What is a reasonable number of hours to expect a focused student to do in a week?

[lewelma]

I'm currently making my ds's annual schedule. And he is planning an awful lot.  I think we can do it, but I want to be realistic.  He is 14, but would like to go to university a year early, so this could be considered his 10th grade year. He will be taking:

 

More math than I care to list - 4 hours a day I would think (none on weekends)

Physics

Music

Mandarin

History

English

 

How many hours is reasonable?  We have a 40 week year here.  He currently does 2 hours of violin lessons on weekends but that is it for school work.

 

I know it varies, just asking so I don't overload.  Daily or weekly numbers are fine.

 

Ruth in NZ

[regentrude]

I know I will be considered a slacker for this, but I'll be honest:

I find 6 hours of schoolwork per day five days a week a sufficient amount of time for schoolwork.

 

Doing this, my DD completed an impressive course of study that was sufficient to gain admission to an extremely selective university.

Back home, high school age school students have around 32-36 periods of 45 minutes per week, plus some homework - they completing a course of study that includes calculus, two foreign languages, three sciences....

 

6 hours of school works fine for mine and allows them to pursue extracurriculars and have some free time - in part of which they even may pursue additional academics for fun. And I doubt I could get more quality concentrated work time out of DS, even if I tried.

 

[lewelma]

Oh, I'm with you.  But what is the MOST number of hours that you think is reasonable for a kid.  He may want to do all these classes, but I just want to make sure that he is not overloaded and then needing to drop commitments mid-year. Especially if we have paid for them!

[lewelma]

 to pursue extracurriculars and have some free time - in part of which they even may pursue additional academics for fun.

 

I wonder if I need to classify some of the math classes/studies as extracurriculars.  The AoPS WOOT for example.  You just can't do 4 hours of math a day and get all your other classes completed in 2 hours -- it just won't work.

 

But he needs down time, and I want to make sure he has it even if right now, in the middle of summer, he thinks he doesn't.

[regentrude]

Oh, I'm with you.  But what is the MOST number of hours that you think is reasonable for a kid.  He may want to do all these classes, but I just want to make sure that he is not overloaded and then needing to drop commitments mid-year. Especially if we have paid for them!

 

That totally depends on the kid!

I know that some of 8FillTheHeart's kids were working extremely long hours (8-10? do I remember that correctly?) out of their own free will and interest.

So, if the student has an academic passion, I can see an ambitious high schooler spend 8+ hours on schoolwork - if one subject is the stuff he lives and breathes.

 

[regentrude]

I wonder if I need to classify some of the math classes/studies as extracurriculars.  The AoPS WOOT for example.  You just can't do 4 hours of math a day and get all your other classes completed in 2 hours -- it just won't work.

I was just going to suggest that: designate some math as "school", require the other "school" - and leave him enough time to do the "extra" math for the fun of it.

 

My DD tutored physics for fun and had no trouble spending four hours doing that. She also read a ton of books and wrote treatises about then online -  that would easily have qualified as "literature course"; she did it just for fun.

[Mom22ns]

That is a lot. If he really wants all of that, 8-9 hours/day is doable. I know because we've done it. However, if anything runs long, if there is extra work, if something is interesting and he wants time to explore, you end up on a tight schedule without much wiggle room before it starts impacting outside activities. I guess it depends a lot in my mind on how many math classes that is. Is it 2 classes taking 2 hours each per day or 4 classes that he is spending 4 hours on? 7 subjects is reasonable even if challenging, 9 is overambitious in my mind.

 

Unlike Regentrude's kids, my kids aren't capable of doing 6 hours of work a day and getting a quality education. It takes longer than that. However, I over planned this year for ds and he burned out after first semester and we've had to scale back dramatically. Over planning isn't a good plan. 

[lewelma]

Problem is some of the math is stuff he has to do a prereqs for classes he will take next.  So it does need to be scheduled in, rather than just done for fun.

 

For a number of reasons, he will be taking PreCalc, Calc1, and Calc2 next year, in addition to the WOOT and the month-long 40 hour take home exam for camp selection. There is also a possibility that he will be on the squad for NZ which will mean extra work.  It is pretty complicated why he is taking so much calculus, but just know that we have kicked around a number of options and this one is actually the best based on timing and human interaction needs.

 

so, I kind of need to schedule 8 hours a day because  he has said none on weekends.  And I am worried that this is too much.  That he might want to do it now, but not be super happy with the plan come mid-year.  I just can't figure out how much might be too much.

[lewelma]

I wonder if I need to move this to the accelerated learning board.  It might actually be a specialist question rather than a high school question.

[Melissa B]

My 15 year old dd spends 40-45 hours per week on school work.

It isn't that she loves it, just that she is a slow worker.

 

She doesn't seem to be overloaded with school work though. She still has time to take dance classes twice a week, acting class once a week, practice guitar daily, perform in at least a couple of plays per year, volunteer at the community theater, etc.

[Lori D.]

Preface: very ordinary/average, non-high achiever DSs here, who enjoyed trying out a variety of extracurriculars during high school which helped them develop some great skills (leadership, public speaking, responsibility, etc.), and allowed time for trying out interests and doing some volunteer work.

 

At the high school level, our DSs could only manage 6, MAYBE 6.5 hours a day of academics/focused thinking and work. Their brains just burned out after that point. PE and extracurricular activities are not included in that. And usually about 2 Fridays/month we took off for involvement with homeschool group activities, field trips, or "bunny trails" of interest. So, we averaged about 25-28 hours of academic work per week, with a moderate amount of work in the summer, as needed.

 

One DS has mild LDs, which is one reason we just could not do more than 6 hours/day. In the end, I think that was a huge blessing, because it helped us have a balanced life.

 

Honestly, I just don't think it's healthy to focus 40-60 hours a week on school and school related activities, as it usually means it is at the expense of other valuable things:  learning life skills; developing slow/deep and meaningful relationships; having free time to explore personal interests and hobbies; having time and energy to explore community volunteering and involvement; etc. And I think it encourages some big-time negatives, including developing a pattern of "work-aholism".

 

 

That's my (unasked for ;) ) 2 cents worth. (I am mostly posting for balance for others who may read this thread, as not everyone is driven or a high-achiever.)  :) BEST of luck in figuring how how to balance it all, or in seeing where/what to cut. Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Arcadia]

I wonder if I need to move this to the accelerated learning board. It might actually be a specialist question rather than a high school question.

How many hours of intense work can he do now? That would give you a good gauge.

 

8hrs is mild on my side of my family which are predominantly intense workaholics but would be normal for my hubby side which is used to a 730-1730 schedule for public high school.

[lewelma]

 7 subjects is reasonable even if challenging, 9 is overambitious in my mind.

 

It is 7 classes.  There is only a 3 week period where he has 3 math classes running, and I am dumping all other subjects for that time.

[lewelma]

I don't post here much, because my ds has been in 8th grade until he decided to skip 9th.  So I am here really for the first time this year (our school year starts in 2 weeks).

 

So saying that, not all of you will know that my ds is competitive on the international stage in mathematics.  He is very likely to represent NZ in the IMO (international math olympiad) which is why he does so much math.

 

Some people on the accelerated board have compared his studies to those in dance or music or the olympics, where the training just takes a LOT of hours.  I guess my ds is in the same situation.

 

I don't know if that really matters to this discussion, but it is a reality here at my house.

[Lori D.]

… this could be considered his 10th grade year. He will be taking:

 

More math than I care to list - 4 hours a day I would think (none on weekends)

Physics

Music

Mandarin

History

English

 

 

… some of the math is stuff he has to do a prereqs for classes he will take next.  So it does need to be scheduled in… he will be taking PreCalc, Calc1, and Calc2 next year, in addition to the WOOT and the month-long 40 hour take home exam for camp selection. There is also a possibility that he will be on the squad for NZ ...

 

so, I kind of need to schedule 8 hours a day because  he has said none on weekends.  And I am worried that this is too much.  That he might want to do it now, but not be super happy with the plan come mid-year.  I just can't figure out how much might be too much.

 

You might sit down with DS and together prioritize the list, so if you hit mid-semester, or mid-year, and if he is drowning and stressed, you both already know what is getting dropped off the list for the rest of the year.

 

It sounds like this is the year he really wants to focus on the Math, so all of that would probably be at the top of his list.

 

Music, History or Foreign Language -- Has DS done enough work to complete required amount of credits for any of these, or is one of these NOT a requirement? That could be the first thing to invest the least amount of time into if the days get long. OR: one of those would be the first thing to drop for 10th grade and then pick up later in 11th or 12th once the big math push is done. OR: scratch it off entirely if it is not a requirement.

 

That's about the only flex room I am seeing in what you listed, since all the math and the WOOT appear to be the priorities, and the English and Science I assume are required credits.

 

 

 

…  ds is competitive on the international stage in mathematics.  He is very likely to represent NZ in the IMO (international math olympiad) which is why he does so much math.

 

… compared his studies to those in dance or music or the olympics, where the training just takes a LOT of hours.

 

That pretty much confirms what I was thinking. I'll slightly modify my suggestion and say just start off now by dropping out two of these credits -- Music, History, Mandarin, Science -- and pick them up again the following year. Those who are in training for international competition pretty much just do that ONE thing, and strip down to bare bones in anything else.

 

(Unless you can warp time and space to squeeze more hours into a day. ;) )

 

Congratulations on the opportunity to represent his country academically at the international level! And BEST of luck in stripping down for the year to allow deep focus and prep for competition. Good luck to DS! Warmly, Lori D.

[lewelma]

 

Honestly, I just don't think it's healthy to focus 40-60 hours a week on school and school related activities, as it usually means it is at the expense of other valuable things:  learning life skills; developing slow/deep and meaningful relationships; having free time to explore personal interests and hobbies; having time and energy to explore community volunteering and involvement; etc. And I think it encourages some big-time negatives, including developing a pattern of "work-aholism".

 

 

This is what I am worried about.  However, I guess in some ways his personal interest is math.  I just don't know if anyone would say to an olympic-level gymnast that you need to develop some personal interests.  But my dad was a workaholic, so I can definitely see that as something I need to think about.

 

His hobbies include: origami and watercolour.

His PE is badminton (3 hour) and Martial arts (3.5 hours) and tramping 8+ days per year

 

2 of his 7 classes are kind of easy - I'm counting violin as a class rather than an extracurricular like some people do here, and I'm counting a very light-weight no-output listen/watch-only history class as a full Carnegie credit.

[Lori D.]

This is what I am worried about.  However, I guess in some ways his personal interest is math.  I just don't know if anyone would say to an olympic-level gymnast that you need to develop some personal interests.  But my dad was a workaholic, so I can definitely see that as something I need to think about.

 

Yes, but as you mention in your later post, the math and WOOT is a one-time, one-year special opportunity. So I can see going for "hard burn" for a year to go for it. :)

[Kathy in Richmond]

Ruth, when my son participated in WOOT (or USACO, or solving mathcamp entrance tests, or take home MOSP packets before summer camp), we treated it as an extracurricular. It didn't show up on his transcript at all.

 

I picked one main math to schedule each year, something that would take him 60 to 90 min per day max. I assigned one math credit to that course (like multivariable calc, linear algebra, diff eq, etc). Everything else was icing on the cake. Provided all his other subjects were getting done, he could spend his free time any way his heart desired. 

 

So, in a typical year he'd have about 6 main subject classes, with an extra fun class or two. Those hours were scheduled and required. He could finish them off by mid-afternoon if he focused on his work. But...I never tried to schedule in the countless hours he *chose* to work on programming projects or extra math competition work.

 

Same with my daughter. She didn't do WOOT, but she spent just as much time on her travel math team stuff & also had USAMTS and Mathcamp application take home papers that required hours of work done at home. Those hours were totally up to her to fill on her own time, and they went into the extracurricular category. I never tried to schedule it into her day.

 

I did it that way in part to remove any pressure the kids might feel. If at any time they would have felt that they'd gotten in over their heads, or if they'd had a change of heart, I wanted them to feel that the extra stuff could be dropped, either temporarily or permanently, without hurting either me or them.  They always put lots of pressure on themselves to excel anyway, and I was always worried that they'd feel that they had to perform at higher and higher levels to please me.

 

One of mine chose the "no weekend work" method that your son prefers. The other one dragged everything out over seven days per week, evenings included, taking more breaks along the way. They each experimented and discovered their own optimal way of scheduling that still serves them well to this day.

 

 

[lewelma]

Yes, but as you mention in your later post, the math and WOOT is a one-time, one-year special opportunity. So I can see going for "hard burn" for a year to go for it. :)

 

Well, I've pulled off everything I can.  I've told him he will have to delay the violin exam until 2016, and he will have to delay his physics science fair project and the rest of his studies until 2016, basically stealing time from Chemistry.  He was ok with those.

 

He can study Mandarin for 30 minutes a day and still make progress. He is way ahead because he started at 10.

 

And a lot of his history class is film.  And I think we might make more film and less reading to make this schedule more realistic.  He does NOT need any history to go to university here in NZ or in Australia.  Only if he chooses to attend a USA university does he need history.  So I am trying to leave the doors open by making a very fun, very doable history credit.

 

I told him that we will NOT reduce English, his hardest class.  he was like :thumbdown:

 

I am not convince, however, that this is a one-year math push.  Every year is a math push for this child.  He is likely to get onto the team in 2016 and 2017.  We will see.

[Lori D.]

I told him that we will NOT reduce English, his hardest class.  he was like :thumbdown:

 

lol. :laugh:

 

 

Well, I've pulled off everything I can...

… delay the violin exam until 2016

… delay his physics science fair project and the rest of his studies until 2016

… study Mandarin for 30 minutes a day and still make progress.

… history class.. we might make more film and less reading to make this schedule more realistic.

… we will NOT reduce English, his hardest class.

 

Sounds like the two of you have a workable plan!

 

 

And one more thought -- perhaps something to just keep in the back pocket? -- if things are going ker-blooey for some reason, then give yourselves permission to call next year 9th grade rather than 10th to have more time to do all the things that DS wants to do. (Which, incidently would also give more time to possibly accrue credits towards college via AP, or other; more time for DS to pull together an even more awesome resume for scholarship applications; and more time time for you to prepare financially for college.)

 

BEST of luck! WOOT!  :w00t:  :w00t:

[lewelma]

I did it that way in part to remove any pressure the kids might feel. If at any time they would have felt that they'd gotten in over their heads, or if they'd had a change of heart, I wanted them to feel that the extra stuff could be dropped, either temporarily or permanently, without hurting either me or them.

 

Very good point.  I can do this with the WOOT and the camp selection problems and the squad extra work if he gets in.  However,  I can't do this with Calc 1.  He will be running a double math class, AoPS precalc and basic Calc 1, concurrently in prep for Calc 2 at university in July.  If he does not do it this way he is either

1)doing AoPS calc concurrently with the WOOT over the NZ summer (which he really does not want to do because he will lose his entire summer)

2) self studies calc 1 and 2, and waits until July 2016 for multivatiate.  Then he is learning by himself for an entire year (which he does not really like; he is very gregarious) and his first university class is at the 200 level and he has lost the chance to trial uni at a lower expectation of performance.

 

So we are stuck with a double math class in terms 1 and 2.  I've tried to consolidate physics in to term 3 and 4 only, but it is just not going to work.  If he takes a 6 month break in mandarin he will forget so much.  Violin is his passion and his stress reliever, so can't get rid of that.  History is now going to be film which he loves and finds relaxing.   Just don't know what to do! :willy_nilly:

[lewelma]

 

And one more thought -- perhaps something to just keep in the back pocket? -- if things are going ker-blooey for some reason, then give yourselves permission to call next year 9th grade rather than 10th to have more time to do all the things that DS wants to do. (Which, incidently would also give more time to possibly accrue credits towards college via AP, or other; more time for DS to pull together an even more awesome resume for scholarship applications; and more time time for you to prepare financially for college.)

 

 

Not quite the same here in NZ, but I do hear you.  He may want to stay in 9th grade for 2 reasons:

 

1) It would allow him to finish his AA in music with his really really awesome violin teacher!

2) It would give him an extra year to try to medal at the IMO.  And there is $$ associated with that at a number of universities across the world, including in China (which would help his mandarin). Plus, I understand it can stay on your resume forever.

 

Problem really is the social side.  So we will very quickly find out if a single class at university is enough to satisfy his need for human interaction in mathematics.

 

[lewelma]

Sounds like the two of you have a workable plan!

 

I'm trying.  Really, I am.  But I find it very hard.  Sometimes I feel like there are no good answers. 

[quark]

I wanted to mention that one strategy we've tried this year is to have DS manage his time by himself. The way I look at it is that he wanted the challenge of community college and I felt it will be a great way for me to learn to get out of his way and have him acquire the accountability and time management skill in a still safe-ish way before he is ready for more.

 

He chooses his courses (4 last fall, and 4 for spring). I only comment if I feel a class might have overly mature content for now (e.g. theater or human sexuality) or if I feel he is choosing too many units. We sit together and chart out an excel spreadsheet to see where the classes will slot in (I only do this step with him because he will otherwise try to carry it all in his head...but truthfully, I just cannot give up my spreadsheet planning addiction). We do this before committing anything else like extracurriculars, homeschool group play/ park days. Fall semester was a huge guess in terms of number of instructional+homework+practice hours. He ended up with a 8-8-8-6-4-4-4 schedule on average (8 hours on Mon, 8 hours on Tues, 8 on Wed, 6 on Thurs and so on). This was for 10 units of CC courses (a 1-unit class ended up taking about as much time as a 4-unit class). There was really no way to know this the first few weeks of the semester. In addition, we have about 80 minutes of commute time per day so we do our lit and history in the car for now. One of the things DS really wanted to make time for was to be able to read for pleasure at least an hour+ a day and meet his friends IRL for a long session of playing/ chatting once a week. Everything else he was fine with giving up some weeks and making up on lighter weeks...but I honestly feel that if he had added just another 1-2 hours of study to the week, he would have burned out. It was overall, a successful experiment in getting him to plan his time but also a good reminder to keep my eye on the number of subjects/ units.

 

Will it work for you? Having your DS work out the actual hours? What is it he will be loathe to leave behind and then work it out from there, tweaking for the first few weeks till it feels right. If he looks like he is designing a workaholic schedule, then you can step in and advise...preventing the burnout and stress as much as you can before it happens, but also giving him the chance to design his schedule his way and make adjustments as he sees fit.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Very good point.  I can do this with the WOOT and the camp selection problems and the squad extra work if he gets in.  However,  I can't do this with Calc 1.  He will be running a double math class, AoPS precalc and basic Calc 1, concurrently in prep for Calc 2 at university in July.  If he does not do it this way he is either

1)doing AoPS calc concurrently with the WOOT over the NZ summer (which he really does not want to do because he will lose his entire summer)

2) self studies calc 1 and 2, and waits until July 2016 for multivatiate.  Then he is learning by himself (which he does not really like; he is very gregarious) and his first university class is at the 200 level and he has lost the chance to trial uni at a lower expectation of performance.

 

So we are stuck with a double math class in terms 1 and 2.  I've tried to consolidate physics in to term 3 and 4 only, but it is just not going to work.  If he takes a 6 month break in mandarin he will forget so much.  Violin is his passion and his stress reliever, so can't get rid of that.  History is now going to be film which he loves and finds relaxing.   Just don't know what to do! :willy_nilly:

 

Gotcha!

 

Dd had some times where she had two *required* math classes running simultaneously, usually an AoPS course online and something else that she was doing at home with me. In those cases, each class was scheduled for 1 to 1 1/2 hours per day. I bet that with your boy, Calc will be pretty easy and light, which will balance the online AoPS precalc class.

 

I'm with you concerning summers. My kids worked hard enough all school year long, and I kept summer requirements light, or there would have been a revolt here! I can only imagine how difficult that is to do in NZ, when your summers don't match up with, say, WOOT scheduling. Foreign language always had to be tackled daily during the school year here, too. Even our 3 month breaks resulted in some backtracking. I don't see any harm in holding off on mutivariate calc for a while till you can find a real-life class for your son. It is something he'll need eventually, but not for IMO. And yeah, keep the violin. Piano, dance, baking, & art played the stress relief roles here for my two kids. Gotta have that!

 

By the way, history was also our 'lite' subject. We read and discussed, but I didn't require much output (oh, the horror!)...Didn't hurt either one of them, and actually kept them interested in learning more history later on in college & beyond!

 

[Lori D.]

I'm trying.  Really, I am.  But I find it very hard.  Sometimes I feel like there are no good answers. 

 

I sometimes think that's just the basic nature of teen boys. ;)

[quark]

Oops, sorry. Looks like you already have a great plan in the time that I started writing and was interrupted by the dog and then, managed to finish my thoughts. :P Good luck!

[lewelma]

Oops, sorry. Looks like you already have a great plan in the time that I started writing and was interrupted by the dog and then, managed to finish my thoughts. :p Good luck!

 

No no no.  Quark.  I don't!  Please don't erase it! 

 

I think you are spot on. I think I need to erase everything and sit down with him and make him do it.  Then he will own it and own the implications of so much work!

[JennW in SoCal]

Are history and English both mommy designed and implemented courses?  You mentioned lots of movies for history, so I assume that course is totally your call.  I was going to suggest that there can be lots of wiggle room with English, too, if you are doing it yourself.  You could tie it to history, assign it in blocks of time when you know things are less crazy, listen to audio books together, see plays and/or movie adaptations of novels.  

 

Is "music" a formal theory course or does that just mean time spent on practicing violin in preparation for lessons?  Practicing could totally be something that breaks up the day.  Is he, by the way, playing in an orchestra this next school year?  (I'm just asking cause I'm a violinist and teacher, and am always cheering on young musicians, especially those aren't pursuing it as a profession but could --and should-- keep playing for pleasure.)

 

I don't think you are scheduling too much for a kid who is driven to pursue something specific.  8 hours in a day doesn't have to mean 9 to 5, but could be 9-noon, 2-6 and 8-10.  It could mean reading the assigned English works Sunday afternoon if he felt too burned out to face it during the week.  It also just means that you do what you probably are already doing: help him learn to recognize when he is stressed or over tired and help him carve out time to relax and make sure he does things that are relaxing -- exercise, sleep, video games -- the usual teen boy stuff.

 

I say go for it.  My college boy assures me that calculus is fun.  He isn't even a math major but takes more and harder math every semester just because it is fun. If your son is itching for hours and hours of that kind of fun, why oh why deny him?!!

[Arcadia]

But my dad was a workaholic, so I can definitely see that as something I need to think about.

As a workaholic, my opinion is that these few years is the best time for you to guide him to manage his "workaholic tendencies" (if any) and how to watch out for signs of burn out.

[lewelma]

Gotcha!

 

Dd had some times where she had two *required* math classes running simultaneously, usually an AoPS course online and something else that she was doing at home with me. In those cases, each class was scheduled for 1 to 1 1/2 hours per day. I bet that with your boy, Calc will be pretty easy and light, which will balance the online AoPS precalc class.

 

I'm with you concerning summers. My kids worked hard enough all school year long, and I kept summer requirements light, or there would have been a revolt here! I can only imagine how difficult that is to do in NZ, when your summers don't match up with, say, WOOT scheduling. Foreign language always had to be tackled daily during the school year here, too. Even our 3 month breaks resulted in some backtracking. I don't see any harm in holding off on mutivariate calc for a while till you can find a real-life class for your son. It is something he'll need eventually, but not for IMO. And yeah, keep the violin. Piano, dance, baking, & art played the stress relief roles here for my two kids. Gotta have that!

 

By the way, history was also our 'lite' subject. We read and discussed, but I didn't require much output (oh, the horror!)...Didn't hurt either one of them, and actually kept them interested in learning more history later on in college & beyond!

 

 

Kathy, it seems like math will fill how much time he has for it.  He will prove something, and then spend an addition 5 hours proving it in a more efficient way. Sometimes he even submits 2 proofs to AoPS on the same question!  I just don't know if I should stop it or not.  He is currently doing 20-30 hours a week on olympiad geometry because he is not doing any other classes.  He just really really works hard.  Don't know if I should stop that also because it is our summer!  He is off to the camp next week, so more math!!!!  And then the squad exam.  He is running nervous this year because he actually wants into the squad.  Last year he knew he did not have a chance in hell, so there was less pressure.

 

Not sure what to do about the University classes.  He needs the human interaction.  The head of department has placed him out of 4 of the 5 100 level classes if he does calc1 on his own.  So if he skips calc 2, all that is left is 200 level classes.  Sounds like he could do them just fine, but it is more that the head of dept told us that some kids like ds find the timed assessments difficult, and that doing a 100 level class first is a good idea.  But he was completely open to what ever we thought ds could handle.

 

[8filltheheart]

Getting a solid academic coverage of all subjects is mandatory in our house. If they want more, it simply is added on top of the other requirements. Fwiw, my dd is spending about 3-4 hrs per day on her languages. There is absolutely no way she could finish in 6hrs. But, she also pushes herself in all subjects. For example, I signed her up for DO pre-cal and she watches his videos, but she won't do his assigned problems. She says it is too simplified. She goes through and does more and all the harder problems she can find. She calls ds when she needs help. She takes the DO exams and Ds grades them. She has made a 100 or close to it on every one.

 

I guess you could say my kids have a bizarre ingrained work ethic. ;)

[lewelma]

Jenn, here are my History and English classes  so you can get a feel for what I am planning. I am very open to easing off of everything *except* the writing.  He needs to write 3 papers a term to improve.

 

Posts 68 &69 on this thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/537775-annual-book-hunt-for-my-oldest-update-in-post-68-and-69-english-and-history-course-descriptions/page-2

[lewelma]

I guess you could say my kids have a bizarre ingrained work ethic. ;)

 

8, what is the difference between a work ethic and a workaholic? 

[lewelma]

Are history and English both mommy designed and implemented courses?  You mentioned lots of movies for history, so I assume that course is totally your call.  I was going to suggest that there can be lots of wiggle room with English, too, if you are doing it yourself.  You could tie it to history, assign it in blocks of time when you know things are less crazy, listen to audio books together, see plays and/or movie adaptations of novels.

Yes my choices, my design. This is what I am currently doing, laying out weeks where we can write because not much else is on. Trying to see where things can be doubled up. It is very time-consuming to lay it all out, but really the only way to make it happen. My ds, however, does love reading. So one hour a night every night he reads a novel, and he does not really care if it is hard -- look at our book list in the previous post.

 

Is "music" a formal theory course or does that just mean time spent on practicing violin in preparation for lessons?  Practicing could totally be something that breaks up the day.  Is he, by the way, playing in an orchestra this next school year?  (I'm just asking cause I'm a violinist and teacher, and am always cheering on young musicians, especially those aren't pursuing it as a profession but could --and should-- keep playing for pleasure.)

I didn't know you were a violinist! My ds is working through the ABRSM (royal school exams), so yes, it is a formal exam situation. He has gotten through grade 5 theory, and he doesn't need more theory to do the grade 8 practical (12th grade exam), which was planned for November but which will now be moved to March. Not sure what theory is required for the AA with ABRSM. Ds does chamber music and we will wait for the symphony until he is grade 8 and can audition for the city wide youth orchestra. His tutor is the assoc. concert master of the NZSO, so very well connected and a very very good teacher and mentor. We were headed down the path to professional musician until 2 years ago when ds said, 'but I want to be a mathematician'. It was Kathy who led the way from there. :001_wub:

 

r in a day doesn't have to mean 9 to 5, but could be 9-noon, 2-6 and 8-10.  It could mean reading the assigned English works Sunday afternoon if he felt too burned out to face it during the week.  It also just means that you do what you probably are already doing: help him learn to recognize when he is stressed or over tired and help him carve out time to relax and make sure he does things that are relaxing -- exercise, sleep, video games -- the usual teen boy stuff.

heehee, playing video games now. I am *very* flexible. But I do hold to the writing, or he would wiggle out of it every time.

[lewelma]

As a workaholic, my opinion is that these few years is the best time for you to guide him to manage his "workaholic tendencies" (if any) and how to watch out for signs of burn out.

 

So how do you manage workaholic tendencies?

[8filltheheart]

I wouldn't say my kids are workaholics. Dd also ice skates several hours a week, has a card night with her older brother and sister, spends lots of time playing family games, and goes to youth group once or twice a week. Time for work and time for play and all of that.

 

When I think my kids are out of balance, I simply put on the brakes and tell them no more. I have done it more than once. I can tell when they are tipping between pursuing and being controlled by their interests. (Fwiw, it has been in 8th and 9th grades when they have wanted to bite off more than is possible to chew.). By 10th they seem to have matured into realistic goals.

[lewelma]

I it has been in 8th and 9th grades when they have wanted to bite off more than is possible to chew.

 

Ah, we are 9th grade by age.  hummmm

[lewelma]

So if the weekends are completely free for hobbies, is that enough?

 

I know an awful lot of kids in school who work till late every night and also work weekends.  So perhaps we are ok.  He is just consolidating his effort on the weekdays.

[Arcadia]

So how do you manage workaholic tendencies?

When I was in school, it was the era of the health triangle. I find that the first thing to suffer is physical health; forgetting to feel hungry and forgetting to sleep. Then is the social-emotional aspect of forgetting the outside world exist.

 

I find setting an alarm for bedtime help. The alarm sound kind of alert you and your family that it's bedtime. I have just off the alarm when it rang and had parents reminding me to sleep. I had gone nights without sleep and the sense of time become warp.

 

I had gastro issues so food was trickier but having liquid food on hand help from preventing a hunger/sugar crash. There is a reluctance to stop and eat when hyperfocusing. My aunt was more consistent about getting me to eat a minimum of my three main meals than my parents.

 

Being team lead for science competitions did help. My team mates who are also my good friends would tell me bluntly they are tired. So I had to call it a day and do something else like we talk about their day.

 

When you (general) reach the extent of crash and burn, or isolating friends it's kind of a wake up call to self-regulate. As a parent, recognise signs and be firm about getting in whatever amount of food, sleep, social time, down time that their child need. My parents are workaholics and my dad was work obsessed. I had to yelled at him that he care more for his students than his kids. My mum was able to leave work at the door but she need to be actively doing things.

 

My hubby has a relatively good work ethic. He puts in his best effort while at work and spends a few minutes clearing emails when on vacation. If our kids are sick and I need his help, he lets his boss knows and work from home. He is a hard worker but he doesn't live for work.

 

ETA:

I crash and burn at 14 when Fs didnt affect college entry. Recovered to breeze through my 'O's and 'A's.

[Kathy in Richmond]

As a parent, I always tried to keep my kids' overall balance in mind. If they were completing their basic schoolwork, getting some fresh air & exercise, spending time with family and friends, and were involved in some community activities, not grouching at everyone else, then how they spent the remainder of their free time was totally up to them.

 

I'm of the mindset that it's absolutely wonderful when they find something to be as passionate about as your son is with math. He keeps his weekends free, finds time for his other school subjects, plays the violin, gets outdoor time, etc.  As his mom, you're the one who can tell whether this is feeding his joy or putting too much pressure on his shoulders. Math is like a game to some of us; we *need* challenging problems to feed on. You're not pushing him - he's pushing himself.

 

...As long as there's a sparkle in his eyes, I'd let him go for it during his weekdays.

[Mom22ns]

8, what is the difference between a work ethic and a workaholic? 

 

Work ethic sounds better :)

 

My ds is like that too. He is 2e gifted but with disabilities that make work slow. High school work has always taken between 8-12 hours per day and because he had a certain amount he wanted to accomplish and that was how long it took, he was willing to do that. 

 

I have a good friend whose kids are in ps, but they were in a gifted program that put a small group of middle schoolers (30 out of a very large district) into the high school where they started taking classes and moved into the IB program. It meant long days with hours of homework every day. She got a lot of criticism for it, but her kids really wanted to do it. They weren't athletes, they do all have musical talent, but they didn't have a lot of other interests outside of school. She always felt like people would be happy for her kids to spend 3-4 hours a night at a sport practice (my dd did and I never got criticized), but were horrified that they spent that time on academics. She never understood. 

 

With ds we kept it a secret how long he worked on school each day. Not with intent, but we never talked about it. I know we would have met with that same criticism. I don't know why working long days on academics is wrong and brings judgement. For some kids, it is their hobby, their passion. For ds reading and writing have been his hobbies. It may not look as good as going to nationals in gymnastics each year while still maintaining great grades on an academic resume, but it is who he is. 

 

I won't try to tell you how to work out the schedule. I'll just say, I think you are doing the right thing to work it out in a way that allows him to follow his passion. Hang in there. It sounds like you are going to be in for a crazy ride through high school :).

[quark]

When I was in school, it was the era of the health triangle. I find that the first thing to suffer is physical health; forgetting to feel hungry and forgetting to sleep. Then is the social-emotional aspect of forgetting the outside world exist.

 

I find setting an alarm for bedtime help. The alarm sound kind of alert you and your family that it's bedtime. I have just off the alarm when it rang and had parents reminding me to sleep. I had gone nights without sleep and the sense of time become warp.

 

I had gastro issues so food was trickier but having liquid food on hand help from preventing a hunger/sugar crash. There is a reluctance to stop and eat when hyperfocusing. My aunt was more consistent about getting me to eat a minimum of my three main meals than my parents.

 

Being team lead for science competitions did help. My team mates who are also my good friends would tell me bluntly they are tired. So I had to call it a day and do something else like we talk about their day.

 

When you (general) reach the extent of crash and burn, or isolating friends it's kind of a wake up call to self-regulate. As a parent, recognise signs and be firm about getting in whatever amount of food, sleep, social time, down time that their child need. My parents are workaholics and my dad was work obsessed. I had to yelled at him that he care more for his students than his kids. My mum was able to leave work at the door but she need to be actively doing things.

 

My hubby has a relatively good work ethic. He puts in his best effort while at work and spends a few minutes clearing emails when on vacation. If our kids are sick and I need his help, he lets his boss knows and work from home. He is a hard worker but he doesn't live for work.

 

ETA:

I crash and burn at 14 when Fs didnt affect college entry. Recovered to breeze through my 'O's and 'A's.

 

Thank you Arcadia. You said it well...this is very spot on for DH and me. Somewhere along the line, the constant pain (physical, emotional...the social aspect did not affect me as much) of working so hard was a wake up call and we have both learned to self regulate. I became less of a workaholic after having kiddo because I wanted to be there for him as much as I could mentally as well as physically. Kiddo has learned work ethics vs workaholic-ism. But I need to keep reminding him to take care of himself. I could easily see him suffering like I did. So far, we're fine where he is concerned (but sometimes there are little spikes).

[Pen]

I've not read all replies, but think I'd look at it as what does he need and schedule time for those things he needs and might not otherwise do on his own.

 

So, for example, physical exercise, 1 hour daily minimum, sleep 7-8 hours nightly minimum, eating 2 hours daily minimum, downtime ____ daily, chores _____ daily, violin practice ______ daily, social time ___ .   Etc.

 

Add all that up, plus at least one hour for errors and omissions,  and subtract from 24. Take the remaining and see how it can be divided up amongst what he needs to take for classes and general rounded education, and what he wants to take. And then decide what will fit.

 

 

ETA some might overlap categories, since maybe he could have social time overlap with math team participation, and maybe breakfast could have an audio book history selection playing.   But, anyway, I think also I might try blocking out an actual schedule grid with him, first marking out the parts for sleep, then eating, and so on. See what is left and think about what will be sensible.

 

Also, it seems like a metacognition skill for him to work on this planning with you.

[lewelma]

I've not read all replies, but think I'd look at it as what does he need and schedule time for those things he needs and might not otherwise do on his own.

 

So, for example, physical exercise, 1 hour daily minimum, sleep 7-8 hours nightly minimum, eating 2 hours daily minimum, downtime ____ daily, chores _____ daily, violin practice ______ daily, social time ___ .   Etc.

 This is an excellent idea.

 

Also, it seems like a metacognition skill for him to work on this planning with you.

yes. I've always done it for him, and now it is time to set up to the plate.

 

I've just told him that I think he will need to work 9 til 4 (he works over lunch), and he was like :huh: and a bit of :confused1:  and then was :thumbup1: .  So I'm just not convinced that he knows how long some of these commitments will take. 

 

In the evenings he has

Monday: history with dad 1 hr

Tuesday: Mandarin 1 hr, Martial arts 2hr

Wednesday: dinner cook 1 hr

Thurs: Badminton 1.5 hours, Martial arts 2 hr

Friday: house cleaning 30 min

Saturday: Violin trio: 2 hours

Sunday: Badminton 1.5 hours, history with dad 1 hr

 

So if he is done with his work by 4, and goes to be at 11:30, he does have some down time, but it is also broken up by activities/chores/classes, especially on Tuesday and Thursday.  On non PE days, I try to get him to go for at least a walk, but he does feel like he does enough physical activity with his classes.  Not sure where he gets his muscles from, but he did just hike 11 hours a day for 4 days up an over the tallest peak in our local mountains (1600m).  So he seems fit enough.  I have told him he has to get out in the sun for his Vitamin D every day.

 

7 hours x 5 days +  5 hr classes = 40 hours per week + 7 hrs PE

 

Seems reasonable, unless something goes belly up.

 

 

 

I

[lewelma]

My dh has an interesting perception on the difference between a good work ethic and a workaholic.  Someone with a good work ethic works hard but also enjoys and seeks out down time.  A workaholic feels guilty during down time that (s)he is not doing any work.

 

I like it.

[lewelma]

How long should we expect the University Calc2 class to take each week?  It is not theoretical; but rather designed for engineers at a (not super competitive) state school (I think).

[Kathy in Richmond]

How long should we expect the University Calc2 class to take each week?  It is not theoretical; but rather designed for engineers at a (not super competitive) state school (I think).

 

It'll depend highly on the quantity & level of homework assigned.

 

I don't expect that your son will have any problem at all understanding the theoretical aspects of the course. Some Calc 2 problems involving tricky integrations techniques, polar coordinate graphing & manipulation, & infinite series can be detailed oriented and time consuming. I've seen everything from teachers who just give a handful of representative samples to teachers who try to give the trickiest problems of each type.

 

For an average amount of work, though, I'd expect about an hour per school day.

 

[Teachin'Mine]

It takes what it takes.  As long as he's the one wanting to do four hours of math and the other classes, I'd let him give it a go.  If it proves to be too time consuming or he develops other interest which need time, then the schedule can always be adjusted.  Dd had a very heavy high school load in 9th grade, but it was good prep for the college courseload which followed.   At that time we had no idea what she'd be doing the next three years, but my thinking was that it was better to fit in more early on to allow time for whatever she decided to give time to in later years.  I had read how busy 11th grade typically was with test prep and college searching, etc. and wanted her to have more flexibility then. lol  As it turned out she had no time for test prep or much else as she ended up loving college classes and activities.  But she wouldn't have been ready for the rigor of that had she not been working hard in 9th.  Be willing to adjust his courses as needed.  He may work through the math more quickly than you anticipate.  What some may consider drudgery others find fun.
 

[Butler]

Maybe you already explaind this and I missed it somewhere, but why would he take both Precalc and Calc I at the same time? Can't you just skip the precalc altogether?