Ivy League Miseducation

[creekland]

A few years ago I looked up Ivy schools.  I was surprised to find out that I really didn't know which schools were Ivy other than a few of them.   I thought Stanford was on the list and it isn't.

 

Dawn

 

I think that's pretty common to be honest.  It's a sports grouping akin to the ACC/SEC, etc.  I can't name all the schools in those groupings and don't worry about it.  I mainly know the 8 Ivies because I generally have to explain (to some) about them and I'll use some of the lesser known ones as part of my explanation.

 

Brown

Columbia

Cornell

Dartmouth

Harvard

Princeton

U Penn

Yale

[Barbara H]

SO TRUE.

 

I hear parents in my area talking about this all the time; setting up particular experiences for their kid to give them something to write about on their essay.

 

Genuine emotion tends to come through in student essays. If they don't care about the activity it tends to come through. It may not be obvious to parents, but it is tends to be pretty obvious to people who read a lot of student essays. That doesn't mean that every kid who gets into a highly selective school wrote a genuine or deep essay, they may have been accepted for other reasons. It is to say that real emotion tends to come through in essays so it is never a good idea to try to contrive to make your child look like something they aren't. The best essays often aren't about the big deep save the world experiences but instead about stuff the student actually cares about.

[Laura Corin]

In my microculture, we have very few parents who push for high tier schools or sign up activities in order to play the admission's game. 

 

 

Around here, the best universities don't care about extracurriculars, unless they are related to the specific degree (if you are applying for medicine, you need to have experience in a caring profession; if you are applying for English, success in a poetry competition might help).

 

L

[creekland]

Genuine emotion tends to come through in student essays. If they don't care about the activity it tends to come through. It may not be obvious to parents, but it is tends to be pretty obvious to people who read a lot of student essays. That doesn't mean that every kid who gets into a highly selective school wrote a genuine or deep essay, they may have been accepted for other reasons. It is to say that real emotion tends to come through in essays so it is never a good idea to try to contrive to make your child look like something they aren't. The best essays often aren't about the big deep save the world experiences but instead about stuff the student actually cares about.

 

This would be true if all students wrote their own essays and didn't have anyone else do anything more than proofread them.  (That's what happens at our school - even English teachers only proofread for grammar and punctuation issues.)

 

I'm of the understanding (meaning hearsay) that at some places, while students might write the rough draft, it's hardly the same essay after it's run through college counselors & more.  There have been student comments on cc regarding having to come up with whole different essays if their original is not deemed good enough to work with.  According to a parent thread on cc, some schools even require teacher recommendations to be run through the college counselor before being sent on.

 

There definitely is a whole different world out there trying to "beat the system."  I'm just of the opinion that, when it happens, it happens all over - not just Ivies. I doubt schools that look so closely at essays would not do so for Bucknell or Penn St because they are "inferior."

 

On the plus side... these things don't have to happen to get accepted.  It does help to have hooks though.  We live in a rural area which is a hook for many kids at school (if they go far enough away for school).  That might have helped the gal I talked about earlier make it into Stanford.  I'm of the belief that homeschooling is a hook for many schools too - IF the homeschooler can prove they have the foundation needed to succeed.

 

[Momling]

I did my undergrad at a small private liberal arts college and went for a PhD to Yale and have taught at several public universities and community colleges.  They all have their particular atmospheres, but I don't think Yale students are any more or less zombie-like or sheepish than students at other universities.  There was a time not so long ago when Yale was entirely educating rich white boys whose fathers and grandfathers had all attended Yale. Those were more likely to be the days of zombies and sheep.  Nowadays, the student body is far more diverse, and their opinions and pasts and futures are just as varied as students of other universities. 

[freesia]

I've been thinking about this overnight. My background: I come from a family with a number of Ivy grads (Harvard, Princeton and Yale)over 3 generations. I went to a highly selective woman's college. Many of my friends went Ivy or highly selective. I did not see any sheep like behavior or timidness or anything else negative. Like Muttichen, I find my Ivy friends and relatives interesting and engaging.

 

The only thing I do notice now as an adult is that those who went Ivy/highly selective are not happier than those who did not. In fact, many are leading very high stressed lives and their children are under a lot of pressure. The psychic quality of life is lower where we live now (among the very well educated) than it was when we lived among folks who had gone to lower tier schools.

 

But I am not saying that Ivy leads to poor life, either. It may set you on a path to a high stress lifestyle, but you have many, many choices along the way to step off of that path. And, undeniably, there are folks from lower tier schools who have made the same decisions.

 

What I am trying to say, really,is that if you tossed my friends and relatives up in the air and mixed them up, you wouldn't be able to tell which went Ivy/Highly selective and which went to a local business school. You wouldn't be able to tell which sister (among my cousins) went to Princeton and which didn't by anything in their lives. And, certainly, the Princeton educated one is not more timid than the others! Nor is my Yale educated brother more timid and sheeplike than my Arizona State grad brother. That is ridiculous.(And NONE of you would accuse my Yale, Georgetown, and Harvard educated SIL of timidness by any stretch of the imagination!)

 

I absolutely think the experiences at an Ivy level school are outstanding and I treasure the way I was taught to think and communicate. However, there are lots of other paths in life. I don't think anything is gained by cutting down the elite schools. We need to realize that our kids will be fine if they choose other schools or are rejected at an Ivy. More than fine. But we don't need to somehow convince ourselves that they are okay because "the Ivys aren't that great anyway."

[hepatica]

I absolutely think the experiences at an Ivy level school are outstanding and I treasure the way I was taught to think and communicate. However, there are lots of other paths in life. I don't think anything is gained by cutting down the elite schools. We need to realize that our kids will be fine if they choose other schools or are rejected at an Ivy. More than fine. But we don't need to somehow convince ourselves that they are okay because "the Ivys aren't that great anyway."

 

I'm confused. I thought you said you went to a selective women's college. Those are the sorts of places the author lists as great alternatives. In fact, he specifically mentions Holyoke as an example. 

 

I don't think people are just trying to convince themselves that the Ivies are not that great because they didn't get to go there. I think the author and others are sincerely trying to ascertain if the atmosphere is as ideal as it is typically assumed to be.

[freesia]

I'm confused. I thought you said you went to a selective women's college. Those are the sorts of places the author lists as great alternatives. In fact, he specifically mentions Holyoke as an example. 

 

I don't think people are just trying to convince themselves that the Ivies are not that great because they didn't get to go there. I think the author and others are sincerely trying to ascertain if the atmosphere is as ideal as it is typically assumed to be.

I did go to a selective women's college. That's why I said Ivy-level. I see most of the top tier schools as being of the same level. I agree with folks about that entirely.

 

But I disagree with him that the folks who are ending up at the Ivies are somehow worse off than folks who go to other schools.

 

I think that the children who are being pressured to achieve in order to go to top schools are worse off in the long run, though. But I disagree that there a necessarily more of them at an Ivy school. I think there are more children there who have internal motivation to achieve.

[hepatica]

There's definitely a confusion in the article as to how wide the "Ivies and their ilk" extends. In some places he seems to include all highly selective institutions, and in others he suggests alternatives such as Wesleyan and Holyoke (which are still highly selective). So perhaps that distinction will be cleared up in the actual book, but it is a flaw in the article. But, in his defense, he is looking at the school's educational philosophy and attitude, and I think that is where he is making his distinction.

 

Part of the problem might just be perspective. Living in the northeast, everyone knows the Ivies. But, as pointed out up thread, in many parts of the country they are not really on the radar. 

 

It might also be the case that students who attend Ivies think they are experiencing real diversity. Again, perspective is everything. Harvard might just be the most diverse environment they have ever encountered. That does not mean that it is really diverse. I once knew a high schooler who wrote an essay about how he lived in an average house on an average street and led an average middle class life. In fact, he lived in a gated community and attended an expensive private school. But for him, that was average. If you have never known anything else...

 

 

 

[catz]

But I disagree with him that the folks who are ending up at the Ivies are somehow worse off than folks who go to other schools.

 

 

I do agree with this. 

 

My thought is though does an Ivy education justify the expense and worse yet, any long term debt?  If you can afford it outright, fine or if you have a scholarship student great.  I know a young woman who ended up with out of this world ACT scores and could go to Smith cheaper than our local university, so that turned out to be a great choice for her.  But, if a young adult carries a huge debt for just an undergrad degree with no prospects of something like work study you might get as a grad student, is it worth it?  We are in the midwest and I used to help hire tech workers (degreed software engineers (BS/MS/DS) mostly).  The favored candidates and best workers were uniformly those that came out of competitive big ten public tech programs, and not out of ivies/high end private.  My DH is still seeing the same thing in that industry. 

 

I personally had an amazing college experience at one of these schools myself with highly engaged students.  Students can have a really spectacular undergrad experience at many institutions without killing their early adult hood with debt. 

[freesia]

I do agree with this. 

 

My thought is though does an Ivy education justify the expense and worse yet, any long term debt?  If you can afford it outright, fine or if you have a scholarship student great.  I know a young woman who ended up with out of this world ACT scores and could go to Smith cheaper than our local university, so that turned out to be a great choice for her.  But, if a young adult carries a huge debt for just an undergrad degree with no prospects of something like work study you might get as a grad student, is it worth it?  We are in the midwest and I used to help hire tech workers (degreed software engineers (BS/MS/DS) mostly).  The favored candidates and best workers were uniformly those that came out of competitive big ten public tech programs, and not out of ivies/high end private.  My DH is still seeing the same thing in that industry. 

 

I personally had an amazing college experience at one of these schools myself with highly engaged students.  Students can have a really spectacular undergrad experience at many institutions without killing their early adult hood with debt.

As I've been considering this for my children, I am coming to the conclusion that no, it does not justify the debt. We have also decided that we, as a family, cannot justify the expense and time stress involved with many extracurricular that would make our children more attractive to the highly selective schools. Nor will we push our children to take 12 AP tests. If one of ours becomes self-directed and motivated themselves, we will do what we can to support them, but we will not be the drivers of the experience. We don't want our children and our families lives to be as stressed filled as the ones we see around us.

 

We, will, however continue to provide a rich, "rigorous" home education program, teaching our children to think and communicate well.

[SeaConquest]

 

But, thinking about what colleges should do is different than thinking about what kinds of traits these elite institutions favor. The Ivies select for specific qualities. Few students apply to Harvard on a whim and just magically get in. Most of these students have had Harvard admission as their goal (or parents' goal) since they were toddlers. They are driven to compete and succeed whatever the cost. Why else would you jump through all the necessary hoops. They are driven by the very reasonable fear that they may not make it. That fear motivates and cripples them, and it is not something that just goes away once they are there. They have been taught that it is important not just to succeed but to succeed at the very highest levels. Name matters, status matters, prestige matters. Anything less is a failure. 

 

I have seen this sad process first hand. A few years ago a top student here was denied admission to Harvard. She ended up at Wellsley (hardly a bad place to land). To this day, her parents are still bitter. It is clear that anything less than Harvard was just not good enough. This student used to regularly spend afternoons in my dh's classroom in tears from the pressure. She couldn't see past the one goal. I expect the Ivies are filled with these students. 

 

I was this student, but I don't believe that it was because of where I went to school. Many gifted students struggle with perfectionism and never learn to be gritty in the face of failure (my massive "failure" was that I didn't do well enough at Stanford Law School to be a Supreme Court clerk). Throughout my life, I have been praised for my achievements. And I learned very early on that I needed to continue to perform at increasingly competitive levels in order to receive that praise. The perfectionism-achievement-praise cycle can be like a drug, and I was seriously hooked until I hit rock bottom, so to speak. I still struggle mightily with these issues today -- giving up on things if they don't come easily to me, doing things because of their perceived prestige/the opinions of others, etc. -- but I am at least aware of the issues (and praise my children for their efforts/pursuing their passions instead).

 

In my experience, students at elite schools, by and large, exhibit the type of intellectual curiosity and emotional grit that the author describes. However, a small subset of these students struggle with crippling perfectionism and anxiety issues into adulthood, as I did. But I saw no evidence of causality to support the author's thesis.    

[creekland]

It might also be the case that students who attend Ivies think they are experiencing real diversity. Again, perspective is everything. Harvard might just be the most diverse environment they have ever encountered. That does not mean that it is really diverse. I once knew a high schooler who wrote an essay about how he lived in an average house on an average street and led an average middle class life. In fact, he lived in a gated community and attended an expensive private school. But for him, that was average. If you have never known anything else...

 

This is likely the key for many who are full pay or even half pay.

 

When I was about to enter the 10th grade, my grandfather died and my dad decided we would go to FL for a year to help my grandmother readjust to her "new" life.  He didn't like the public schools there compared to the one I attended, so he was able to find a private school for me to test at.  I tested in - and got a full scholarship to go there.  I didn't think anything of it - it was just what I was told to do.

 

The first day of school - as kids were discussing what they did for the summer - wow, was I amazed.  There were all sorts of foreign trips and even a wedding (of a sibling) that took place on a LARGE rented cruise ship with the married couple helicoptered to a private island for their honeymoon and all guests getting paid for planes (first class) back from Europe.  And there I sat, listening, in my thrift shop bought clothes (our only uniforms were for gym class).

 

I could keep up academically or even lead ;) so I found friends, esp since we did tend to study in groups.  The school was VERY rigorous, but due to my good public high school in NY, I wasn't behind at all.  Within a couple of weeks kids were asking me about myself.  When they found out how much my dad made (18K/year) one sort of gasped and said they had a painting in their living room that cost  more than that.  On the private school bus home, I found out many had waterfront homes (ocean front).  The bus went into several gated communities.  There were also plenty of boats on canals in back yards.

 

The kids, however, were fantastic (at least, my friends were).  We were allowed to go out to eat (though often had lunch delivered - no cafeteria) and they ALWAYS paid for mine knowing I wouldn't be able to participate if they didn't.  They invited me to their homes - and to the country club for meals (no prices on those menus).  I worked at a riding stable where some kept their horses.  I got rides to it (from parents) in Mercedes and BMWs.

 

We talked about backgrounds a bit.  It was somewhat like an exchange program.  They learned that the "stable help" could be fun and educated and I learned that the wealthy kids were kids just like my friends back home, albeit with a LOT more disposable income and opportunities.

 

To them, their life was "normal."  To me, mine was.  Out of 100 who graduated that year or maybe the year before (I was only 10th grade, so only saw stats used to promote the school), 98 went to college, 1 joined dad's business, and one was training for a French Olympic team.  Colleges ranged from highly selective to state schools.

 

But if I hadn't been there by a fluke of timing... well... in my class there weren't any others with my level of "normal" so who knows if any of us would have seen that "kids are kids" with the same feelings, fears (aside from financial), trials, and tribulations.  I could have dismissed them as "elite."  They could have dismissed me as "lower middle class."

 

By 11th grade I was back in NY, having been able to take all the 10th grade NY regents and getting upper 90s or 100s on them just as I would have if I'd stayed "home," but I cherish the "extra" education I was able to encounter instead.

 

I no longer stereotype people by what they do or how much money they have.  I refuse to treat anyone differently because they're a millionaire or top notch lawyer/doctor/businessman/whatever or if they're my local meter reader or fast food server earning minimum wage.  We're all humans and are more similar than not.  I've no idea if my friends kept their "exchange" knowledge or not as this was well before the internet and social networking online became common.  I've totally lost track of them.

 

Colleges differ in content, but college graduates don't differ too much in personalities.  The whole spectrum exists at all types.  However, pending who they've had contact with, they just might NOT know how the "other half" lives (either "other" half).

[SadieMarie]

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/28/new_republicivy_league_hypocrisy_watch_we_all_went_to_elite_schools_but_you_shouldnt/

 

Here is a nice rebuttal.  

[Anacharsis]

Here's a funny. I mentioned in a professional setting here about six weeks ago that middle ds might apply to Cornell. The response was, "Cornell? What's Cornell? Ain't he smart enough to be a Spartan?" I swallowed a loud snort!

 

That's actually really refreshing. It always seems odd to me when a New England education is considered a requirement for those from outside the region -- it reminds me too much of those stories about colonials sending their native-born children back to England to receive a "proper education", as though their own country were somehow inferior.

My thought is though does an Ivy education justify the expense and worse yet, any long term debt?  

 

But the true Ivies have such enormous endowments that they can offer tremendous financial aid package to those who get in.  Typically, graduates of these schools leave with much less debt than any other school type.

 

The dirty little secret of college admissions is that it is often the least selective LACs, with little endowment money to share, that leave students with those huge debt burdens.

 

[Muttichen]

But the true Ivies have such enormous endowments that they can offer tremendous financial aid package to those who get in.  Typically, graduates of these schools leave with much less debt than any other school type.

 

 

 

The top Ivies (H/P/Y) have always been cheaper than any other schools my kids have gotten into, including those with merit scholarships.

[chiguirre]

That's actually really refreshing. It always seems odd to me when a New England education is considered a requirement for those from outside the region -- it reminds me too much of those stories about colonials sending their native-born children back to England to receive a "proper education", as though their own country were somehow inferior.

 

There are Ivy "ilk" in every region. The same criticisms could apply to Duke, Stanford, U of Chicago, etc. By no means do you have to go to New England to go to a prestigious, highly selective school. That the actual Ivies are in New England and the Mid Atlantic states is due to them being a low-rent sports league, not to some nefarious imperial ambition.

 

[swimmermom3]

Walk around the Brown campus someday. I lived next door to it for years.  Of all the Americans that are mindless sheep, I would not put those kids high on the list.

 

We know one. That boy is no sheep - NO WAY!

[SeaConquest]

Bumping this topic with a related article from the New Republic:

 

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119321/harvard-ivy-league-should-judge-students-standardized-tests