Good curricula for dyslexia

[baxterclan7]

I have a 8 y.o. dyslexic daughter and am a little overwhelmed by the choices for curricula. We've made some decent progress without any specialized curriculum, but in our struggling I've done a little research and am wondering if I need something better. I've heard good things about PAL from IEW, All About Reading, Spell to Read and Write, and now on this board I keep seeing everyone discussing Barton. It looks excellent, but pricey, and I feel like if I need that much teacher support, I'm willing to get it, but I'm not sure I do. She is reading chapter books, but very slowly and not at all independently. I think we need even more thorough phonics than we've done, and a lot of fluency practice. I had 'moved on' to just reading practice with her without so much phonics, thinking she'd gotten it, and seeing her get confused by all the rules, and thought maybe just the practice reading over and over was the best thing. It actually has been very good for her, but she has never just 'taken off' and become a reader like my other kids did. Would anyone be able to share their experiences with good Dyslexia friendly curricula?

 

Thanks!

 

SaraLyn

Mom of 7, #5 is the dyslexic

[OneStepAtATime]

Welcome!  

 

Sadly, I don't have a good, solid response.  There is no perfect,guaranteed system, unfortunately.  

 

Has she had any professional evaluations?   Are there others in the family that struggle with reading?

 

As for specific systems, most dyslexics do need something systematic that really breaks everything down into tiny details then helps them reassemble those tiny pieces into something that makes sense.  Some of us use Barton.  It is detailed, scripted, has support DVDs, and is much easier for a layman to implement with no prior training than many programs for dyslexics.  it does not work for all kids, though.  It is the creme of the crop for some kids, works well for other kids, is o.k. for still others and is a total fail for others.  Just depends on the kid.  

 

No matter which program you use, each child has different underlying strengths and weaknesses so different things are going to affect the outcome.  DD14 is doing really well with Barton, even though she moves relatively slowly.  We have been using it 2 years and she is on Level 4 (half way).  For her it is wonderful and has unlocked so many doors.  DS10 is using Barton and actually processes and internalizes the rules far faster than his sister but has other glitches that are causing him to trip up.  He is falling behind DD and we may end up switching him to something else.  I love Barton, but it is honestly frustrating him to the point that we sometimes have a hard time moving forward now.  

 

Dyslexia is just an overall term, by the way.  There are so many things that affect the ability to read/write/spell within or alongside that diagnosis.  No two dyslexics function exactly the same way.

 

You might look at other threads on this board and see if anything speaks to you.  There have been a ton of discussions regarding various programs.  There is no perfect program, however.  

 

Hugs and good luck.

[Pen]

You are looking for things to help with reading? Or other things too?  When you say she is reading chapter books, what level do you mean? And how fluently or non-fluently?

[1shortmomto4]

She still seems on the young side and I'd be interested, too, in whether you have a firm diagnosis or just seeing signs.  It seems odd that out of 7 kids only one with dyslexia? Do you or your spouse have dyslexia?  I've got 4 kiddos - 3 have dyslexia of all varying labels and a dh with it, too.  Sometimes kids just need a little longer to make the brain connections to read fluently and 8 is still kind of young - especially if she might have some visual spatial traits (check those out).  Also, be wary of all the research you find on the internet.  Everyone has a product and they are convinced theirs is the best and will fix all your child's learning problems.  You've been given a great review of Barton (not something I chose to use) but if you are seeing progress with the less expensive options be slow to switch.  Dyslexics take some time to make progress and don't fit the normal timeline as other kids do.  I find the biggest help in any curriculum, but especially in teaching a key subject, is teaching to your child's learning strength.  if they are tactile then hands-on/interactive, visual then something visual, etc. What approaches have you used that you notice your dd really responding to (may not be during reading instruction)?  This could be helpful, too.

[lovinmomma]

I have a 8 y.o. dyslexic daughter and am a little overwhelmed by the choices for curricula. We've made some decent progress without any specialized curriculum, but in our struggling I've done a little research and am wondering if I need something better. I've heard good things about PAL from IEW, All About Reading, Spell to Read and Write, and now on this board I keep seeing everyone discussing Barton. It looks excellent, but pricey, and I feel like if I need that much teacher support, I'm willing to get it, but I'm not sure I do. She is reading chapter books, but very slowly and not at all independently. I think we need even more thorough phonics than we've done, and a lot of fluency practice. I had 'moved on' to just reading practice with her without so much phonics, thinking she'd gotten it, and seeing her get confused by all the rules, and thought maybe just the practice reading over and over was the best thing. It actually has been very good for her, but she has never just 'taken off' and become a reader like my other kids did. Would anyone be able to share their experiences with good Dyslexia friendly curricula?

 

Thanks!

 

SaraLyn

Mom of 7, #5 is the dyslexic

 

To the above bolded.... This sounds very similar to my dd(almost)10. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, because I just got my hands on Level 1 of Barton on Saturday. Although, I've been researching it for quite some time. 

 

DD can read chapter books. Slowly. She skips/omits/incorrectly identifies many words while reading. DD struggles with new words unless they are completely phonetic. Her spelling is horrendous, but very phonetic and does not cross from her spelling tests into her daily writing. DD's struggles with spelling even short, high-frequency words. Capitalization and punctuation are sloooowly getting better, but it's still so easy for her to forget. She also struggles greatly with ANY rote memorization, math facts (+-/x), direction, phone numbers, addresses, and practically anything that requires rote memorization. She STILL can't remember how to spell her OWN middle name. Sigh. This past year I finally taught dd my phone number by making it the passcode for practically everything. Win!

 

So, all of that to say that, yes, dd can read but there's something that she's lacking in recall or memory or something. I believe that Barton is going to help with that. I've watched almost the entire first DVD and even though I would not consider myself dyslexic it was as if Susan was talking to me and knew me personally. Susan picked out exactly the things that weren't quite "perfect" for myself when discussing areas that might be difficult for the trainer. It was really interesting that she knew exactly the areas that I needed to practice more as a tutor for dd.

 

Susan details things that I didn't even know I needed to be broken down into detail! I love that.

 

I don't question that helping dyslexic students in Susan's passion and that she has developed an amazing resource to help the average Joe teach dyslexics successfully. Will it be the right fit for everyone? No, but I think it's the right fit for us. Time will tell. :)

[baxterclan7]

I am in the process of getting her evaluation set up. She is not reading fluently. Sometimes she'll surprise me and read fairly fluently, and other times she stumbles on every single word. She has most of the classic symptoms and other related ones: she forgets short "easy" words regularly, has learned the magic e rule (long vowels) hundreds of times, but still doesn't usually remember it automatically, struggled a great deal to learn letters and accompanying sounds as well as numbers, has a hard time with rote memorization and needs context or something memorable (and therefore counting and skip counting have been really tricky), etc. I wonder a little bit if the evaluation will tell me anything I haven't already noticed. A lady on my local listserve told me her daughter's eval wasn't particularly helpful except to validate her observations, so I'm also curious for feedback on the value of formal evaluations if you have observed these issues and have good resources for thorough instruction anyway. My oldest two children struggled a little with some of these things, but quickly became good readers; the next two practically taught themselves to read. So this is my first really hard work experience with teaching reading. But she, as is common, is very bright, creative, and talented. Also, my youngest sister is dyslexic, so yes, there is some family history.

[baxterclan7]

Oops, forgot to reply about what I'm looking for-- just a reading and spelling curriculum.

[baxterclan7]

Just read your post, lovinmama, right after I posted mine . My goodness, you could've been describing my daughter! Exactly those issues!

[lovinmomma]

Just read your post, lovinmama, right after I posted mine . My goodness, you could've been describing my daughter! Exactly those issues!

We didn't even do an evaluation. DD is not formally diagnosed. Whatever you choose I would choose something O-G based. I understand how hard it is to afford Barton. I'm borrowing the first level.

[baxterclan7]

Level 1-2 Chapter books, depending on the books, even 3 or 4. She read and loved Frog and Toad books and Little Bear, and they were fairly easy for her; some other books that claim to be that level were disastrous. We've just rediscovered the Christian Liberty Press Robinson Crusoe Reader which she loved and was highly motivated to read, but she still isn't fluent at it, though it's decodable and gives lots of practice on tricky words.

[AHASRADA]

My dd was 8 when we finally realized/accepted that she was dyslexic. There were signs for a couple of years, but I took everyone's advice to wait fot reading to just "click", but it didn't. The list of signs and symptoms on Susan Barton's website is what convinced me to have her tested.

 

Barton was much too expensive, but a friend had used Wilson with her dyslexic ds, so I used that. It was a lot of preparation and effort, but definitely worth it.

 

If I were remediating reading instruction with an 8 year old today, I would use either All About Reading & Spelling, or Logic of English. They are the most open-and-go, easy for mom to implement programs out there without totally breaking the bank. They are more expensive than those that require lots of prep and training, but much more affordable than Barton. LOE Essentials would provide a one year crash course/review/phonics gap filler with reading, spelling and handwriting combined. If you think she needs prolonged phonics instruction and practice and/or her spelling is progressing at a different level and pace than her reading, then All About Reading & Spelling would be the best choice, since the reading and spelling programs are separate and you can continue spelling instruction over the years after she has completed the reading portion.

 

Explicit OG phonics instruction is absolutely essential for dyslexics to reach their full potential in reading and spelling. Please do not underestimate its importance. I would recommend implementing one of these programs ASAP.

 

[merry gardens]

I have a 8 y.o. dyslexic daughter and am a little overwhelmed by the choices for curricula. We've made some decent progress without any specialized curriculum, but in our struggling I've done a little research and am wondering if I need something better. I've heard good things about PAL from IEW, All About Reading, Spell to Read and Write, and now on this board I keep seeing everyone discussing Barton. It looks excellent, but pricey, and I feel like if I need that much teacher support, I'm willing to get it, but I'm not sure I do. She is reading chapter books, but very slowly and not at all independently. I think we need even more thorough phonics than we've done, and a lot of fluency practice. I had 'moved on' to just reading practice with her without so much phonics, thinking she'd gotten it, and seeing her get confused by all the rules, and thought maybe just the practice reading over and over was the best thing. It actually has been very good for her, but she has never just 'taken off' and become a reader like my other kids did. Would anyone be able to share their experiences with good Dyslexia friendly curricula?

 

Thanks!

 

SaraLyn

Mom of 7, #5 is the dyslexic

 

We struggled with SRW, but some have used it successfully.  It goes at a faster pace and threw far more information out all at once than my dyslexic child could handle.  I like IEW, but we just used that for writing this school year. I don't know about their PAL program, but it's not very expensive compared to many of the programs I've used. It might be worth checking out just based on the cost, but their website rated if for grades K-2, so I'm not sure how complete it would be as far as reading programs for dyslexics go. (Advanced phonics for teaching dyslexics Orton-Gillingham style eventually works with concepts that seem far beyond 2nd grade.) The writing program that I used from IEW was appropriate for a dyslexic child that's either only mildly dyslexic or whose dyslexia has been largely remediated already.

 

I'm a dedicated Barton user. We're finally on the final level, level 10, but it took years to get here. The expense of Barton has been spread out over several years, and it's been the backbone of language studies for my dyslexic child's homeschooling.  My son couldn't even pass the Barton screen at first.  If you haven't done so, check out the student screen. It's free.  It helped to identify the severity of my son's phonological awareness problems, (which explained why SRW was such a miserable failure since he couldn't identify sounds within the words.) Because of that, we first used a portion of the LiPS program by Lindamood-Bell. 

 

Lindamood-Bell has some really great materials for people with reading struggles--and they have different programs to address different difficulties. We started with LiPS before Barton, but I liked LiPS so much that I checked out LMB's other materials too and supplemented Barton with some of them. If fluency is an issue for your daughter, you may want to check out LMB'S Seeing Stars program.  It works with phonics, teaching letter sounds, syllables, prefixes and suffixes, etc.. A large part of the program focusses on fluency. Reading fluently is one of the program's primary goals rather than just decoding successfully. The program is a lot more than workbooks, but since I was using Barton, I only used portions of that program--and the workbooks with a cartoon cat were something that I really liked for two of mine when they were around your child's age. That program is not cheap, but if you can afford the manual, some of the supplemental materials can be made inexpensively if you create them yourself. 

[merry gardens]

I want to add in a plug for ElizabethB and her http://www.thephonicspage.org/ free phonics pages.  She often posts here. She has tutored lots of children with reading difficulties and created materials that might offer just the type your child needs. It's worth checking out. 

[PeterPan]

http://bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen Here's the link for the Barton pre-test.  If she doesn't pass it, you follow Barton's instructions for what to do (depending on which sections are low).  

 

I have SWR and all the levels save the very newest (7?) of AAS.  I'm still buying Barton. (starting level 3 this week!)  I spent a lot of time at Eide's booth (LOE) and it's fine for what it is.  I can say VERY CONFIDENTLY that I can't get SWR and AAS to work for my ds, which is why I'm buying Barton.  That doesn't mean for someone else's dyslexic dc they wouldn't be enough.  I loved SWR with my dd and have a Quick & Dirty Guide for it.  We're talking long-term user.  Every day, every single day, I thank God and blow big huggy smooches Barton's way.  The woman has SO many little things woven in that my ds needed.  Fluency, how to talk to him, how to tap vowels, why you do this and that, all the extra supports, the extremely careful staging of everything.  It's just brilliant.  She totally has his number.  

 

If you pay $100+ for your SWR kit, you could have had 2-4 levels of Barton.  A level costs $250 new plus shipping, but you'll sell it for $215.  So you're losing roughly $50 a level, not $300 the way it feels.  I sold two levels, bought level 3 including the readers.  My kid is kicking butt on fluency.  This is the kid who, weeks ago, was sounding out AM every single time, over and over, to the point where I thought I might never see the day.  Today he actually read little cvc words rather fluently!  

 

I think I dragged up a thread of Laurie4b wisdom and it was her quotes or somebody else's where they basically said using something like SWR *might* cover enough to get you there but that you'd be missing all the extras, all the helps someone very experienced with dyslexia specifically weaves into the curriculum.  I can tell you this is DEFINITELY the case.  

 

SWR gives so few helps (for this purpose) I'd encourage you to go LOE or AAR instead.  AAR more so than LOE, even though I haven't used AAR, because at least Rippel has training specifically in OG.  LOE (Eide) trained under Sanseri, so you're getting this uber-distilled version.  

 

I really don't know your dc, so I'm just saying what I see.  But I agree there's severity, what the dc has been able to piece together.  Maybe AAR would take care of it for her.  I can see where Barton might be really tedious for some kids.  On the other hand, you would use the level (however quickly) and sell.  I'm just telling you there are reasons Barton costs so much and that to say SWR will get you to the same place is like saying a bicycle and a limousine will both get you across country.  Barton isn't a limo, but it's got the motor, more gas, better body, more features, more wheels.  And that more powerful mechanics lets you get somewhere faster.  SWR is written for kids who infer and make leaps.  Barton assumes kids don't make leaps and need explicit instruction.  If your kid needs it made explicit, SWR might require too many leaps.  If your kid just needs some instruction and can make the leaps herself, SWR will get you there.

[baxterclan7]

Wow, such very helpful advice from everyone! Thank you so much for taking the time to post such thoughtful replies. If anyone has a minute, in addition to feedback about the value of testing, I would love to know what has helped people the most for dyslexia related math challenges as well. I've used a combo of Saxon and RightStart so far with good success, but I only bought the first level of RightStart and I understand that multiplication facts is where it can get really sticky with all of the rote memory.

[PeterPan]

Ronit Bird.  RightStart is like SWR, making a lot of assumptions.  Ronit Bird is like Barton, getting you the rest of the way there, making no assumptions.  If you need just multiplication, RB has an ebook on that.  

 

So you're doing RS A?  B?  I used RS with my dd, and it was good for her.  We went to BJU after that.  We tried other things.  TT has the spiral that makes her faster, but we're back to me teaching her math, sigh.  For her she needs me to teach her and then the TT spiral just to get it faster.  Deep sigh there.  (I had SO hoped TT alone would do it.)  

 

Anyways, if you're using RS A, then I would get the first two RB ebooks (Dots, C-Rods).  They'll be roughly equivalent to what you're doing and go into more detail.  I tried to use RS A with my ds (the dyslexic) because I have such happy memories of using it with dd.  It was just a total total no go.  He just looked at me like I had grown a third ear.  RB will do the same things but just break it down into more steps, more lessons.  She'll connect things too, so you can use c-rods AND build an abacus and let the child see how they relate.  This is awesome to me.  

 

The printed books are a little more overwhelming to start with.  The ebooks are inexpensive and if one of them is where your dc is they're a great place to start.  

[geodob]

You wrote that she: 'struggled a great deal to learn letters and accompanying sounds as well as numbers, has a hard time with rote memorization and needs context or something memorable (and therefore counting and skip counting have been really tricky), etc.'

Where the underlying issue seems to be with Auditory Processing?

The difficulty with rote memorization, could be the real key?

Which requires the ability to use 'Verbal Recall'.

For example, multiplication tables use Verbal Recall.

 

Equally with learning the sounds that accompany letters and numbers?

The visual letter or number, triggers a Verbal Recall of the sounds associated with them.

 

But perhaps you could consider the difficulties you would have?

If you had a difficulty yourself, with Verbally Recalling something?

 

So that the problem is not with 'learning'?

But with recalling what is learned.

Which is different from 'forgetting'

 

Where you also wrote that 'she forgets short "easy" words regularly'.

Though with Verbal Recall difficulties?

Their is often a greater difficulty with what are called 'Dolch words'.

For example: if, such, perhaps, could, are, ... .

As these words don't have anything concrete to associate with them?

Which quite possible relates to your mention that she needs context or something memorable.

 

So that coming back to her having 'a hard time with rote memorization'?

You might consider this in terms of 'having a hard time with verbally recalling what she has memorized'?

[baxterclan7]

Oh Elizabeth, I have used RS B to supplement her Saxon. Have not used it religiously, as Saxon takes so much less time, (and I was spending so much time on reading), but it helped her to conceptualize counting and addition facts. And very interesting observation, geodob. Good things to consider. I'm starting to lean toward just using a good curriculum without testing, thinking that that will help all the weaknesses, but your thoughts sound like if we did testing to identify specific issues, we may better be able to target the treatment?

[Crimson Wife]

I'm leaning towards Wilson and getting the training. The entire Wilson Steps 1-12 standard kit is $279, which is only $30 more than a single level of Barton. The Wilson training costs $750 each for steps 1-6 and 7-12. If I choose to do the practica (another $1400), I could get Wilson certification and work PT as a tutor. 

 

I'm sure Barton is a great system, but I don't think my child needs the most intensive dyslexia program. She may not even be dyslexic at all, as she's too young to be formally tested. She does have "red flags" for it, which is why I'm going ahead with intervention. Wilson is a solid learn-to-read program even for a non-dyslexic child. I look at the training as an investment in myself because I could easily make that back working as a tutor.

[Heathermomster]

Good curricula for a dyslexic?  Think in terms of explicit and multisensory teaching with less handwriting and more doing.  DS prefers more hands on type materials using a variety of inputs.  I pretty much modify to suit whatever DS needs across all subjects.  Explore mindmapping and threads about Charles Haynes and his ideas about vocabulary and the necessary sub-routines for successful writing.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Testing gives you details you may not have right now.  Strengths as well as weaknesses.  There can be a whole host of things causing issues and a whole host of untapped underlying strengths.  Details will help you craft whatever materials you are using into something that actually works for your child, and if it doesn't, you will have a much more solid idea of why.  It won't be some perfect solution that answers every question.  But it should help quite a bit.

 

Good luck and best wishes.

[AHASRADA]

Regarding math, I would stick with Saxon or another spiral approach. Dyslexics typically need constant repetition and review to maintain concepts. I also used RS for grade 1, and found the games great for internalizing math concepts, but I wasn't crazy about the full program. I moved on to Saxon but kept doing the RS games. Once Saxon becomes more text-based, meaning the student is expected to read to learn math, it can become very work intensive for mom, having to read and explain every lesson. At that point (grade 4?), I would move on to TT, which is also spiral. The lessons are presented audio visually on the computer, so minimal reading required. The student works the problem in the workbook, then enters the answer on the computer. If they get a wrong answer, they can watch a step by step explanation on the screen, which is a huge help to mom (especially at higher levels when we aren't always sure how to find the right answer), and fosters independence.

 

As for testing, it can be expensive, but will give you peace of mind and reassurance that you are not crazy or a bad teacher (we all have these doubts), but she really does have a learning difference. It can give you confidence in the face of those who may question your ability to homeschool in light of her struggles. More importantly, it establishes the all-important paper trail necessary to request accommodations down the road on SATs and in college.

[Pen]

She is reading chapter books, but very slowly and not at all independently. I think we need even more thorough phonics than we've done, and a lot of fluency practice. I had 'moved on' to just reading practice with her without so much phonics, thinking she'd gotten it, and seeing her get confused by all the rules, and thought maybe just the practice reading over and over was the best thing. It actually has been very good for her, but she has never just 'taken off' and become a reader like my other kids did. Would anyone be able to share their experiences with good Dyslexia friendly curricula?

 

 

 

My ds at around same age and with similar description in terms of not doing well with rules (but he was a virtual complete nonreader at 8), did extremely well with HighNoon (www.highnoon.com):  Reading Intervention program and Sound Out Chapter Books. Your dd may be past the Reading Intervention stage if she can read some 3&4 (grade?) level chapter books.

 

However, if she still has trouble with CVCe words, then possibly it would still help and the Sound Out Chapter books or other readers might help.

 

My ds did not do well with "rules" type learning, and the HN system was oriented toward practicing patterns over and over in context in order to get to fluency. My ds used all the available Chapter books at first, reading them multiple times until he was fluent at that level, and then moving to the next group.  That is he first read all 9 available books that had CVC words at least 3 times each, then he read the 9 available books that had CVCe and other long consonant words at least 3 times each, and so on. In his case he was also working through the Intervention program at the same time, so the two things reinforced each other.  

 

At the end of the HN sound out books he moved to The Magic Tree House, reading those more than once to get fluency at their levels (though not every single book in the series), and then from there he could read quite well at his age/interest level (that is, was onto Percy Jackson and so on).

 

 

For math when reading was a problem my ds did well with MUS because it had little to read (except word problems) and a very clean black and white page lay out with lots of white space, and good manipulatives. He also liked Beast Academy though it did not come out in the right level at right time for him...even though it was not plain black and white, but it was appealing in other ways and seemed to suit his learning style. At that time of other things we tried, MM and Saxon were bad fits. Plain old Spectrum worked fine until it got to a level where the pages were too cramped. Critical Thinking's Math Detective and other materials were also good for him.

 

He is now using mainly Saxon and some AoPS (pre-Algebra stage), and can handle the more busy pages of those now, but he does not read the verbal explanations. He looks at diagrams, reads problems, and figures out Saxon the same way as he does AoPS in a "discovery" type way, and asks me to explain what is confusing, rather than reading written explanations.  AoPS did not have enough practice and review for him, hence the addition of Saxon.

 

 

 

 

For other learning, I suggest using a lot of audio and visual materials so that learning can continue without depending on reading. Even now that my ds is a pretty good reader, I am still finding that using a lot of audio and visual material (audiobooks, DVDs etc), is a big help. 

[PeterPan]

I'm leaning towards Wilson and getting the training. The entire Wilson Steps 1-12 standard kit is $279, which is only $30 more than a single level of Barton. The Wilson training costs $750 each for steps 1-6 and 7-12. If I choose to do the practica (another $1400), I could get Wilson certification and work PT as a tutor. 

 

I'm sure Barton is a great system, but I don't think my child needs the most intensive dyslexia program. She may not even be dyslexic at all, as she's too young to be formally tested. She does have "red flags" for it, which is why I'm going ahead with intervention. Wilson is a solid learn-to-read program even for a non-dyslexic child. I look at the training as an investment in myself because I could easily make that back working as a tutor.

If she's almost 6, she might not be too young.  I didn't ask our psych how young he would diagnose, but he had NO qualms about diagnosing a newly 6 yo.  

 

Barton is better for somebody who needs all the steps.  Have you looked to see whether a dyslexia school near you is doing certified OG training?  Ours does and includes the practicum, 6 weeks, $1600, straight OG.  The idea that I'd have to prep 2 hours for a 1 hour lesson is insurmountable to me.  The training would get you the big picture, but then what a big pain in the butt still to have to write all those lessons.  Barton has done the pain in the butt for me.  What I use of it is my business.  I think some people who have been trained multiple ways go back to it precisely for that.  But I agree that's not entirely custom to fit a specific situation.  With ds I've gone through retyping lists to leave out his problem letters that we're supposed to avoid.  But it's not rocket science to do that.

 

I'm just saying I was twitterpated by the idea of getting the training till I realized I'd be writing my own plans.  I did that for years with SWR and I'm done with that.  I love having something as a starting point.  But yes, you'd have to get all the levels of Barton and read and read, watch dvds and watch dvds, to get the full picture that you could get with your training.  

 

According to Tokyomarie they have a CTOPP normed down to age 4.  You can definitely push that.  For us, we had to do LIPS and get that going.  Actually what worked well for us was blending LIPS *and* Barton 1 *and* his speech therapy techniques.  Once you get a complicated situation, you've got something where no one person knows enough.  You have to sort of become the trinity and bring it all together.  Then you get the magic.  It's pretty astonishing to me where we've gotten to since October, but it's not like Barton straight or anything straight would have solved that.  There are no books (that I've seen) that say when your kid has apraxia AND language processing issues here's how you blend them.  I just prayed hard over it and hoped it would become obvious in each session how to get things to connect.  Barton alone actually wouldn't be sufficient for him.  I kick it up quite a bit and am MUCH more rigorous with phonogram word, fluency, etc. than she seems to imply is necessary because of my experience with SWR.  

 

If I could get the training without disrupting our progress, I would.  But I'd still find myself wanting Barton just because it makes my life so easy.  It does 80% of the work for me.

[PeterPan]

Oh Elizabeth, I have used RS B to supplement her Saxon. Have not used it religiously, as Saxon takes so much less time, (and I was spending so much time on reading), but it helped her to conceptualize counting and addition facts. And very interesting observation, geodob. Good things to consider. I'm starting to lean toward just using a good curriculum without testing, thinking that that will help all the weaknesses, but your thoughts sound like if we did testing to identify specific issues, we may better be able to target the treatment?

As long as she's understanding, that's all that matters.

 

Do you mean psych testing to diagnose what's going on?  Well if you want to have the correct labels to get accommodations or enable her to self-advocate, yes you'll want evals.  Some people think they know what's going on and are surprised in evals.  Good evals can turn up things you aren't anticipating (additional problems, referrals) and will tell you all sorts of things you might not be clued in on like processing speed, RAN/RAS, attention, anxiety, etc.  These can affect how you teach.  To get those longer, more informative evals, you're usually looking for a neuropsych.

 

So yes I think evals are good because I think people need accurate information to act on.  I guess do what you want.  They're admittedly very expensive. The ps will usually do evals for free.

[Crimson Wife]

If she's almost 6, she might not be too young.  I didn't ask our psych how young he would diagnose, but he had NO qualms about diagnosing a newly 6 yo. 

 

She turns 6 next week but with the autism, she's functionally younger than her chronological age. We could have her tested now but the accuracy would be hit-or-miss because it depends so much on how cooperative she is. It would be like testing a preschooler. The results could be accurate but that's only if she decides to cooperate. It's a lot of money to spend on testing when a low result might be due to non-cooperation rather than an actual problem. I'd rather wait a year or two until she's more mature and more likely to get accurate results.

 

She already has a diagnosis that qualifies her for an IEP and services through our health insurance and the Regional Center. I don't see where there's any particular benefit to spending the money on an eval now rather than on me getting Wilson/Slingerland/etc. training & materials. Maybe if we had a larger budget, but that would come from working PT as a certified tutor.

[LaughingCat]

I have always been under the impression that Wilson and Barton are pretty much equivalent as far as dyslexia programs go.  The difference being hand holding vs. cost not more intensive vs. less intensive.  If cost is the primary factor I would look at High Noon or Dancing Bears before going with Wilson.

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

High Noon is a similar price to Wilson ($153 per level x 2). I've got my eye on their phonics-based chapter books, however.

[Pen]

High Noon is a similar price to Wilson ($153 per level x 2). I've got my eye on their phonics-based chapter books, however.

 

HN reading intervention is $78 per level for one teacher book, student book and student workbook.

 

(The price you mention is for teacher's materials plus enough books and student books for 5 students). Even if you were wanting it for multiple students in a homeschool situation, you still probably do not need 5 individual copies of each student book. (dyslexic quintuplets?)

 

 

ETA: However, I'd suggest that looking at the program and how well it is likely to fit your student is more important than the cost difference. I don't think Wilson and HN do things the same way.  (I think HN may be a good choice for OP's 8 year old. It is much less likely to be a good choice for your 6 year old, unless she is very hi interest/low level, very 2E, or something like that. But 6 is pretty young for HN.)

 

OP might want the HN spelling if she went that direction, since she says she wants both reading and spelling.

 

PS

 

Another program worth looking at is www.talkingfingers.com (not necessarily instead of a good reading program though) which combines typing with some reading practice. Typing tends to be helpful for people with dyslexia.

[PeterPan]

She turns 6 next week but with the autism, she's functionally younger than her chronological age. We could have her tested now but the accuracy would be hit-or-miss because it depends so much on how cooperative she is. It would be like testing a preschooler. The results could be accurate but that's only if she decides to cooperate. It's a lot of money to spend on testing when a low result might be due to non-cooperation rather than an actual problem. I'd rather wait a year or two until she's more mature and more likely to get accurate results.

 

She already has a diagnosis that qualifies her for an IEP and services through our health insurance and the Regional Center. I don't see where there's any particular benefit to spending the money on an eval now rather than on me getting Wilson/Slingerland/etc. training & materials. Maybe if we had a larger budget, but that would come from working PT as a certified tutor.

Makes sense!  I was very worried about compliance with my ds.  Fortunately he LOVED the psych and bent over backwards for him.  The guy has a pacman arcade game in the lobby, lol.  He totally gets this species of boy.  :D

 

Sounds like you have a plan!  :)

[LaughingCat]

Also costwise there is no $750 training required to do High Noon.

[baxterclan7]

I can tell I don't hang out on these forums enough-- I can't figure out how to copy the way y'all do, but in response to Pen: "My ds at around same age and with similar description in terms of not doing well with rules (but he was a virtual complete nonreader at 8), did extremely well with HighNoon (www.highnoon.com): Reading Intervention program and Sound Out Chapter Books. Your dd may be past the Reading Intervention stage if she can read some 3&4 (grade?) level chapter books.

 

However, if she still has trouble with CVCe words, then possibly it would still help and the Sound Out Chapter books or other readers might help.

 

My ds did not do well with "rules" type learning, and the HN system was oriented toward practicing patterns over and over in context in order to get to fluency. My ds used all the available Chapter books at first, reading them multiple times until he was fluent at that level, and then moving to the next group. That is he first read all 9 available books that had CVC words at least 3 times each, then he read the 9 available books that had CVCe and other long consonant words at least 3 times each, and so on. In his case he was also working through the Intervention program at the same time, so the two things reinforced each other.

 

All of the stuff I keep reading talks about how important it is for dyslexics to have explicit, rule- based phonics, and I totally understand why, but I do keep wondering if she'll even be able to remember the rules. How can dyslexics who have trouble with rote memory remember all the rules? For instance, I have taught her about magic e, but she struggles with it every time. Barton and AAR both claim that they teach them memorably, and maybe the key is the specific teaching techniques. And this High Noon sounds like it might be good for her, but is it explicit enough? I am beginning to see the value in an evaluation if it can help me figure out how to accommodate the various challenges. I did just find and download on the talking fingers website a series of spelling rules songs that I bet will help her-- songs make everything memorable. She tried the sample games on that site yesterday and loved them-- a great supplement.

[PeterPan]

Your issue is that you're only reading and applying rules.  You have to go multi-sensory, which is the point of OG.  You should consider getting Barton and being done with it.  It has everything you need and it's open and go.  Buy a level used, sell.  Your cost will be almost nothing.  

[LaughingCat]

My DD also struggled with memorizing/applying rules and because of that I chose to go first with Abecedarian (too mastery based for my DD but has worked for others on this board) and then with Dancing Bears (a program from England for dyslexics).    Both of these programs are morpheme based rather than OG/rule based.     One advantage to them (and High Noon) is much lower cost  as well -- the disadvantage is that you might still end up doing Barton (or Wilson) after.   

 

IMO if you are set on OG I would not go with AAR at all but go straight to Barton and if you want to try something cheaper first then I would go with Dancing Bears or High Noon even though they aren't OG.

[baxterclan7]

I'm no longer worried about the cost. It seems like a good idea to do Bartlon if I'm doing OG. Now I just have to figure out if that's the best route.

[baxterclan7]

I'm inclined to just try Barton and if it doesn't work, then I now have lots of other options or supplements to help! What a wealth of information and knowledge is in this group!! Thank you so much for your help, support, experience, and wisdom. If people still have comments, I'm still interested. I've learned so much from this discussion!

[LaughingCat]

One good thing about trying Barton first - I think the first level covers something that a lot of programs don't and the kids that need it really need it and the kids that don't zoom through (and I believe Barton has a policy that if you zoom through  you can trade it in for Level 2 at no cost?)

[Timberly]

.

[Pen]

I can tell I don't hang out on these forums enough-- I can't figure out how to copy the way y'all do, but in response to Pen: "My ds at around same age and with similar description in terms of not doing well with rules (but he was a virtual complete nonreader at 8), did extremely well with HighNoon (www.highnoon.com): Reading Intervention program and Sound Out Chapter Books. Your dd may be past the Reading Intervention stage if she can read some 3&4 (grade?) level chapter books.

 

However, if she still has trouble with CVCe words, then possibly it would still help and the Sound Out Chapter books or other readers might help.

 

My ds did not do well with "rules" type learning, and the HN system was oriented toward practicing patterns over and over in context in order to get to fluency. My ds used all the available Chapter books at first, reading them multiple times until he was fluent at that level, and then moving to the next group. That is he first read all 9 available books that had CVC words at least 3 times each, then he read the 9 available books that had CVCe and other long consonant words at least 3 times each, and so on. In his case he was also working through the Intervention program at the same time, so the two things reinforced each other.

 

All of the stuff I keep reading talks about how important it is for dyslexics to have explicit, rule- based phonics, and I totally understand why, but I do keep wondering if she'll even be able to remember the rules. How can dyslexics who have trouble with rote memory remember all the rules? For instance, I have taught her about magic e, but she struggles with it every time. Barton and AAR both claim that they teach them memorably, and maybe the key is the specific teaching techniques. And this High Noon sounds like it might be good for her, but is it explicit enough? I am beginning to see the value in an evaluation if it can help me figure out how to accommodate the various challenges. I did just find and download on the talking fingers website a series of spelling rules songs that I bet will help her-- songs make everything memorable. She tried the sample games on that site yesterday and loved them-- a great supplement.

 

 

To quote there is a tab at the bottom right of a post that you can click on and the message you are replying to will appear in the reply box.

 

 

 

 

HN is explicit and well broken down into steps in terms of practice of individual types of patterns. It is the opposite of some other programs that begin with nonsense words and / or learning all the ways an "a" can sound, or all the ways to make a particular sound. Instead (after going over the alphabet and basic sounds), it will have the child practice CVC words with short /a/, then as soon as possible (and with a very few sight words also), work on context reading with short /a/ CVC words--one practices until that is ingrained. Then it will add on another vowel that does not look or sound like /a/ (I think second was /i/ perhaps, and practice both, etc.  The first Sound Out books will deal with all CVC type words and a few sight words to make it work into stories (so for example, my son's first book was The Red Cap, about a lab dog who belongs to a man with a name like Ted or Jim (or some other CVC name).  

 

In the second series of books, though never so far as I know having heard the term magic e unless one of his brick and mortar schools tried that, he read about someone named Jake who was working in a red gem mine, with the help of a mule.  That was one of 9 CVCe and other long vowel sound single syllable word practice stories.

 

By the time he read all those second level books, he had the CVCe pattern thoroughly mastered, as an automatic part of his English reading skill.

 

 

I wanted my ds to be able to read English. HN was great for him. It gave him his start and a method to achieve fluency and automaticity. In one year he went from non-reader other than a few particular words which he had memorized (cat, dog, and his own name) to reading (enjoyably and with fluency) books he wanted to read such as Rick Riordan books, Harry Potter, etc.  He can also now read to learn (though audio and visual are still a big help at his forward learning edge and probably always will be). He can read magazines like Smithsonian, Time, etc.  He can read cookbooks, labels, instructions, safety information...   To me, that is what reading is all about, not about being able to tell about 'magic e,' nor having to stop and think through the rules as one works on decoding (which IMO gets in the way of fluency and automaticity). If you were to ask my ds about 'magic e,' my guess is either at this point he could figure out what you mean because he knows how to read and can deduce what a 'magic e' must be, or maybe he would just say, "hunh?" or maybe look up briefly from his current novel to say,  "I'm busy reading."

 

ETA:

 

I started with HN b/c it seemed like it would fit my ds and was particularly recommended by a reading specialist. If it had not worked for him my plan was to go to either Language! or Barton as a next step, but HN did work for him.  (I should say that we did use a bit of Language!, but not much. Talkingfingers was done overlapping with HN and they went together nicely.) 

 

I gather that at least some of HN now comes on DVD which could free up some time for you with 7 children, since a child could practice those parts via computer. 

 

I suggest you look at online samples of the various programs under consideration, and then choose one.  I agree with LaughingCat not to start with AAR, however. 

[Timberly]

.

[PeterPan]

If nothing else, DS could grow up to be a Barton tutor.

I love this!!   :thumbup: 

[PeterPan]

I'm inclined to just try Barton and if it doesn't work, then I now have lots of other options or supplements to help! What a wealth of information and knowledge is in this group!! Thank you so much for your help, support, experience, and wisdom. If people still have comments, I'm still interested. I've learned so much from this discussion!

http://bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screenHere's the screening test you need to do to see if she's ready for Barton.  Barton also has placement tests for the levels if she has been doing another OG program.   OG is the gold standard in dyslexia intervention, so you don't have to feel worried about doing it.  I know it's an expensive choice, which can make you apprehensive.  

 

On thing to know is Susan stands behind her products and will email and phone consult with you to help you.  It's really not a matter of if it works.  If you're having problems you can call her.  She has an EXTENSIVE tutor support section password locked on the website, so once you buy a level you can write and get access to that.  If you buy from her, she'll send you all that immediately.  If you buy used, she'll still give you access.  

 

The levels also come with dvds to make them easy to implement.  

 

I tried the I See Sam books with my ds, and while it's fabulous that reading your way into reading seems to work for some kids I just didn't see it working for ds.  He'd read a whole book and then at the end still not recognize a word he had been decoding the whole way ("am").  For me, the path of Barton, where you teach explicitly, practice, kinesthetically/tactilely (not a word?) and then drill to fluency is working better.  

 

I'm just saying don't be afraid.  Part of the reason the Barton levels are expensive is because of the support she provides.  I had heard that, but now that I'm into it I'm really amazed.  Every time I turn around I'm finding something more she has done.  Everything is all there and tidy.  If you think wow, I wish I had some fun games to go with this level but I don't have time to research! No problem, she already did and includes the names in the appendix and the ordering forms in the box!  And it's not like they're just blanket, because the forms included with level 2 were for games appropriate with level 2, in the box for 3 for use with level 3, etc.  It's just all so tidy and thought out.  I really think, just in general, if you need OG you can't go wrong with it.  The main frustration is the cost and you said you now have that sorted out.  For me, it's worth it. 

[PeterPan]

Mercy, I'm not trying to say Barton is the ONLY way.  I'm just saying if you want OG, Barton has put so many tools together (and provides so much additional support one on one if you need it) that it's pretty much a you CAN get this to work.  So many other approaches are you can get this to work if you take this training (Wilson) or you can get this to work if you read and build your own log and learn the whole methodology first (SWR).  With Barton it's all there.  Watch the videos, read it, do it, email/phone for help if you need it.  Bam, done.  And no prep time like Wilson.

[Pen]

Another thing to consider if you have not already done so is to read some books on dyslexia, such as Sally Shaywitz (sp?) Overcoming Dyslexia. 

 

The Dyslexic Advantage.   Etc. 

 

Also there are some websites specifically about it.

 

 

 

 

[baxterclan7]

[quote name="Pen"

 

 

I wanted my ds to be able to read English. HN was great for him. It gave him his start and a method to achieve fluency. To me, that is what reading is all about, not about being able to tell about 'magic e,' nor having to stop and think through the rules as one works on decoding..."

 

I completely agree, however what I mean by "she forgets magic e" is that she can't decode it correctly. Or remember it at sight.... After over a year. We've practiced it in lists, we've practiced it in context... Sometimes she gets it, but not usually without help.

 

And to whomever said ther child couldn't remember 'am' after decoding it multiple times in the same sitting, that was my daughter about a year ago. She's progressed, but it's SLOW!

[baxterclan7]

Another thing to consider if you have not already done so is to read some books on dyslexia, such as Sally Shaywitz (sp?) Overcoming Dyslexia.

 

The Dyslexic Advantage. Etc.

 

Also there are some websites specifically about it.

Yes, just did-- it was great! So helpful!

[Pen]

[quote name="Pen"

 

 

I wanted my ds to be able to read English. HN was great for him. It gave him his start and a method to achieve fluency. To me, that is what reading is all about, not about being able to tell about 'magic e,' nor having to stop and think through the rules as one works on decoding..."

 

I completely agree, however what I mean by "she forgets magic e" is that she can't decode it correctly. Or remember it at sight.... After over a year. We've practiced it in lists, we've practiced it in context... Sometimes she gets it, but not usually without help.

 

And to whomever said ther child couldn't remember 'am' after decoding it multiple times in the same sitting, that was my daughter about a year ago. She's progressed, but it's SLOW!

 

How much practice in lists and context? And exactly how?

 

It sounds from what you wrote about her working on for reading such as Frog and Toad that you are not doing a carefully controlled incrementally progressive program, but instead are trying to have her read books with lots of patterns in them before she has mastered the CVCe level.  Is the CVC level fully mastered?

 

ETA

 

Absent dyslexia type problems many children can learn to read on books like Frog and Toad, Dr. Seuss, etc., but children with dyslexia (and related) tend to need a program that is much more incremental and allows mastery at a single level before moving on.

[Pen]

PS I understand the idea of that she cannot remember how to decode CVCe after one year, but I mean, how long per day and per week was spent on it? And how much was she working on just that skill as compared to that skill amongst many?

[baxterclan7]

PS I understand the idea of that she cannot remember how to decode CVCe after one year, but I mean, how long per day and per week was spent on it? And how much was she working on just that skill as compared to that skill amongst many?

You are right, that is definitely a huge part of the problem, as up to this point I was just going with materials not meant for a struggling reader. We have isolated the skills only through doing lists meant to drill for fluency. Besides one or two Bob books that focus on silent e, her readers haven't been specifically focused on that skill. I can definitely see the value of specific focus in the phonics work and readers that you describe in HN. I think she has cvc pretty well mastered judging by which words she stumbles on now, but the next levels are really inconsistent. And I can tell by your very helpful thorough description of HN that we have not done that degree of attention to any level, thus the difficulties we are having. We went through the Bob books and worked on a Phyllis Schlafly phonics book, which worked really quite well for my other kids (in fact, I had two boys that hardly used the phonics reader because thy got it so fast with the Bob books that they didn't want to be bothered with 'all the steps'), so my point isn't that HN wouldn't work, in fact my original worry was that because she hadn't mastered several of the rules she already has 'learned' that she wouldn't do well with a rules based curriculum. What I see now is that is taught both the rules and the repetition in a less effective way than she needs.

[Pen]

If you do decide on HN I can suggest how you might use it effectively, and/or you can call them and they can also help. One of the people who made that curriculum suggested describing the practice like practicing a sport with the various parts separately practiced as skills and then put together, which was meaningful to my ds. Possibly another analogy would be better for your dd.

 

I also think Barton and Dancing Bears are worth your looking at. 

 

Some of the other programs you mentioned are not so much specifically for dyslexia type problems, so far as I know (PAL, AAR, etc. I think would be likely to just be more of what is not working).  

 

There are yet other possibilities like the Davis program, Abecedarian, etc., but the chances are that between HN, Barton and DB, you'll get her reading. IMO, probably as long as you/she do the work it takes, any of these 3 will end up successful.  Adding in Talkingfingers with any of above is likely to be good, though I know for sure it was a nice complement to HN.