Penguin Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I am trying not to fear the 1000 page high school textbooks that I have been collecting. Maybe someone can talk me down from the proverbial ledge... Throughout middle school, I have taught to mastery. I plan to continue to teach to mastery. How does one master a 1000 page textbook? Apparently, it happens often enough that kids to do very well on AP exams and SAT Subject tests! For example, what I just did for him for science may not work out so well in high school. He was having trouble really getting the gas laws. We spent an inordinate amount of time "mastering" the gas laws. Which constitute all of seven pages in the Physical Science text book. Granted, I thought that this concept was exceptionally important because he wants to SCUBA dive. But it is a given that other important, tricky things will cross our path again. What do you do? What does mastery of a 1000 page textbook look like? I know people skip stuff. Looking at AP test questions and SAT subject test questions makes skipping feel scary, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clementine Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 When I taught school, we never finished a textbook cover to cover. I have heard/read, from many different sources, that completing 75% of a textbook equals one credit. I would break that textbook down into chapters that are 'absolute musts' and then prioritize remaining chapters/concepts from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 When you are teaching the younger grades, teaching to mastery makes sense. A child needs to master reading and basic arithmetic. They need to be able to begin to apply those skills as they learn about other things - history and science, for example. High school courses are different in that they are overview courses, meant to expose students to a little bit of information about a lot of different things. Earning a college degree demonstrates specific knowledge about a narrower band of information, but true mastery does not come until the graduate school level, when a student earns a masters or doctorate degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 Some of the SAT Subject Tests are freaking me out. It seems like you would have to memorize the whole 1000 page textbook for the Biology test. Same for World History. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Several thoughts: 1. Modern textbooks are so huge not because they contain so much information, but because they are bloated with visual clutter and - for high school texts- have a ridiculously large font size. If one were to remove all photographs that do not enhance concept understanding (chemist in white lab coat holding a testtube), all tables containing constants and material properties, all "activities", "Mini labs", "Bridge to application highlighted box" etc, you would have a slim manageable volume containing actual information. 2. Textbooks contain more material than is necessary or feasible to cover in one semester or year, because they are designed to be used by teachers with varying course sequences and focus areas. Just to give you a perspective: in my 2 semester college physics course, I use a 30 chapter textbook. Of those, I cover 20 chapters in detail (some more thoroughly than others), 3 chapters in a brief overview, and 8 chapters not at all. Why do I leave them out? Two of them contain material my students covered in chemistry, and I know they all had several semesters of rigorous chem. Four of them contain material not necessary for the audience (biology/premed), and the remaining four chapters would be nice to cover, but there is not enough time, and other concepts are much more important. Other colleges may have a three semester sequence to cover the same text and can include the remaining material. The textbook is designed to be used by teachers at all different kinds of institutions. Mastery of a subject always has to begin with the mastery of the most important foundational concepts. It is important that my students, for example, thoroughly understand kinematics and forces; I need to spend enough time to make that happen, because that is more important than rushing so I have enough time to cover sound waves. In every subject, there will be vital concepts, and less important ones. Textbooks contain (hopefullly) the former, and also a large selection of the latter. The teacher neeeds to select judiciously where to spend the time. Every textbook will only present a selection of material - it does not cover "all" of a subject. There is no reason why finishing an entire textbook should be a holy grail - it is more important to make sure the students actually learn the important stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I have been wondering the same exact thing. Thank so much for asking. I so wish I could get a textbook not "bloated by visual clutter". This is one of my biggest pet peeves with textbooks. I never know what to read first or second. All that stuff interrupts the flow. I don't know what to focus on. Frankly, I'd love to get away with not using those books for high school. I know, I probably should use some so my kid isn't totally blind sided, but I hate those books. Thinking back to when I was in school though, we never finished a single textbook ever in any subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Mastery of a subject always has to begin with the mastery of the most important foundational concepts. What are those concepts though? It would be helpful to have some sort of list or guide or SOMETHING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckymama Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I have been wondering the same exact thing. Thank so much for asking. I so wish I could get a textbook not "bloated by visual clutter". This is one of my biggest pet peeves with textbooks. I never know what to read first or second. All that stuff interrupts the flow. I don't know what to focus on. Frankly, I'd love to get away with not using those books for high school. I know, I probably should use some so my kid isn't totally blind sided, but I hate those books. And this is why many of us use college textbooks, written for non-majors, for high school science. The ones regentrude listed in the other thread (like Earth Science by Tarbuck) are great options. The diagrams and photos are necessary, though they still have the possibility for distraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I so wish I could get a textbook not "bloated by visual clutter". This is one of my biggest pet peeves with textbooks. I never know what to read first or second. All that stuff interrupts the flow. I don't know what to focus on. The solution would be to get OLD books. We found a fabulous history text - Sort History of Western Civ by Harrison, recommended in the 1st volume of TWTM. Consecutive text! Black and white! Sparse images and maps, no colored boxes, factoid collections. You can READ the thing. Aside from biology, I'd be happy to use an old text any day. The physics texts I used in college are so much thinner.. and contain the same info. There is nothing that ahs changed about mechanics and e&m in the last 50 years. My DD's college uses old textbooks that are slim and extremely meaty - on 300 pages they teach way more than they do on 800 pages of any modern mainstream textbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 What are those concepts though? It would be helpful to have some sort of list or guide or SOMETHING. Look up syllabi for introductory college courses for non majors in the subject. The prof teaching the course will be a person with expertise in that field and will know exactly what the foundational concepts are and teach those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in NY Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I have often wondered why professors don't ask their students to purchase older editions of a text. Is there some contractual stipulation that profs have to abide by regarding requiring certain (new) textbooks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I have often wondered why professors don't ask their students to purchase older editions of a text. Is there some contractual stipulation that profs have to abide by regarding requiring certain (new) textbooks? 1. The college may not allow that because the college bookstore would be unable to acquire a sufficient number of old texts for all students (I have 600 in my class; bookstore can not guarantee to supply 600 copies of used old editions from years ago.) We can't require a text if we can not guarantee that we can provide the text to all students. 2. The instructor may be using electronic resources such as electronically graded homework or tutorials that are tied to the new text. 3. Not an issue nowadays when pirated solution manuals are available online, but previously, instructors would switch to new editions to prevent students from using collected homework files and forcing them to work the new problems. Textbooks are a real problem, mainly because of the ridiculous expense. I wish I could figure out a way to sever all ties with my current textbook company and tell the students to use any old edition from any of three different texts - but that would require me to write all homework assignments myself. Constructing problems is immensely time consuming; writing enough problems to assign 8 problems per week for 16 weeks is a huge task I am very reluctant to take on. But I am pretty darned close, I tell you... now that the publisher of our textbook came out with yet another new version they are trying to get me to adopt... arrrgh. Did I mention that nothing about the actual physics has changed in the last fifty years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in NY Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Thanks for explaining, Regentrude... I never thought about the bookstore having to guarantee enough books... I figured the kids would order from amazon. But it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Thanks for explaining, Regentrude... I never thought about the bookstore having to guarantee enough books... I figured the kids would order from amazon. But it makes sense. At least that was the explanation I was given when I attempted to require an old book. Many students do indeed order from amazon, but if the book is out of print, there's no guarantee they can find enough copies there either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 As a side note, one of my least favorite discoveries regarding textbooks was to find that an AP version of a European history book was simply the same book with the first 12 chapters not on the AP test removed from the book. The "AP" text is 300 pages shorter and had a green cover instead of a burgundy cover and it cost exactly the same new! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I have found that a lot of those 1000 pages are already covered in middle school. Each book covers the scientific method, experimentation, basic cycles....it expounds on these, but it also starts from scratch. Depending on what was done in middle school, even many of the foundational concepts of specific sciences might be known. In that way, a large chunk of those 1000 pages have already been learned. They are able to be skimmed quite quickly even if you do not want to completely remove them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Well and speaking of old textbooks/books... If some out of print book gains a demand it just raises the price. I've seen it with some out of print books of interest to homeschoolers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Some of the SAT Subject Tests are freaking me out. It seems like you would have to memorize the whole 1000 page textbook for the Biology test. Same for World History. To put this in perspective, I have a degree in biochemistry, and I worked in the field for 10 years. I know and remember far more than what is important for a student to know and remember from a high school biology class. I took the practice biology subject test a few years ago and got a 630, and back in high school I got a 620 on the same (or older version of the same) test. On the other hand, when I took the practice world history test, I guessed on just about every single question and got in the 700s. So go figure. All of this is to say that I would design a strong and relevant curriculum for your student and don't worry about the SAT Subject Tests. If your son decides to take a particular subject test, he can study with a test prep book before the exam. And as for nonmajors college text books--I highly recommend them as well. We're using Essential Biology this year because I found Miller and Levine to be too much in the way of nonessential information and I have been extremely impressed. I don't know if my son will be prepared for the subject test after this, but I do know that he is learning what I think is important to know about biology in a connected and conceptual way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 How do you find the names of textbooks for non-major classes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 How do you find the names of textbooks for non-major classes? I think you could get some really good leads right here. I bet you could start a thread asking for recommendations on almost any given subject, and somebody here has already done the research. I am at times in awe of the resource we have here!! Another idea is to search for "Introduction to Zoology Syllabus." I appreciate all of the advice - plenty to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 How do you find the names of textbooks for non-major classes? ask college instructors or students for recommendations look online for syllabi for intro courses look online at college bookstore websites to see which books the intro courses use read reviews and product descriptions for textbooks on amazon and of course: ask on this forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Thanks for explaining, Regentrude... I never thought about the bookstore having to guarantee enough books... I figured the kids would order from amazon. But it makes sense. :iagree: Thanks for teaching me this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor_dad Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 The solution would be to get OLD books. We found a fabulous history text - Sort History of Western Civ by Harrison, recommended in the 1st volume of TWTM. Consecutive text! Black and white! Sparse images and maps, no colored boxes, factoid collections. You can READ the thing. For history, I think readability is the key not pure length. Old books may help with readability without helping with length. Looking at Harrison which you recommend... The '71 edition is 975pp and the '84 edition is 768pp. My '65 Palmer and Colton"History of the Modern World" is 902pp w/o appendices. For APUSH my '71 copy of "American Pageant" is 1068pp w/o appendices. Modern editions do cruft things up a little and come in around 1250pp. However even older AP level history books seem to run ~800-1000pp. For a sobering comparison, we read ~300-400pp per week in my college honors freshman history seminar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 (snip) For a sobering comparison, we read ~300-400pp per week in my college honors freshman history seminar. Speaking of reading loads... I'd like to know what constitutes a "normal" reading load for high school at the Honors and/or AP level. I found one old thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/44600-how-many-pages-should-a-highschooler-read-weekly/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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