How Far to 'Push' Math with a Bright 13 Year Old

[Tammi K]

Poor title, sorry. I'm not quite sure how to ask this so bear with me.  My youngest is 13/ rising 8th grader. He completed algebra 1 in 6th grade and geometry in 7th. He's about to start algebra 2.  In addition. he's working through the imacs courses on line.

 

I foolishly heeded the advice in Life if Fred to not start algebra until 'there is hair under the arms'  I say foolishly because I made the poor kid keep repeating middle school math with a variety of curricula  from 3-5 grade just to pass time until he was 'old enough' for algebra. I now see that he could have started much younger and been fine.

 

What is see now is that even with his current math he is moving easily through his lessons in 20-30 minutes and fully understand the material. I don't want to reward quick performance by giving him another lesson, but 20-25 minutes of math seems too little - I want him to learn to persevere and keep working when it gets hard. But, that's not happening. I don't want to load him down just because he 'could' be finishing more.

 

I should also note that he does NOT like math. He doesn't hate it but it certainly isn't fun. He just 'get's 'er done'.  So, what is reasonable? Is one lesson a day enough even if it only takes 20 minutes? Or, should we expect that gifts be developed and enhanced?   I really don't know how much to do. I know many of you have bright or gifted math students. What would you suggest?

 

 

[regentrude]

My first question would be: what curriculum is he using?

I would prefer such a student to use a more challenging curriculum instead of one that takes a mere 20 minutes. He won't learn to persevere when things get hard unless you give him the chance to work with a curriculum that lets things get hard.

Have you looked into AoPS?

[snowbeltmom]

Imo, 20 to 30 minutes is not enough time to spend on math.  What math program are you currently using? 

[Julie of KY]

I would make sure to challenge him in math. If you are using Life of Fred, you might look into something a little more challenging.

 

Just because he's capable of doing more, I wouldn't push him to do lots of extra math since he doesn't care for it. I would push to finish 1 credit of challenging math each year (but not extra credits).

[Teachin'Mine]

I would think that he's not finding it fun because it's not challenging enough.  I don't think kids should be pushed into anything, but I also don't think they should be held back.   Clearly I disagree with Life of Fred's advice.  Our students are all different and should have material appropriate to their needs and abilities.  Years of working on arithmetic when he was ready to move forward likely sucked the life out of it for him.  Find what makes math fun for him as he obviously has mathematical intuition.

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree, he may not like it because he finds it boring.  My kids are in a different situation than yours in that they are bright but they have LDs, but I think the outcome is sort of the same.  We slogged through basic math for a very long time and they hated it.  Why?  Because it was boring.  Once we started doing more conceptual math and more outside the box math they actually enjoyed it.  I agree with PPs, instead of just looking at the physical time being spent and then dumping additional problems on him to add to his time, see if there is a more challenging, more interesting curriculum you could use.  Is he only doing Life of Fred?  Maybe you could add in some challenging and interesting math games and on-line math challenges, too...

[Tammi K]

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I'll see if I can clarify:

 

My first question would be: what curriculum is he using?

I would prefer such a student to use a more challenging curriculum instead of one that takes a mere 20 minutes. He won't learn to persevere when things get hard unless you give him the chance to work with a curriculum that lets things get hard.

Have you looked into AoPS?

We're currently using Thinkwell. I was looking into gifted programs and saw Johns Hopkins used Thinkwell. Edward Burger has such a good reputation that I felt it would be solid. My son is scoring well and has good retention with it. It's just not requiring a lot of brain power.

 

I have AoP pre-algebra and algebra and I was excited about the possibility of using them in the future but we hopped into Thinkwell so it never got used.  Now he's already completed Thinkwell's algebra and geometry. Would AoP be a rehash of covered material?

 

Imo, 20 to 30 minutes is not enough time to spend on math.  What math program are you currently using? 

 

I agree. Twenty minutes seems way too little in terms on time invested. Curriculum - see above.

 

I would make sure to challenge him in math. If you are using Life of Fred, you might look into something a little more challenging.

Just because he's capable of doing more, I wouldn't push him to do lots of extra math since he doesn't care for it. I would push to finish 1 credit of challenging math each year (but not extra credits).

LoF was just a fun extra in 4th grade. At that point he had already done middle school math (pre-algebra skills) and I was looking for something engaging. I bought LoF and read the 'armpit' comment and decided perhaps we would hold of on algebra. Big mistake. I see that now.

 

1 Credit of challenging math each year - what would you suggest?

 

 

I would think that he's not finding it fun because it's not challenging enough. 

 Actually, I think he would just rather finish his school work and shoot zombies.  :001_cool:   A zombie apocalypse is more fun than math!  Hence my desire to find something that takes more time and effort without that something being 2 lessons a day.

 

 

I agree, he may not like it because he finds it boring.   Maybe you could add in some challenging and interesting math games and on-line math challenges, too...

I'm certainly interested in on-line games that are challenging. Do you know of any high school math level games?   We are also suing the Essentials of Mathematics (imacs) online program and that is the closest I've ever seen him come to being challenged in a long time. But, still he is completing a lesson in well under 1/2 hour. 

 

Perhaps continuing that and Thinkwell is enough and I'm just expecting too much. But, time spent aside, I would like to see him have to actually think a bit.  Thanks everyone for your questions. Given the additional info, any specific thoughts would be appreciated.

[kiana]

Imacs is very good. Where is he in the progression?

 

To check whether AOPS would be just rehashing material or not, try the "do you need this" tests on their website -- for the classes, not just for the texts. Their alg 2 class uses the second half of the beginning algebra book and is recommended for those who had algebra 1 in PS.

[Grover]

 

 

I'm certainly interested in on-line games that are challenging. Do you know of any high school math level games?   We are also suing the Essentials of Mathematics (imacs) online program and that is the closest I've ever seen him come to being challenged in a long time. But, still he is completing a lesson in well under 1/2 hour. 

it's a long time since I looked at it, but Manga High might be of interest

[Tammi K]

Imacs is very good. Where is he in the progression?

 

To check whether AOPS would be just rehashing material or not, try the "do you need this" tests on their website -- for the classes, not just for the texts. Their alg 2 class uses the second half of the beginning algebra book and is recommended for those who had algebra 1 in PS.

 

He's just about finished with the first one, Operational Systems. I was planning to continue through since this is actually making him think a bit.  

[Tammi K]

it's a long time since I looked at it, but Manga High might be of interest

 

Thanks. I'll look for it.

[obsidian]

For online games, AoPS's FtW might fit the bill. I've not looked into it a whole lot, but it does have a leader board and such, and it gave me some interesting problems in the limited time I spent playing with it. You certainly don't have to be using the AoPS books to use FtW, either.

[Laura Corin]

Has he ever loved maths?  That might help you to disentangle whether he is bored or whether maths just isn't his thing, however good he is at it.  Is there something else that he is really passionate about?

 

After some initial problems with the visual spatial aspects, Calvin moved fast through maths.  But he never loved it.  He loved other things, and that was fine.  At school, a total of two years accelerated in maths class, he received top marks in his public exams at school.  He went on with the accelerated group for another year, but decided not to take a further exam at the end of the year: he already had a good exam result to put on his university application, and he didn't want to spend the time on maths - he had other fish to fry.  From age 16-18, he carried on taking maths, but chose maths courses that would fulfil his university entrance requirements, but not take up a lot of his time and energy.  

 

Just some thoughts...

 

L

[snowbeltmom]

 

I have AoP pre-algebra and algebra and I was excited about the possibility of using them in the future but we hopped into Thinkwell so it never got used.  Now he's already completed Thinkwell's algebra and geometry. Would AoP be a rehash of covered material?

 

 

I don't know enough about Thinkwell to say for sure. AoPS does cover topics that are not found in the typical math curriculum, though, and the standard problems are more challenging than the other programs I have seen. (But I have never seen Thinkwell)

 

I think the AoPS placement tests are way too easy to be useful.  You might want to give your son the AoPS post test for Alg I and see how he does.  Another option would be to sign your son up for Alcumus (It's free) and see how many topics he can master right off the bat.  That would give you an idea of where you should start your son in the book if you decide to go with AoPS.

 

Also, are you including the imacs class in that 20-30 minute time estimate?  If you are not, I would definitely include that class when calculating the time your son spends on math.

 

Good luck

[kiana]

He's just about finished with the first one, Operational Systems. I was planning to continue through since this is actually making him think a bit.  

 

Is he doing imacs on separate days from the thinkwell? I'd probably quit the thinkwell and just do imacs if you like it, and finish their progression. It's *supposed* to have you calculus-ready at the end but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there would be un-covered material in the AOPS intermediate series at the end of it -- however, you can cross that bridge when you get there. Also, it could lead into the imacs mathematical logic/set theory/etc courses which are very rigorous math-major courses.

 

Imacs should get more challenging as he moves through the progression -- it's designed for kids who haven't yet had algebra so it's unsurprising that it's only making him think "a bit" at the beginning.

[wapiti]

He's just about finished with the first one, Operational Systems. I was planning to continue through since this is actually making him think a bit.

If you are planning to continue with it, I would have him do much more per day, say an hour at the very least. The first nine courses are prealgebra, IIRC, so it would make sense that he wouldn't be sufficiently challenged, though I agree that Elements of Mathematics is pretty cool. I'm not sure whether all the courses are ready or would be ready in the timeframe that you need them, however.

 

Basically, I think Elements of Mathematics is too late in terms of its development to be anything other than a fun little supplement for your son and not necessarily enough even for that in the early courses. I would consider one sort of AoPS course or another. Maybe the Mathcounts course or the number theory or counting and probability courses would give him some problem solving practice and a taste of AoPS. For moving forward in the usual sequence, I would consider any rigorous algebra 2.

[Julie of KY]

Lots of advice and suggestions from various people and I know you can't do everything.

 

I've gone down the AoPS path with my oldest math-loving kid. It is definitely challenging and he loves it. My second son is very good in math and is currently doing AoPS Algebra and Geometry books concurrentlyl, but I don't think he'll continue the AoPS sequence because he really doesn't care for it much. He gets it quickly and is speeding through AoPS algebra and geometry with about 30 minutes a day (sometimes longer, but usually not). I think he'll move on to a more traditional Algebra 2/Precalc program, but we'll have to see when we get there. I'm not convinced that just because a child can do the very hardest math that he needs to be stretched to his limit. Take into account how easy it is for your son, does he get frustrated, does he want to put his time into other passions? I would say that he has to put a certain amount of time toward learning/schoolwork, but it the basics are covered quickly I'd let him have some say in how and what he wants to spend time learning. If he wants to spend extra time computer programming or tinkering with electronics or reading or something else then that's great. If he can't come up with anything, I'd assign more work of some sort so that he doesn't fill his day with zombies! Use your judgment. Your mom and know your son and family values the best.

 

If he's going to whiz through the traditional math sequence at a young age, consider things like AoPS Counting and Probability. Read the article Calculus Trap on the AoPS site.

 

It sounds like you already own the AoPS algebra text. The last half of the text very well may have topics he hasn't covered yet. If you want to know if he's mastered the material of earlier chapters I'd turn to the review problems at the end of each chapter. They start easy, but quickly get hard. See how he does - it very well may be that he hasn't covered the material to the depth AoPS teaches.

[Lovingparent]

My son and yours are very similar. I could have written entire chunks of your post. I guess some kids can learn math fast but that does not mean it's their thing. I love math and I have tried many different things to ignite that love in my son. I failed. It''s just not going to happen. I am happy that he gets it and he gets it fast and he moves ahead. We used Thinkwell briefly in the middle of 5th grade for Algebra 1. It really did not work for my son. Burger is a charismatic teacher, but my son just wasn't engaged enough, he saw the lectures, got it, did the tests, it was all so fast and I was really worrying about retention and getting the big picture. Before that, we had  used AOPS pre algebra. I know a lot of people love this curriculum, but I think you need a kid that actually cares for math. My son again just wanted to get it done. Not much of an engagement. But is is very thorough and much deeper than other curricula.

 

I cannot be of much help, because after that, I decided to outsource math. I found a high school teacher that offered Algebra 1 and Geometry in live classes and we did that. It made a big difference, just being able to ask questions and do many different exercises. It was more engaging and beneficial. I know classes can be budget busters but an added benefit is, especially for kids this young, you get teacher grades not mommy grades. 

 

This year, we will do Algebra 2 via an online class. I found the following thread very helpful. It has many offerings and it helped me decide what to use. (I hope the link works)

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/369996-algebra-2-on-line-interactive-course/

 

Good luck and if you ever find something that really makes your son love math, please let me know!

 

 

 

[Tammi K]

My son and yours are very similar.

 

 I think we're raising the same kid....about 5' tall, cute, kinda sweet?  Sound familiar? :001_cool:

[Lovingparent]

:lol: Cute and sweet! Yes, that's my son. We are raising the same kid.  :laugh:

[Kareni]

 

 

I'm certainly interested in on-line games that are challenging. Do you know of any high school math level games?  

 

Here is a game that is not on-line in case you are also interested in board games.

 

Equate (Here is a link to the Conceptual Math Media Equate Advanced Tiles )

 

Regards,

Kareni

[JanetC]

We used Thinkwell briefly in the middle of 5th grade for Algebra 1. It really did not work for my son. Burger is a charismatic teacher, but my son just wasn't engaged enough, he saw the lectures, got it, did the tests, it was all so fast and I was really worrying about retention and getting the big picture.

 

 

Another "used Thinkwell in middle school" parent here. 

 

If you are just doing the videos and online questions, it is very easy to "skim through" and not really learn it deeply.  Are you printing out the worksheets and working problems on paper as well?  I actually skewed it -- each day she did the worksheets for "yesterday's video", then watched the next lesson and did the online questions for that video.  That way, she was working problems on paper without the video being perfectly fresh in her mind to reinforce.

[Tammi K]

Another "used Thinkwell in middle school" parent here. 

 

If you are just doing the videos and online questions, it is very easy to "skim through" and not really learn it deeply.  Are you printing out the worksheets and working problems on paper as well?  I actually skewed it -- each day she did the worksheets for "yesterday's video", then watched the next lesson and did the online questions for that video.  That way, she was working problems on paper without the video being perfectly fresh in her mind to reinforce.

 

I LIKE this idea! We are not currently using the extra worksheets for geometry. We did for algebra 1 but he was getting them correct and asked if he could just skip them.

 

But, doing it the next day might be a good idea.   Although he is currently doing the algebrareview at the end of the geometry course and I just looked at his scores online and he has all 100%s. So, if he's remembered it all from last year....    (this is the kid who memorized the Pied Piper by Browning - for fun. That thing is 20 minutes long!  The kid has a heck of a memory.)