Need engineering major advice...

[steppingstonemomma]

My son is  going into 10th grade, but is starting to DE at the local community college this year (Spanish for the fall). He wants to be an engineer that "designs and builds parts for airplanes." I'm guessing that's mechanical with a specialty in aerospace. He plans to be at the community college and then hopefully transfer to University of Maryland.

 

So here's my question. The advisor at the cc college suggested that he should get a 2yr degree in Physics or Math instead of just taking his engineering prereq's there. I've also heard this from another family who has a child planning to get a physics AA and transfer to UMD for Mechanical Engineering.

 

However I've also heard that it is better to just go straight to the university and not get a degree first because the financial aid will not be as good. (We NEED financial aid.)

 

Could anyone else offer their opinions?  2 year AA degree first (and which one?), or just get Engineering prereq's at the cc?  I only know 1 other engineer so this is hard for me to ask around in person.

Thanks!
Tiffany

[bettyandbob]

How well are the cc's engineering prereqs coordinated with UMD? 

 

Perhaps, you should communicate with the engineering dept at UMD and directly ask what courses are expected, what is the best preparation for transfer to their program. 

 

In VA, the cc system has had direct communication with VA Tech's engineering department for a long time. It was informal way back in the 70s-80s when I was in high school, but still clear exactly what math courses VT wanted from the cc, so a student could be confident of transfer. Now, the cc has formal arrangements with all the schools in the state. 

 

 

[aggieamy]

Is there anyway he can just go straight to the university?  When I was in engineering school - about 10 years ago now - the kids that went to CC were almost behind because they ended up with credits that wouldn't transfer.  

[steppingstonemomma]

Well, the university wasn't much help to guide us other than say both of them are acceptable and told me what credits would transfer. Our cc has an agreement with them so it isn't too hard.

 

And, we're trying to figure out what classes he should take for the next 3 years of high school. He could potentially finish all his engineering prereq's or even get close to finishing an AA degree by the time he graduates. So he can't really just go straight to university now.

[Teachin'Mine]

Check with the colleges.   If your son wants a lot of the college credits to transfer and to reduce the amount of time he needs to spend at the 4-year, he may want to apply as a transfer student.  If he wants the best financial aid, he may want to worry less about the transferability of the credits and apply as a freshman.  He'd likely still be given advanced standing in the areas he's already covered in community college.  This may happen based on the course title, or proof of the course content, or a placement test.  

 

For colleges and universities which had no limit on the number of college credits earned while dual enrolled, having an AA would not jeopardize the freshman status, and freshmen specific scholarships and financial aid, at almost all of them.  There were a couple of exceptions, so again contacting potential colleges is the best way to find out.  I'd even recommend that your son email the engineering dean or chair and ask their recommendations specifically.  You could also schedule some college visits and ask admissions to schedule for a few minutes for your son (and you) to speak with someone in engineering.  

[Brenda in MA]

Well, the university wasn't much help to guide us other than say both of them are acceptable and told me what credits would transfer. Our cc has an agreement with them so it isn't too hard.

When you say this, what do you mean? Who did you talk to at the U of MD? I'm wondering if you might need to find someone in the Mech Eng dept at the U of MD to speak with. The standard admissions office answer is probably that both are acceptable, but I would want to know how the kids do who take each of the different routes. I would wonder what the Mech Eng profs would recommend and how well prepared they think the students from your son's cc are.

 

I also wonder if U of MD has any kind of open house-type of admissions event for students interested in engineering. If they do, that might be a good thing to attend (even though he's young) just so you can meet some of the Mech E folks and get your questions answered.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

[regentrude]

Well, the university wasn't much help to guide us other than say both of them are acceptable and told me what credits would transfer. Our cc has an agreement with them so it isn't too hard.

 

Who did you speak to?

You need to go to the academic department your son is interested in. NOT admissions, they have no clue about the specific requirements of the degree programs. Find out who is doing the undergraduate advising in the specific engineering department and ask specific questions. They will also know which courses at the CC are up to standard and which may be sub-par; just because there is an agreement that credits transfer does not mean that the students will actually be prepared. The professors doing the academic advising for their majors will be the ones who woudl know.

[kiana]

When you say this, what do you mean? Who did you talk to at the U of MD? I'm wondering if you might need to find someone in the Mech Eng dept at the U of MD to speak with. The standard admissions office answer is probably that both are acceptable, but I would want to know how the kids do who take each of the different routes. I would wonder what the Mech Eng profs would recommend and how well prepared they think the students from your son's cc are.

 

I also wonder if U of MD has any kind of open house-type of admissions event for students interested in engineering. If they do, that might be a good thing to attend (even though he's young) just so you can meet some of the Mech E folks and get your questions answered.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

 

Second the idea of talking directly to the department. Ask them if there are courses that should absolutely positively be taken at the university, as well.

[plansrme]

What would be the advantage to getting an AA at the CC?  My guess is "none" for your son and "more than none" to the CC; perhaps their statistics get a boost when a solid student completes an AA in physics.  Surely an AA in physics is pretty useless as far as terminal degrees go, so I would concentrate on whatever will make jumping into a four-year engineering program more manageable.  My goal would be to knock out  gen ed or other humanities so that he can spread out the workload later.  Engineering is hard (aren't you glad you have me to tell you this?  :tongue_smilie: ), especially in the third and fourth years, so if he can spread the content of those final four semesters over five or six semesters, he might be able to sleep once in a while.  Or perhaps he takes a full semester off for an internship and still graduates on time. 

 

If the university has a list of CC classes that it will accept, I would pull the degree requirements for mechanical or something similar, match up gen ed requirements and take those classes first.  The engineering department is unlikely to care where he knocked out his foreign language or history requirements.  Actual math and science classes, such as calculus or physics, on the other hand, I would take if I needed credit for high school or want a preview but be prepared to retake them at the university unless your CC is well known for its rigor in the math and sciences.  

[G5052]

Who did you speak to?

You need to go to the academic department your son is interested in. NOT admissions, they have no clue about the specific requirements of the degree programs. Find out who is doing the undergraduate advising in the specific engineering department and ask specific questions. They will also know which courses at the CC are up to standard and which may be sub-par; just because there is an agreement that credits transfer does not mean that the students will actually be prepared. The professors doing the academic advising for their majors will be the ones who woudl know.

 

I agree.  You never quite know who you are dealing with in admissions.  It could be a 20-year veteran who truly knows all the details, or a new hire.

 

We're pretty much doing the same path.  My oldest will apply to the 4-year with the hope of getting merit aid, but if that doesn't come through, we have the community college with transfer agreements.  Likely there will be a little merit aid at the community college, but I would say that it is 50-50 at the 4-year.

 

Periodically one of the transfer reps from that school comes to the community college.  If they offer that type of thing, that would probably be helpful too.

[Lanny]

I suggest he look into Aeronautical Engineering.

 

He will need to be *VERY* strong in Math and in Physics and it will be better if all of his Math and Physics courses are done in the university. I think coming from a Community College, someone would have a very hard time...

[Teachin'Mine]

I suggest he look into Aeronautical Engineering.

 

He will need to be *VERY* strong in Math and in Physics and it will be better if all of his Math and Physics courses are done in the university. I think coming from a Community College, someone would have a very hard time...

 

I disagree with the advice to hold off on math and science until university.  What would you have a student who is VERY strong in math and physics study in high school?   High school level courses will only take them so far, and community college is a great way for them to study these subjects at the next level with great professors in small classes.  Community college quality does vary, but as a general rule, IMO the student who has already taken advanced math and physics at college pacing will be much better prepared for the rigors of an engineering major.  I believe they will have a much easier time at university.   If the course content was not as thorough, they could always repeat that course, but otherwise they should be good to move on.   Placing out of lower level courses will give them a distinct advantage in being able to have a lighter schedule, or having the time to pursue other interests.  

 

I'm sure there's always the exception of the student who went to a poor quality community college, took watered down courses, went to a university which didn't take a look at the syllabi for the courses, didn't test for competency, just moved them along, and they floundered.  I would also think this scenario would be much rarer than the student who thrived because they were already accustomed to college classes.

 

I agree about aeronautical engineering.

[kiana]

I suggest he look into Aeronautical Engineering.

 

He will need to be *VERY* strong in Math and in Physics and it will be better if all of his Math and Physics courses are done in the university. I think coming from a Community College, someone would have a very hard time...

 

This depends greatly on the community college.

 

Furthermore, even if the community college is weaker, he could do something like take calc 1-3 + diffeq at the cc and then retake calc 3 + diffeq at the university.

 

And that's why he needs to talk directly to the engineering department at the school and ask their advice, rather than relying on one-size-fits-all advice.

[G5052]

Just do your homework.  We have several friends who did dual enrollment math at the community college, graduated with pre-engineering degrees from the same community college, and are in their senior year at a nationally-ranked school with a transfer agreement with the community college.  No problems at all.

 

And FWIW a friend of mine from college was an engineer on the space shuttle, and needless to say he has had a rough patch although he's found a way now.  He was the top aeronautical engineering graduate in his class at Embry-Riddle and had many, many publications under his belt.  His advice is to get a mechanical engineering degree with an aero focus because it give you more options, especially because aero has its ups and downs.  

[flyingiguana]

You may not be able to predict what the financial aid will be between entering as a freshman vs. as a transfer student.  It's all a gamble.

 

I'd think about applying as a freshman and seeing what financial aid he gets, then comparing that to the amounts the school says it might give to transfer students.

 

No matter what, the cc for the first 2 years will probably be the cheaper option, if he doesn't have to repeat a class.  (If he has to repeat a LOT of classes, well, maybe not).  But he may find that there are other benefits to already being at the big U.  There may be internships or jobs that are available to freshmen and sophomores.  And these may position him better for the ones that he could get as a junior or senior.

 

I'd talk to the depts in question to see how they deal with that.  If they're super enthusiastic about transfer students and can tell you all the great things they get to do and that it doesn't take them any longer to graduate, then I would be more inclined to spend a couple years at the cc.  If they don't know, or are ambivalent, then I'd rethink the cc thing.

 

I'd also see if you can figure out what kinds of jobs students are getting right out of college.  If they're mostly getting low level jobs that any technical major could get, then I wouldn't worry too much about what he majors in or where he does it.  It's possible that jobs in specific fields, doing specific things are the result of a master's degree in a particular area, or the result of a particular internship or summer research program.  If so, then worrying about where he goes to school is only important in terms of what jobs those students have during college. 

 

My daughter graduated with a physics degree.  She's now working as a CAD analyst in industry (designing parts for other companies) -- alongside a whole bunch of kids who have engineering degrees in very specific areas.  So my one data point suggests to me that a specific area major doesn't necessarily get you into a specific job area right out of college.

 

My daughter wants to do this for a bit because she really enjoys the puzzles of figuring these parts out, but I don't think she'll want to do it forever.  Once she burns out on it, her plan is to do an engineering master's degree. 

 

I don't know what other jobs are out there.  She doesn't know either.  But this job just kind of fell into her lap, started right when she graduated, pays well, and she didn't have to move away for it.  So it was kind of the perfect thing for her to do while she catches her breath and figures out what she wants to do next.  (Maybe she'll just save up some money for a couple years, then travel or work in theater because it pays nearly nothing but she has always wanted to do it)

[flyingiguana]

Can't a student take their pre-engineering classes AND get an AA at the same time?  Without too much extra trouble?

 

Or maybe do the pre-engineering while also getting a certification in something that might be job worthy?  I don't know how mutually exclusive those are, but some of the classes might overlap.

 

BTW -- at the college where I work, we have lots of kids coming in with lots of cc credits.  Some basically have AA degrees.  Some have the actual AA degree but still enter as freshmen because they got the AA while dual enrolled.  Others do cc for a bit then come in as juniors.  They ALL get considered for financial aid and get about the same amounts, based on merit, etc.

 

However, this is a small liberal arts college, not a big state U.  I think you just need to do a lot of asking around at the U.

 

However, if it's all dual enrollment that he's considering right now, my guess is that it's not going to affect his freshman status. 

 

And I would get the early math/science out of the way.  Those are the courses he'll need to get through the engineering program faster.  Taking humanities isn't going to do him any good in terms of starting the sequences early.  Look up the prerequisites for the sophomore engineering classes at the U and take all those.  Then he'll be set as a sophomore.  If he finishes those, then move on to the prerequisites for the junior year.

 

What I've noticed is that engineering programs tend to be scripted to within an inch of the student's life.  If you miss ONE class the whole next year may be shot.  So you want to have an idea as to what that sequence is.  For that, an advisor at the U who knows their stuff is essential -- often the engineering programs have their own advisors (although they may be in the advising office).  Talking to a professor may not be your best bet, particularly with such a large school.  They probably have systems in place to make sure students don't get lost.

[flyingiguana]

Furthermore, even if the community college is weaker, he could do something like take calc 1-3 + diffeq at the cc and then retake calc 3 + diffeq at the university.

 

 

My second daughter did calc 1-2 at home, but is now going to retake it at college (instead of going the AP route).  I think she feels a lot more confident about that than jumping right into calc 3.  She's got one class she won't be completely lost in (and starting out in stem fields in college is always a big challenge)

 

I really benefited from taking calc in high school and then doing it all over again in college.

 

My 1st daughter did through calc 3 as dual enrollment/AP, and was able to use all of those for credit.  However, the DE calc 3 course was a pretty big challenge.  She'd only had AP calc before, and it wasn't all it could be.  She had to learn a lot of calc1-2 while IN calc 3.  Wasn't fun.  And if she'd had a full course load instead of just high school dual enrollment, it might have been a bit disastrous.  I wouldn't recommend that.

 

 

[kiana]

My second daughter did calc 1-2 at home, but is now going to retake it at college (instead of going the AP route).  I think she feels a lot more confident about that than jumping right into calc 3.  She's got one class she won't be completely lost in (and starting out in stem fields in college is always a big challenge)

 

I really benefited from taking calc in high school and then doing it all over again in college.

 

My 1st daughter did through calc 3 as dual enrollment/AP, and was able to use all of those for credit.  However, the DE calc 3 course was a pretty big challenge.  She'd only had AP calc before, and it wasn't all it could be.  She had to learn a lot of calc1-2 while IN calc 3.  Wasn't fun.  And if she'd had a full course load instead of just high school dual enrollment, it might have been a bit disastrous.  I wouldn't recommend that.

 

Hmm, I was saying that he might be able to just repeat the second half of the sequence while solidifying his grasp on the first half rather than start at the beginning of the whole sequence. I absolutely agree with you that jumping from a weak calc 1 + 2 to a strong calc 3 would be unnecessarily challenging, but I think that going from a weak calc 1-3 + de to a strong calc 3 + de would be totally reasonable.

 

I would think of it like doing a weak algebra 1 + 2 and then going to a stronger algebra 2 rather than starting over again at algebra 1.

[flyingiguana]

I've seen so many kids rush through calc and not really grasp it, and I suspect a lot of advisors have seen the same thing. So one may find that a student who has had some calc (even a lot of calc) will be told to go back to the beginning of the sequence when starting college -- just so you know what's behind that advice if you happen to run into it.

 

My advice to my 2nd daughter (ie -- why I didn't make a huge push to make her take the AP calc test) had to do with the fact that I think she may appreciate having an easy freshman year in college. There are already going to be a lot of adjustments (as she didn't do any dual enrollment). And she wants to be involved in a lot of musical groups, which is going to take a lot of her time. So it's just as well she will be taking 2 classes she's already basically had in the college version -- calc and physics. Hopefully they'll just be review.

 

This way she can think about tacking on a 2nd major in music while she gets through the first classes of her intended major in either physics or computer science. Otherwise, it looked like it was going to be an either/or situation, and I hate to have her close off options so early.

 

My first daughter did something similar by taking a lot of DE classes, thus freeing up time in college to pursue a 2nd major in theater, but this meant she got dropped into the sophomore physics classes, which were even more time consuming than the freshman ones.

 

It's frustrating -- there are only 4 years of college. One to two majors is about all one can do effectively. And if you do 2 majors, you miss out on more extracurriculars.

 

I keep pointing out that grad school exists for a reason. Go explore something else for awhile that way.

[flyingiguana]

I finally remembered the other anecdote I was going to tell -- a neighbor girl down the block did an engineering degree. And now she's going to work for NASA.

 

BUT -- the reason she has that NASA job is because she did an internship there. And ANYONE in a technical field has the possibility of getting an internship like that. I know we had one gal from our college accepted to that same program (she ended up going to JPL instead) and we don't even have an engineering program at our school. (At our small school we have lots of kids get accepted to summer programs at these sorts of places.)

 

You need a solid background in the basics. And you need good grades and good letters. That's what gets the internships. It's not so much going to the big name schools and the exact right major. And then you need to apply to the internships. Apply to a lot. There are a lot of other kids trying for them too.

[flyingiguana]

Hmm, I was saying that he might be able to just repeat the second half of the sequence while solidifying his grasp on the first half rather than start at the beginning of the whole sequence. I absolutely agree with you that jumping from a weak calc 1 + 2 to a strong calc 3 would be unnecessarily challenging, but I think that going from a weak calc 1-3 + de to a strong calc 3 + de would be totally reasonable.

 

I would think of it like doing a weak algebra 1 + 2 and then going to a stronger algebra 2 rather than starting over again at algebra 1.

Yeah, well, thanks to my weak high school teacher, I think I was a lot better off doing the whole thing over. He did kind of give me the basics, so it wasn't a complete surprise in college. But given how foundational calc is in later physics/engineering classes, I might err on the side of putting a kid back a bit farther than necessary, rather than stretching them too far because they looked like they might be promising. At worst, they'd get in some review. As long as they saw it as review, rather than being put in the stupid class, it would probably work out better.

 

I think, as parents, that we have a tendency to see our kids strengths and not so much their weaknesses. We also don't really have the overarching view that many advisors have. So we tend to place our kids higher than is good for them.

 

I'm just mentioning that -- having been that parent. It worked out ok, but I had to do a LOT of tutoring. If a parent didn't have the know how to do that tutoring, if necessary, I'd be inclined to suggest a kid go back a step rather than forward.

 

I also wouldn't expect that AP calc is really going to prepare a kid for calc 3. Seems to me it kind of goes off in some other direction that is not necessarily what college classes do (least, around here). As a result, there are things a kid misses.

 

If possible, I'd try to do calc all as one sequence at one college, too. Departments tend to coordinate those classes so they aren't covering things in different semesters from each other. Calc isn't as bad in this regard as some other areas (biology, for example, can be just all over the place), but there are still things that might get inadvertently skipped. It wouldn't be a disaster, probably, but it may make the next course in the sequence harder when it didn't need to be.

 

But, all that said, there are any number of kids who didn't follow this advice and who did fine.

[Julie of KY]

Definitely talk to the university engineering department.

 

When I was in engineering, I had engineering classes that were spread over four years. The first year engineering classes were prereqs for the second year of engineering classes that were then prerequisites for the third and then fourth years. For anyone that transferred in having done a lot of physics and math, they still had to start with the first year engineering classes and couldn't speed up that sequence.

 

Look at what transferred in as well as what still has to be taken and how many years that will take.

[Lanny]

Is there anyway he can just go straight to the university?  When I was in engineering school - about 10 years ago now - the kids that went to CC were almost behind because they ended up with credits that wouldn't transfer.  

 

The other part of this problem is that coming from a CC, a student might well need to take Remedial courses, because they may not be at the level they are at "on paper" from the CC. Graduating in 4 school years is unlikely for a student transferring in from a CC, IMHO.

[Miss Marple]

I think much depends on the system you are in.  I have 3 in engineering fields (petroleum, mechanical, chemical).  Around here, the local CC coordinates with one of the state colleges such that a student can get a 2 year degree and move into engineering at the state 4 year school.  The other state school does not have that agreement.  Two of my boys go to the "other" school.  

 

If your CC has an agreement with the 4 year school your son wants to attend, I would certainly consider the 2 year degree (BTW, the state school gives a generous "transfer" scholarship to these students).  If he is unsure of where he wants to study engineering, I'd simply do the basics and definitely find out whether the science and math courses at the CC are considered equivalent and will transfer credits.  My boys did DE and completed basic freshman courses:  history/govt, maths up to calculus (so they went right into calculus), composition, and some electives.  The "other" school did not consider the CC math to be equivalent although they did accept the physics.

 

I would also encourage you to consider an internship while your son is still in high school.  If you are in an area that has aerospace industry you should be able to find something.  That will allow him to determine if that's the area he really is interested in.  And if it is an interest, it will open doors to more lucrative internships in his college career.  The summer my 2nd son spent shadowing physicians was the best use of his summer - he determined that he's be totally bored being a physician lol (his daddy is a surgeon).  

 

Best wishes to your son!  

[Teachin'Mine]

The other part of this problem is that coming from a CC, a student might well need to take Remedial courses, because they may not be at the level they are at "on paper" from the CC. Graduating in 4 school years is unlikely for a student transferring in from a CC, IMHO.

 

Unless of course that like most potential engineers they are very good at math and science and don't need remedial classes at the CC.  And also that they took math and science - calculus sequence/diffeq, calculus based physics, and chemistry - instead of waiting to take them at the university.  :D

 

Four years for an engineering major is generally not likely even if they go straight to the university.  It seems that five years is fairly common and I would expect about the same for a transfer student coming from a CC who took the recommended math and science sequence.

[Frosch]

My son is attending engineering college this fall.  (Chemical engineering with biological intent.)

He took DE credits at two different CC’s.  I really didn’t care if the credits transferred, I was more interested in using the classes for college acceptance.  

Which worked apparently!

I’ll try to explain how it worked out for him.

 

He didn’t go for an AA, he just took classes to “prove†his level of work.  He did a pre-calculus course, 2 semesters of english, 2 semesters of chemistry, a semester of biology, and a history course.  

 

Of the 25 credits, 19 will count towards his major and the math course placed him in his engineering calculus course without having to take the placement test.

I didn’t want him to take CC calculus because I didn’t think it would adequately prepare him for 2 more semesters of calculus.  (Many of his peers are either retaking Calc I or have only placed in Calc II.)  

 

His college required 2 CC credits for english to satisfy their one english course for engineering majors.  

 

His CC chemistry professor felt he was extremely prepared to go straight into Organic Chemistry, so he’s moving on with that one.  (My son was a chemistry tutor at the CC.)  

 

I do regret that he didn’t take statistics in CC, since that is a mandatory general education class required by his college.

 

Thankfully, his homeschool foreign language credits were accepted with no testing by the college.  But each school has different requirements. (His required 2 years with a grade of “A†or three years with “C†or better.)  

 

All that said, it wont speed up his graduation at all, but it does give him some extra time that he can go for a minor or even a double major.

 

He was not a transfer student.  Even with his credits, he’s coming in as a freshman.  

[Frosch]

Unless of course that like most potential engineers they are very good at math and science and don't need remedial classes at the CC.  And also that they took math and science - calculus sequence/diffeq, calculus based physics, and chemistry - instead of waiting to take them at the university.  :D

 

Four years for an engineering major is generally not likely even if they go straight to the university.  It seems that five years is fairly common and I would expect about the same for a transfer student coming from a CC who took the recommended math and science sequence.

 It depends on the university.  My son’s is pushing 4 and done.  They don’t want them lingering around unless they opt to take a co-op year.

They want their students taking about 17 credits each semester by plan.  I was pleasantly surprised by the plans.

[Teachin'Mine]

Yes, that's great if they can do it in four years.  But I think that five is not unusual either due to scheduling and/or the ability to take the required credits each semester as the courses are rigorous.   If this being newly  pushed, it would be interesting to see what percent of the engineering students were able to graduate in four years.  The number should be much higher than at universities where the student's aren't scheduled with the intent to graduate "on time". 

 

For those transferring from CC it would also depend on whether some introductory engineering courses were available and how long it would take to get through that sequence in minimal time at the university.  I would think that the summer sessions could help with catching up, but an internship might make that difficult, and as has been mentioned in another thread, internships are important for on the job skills and for job offers prior to graduation.