even imagine how frustrating it must be for the boys to deal with because it frustrates me as the teacher endlessly. I also feel like a failure in some ways, but what are you going to do? I can't force their brains to work differently. Sometimes it just hurts when people don't have experience with LDs. They just don't get how hard everyone is working and still they may not see the expected results. It isn't for lack of trying on anyone's part. The worst thing is I don't even know for sure if it will ever get any better no matter how many years we keep plugging away. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: I'm sorry you are discouraged. I think anyone would be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Well I have total sympathy, because dd was one whose facts have been a mess too. Do your boys have dyscalculia? Dd doesn't, but her brain was just a sieve. Now ds was such a mess with number sense, I figured his facts would be a mess. Ironically, we started doing them formally with a flashcard app (Fast Facts, which I like for its customizability and accounts), and he's actually doing really well. One thing that's different though, and if you haven't tried it you could just to see if it helps, is I have him reading the whole thing aloud. Now I'm doing it ostensibly to work on speech, but I'm just realizing it's another input for a multi-sensory mix, kwim? You've probably already tried that. Some really great mathematicians are worthless at computation. I know someone who just aced the math portion of the SAT who has dyscalculia (verified multiple times by multiple psychs!). This does not have to be the end of the world or the end of their math progress. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 I point blank asked the neuropsych about dyscalculia at the last eval and he sort of deflected saying that they would qualify in some ways but that both had fabulous numeracy/number sense so no, they did not fit the official diagnostic criteria. It was really more a 2E moment than anything. The boys aren't actually doing that badly with their facts for *them*. The concern was just because they are working at a very high level in math logic and their arithmetic performance is lower than expected for that level of thinking (classic 2E). It is just frustrating because with all the work we put in I keep thinking that at some point they will level out and both sides will line up to equal success but apparently we aren't there yet. :( We just keep running into that 2E assumption that they should be high performing and if they aren't it must be for lack of experience or effort when in reality we are working our tails off and it still hasn't delivered results. *sigh* On one hand, it is a compliment in some ways that the expectation is there and their strengths are being recognized, but it is hard in a different way when the expectation doesn't line up with reality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Then hand them a calculator for when they're with the tutor. My dd's computation scores went UP the year she started using a calculator. She had to do the calculation or estimate to see if it was worth her time to punch it in, hehe... When she gets tired (this time of year), her math facts get crunchy. She'll say 2+7 is 8 and I'll tell her to use the calculator... I mean, it just is how it is. She does the C level problems in her text, has no issues as a thinker. She's just got retrieval and processing speed issues. But in hindsite I wish we had done the facts aloud the way I'm having ds do them. His processing speed is more than double hers, and it's like jet fuel in his brain, wow. Even though his IQ is relatively close to hers, that processing speed makes a HUGE difference, huge. It's the difference between the facts coming out and the facts lingering in a fog in the back of their brains. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Can you send him a fairly accurate estimate of the amount of time that has been spent on math facts and the resources you have used? Then also send him info on 2e and math challenges from sources he might find reliable? I totally get the frustration. It gets REALLY annoying when they tell your kid they need to just work harder on memorizing those facts. Bite me. That's what I want to say. 'Cause even though DD is FINALLY getting some of her math facts down, it has taken a really long time and a LOT of daily effort. Yet there are times when even DH says that she must not be working hard enough (and he doesn't even have all of HIS math facts memorized). Talk to the tutor. Share how much you have worked on this, if you haven't already and share how frustrated you are with his comments (not that you think him a bad person but that you don't believe he truly appreciates how hard you and your kids are working). Make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that it is NOT lack of effort but LD issues that make this a slow or even impossible process depending on the child. And if the tutor can't handle that, maybe look for a different tutor? :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
displace Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Sometimes it just hurts when people don't have experience with LDs. They just don't get how hard everyone is working and still they may not see the expected results. It isn't for lack of trying on anyone's part. The worst thing is I don't even know for sure if it will ever get any better no matter how many years we keep plugging away. :( I think this is important. The tutor doesn't know. He's not an expert in LD or 2e. I'd be sad and frustrated too for a child. It's hard to work on something with no clear endpoint or even knowing if it will work or not. Maybe this could be part of the accommodation, using math tables or a calculator? Would there be an accommodation allowed for standardized tests in the future? Maybe an email to Neuropsych could answer that. If there isn't a dyscalculia diagnosis does it mean there's not another reason they could qualify? 😞 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minerva Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I just read this article called Learning Math Without Fear. It is essentially about how important math fluency is as opposed to rote understanding. It is a quick read and very encouraging. My dd has a deep conceptual understanding of math but she is a slow processor and couldn't do a math fluency drill to save her life. Here's the link: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/january/math-learning-boaler-012915.html Meanwhile, I find this to be one of the hardest parts of dealing with LDs. All of the hard work for little (no?) gain. Hugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 FWIW, skip counting is a huge help to DD for the tables she doesnt have memorized. We skip count one table every day. She also studies whatever the number pattern is. She can skip count certain tables faster than I can remember the answer. CLE does a lot of skip counting every lesson and it has actually worked well. Also speaking things outloud as OhE mentioned. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 FWIW, skip counting is a huge help to DD for the tables she doesnt have memorized. We skip count one table every day. She also studies whatever the number pattern is. She can skip count certain tables faster than I can remember the answer. CLE does a lot of skip counting every lesson and it has actually worked well. Also speaking things outloud as OhE mentioned. Hmm, that's interesting! I think it's that their visual memories or visual processing is glitchy, so you're getting their through auditory. Math curricula try to be so visual. Anyways, that's really interesting how the skip counting is working out! Guess we'll just keep going, hehe... We're doing the flashcards as part of our journey through RB C-Rods. Maybe we can do the skip counting when we hit RB Multi. It feels weird to be doing facts without any intention of throwing it into a traditional slogging math curriculum, but it feels weird in a GOOD way. I should get down one of my fun books today and start prepping. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geodob Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Though just over a century ago, their was a serious discussion about allowing students to do math calculations, using a pen and paper? Where their was a strong argument, that this would cause students to not really learn how to do math? Historically, a vast array of different methods doing math, have been developed in different cultures. Which is due to the fact, that their is no single right method for doing math. The method is rather arbitrary, so long as it is effective for doing math. With math as basic life skill, it is absurd to force students to only learn one method for doing math? Where the skill is far more important than any method? In the real world, if your accountant used a calculator? Would you view this as an 'accommodation'? Though their a parallels with Dysgraphia, and forcing students to write with pen and paper? Which is now rarely used in the real world. Where we have education systems, that teach children how to live in past? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 That accountant using the calculator can add 2+3 and knows when it's faster to do it mentally and when he should use a calculator. I was saying use a calculator in the tutoring sessions. At home, it's worth the effort to keep working on them in some fashion. But I say again, with my dd they're in there but so slow to retrieve that they're not functional except when they're fresh. When her spiral math program moved on to more conceptual stuff, her computation scores went down again. I guess we just all pick battles, kwim? In a tutoring session, where the goal is conceptual, I'd tell the idiot to let them use the calculator. Meanwhile, work on working memory, Cogmed, etc. to see if you can get that brain stuff working better. That's why my dd glitches. I'd rather have her functional with a calculator and moving forward conceptually than stuck. And yes, she'll sit there saying dumb things like 15 and 65 is 105 (that happened a couple days ago in geometry), and I just end up saying get out the calculator, get out the calculator. It's just her life. But our plan/goal is to do Cogmed soon (sooner than soon) and see what that changes. If in fact her issue is low RAM to process the facts AND the concepts at the same time, the Cogmed should shift that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 DS has seen testable improvement...By the end of 8th grade, DS tested to 9th and 10th grade math (problem solving and calculation) on achievement testing WITHOUT accommodation in the NP's office. This is 2 and 3 stanines below his GAI and an improvement. I assume that means DS is good through pre-algebra. DS is diagnosed with a handwriting and maths disability. I rarely meet people that understand maths disability. I try not to talk about it with others. When dealing with tutors, I try not to hire people that know less than me. A gal at a local math center wanted me to hire her, and she had never heard of c-rods. I am like, whatever... Yes, I feel your pain. ETA: An untrained math tutor can be quite harmful to student that struggles with math. These people can induce math anxiety and unhappiness if they do not use novel math strategies or tailor their teaching to the student. I am weary of math tutors because I have met many unhappy adults that consider their childhoods to be torturous due to uninformed/hurtful math teachers. I understand that your tutor is a nice man and wanting to be helpful; however, I would ask him to use RB materials with your boys rather than hammer any rote learning. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Ariel Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I totally understand! :grouphug: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I'm sorry. That would be very irritating and frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 I worked it out. It was more of a misunderstanding than anything ultimately. He actually asked for my experience with various materials to help other students too. He really is an incredibly tutor both from a content and teaching perspective. I honestly think he just forgot my boys were dyslexic and was surprised by the mismatch of logic to functional skills. He said the info made complete sense because once he made an adjustment during the session (which actually had more to do with dysgraphia) the issue was mitigated. We've been dealing with some other issues lately that do warrant more investigation and I think this incident just fed into my fears more than it probably should have. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
displace Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I worked it out. It was more of a misunderstanding than anything ultimately. He actually asked for my experience with various materials to help other students too. He really is an incredibly tutor both from a content and teaching perspective. I honestly think he just forgot my boys were dyslexic and was surprised by the mismatch of logic to functional skills. He said the info made complete sense because once he made an adjustment during the session (which actually had more to do with dysgraphia) the issue was mitigated. We've been dealing with some other issues lately that do warrant more investigation and I think this incident just fed into my fears more than it probably should have. That's good to hear. He probably sees them as "regular" students (which is good!) and may not understand the functional problems. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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