Haiku Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I need suggestions for a grammar program for a dyslexic 12 year old boy. We gave up on First Language Lessons a long time ago. It worked well for my dd, but my ds didn't get it at all. We're currently using Ridgewood Grammar, from EPS, and while I think he is making progress with it, he is completely uninterested and says he is not learning anything. He said, "I feel like you keep talking and talking and talking about this grammar stuff and it just never sticks in my head." I'm certainly not going to make him stick with a program he feels is useless to him even if I like it. Suggestions, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I can't recall. Does he have any learning challenges besides dyslexia? I know Shurley English is pretty popular and a neighbor uses it quite successfully with her kids but they don't have any learning challenges. I have Easy Grammar and it seems a solid program, too, but did not work well for my dyslexic kiddos. How much is he struggling with the application of grammar? Meaning, when he writes something or speaks, is it mostly grammatically correct? And I don't mean "Can he diagram a sentence?". I mean, are his speech and writing grammatically correct? I ask because honestly I was not given a solid grammar background in school. We moved all over the country and different schools were using different materials and were at different paces. It was confusing. I did not learn terms very well and was never able to diagram a sentence effectively. I did excellent with writing, though. Explicitly taught grammar lessons were boring, boring, boring, confusing from the erratic exposure and didn't sink in well. I read voraciously, though. Copious amounts of books. Exposure to tons of literature gave me a solid understanding of grammar. I got a near perfect score on the Language arts side of the SAT and did very, very well with writing at the college level. Hopefully, someone will have a good suggestion for specific grammar programs that might work but I wanted to share that a lack of explicit grammar instruction doesn't necessarily mean that a child is not able to learn correct grammar. Best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 How much is he struggling with the application of grammar? Meaning, when he writes something or speaks, is it mostly grammatically correct? And I don't mean "Can he diagram a sentence?". I mean, are his speech and writing grammatically correct? This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 It doesn't stick for my dyslexics either and is a continual review. The Sentence Family and MCT Grammar have been the most successful. Now we are currently working on grammar by function rather than by name. The work is not coming from a specific curriculum but I'm pulling it together from some of the Landmark school materials. It is way more work though so that may or may not be an option you want to pursue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merry gardens Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 You might check out Winston Grammar. We used it when my boys were around that age. The cards for various parts of speech helped. It isn't the only grammar program we've used, but it did seem to put some of the pieces together.Another approach is to address grammar through writing. The Landmark School has a teacher manual the explains how to create lesson plans to do that. (Lots of work! But the scaffolded approach to writing can blend with grammar. ) Excellence in Writing touches on grammar a bit through writing, but it moves faster than some with dyslexia or dysgraphia can move. Edit to add, what to use also depends on how far along the child is with having remediated his dyslexia and what program is being used for that. The O-G program we use is Barton. It increasingly touches on grammar as the program progresses, reinforcing capitalization at the start of sentences and ending punctuation, and teaching various types of phrases that make up sentences. After a certain level, Barton recommends Andrew Pudua's IEW that I mentioned above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxterclan7 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I wonder in retrospect if my oldest is slightly dyslexic for a variety of reasons. We did FLL and Easy Grammar, and he hit middle school and couldn't tell you what any of the parts of speech were (though he was a good writer and spoke correctly), but I can't say he did a stellar job on those sections of standardized tests . But doing Daily Grammar Practice by Dawn Burdette has helped all of my kids retain the grammar they learned better. It has less explicit instruction, but more applied, regular review of all the grammar topics by analyzing and diagramming sentences every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Yup, I love how Barton weaves it in focusing on function. My dd found grammar so easy, it's really astonishing to work with him and see NO click whatsoever. I'm hoping, at some point, to do some things that are physical and manipulatable. I haven't put the Barton phrases onto sentence strips but I keep meaning to. I found a magnetic spinner on amazon and I want to buy that and then write the names of the phrases (did what, where, who, etc.) and then use those to spin and build sentences. I have a similar physical game. He has had no concept even of what a complete sentence is. But I don't know if that's the dyslexia or language disorder stuff. Winston is supposed to be pretty physical. We may try it or we may let it fall into the category of give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 1st grade language arts from critical thinking covers more than I ever imagined and has my friend from the grammar police department impressed. Best of all, my son gets it and is excelling through the workbook. I am looking to buy 2nd grade in February or March. This may not work for every child but I am thrilled with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 1st grade language arts from critical thinking covers more than I ever imagined and has my friend from the grammar police department impressed. Best of all, my son gets it and is excelling through the workbook. I am looking to buy 2nd grade in February or March. This may not work for every child but I am thrilled with it. Is that the Language Smarts or something different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Thank you for all the ideas. I will spend some time looking into them. As far as several questions that were asked: In addition to dyslexia, my son has slow processing speed, poor working memory, auditory processing problems, and speech issues. (In fact, he just graduated from speech after EIGHT years of it, but she didn't close his file in case we have to come back in the future, which I think would make my son implode on the spot.) Perhaps related but perhaps not, when we adopted him at the age of 2, he also need occupational therapy and physical therapy. He has hearing loss in one ear and asthma. (Astonishingly, he is an elite-level hockey goalie.) As far as whether he can speak and write grammatically ... well, he can speak fairly grammatically but he still has problems with irregular past tense verbs (as does my dd20, who was adopted at 11) and with pronouncing multi-syllable words. For example, he was trying to say "interpretation" the other day, and he had to start and stop several times, and finally I just said it for him and he was able to repeat it. He knows the words, they just don't come out right. We have always noticed, also, that what goes in isn't always what was intended. For example, he once asked a man walking his dog what the dog's name was. The man said Rocky, but our son heard "broccoli." Or I might say, "Put the book on the table" but he hears "Put the cook in the cable." Or I might ask him to write "bring" and he will write "blink." Some of those carry over into his speech. With writing, well, that's a disaster. He is funny and creative, but he leaves out words or uses the wrong verb tense. The physical act of writing is extremely hard for him. I am teaching him to type, but it is not helping much. I am looking at assistive technology for writing. And the remediation thing: he started tutoring for dyslexia in April of last year, just after he turned 11. He goes twice a week. The tutor uses O-G and works with him on phonemes and syllabification, roots, handwriting, phonics rules, etc., a really good mix of stuff. His reading has DEFINITELY improved. He can read higher-level material and reads with more fluency. I would estimate he can now read well on a 5th-grade level, whereas last year it was more like a 3rd-grade level. He still doesn't like to read much, as he finds it fatiguing, but he does read a lot of graphic novels, and he listens to about 3-4 audiobooks a week. The tutor says he has a higher-level vocabulary than most of the kids she has tutored. Please keep the suggestions coming, if there are more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I think you would find it more helpful to use materials marketed to therapists. Jean DeGaetano's stuff on GreatIdeasforTeaching.com is particularly good. http://www.greatideasforteaching.com/SearchResults.aspx?Search=grammar I'm assuming you're wanting to work on usage rather than labeling parts of speech? Or maybe you're hoping one will help both? Usage I'd be concerned about, but labeling parts of speech not so much. If what you have is working but just too wordy, can you photocopy it, cut it apart, and turn it into something he can manipulate instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Is that the Language Smarts or something different? Yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaughingCat Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 The Landmark video featured on Dyslexic Advantage showed the first grammar style I have ever thought might actually work for DD. No memorization and focus on phrasing. I just got their "Thinking about Language" from amazon but haven't had time to look through it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 The Sentence Family Do students have to do their own drawings? If so, he'd never go for it. He hates to draw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Do students have to do their own drawings? If so, he'd never go for it. He hates to draw. That's the idea, but we just built them with Legos instead and took pictures for our notebooks. I think it is really pretty flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 1st grade language arts from critical thinking covers more than I ever imagined and has my friend from the grammar police department impressed. This looks very comprehensive, but I think that my son would be offended by the juvenile look of it. He is very sensitive to things that are "for little kids." :/ ETA: The Language Mechanic, which they also sell, looks very cool though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 That's the idea, but we just built them with Legos instead and took pictures for our notebooks. I think it is really pretty flexible. He would LOVE that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest2 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 My family has tried so many different curriculi . The thing that seems to work the best for us is Anayltical Grammar. We have to slow way down, and rewatch the video lesson about three times. In our house, the way is looks is day one we watch the video together and do the sample sentences. Day two , we watch the same video and do 3 different sentences, day three is about the same. It is dry and It is difficult, but because it is a diagraming program, there is enough repetition to identify all the parts, This may not be needed, but grammar isn't intuitive over here. I don't start until after we complete Bartons 8, because I think when struggling with reading, I can't introduce all of this. My high schooler did all kinds of grammar programs and did well, but couldn't apply any of them until she did this in 9th grade. Somehow it clicked then. Currently my 12 year old is starting to work through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I love these kinds of threads. We tried MCT with very little retention. We are using R&S loosely, more like me writing sentences on the whiteboard and the girls particpating verbally or with their scented dry erase markers. They also adore a game called Silly Sentences. Eta: FLL1 worked great. FLL2 moved too quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1shortmomto4 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 You might take a look at the book A Giggly Guide to Grammar (and sometimes when you look on Amazon other suggestions will come up that are similar). It sounds like your ds is making great progress. I'm assuming he has a hearing aide for the one ear? My ds has severe hearing loss in both ears and it was a struggle to help him learn the grammar/punctuation and at 21, he still struggles. He struggles at times because there are sounds that he will never hear - even with the aids and so it can become impossible for the student to make the connections. The loss of hearing is so brain-connected and people struggle to understand that. They think/see the hearing aide and assume it works like a pair of glasses - instant total correction but nope, not the case. Now that my ds has accomplished 2 years of CC and my dd (dyslexic) followed behind I see that the biggest skill they needed for grammar was punctuation but also being able to recognize when the sentence is written poorly or incorrectly. The best way I've found to accomplish this goal was sentence editing- think Fix It or even the Giggly Guide as they edit sentences and begin to make the connections - and with the older student it is presented in a non-kiddy way. Just a few rambling thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMama Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 We are having the best luck with IEW's Fix it. Fix it has guided questions for each sentence, which gets my dyslexics talking and thinking about language. It includes vocabulary. It includes IEW's dress ups. We do not use IEW's writing, but the exposure of the dress up in Fix it has a positive impact on their writing. It includes cards of all concepts to use and review. We are only 1/2 way through the first book. They can label the parts of speech learned. Correctly use There/their/they're and to/two/too. Understanding pronoun antecedent agreement. Identify verbals, which is an advanced concept for this book. Understand when to start a new paragraph. Kind of amazing for two moderate dyslexics. The best part is......they like it. Easiest 15 minutes of our school day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 dp sorry.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 We are having the best luck with IEW's Fix it. Fix it has guided questions for each sentence, which gets my dyslexics talking and thinking about language. It includes vocabulary. It includes IEW's dress ups. We do not use IEW's writing, but the exposure of the dress up in Fix it has a positive impact on their writing. It includes cards of all concepts to use and review. We are only 1/2 way through the first book. They can label the parts of speech learned. Correctly use There/their/they're and to/two/too. Understanding pronoun antecedent agreement. Identify verbals, which is an advanced concept for this book. Understand when to start a new paragraph. Kind of amazing for two moderate dyslexics. The best part is......they like it. Easiest 15 minutes of our school day. How old is your eldest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMama Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I'm using it with a 12 and 9 yo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 This looks very comprehensive, but I think that my son would be offended by the juvenile look of it. He is very sensitive to things that are "for little kids." :/ ETA: The Language Mechanic, which they also sell, looks very cool though! I was a bit worried about it being too little kiddish for my son as well. Thankfully he did not care. I think part of it is that he had gone through most of Building Thinking Skills book and had already started the math so he started with an open mind. I did have to skip the first part that was letters and go straight to the meatier parts. The Language Mechanic looks pretty interesting. I will keep that one in mind. Though I think the reading level is too high for him right now though. FWIW Word Roots was a complete disaster. Hopefully, he will get to it one day, but right now it is put in the back of the bookcase and being ignored. Pity, because his geeky mother was really excited to start that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 What most seems to have helped my ds (12) with English grammar is working on a foreign language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 What most seems to have helped my ds (12) with English grammar is working on a foreign language. That is what helped me the most. Sadly, my son is not ready for that. He tried. Poor thing really wanted to learn Greek. He has a language disorder so for him language anything is going to be extremely difficult. A child who has dyslexia, but not a language disorder would probably benefit greatly from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 That is what helped me the most. Sadly, my son is not ready for that. He tried. Poor thing really wanted to learn Greek. He has a language disorder so for him language anything is going to be extremely difficult. A child who has dyslexia, but not a language disorder would probably benefit greatly from it. I get this, totally. DS wanted to learn Latin and Greek so badly. He, too, tried and tried. It has caused tremendous frustration so we are standing down for now. But he also glitches with Barton. There is more than just dyslexia going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I get this, totally. DS wanted to learn Latin and Greek so badly. He, too, tried and tried. It has caused tremendous frustration so we are standing down for now. But he also glitches with Barton. There is more than just dyslexia going on. Barton was a nightmare for my son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Barton was a nightmare for my son. I remember. It just made me so sad and frustrated for you and for him to hear how long he had been on Barton level 1. I kept hoping something would click for your son or they would switch him to something that would actually help him (he was at Scottish Rite?). But you finally moved him to High Noon, right? It is actually helping, right? Keeping fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Scottish rite center is correct. The one great thing that came from it was another friend decided to try with her son and he is flying through it and gaining so much from it. High Noon is great. He is on lesson 45 of 65 and reading 2nd grade (minimum) books. I slowed down on the lessons to do more reading. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Scottish rite center is correct. The one great thing that came from it was another friend decided to try with her son and he is flying through it and gaining so much from it. High Noon is great. He is on lesson 45 of 65 and reading 2nd grade (minimum) books. I slowed down on the lessons to do more reading. :) :hurray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 That is what helped me the most. Sadly, my son is not ready for that. He tried. Poor thing really wanted to learn Greek. He has a language disorder so for him language anything is going to be extremely difficult. A child who has dyslexia, but not a language disorder would probably benefit greatly from it. Greek did not work out for my ds... Due to Percy Jackson there was an idea that maybe it would, but it didn't. When we were able to get duolingo well (which alas, bummer, major frustration, due to dial up connection we no longer can), German helped him. All nouns are capitalized so for the first time, what a noun is really came through. And then he managed to get the idea of articles since he had to figure out whether to use die, das, or der (he didn't get to case changes). And so on. He'd finished High Noon though, plus some other reading in English before he started on Duolingo. I'd suggest waiting till you are done with High Noon, and then trying out Duolingo and seeing if any language "clicks" with your son. For mine, not having to use a whole new alphabet was a help. Not for grammar in your case, but just to see if there is a click with a language that they offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I get this, totally. DS wanted to learn Latin and Greek so badly. He, too, tried and tried. It has caused tremendous frustration so we are standing down for now. But he also glitches with Barton. There is more than just dyslexia going on. I was advised that a root and affix study should come after reading remediation is completed. DS and I haphazardly did one in 7th grade, and then he took a classical roots class in 8th grade. The class played games, and there was a friendly competitive element to it. DS did very well in the class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I'm using it with a 12 and 9 yo. Thank-you,,,I'm being thrown when you post because I expect to see sneakers and they are missing. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 As far as whether he can speak and write grammatically ... well, he can speak fairly grammatically but he still has problems with irregular past tense verbs (as does my dd20, who was adopted at 11) and with pronouncing multi-syllable words. For example, he was trying to say "interpretation" the other day, and he had to start and stop several times, and finally I just said it for him and he was able to repeat it. He knows the words, they just don't come out right. We have always noticed, also, that what goes in isn't always what was intended. For example, he once asked a man walking his dog what the dog's name was. The man said Rocky, but our son heard "broccoli." Or I might say, "Put the book on the table" but he hears "Put the cook in the cable." Or I might ask him to write "bring" and he will write "blink." Some of those carry over into his speech. With writing, well, that's a disaster. He is funny and creative, but he leaves out words or uses the wrong verb tense. The physical act of writing is extremely hard for him. I am teaching him to type, but it is not helping much. I am looking at assistive technology for writing. I'm not sure these difficulties would be met by any grammar program. Mostly I would think identifying the verbs that cause him trouble and practicing them a lot plus doing what you did with words like 'interpretation' where you say it correctly and he practices repeating it. Or, in general, identifying specific areas that are problems for him IRL and working on those. Also, expectation of what one might be likely to hear might be helpful. I think we often can hear "Rocky" due to having a sense that it is the sort of thing a dog might be named. If the dog actually were named "Broccoli" many of us would probably find that hard to get. Similar with, "Put the book on the table," where context is likely to help us figure out the meaning. I have had friends with dog's names that I had trouble figuring out because they did not fit anything that I could make sense of. Once I could make sense of the name, it became easier to "hear" it. Is English his first language? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is English his first language? No, but he has been speaking it for 10 years now. He was 2 when we got him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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