Sweetpeach Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi WTM Board: Thank you for the help. Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Just know that most young men ages 13 and 11 are in a tough social atmosphere. It's not necessarily that your boys are being ostracized for their morals. Kids that age can be merciless to just about anyone. If they speak and carry themselves with confidence-and do not engage on debates on these topics- and have a sense of humor, that will go a long toward making their social and emotional lives stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi, Tricia. Where do you live? I ask because I am with teens - mainstreamed, diverse - daily and I don't see what you are describing as the common normal. BTW, if you are back, you might want to change your signature to reflect your older brood. At 14 and 16, I would let them navigate the social quagmire as the young men they are/have become. I would allow *them* to find their way, not your way through them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I'd reconsider their peer group and whether these are really "wonderful families." My boys are 10, 14, 16, and 18 and have very few homeschooled friends; most of their friends, acquaintances, and associates are public-schooled people in sports, Civil Air Patrol, church, freelance music work, and jobs. My boys and I talk about these issues very frequently, because they are living a counter-cultural lifestyle but it's important to us that they are able to spend time with very diverse people without feeling persecuted or backward in any way. None of them have encountered what you are talking about. Not even in a failing school district in one of the five worst neighborhoods in our city. Do they know boys (in every milieu) who talk absolute garbage about women? Of course. Do they feel they have to associate with them or join the talk lest they be ridiculed or ostracized? No. Do they feel there are no decent young men to be friends with, instead? No. Are their workplaces rife with indecent speech? No. Edited to add: Maybe the type of sports environment makes a difference. My guys are competitive in martial arts, FWIW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 My older boys are a lot like yours. I believe the misogynistic attitudes of the mainstream guys they've been exposed to through sporting, etc has led them to try to dissociate themselves with male culture. They are so disgusted by it that they don't want to be part of the group. This is not something they've discussed with me, but rather an observation I have made. I have to admit that they've found like-minded friends as a result - too bad most of them are online friends and not local enough to be irl friends. ETA: Oftentimes they would literally stand alone when in groups like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 My son left Scouts for this reason - too much cr*p going on or being talked about during campouts, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 My older kid (soon to be 13) often cannot relate or go along with how kids his age behave. How does he handle it? He, as you say, stands alone. I haven't really taught him explicitly that he should do XYZ, but given his different upbringing and circumstances it just seems to have made him different. I don't consider it a bad thing. He hasn't grown up with peers/children as role models. He has grown up with adults as role models. My thought is that sometimes I feel bad that he often feels like an outsider. Then again, one is not a kid for very long and does not spend the majority of their years as a kid. He'll have more opportunities to find like minded people in a few years. And in a few years some of the crazy kids will stop acting so crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweetpeach Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thank you for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I think it's one thing to say crazy things and another to do crazy things. To a point if I encounter an adult who says stuff I can hear it without feeling like I'm participating. KWIM? I can't tell other people what stuff to say in my presence. But acting and doing is something else. I frequently talk to my kids about how IQ seems to drop the more people there are in a group. It's hard not to go along with the group, but that is what I tell them. I say you always need to think about your actions and just because a group of people does something does not make it right. I also compliment my kids when they do something I think shows they have acted better than those around them. For example, my son says a lot of the kids play with their phones while the teacher is talking and completely ignore the teacher in a very rude way. I'm referring to a drama class he takes. I tell him well good for you for not doing that. He thinks it is wrong. I agree, but heck I even see adults doing it so expecting kids to act better...not sure it's going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hmmmm, so what I've seen is mostly text-based (darn social media) and especially with my 16 year old, I've not been nosing into his phone b/c I think he needs to learn how to moderate what he sees without isolating himself from his peer group. It's been a tricky stretch here and I just wondered how others help their young men cope. Leaving the sport isn't an option for us and yes, these are wonderful, professional, delightful families who I'm sure have no idea their children talk on text like this, or they'd probably lose their minds. I'm not bursting that bubble -- it's not my place nor would I want to do that. I do want to encourage my boys that their counter-cultural way is a good path to walk but again, tough sell when they are feeling a bit isolated. I don't understand this. These are wonderful, delightful parents who would be absolutely horrified to learn that their sons are being vile, misogynistic bullies, but you don't want them to know the truth? :confused1: I also have a 16 year old athlete, and he says he has never heard his fellow athletes talk like that, nor would they ostracize or bully him for having a different opinion. And I know for a fact that his coach would never put up with bs like that — I've seen him make kids drop & do 50 pushups for not shaking hands after a bout, and he has suspended kids for behavior far less egregious than what you describe. Bullies are not "good kids," bullying is never acceptable, and if I were in your situation, I would absolutely let the other parents and the coaches know about the behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artichoke Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Ds ran into a bit of this during his scouting years, but nothing to the extent you're describing. Ds crossed into Scouts at age eleven. Your sons are older but maybe something like this will work for them, too. Dh role-played with ds and helped him come up with a standard reply. -- " and your point is? " He also worked with ds in how to quietly leave a group where the talk was happening. The boys started to notice and once the others knew they wouldn't get a rise out of him, they eventually stopped. Now, this took months but other boys in the troop, who also disliked the trash talk, began to act similarly. The trash talkers eventually became just a few. As ds got older and served as SPL, he was able to put a stop to it entirely with the help of the other older boys. Dh and I still volunteer with the same troop and there is rarely this behavior. If it does happen, it's usually a younger boy and the older boys set him straight pretty quick. Best wishes as your family deals with this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artichoke Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hmmmm, so what I've seen is mostly text-based (darn social media) and especially with my 16 year old, I've not been nosing into his phone b/c I think he needs to learn how to moderate what he sees without isolating himself from his peer group. It's been a tricky stretch here and I just wondered how others help their young men cope. Leaving the sport isn't an option for us and yes, these are wonderful, professional, delightful families who I'm sure have no idea their children talk on text like this, or they'd probably lose their minds. I'm not bursting that bubble -- it's not my place nor would I want to do that. I do want to encourage my boys that their counter-cultural way is a good path to walk but again, tough sell when they are feeling a bit isolated.Oh, so it's mostly text-based. That's a lot easier to deal with. Have your sons tell their friends that mom or dad saw the texts and were not happy campers or ticked or whatever they want to say. Then they should tell their friends to stop sending the explicit texts. This is assuming they want the texts to stop. If they don't mind the texts, then I'd get involved and block all texting from the phone. I look at it like this: if these guys were chatting in my house, car, or yard about this stuff and with the same words, I'd tell them to knock it off. Just because it's in a written format, it's not any less offensive. Your boys will be encouraged by seeing you and your husband taking a stand against this type of talk. You may even have to take a further stand and look for another place to play sports. Depending on what's in the texts, I'd consider giving the other parents a heads up about the situation. Texting can spin out of control quickly and can have life-altering consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Agreeing with pps. Most organizations have some sort if code of conduct - adult leaders and other parents don't want these behaviors, either, but they have to be aware of it to do anything about it. Let's not make excuses for teens or their parents, or take it as read that we all want to live like this now. Most people don't. Communicate. If leaders and parents do actually say "boys will be boys" and let it stand, pull your kids or go higher up the chain or whatever makes sense. For milder issues my boys have also had good outcomes from leveling up and getting into leadership with other good young people, and working with these friends to set a better tone for the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi WTM Board: I'm not here very often anymore . . . but these boards seem to have the smartest people together in one online place so when I'm in a pinch, this is generally my first place to come. We are a family of faith, haven't been very churchy these past 5 years, probably a bit on the progressive side. We've talked about values, faith, s*x and *orn till we are blue in the face. Clearly, it's worked because our boys (16 & 14) aren't engaging in the 'regular' boy-talk of their peer group and are now getting teased with all manner of names, innocent b*tch, s*xuality slurs, etc etc. This is happening in their sporting world, and it's not something I'm willing to broach with coaches or parents. I feel like my boys, if they are choosing a counter-cultural position when it comes to misogony and loose talk and *orn, then they somehow have to learn to stand alone (I think??? -- do you agree?) I just don't know how to speak into this situation because they will be alone in this branch of their life. How would you encourage your boys if they were in this situation. These are good kids from our sporting world and wonderful families that I'm talking about . . . this vulgar talk seems to be the prevalent culture of the day. We're not willing to pull our kids from their sporting life. We have to teach them how to have "tough skin, soft hearts" but this is a tough sell for boys this age. Anyone have time and energy to throw a few words of encouragement or been there/done that, or a couple books that boys their age might find engaging? I sent my oldest off to school today, and I could tell he was a hurting unit. sigh. Many thanks, Tricia I hear you. My kid was on a high level travel team, and was constantly ridiculed because he stood up for another less "manly" kid when they picked on him, and because he wouldn't watch the porn on the smart phones. He was the tallest and strongest on the team, which helped the ridicule not to escalate. It's a pretty bad environment today. The coaches must be sleeping, that's all I can figure. And where are the parents, not putting controls on their teens' phones? Their kids are streaming porn at 14 and they don't know or care? Argh. Home is "normal" to them. If home is not a vulgar place, they will keep home as the standard. So far so good, but not much further along than you, so we shall see in these final teen years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TN Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I don't really have much advice, but if they feel a need to respond to the negative attention/comments, I might suggest that they go a bit overboard in owning who they are. They can respond with a tongue-in-cheek "why yes, I am the ultimate boy scout" or some such thing. Ds19 actually IS an Eagle Scout, and has used this in response to ribbing about his very conservative manners/haircut/etc. I think avoiding defensiveness can help establish at least manageable relationships within a group and reduce the overall negative tension. Chances are other less secure boys are waiting for a strong ally as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I don't really have much advice, but if they feel a need to respond to the negative attention/comments, I might suggest that they go a bit overboard in owning who they are. They can respond with a tongue-in-cheek "why yes, I am the ultimate boy scout" or some such thing. Ds19 actually IS an Eagle Scout, and has used this in response to ribbing about his very conservative manners/haircut/etc. I think avoiding defensiveness can help establish at least manageable relationships within a group and reduce the overall negative tension. Chances are other less secure boys are waiting for a strong ally as well. Yes, just joke about it. What else can do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 My kids were taught in their karate code of conduct, "I do what I know is right, even if it means standing alone." So this has been an expectation set for them. If they can do it in the face of peer pressure then you've done something right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I don't understand this. These are wonderful, delightful parents who would be absolutely horrified to learn that their sons are being vile, misogynistic bullies, but you don't want them to know the truth? :confused1: I also have a 16 year old athlete, and he says he has never heard his fellow athletes talk like that, nor would they ostracize or bully him for having a different opinion. And I know for a fact that his coach would never put up with bs like that — I've seen him make kids drop & do 50 pushups for not shaking hands after a bout, and he has suspended kids for behavior far less egregious than what you describe. Bullies are not "good kids," bullying is never acceptable, and if I were in your situation, I would absolutely let the other parents and the coaches know about the behavior. I don't get it either. I'd want to know and I wouldn't keep it to myself. I'd be downright pissed off if people knew my kid was on either end of that crap and didn't tell me. Having personally btdt it's my opinion that people who refuse to speak up don't get to complain. And if I did speak up and nothing changed, I'd pull my kid. But then again I have never understood the religious devotion many people have to sports. Not saying the OP is necessarily, but that's how it often seems to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 No one can stand alone long term. Even Christ had help carrying His cross. (Oh the irony that a soldier had to yank someone out of the crowd bc they all just stood there watching and unwilling. Some things never change I guess.) I have dealt with this recently at high school level. It was more vicious and insidious. If you are going to teach your son that it's okay enough not to bother telling anyone, than I'm 100% confident keeping his mouth shut will be no problem. If you are going to teach your son that these behaviors are wrong, then it's time to do that. Someone sends a text or email or FB like that - instant blocked number and removed from friend list. Coach should be told and shown the texts. So should the offenders parents. It isn't bravely "standing alone" if they are actually silently accepting. There's few louder ways to condone something and see it perpetuated. Teens need guidance and by refusing to say anything, you are keeping their parents from being able to offer that guidance. Maybe they won't. That's a whole other problem. But they deserve the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 If you are going to teach your son that these behaviors are wrong, then it's time to do that. Someone sends a text or email or FB like that - instant blocked number and removed from friend list. Coach should be told and shown the texts. So should the offenders parents. It isn't bravely "standing alone" if they are actually silently accepting. There's few louder ways to condone something and see it perpetuated. Teens need guidance and by refusing to say anything, you are keeping their parents from being able to offer that guidance. Maybe they won't. That's a whole other problem. But they deserve the chance. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweetpeach Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Thank you for your help and comments. I did speak to my son about "blocking" some of the kids from being able to text his phone. We talked about "getting out" of some of those group chats that were going downhill quickly. I don't agree with telling other parents about what their children are doing/saying via social media, for two reasons: 1) if those parents really wanted to know, they would check their kid's phone and 2) I'm not looking to parent other people's children. I want to encourage my own to do what they need to do to remain relational with their peer group while not completely ostracizing themselves and not participating in the messy chatter. Everyone is our family knows that the language/description is not ok and I'm not condoning it nor am I judging others and their parenting choices etc etc . . . moving forward, I'm encouraging my kids to stay away from the drivel of chat-groups, block the most offensive kids, and try to be a positive influence with their peer group, if at all possible. Thanks for the help. T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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