Article: Real vs Fake Persecution CC

[chiguirre]

So Poppy's list should also include Christians who don't feel persecuted and are a bit embarrassed about all the hoopla.

 

Between the mildly annoyed non-Christians and the mildly embarrassed Christians, we should outweigh the righteous persecutees and the TV shills. But, they've got more skin in the game and are willing to put a lot more effort into it than we are to shut it down. So, like many things in life, the people who feel strongest about something can stymie the large majority of luke warm opponents. Those situations either fade away or something happens that galvanizes the luke warm majority. We'll see in the next decade which happens. My bet is on fade away.

[Heather in Neverland]

I've been thinking about the "church picnic" scenario and this is probably going to sound awful, but this is often what it looks like in my life:

 

Her: Would little Johnny like to come over and play on Sunday?

Me: I'm sorry, we are tied up on Sunday - we have church in the morning and a church picnic in the afternoon.

Her: Oh. Okay - how about next Saturday?

Me: ok, sounds good!

 

Then I leave. Then a few minutes later I think, "Oh crap. I just told her I was going to my church's picnic and I didn't even invite her. She probably thinks I'm one of those horrible, exclusive Christians that only hang out with other Christians. Gosh, I'm such a jerk."

 

But I promise I'm not a jerk, I'm just an introvert and I don't offer a lot of invitations to anything really. It's not personal and it's not that I don't care about you. I just sometimes forget that other people actually enjoy being invited to things even though I don't. And the truth is, at that moment, I'm probably trying to figure out a way to get out of going to the picnic myself. :)

 

This thread also made me think of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine gets mad because she finds out her boyfriend is a Christian and he hasn't tried at all to convert her... (Time for a laugh, this is getting too serious!)

 

[Scrub Jay]

I've been thinking about the "church picnic" scenario and this is probably going to sound awful, but this is often what it looks like in my life:

 

Her: Would little Johnny like to come over and play on Sunday?

Me: I'm sorry, we are tied up on Sunday - we have church in the morning and a church picnic in the afternoon.

Her: Oh. Okay - how about next Saturday?

Me: ok, sounds good!

 

Then I leave. Then a few minutes later I think, "Oh crap. I just told her I was going to my church's picnic and I didn't even invite her. She probably thinks I'm one of those horrible, exclusive Christians that only hang out with other Christians. Gosh, I'm such a jerk."

 

 

I would never even expect someone to invite me to a church picnic if they brought it up.  Is that supposed to be an expectation?  To be invited to a church event if your friend happens to mention it casually during conversation? 

 

[PeacefulChaos]

I would never even expect someone to invite me to a church picnic if they brought it up.  Is that supposed to be an expectation?  To be invited to a church event if your friend happens to mention it casually during conversation? 

 

I don't think it's something people expect, but as the person saying it sometimes I might think, 'Oh, crap... I just told them I can't do ___ because I have (insert social event here).  I didn't even think to ask if they'd like to come.  I hope that wasn't rude!'

That's all.  I think across the board people think like this, don't they?  what type of event doesn't matter... just that it's a social event anyone could come to.  :)

[marbel]

I would never even expect someone to invite me to a church picnic if they brought it up.  Is that supposed to be an expectation?  To be invited to a church event if your friend happens to mention it casually during conversation? 

 

I think it depends on the friendship, and, I guess, a lot of other things.  I could see arranging a playdate with a mom, the date of the church picnic coming up, and say "hey, want to join us?"

 

Where I live some of the church picnics are pretty much open to anyone.   They can be a lot of fun and there is no religious teaching involved. There are also some carnivals put on by churches which are community events to which no invitation is required but that is different.  I have a church picnic in my backyard every year and though I think I have only invited someone once (my next door neighbor), I can see inviting someone, particularly someone new in the area who was looking to get to know people. 

 

I was thinking about the invitation thing a little more too.  I am also an introvert so I related to Heather's post. LOL, including the part about thinking how to get out of going to the picnic. But I was also thinking about the person upthread (maybe more than one?  not sure) who thought that even inviting someone to a church picnic was over the line.  I find that attitude really sad, to be honest.  So often I hear and read how people here (US in general) feel disconnected, lonely, friendless.  People move into a new area and can't make friends.  Well, I guess that would not be surprising if simple invitations are so fraught with danger.   Do we really have to assess someone's spiritual state before we can invite them to something related to our own?   Can't people take such an invitation in a spirit of goodwill and refuse if it is not interesting to them?  Obviously I am not talking about people being pushy.

 

Maybe it's because people are afraid that there's going to be an altar call or something?   I can assure you if you come to my church that will not happen. The only call you'll get is one to stay for coffee and snacks after church, or a phone call from the pastor if you ask for one.

 

 

 

 

 

[LisaKinVA]

I've been watching this thread with mixed feelings -- perhaps what Christians are referring to as "persecution" is more the chilling effect that is felt by current laws, interpretation of laws, or simply what prevailing opinion says is right conflicts with moral teachings.  The conflict between positive rights (what the government says people are entitled to using recent history as an example..."free" birth control) and negative rights (what the government isn't supposed to do e.g.: impinge on the free exercise of religion, and with it the pursuit of happiness)

 

I have felt, and often feel, that certain "truths" many Christians believe are no longer allowable points of civil discourse -- without fear of a pretty hate-filled spew-age of ad-hom attacks and with a complete lack of regard for any scientific, social, or other evidence that can be used to support such positions.  While most may not feel that is persecution-per-se, It is not a far stretch in how it can feel/be interpreted by those on the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Free]

But if people are going to argue that there is no objective truth, but rather multiple truths based on the perspective of each person, then no one can say "there is no persecution of Christians in the US" because people are (apparently) feeling persecuted.

Since this is probably referring to my posts, I should clarify that I do not subscribe to the idea that there is only one correct belief, only one valid perspective, only one right solution to a problem.

 

But neither do I believe that all ideas, beliefs and perspectives are equally valid and correct, nor do I know anybody who thinks that way.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I have felt, and often feel, that certain "truths" many Christians believe are no longer allowable points of civil discourse -- without fear of a pretty hate-filled spew-age of ad-hom attacks and with a complete lack of regard for any scientific, social, or other evidence that can be used to support such positions.  While most may not feel that is persecution-per-se, It is not a far stretch in how it can feel/be interpreted by those on the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Considering the hottest topics in recent years have centered around homosesexuality/gay marriage and birth control, I find the bold statement interesting as the fundamentalist position is based solely on religious views and lacks any evidence of any kind to support it.

 

And yes, certain "truths" that certain Christians (not all of us hold the same views) are no longer being used to determine public policy, which I see as a good thing.  Civil rights should not be restricted due to the opinions of one group.

 

And no, not being able to restrict the rights of your fellow citizens is not persecution.  Yes, it feels that way, but we heard the same comments during integration.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

And you know what really burns my biscuits? This claim that being told you can no longer control your fellow citizens is persecution.  You know what was persecution? Gays for years being told they were lesser, unnatural, and worse than their fellow citizens.  Having their love criminalized .  Seeing their consenting relationships with other adults being compared to pedophilia and bestiality. Watching as groups who proclaim love for the fellow man spend millions to make sure they cannot have equal rights.  Having their families mocked and scorned.  Knowing they have to hide who they are in certain places or they could end beaten or worse.  And that doesn't even cover a portion of what they have experienced.

 

And then to add the cherry on top, as public opinion slowly shifts and they see society finally starting to treat them as full citizens, they get to hear the other side cry persecution because they can't keep "those gays" in their place anymore.

SMH

[Guest]

What does the frequent and knee jerk 'I'm being persecuted ' response serve? What is the purpose of it?

 

For Fox News - selling the war on Christmas and similar stories about how much it stinks to not be an unquestioned majority anymore is profitable.

 

For people who feel persecution is a measure of righteousness - it makes them happy.

 

Non Chistians - mild annoyance.

 

So I guess everyone wins or at least doesn't lose much??

 

But from a religious perspective, it does not seem useful or enlightening.

 

This is untrue.  Those who are persecuted endure it because they understand why it is happening... that doesn't mean they like it... it does not make them happy.  You have to know this.  

[Scrub Jay]

And you know what really burns my biscuits? This claim that being told you can no longer control your citizens is persecution.  You know what was persecution? Gays for years being told they were lesser, unnatural, and worse than their fellow citizens.  Having their love criminalized .  Seeing their consenting relationships with other adults being compared to pedophilia and bestiality. Watching as groups who proclaim love for the fellow man spend millions to make sure they cannot have equal rights.  Having their families mocked and scorned.  Knowing they have to hide who they are in certain places or they could end beaten or worse.  And that doesn't even cover a portion of what they have experienced.

 

And then to add the cherry on top, as public opinion slowly shifts and they see society finally starting to treat them as full citizens, they get to hear the other side cry persecution because they can't keep "those gays" in their place anymore.

SMH

 

Hear, hear!

 

[Guest]

And you know what really burns my biscuits? This claim that being told you can no longer control your fellow citizens is persecution.  You know what was persecution? Gays for years being told they were lesser, unnatural, and worse than their fellow citizens.  Having their love criminalized .  Seeing their consenting relationships with other adults being compared to pedophilia and bestiality. Watching as groups who proclaim love for the fellow man spend millions to make sure they cannot have equal rights.  Having their families mocked and scorned.  Knowing they have to hide who they are in certain places or they could end beaten or worse.  And that doesn't even cover a portion of what they have experienced.

 

And then to add the cherry on top, as public opinion slowly shifts and they see society finally starting to treat them as full citizens, they get to hear the other side cry persecution because they can't keep "those gays" in their place anymore.

SMH

 

 

I totally disagree with the way things were phrased here.  Just because a person believes the Bible when it says homosexuality is a sin, does not mean they think gays are "less than" other people, nor do they hate them.  Nor would they mock, scorn, or beat them (or worse).  

 

You are putting your perspective on a whole group of people, but that is just not the way ANY Christian I know feels.  You are misrepresenting by that statement.  You are unable to understand another perspective just because you disagree.  

[poppy]

I've been watching this thread with mixed feelings -- perhaps what Christians are referring to as "persecution" is more the chilling effect that is felt by current laws, interpretation of laws, or simply what prevailing opinion says is right conflicts with moral teachings. The conflict between positive rights (what the government says people are entitled to using recent history as an example..."free" birth control) and negative rights (what the government isn't supposed to do e.g.: impinge on the free exercise of religion, and with it the pursuit of happiness)

 

I have felt, and often feel, that certain "truths" many Christians believe are no longer allowable points of civil discourse -- without fear of a pretty hate-filled spew-age of ad-hom attacks and with a complete lack of regard for any scientific, social, or other evidence that can be used to support such positions. While most may not feel that is persecution-per-se, It is not a far stretch in how it can feel/be interpreted by those on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Are you willing to list the truths that inspire hate filled spewage? All I can think of is attempts to change or impact laws that would impact people who do not share your beliefs. (Which is in line with your first paragraph , really. )But I'd be interested to hear if there are others .

 

I do not spew hate against any religious belief , but I do get fiesty if you want your faith to impair my freedom. And I have a hard time sympathizing with cries of persecution when it's efforts to rally against my own moral framework.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I totally disagree with the way things were phrased here.  Just because a person believes the Bible when it says homosexuality is a sin, does not mean they think gays are "less than" other people, nor do they hate them.  Nor would they mock, scorn, or beat them (or worse).  

 

You are putting your perspective on a whole group of people, but that is just not the way ANY Christian I know feels.  You are misrepresenting by that statement.  You are unable to understand another perspective just because you disagree.  

 

That is how gays were treated for years, and still are by many.  This isn't even a debatable position.  The facts are this did happen, public laws were directed at them, religious groups raised funds to fight against gays getting legal rights, politicians ran on platforms that were against gay rights to garner fundamentalist support, and so forth.  Gay bashing was (and is) common and when reported was met with victim blaming. 

 

You may not like the facts, but that doesn't change the facts. 

[Caroline]

I totally disagree with the way things were phrased here. Just because a person believes the Bible when it says homosexuality is a sin, does not mean they think gays are "less than" other people, nor do they hate them. Nor would they mock, scorn, or beat them (or worse).

 

You are putting your perspective on a whole group of people, but that is just not the way ANY Christian I know feels. You are misrepresenting by that statement. You are unable to understand another perspective just because you disagree.

I don't know how you can argue with what happened and is happening to gay people at the hands of religious people.

[Scrub Jay]

That is how gays were trearted for years, and still are by many.  This isn't even a debatable position.  The facts are this did happen, public laws were directed at them, religious groups raised fuds to fight against gays getting legal rights, politicians ran on platforms that were against gay rights to garner fundamentalist support, and so forth.  Gay bashing was (and is) common and when reported was met with victim blaming. 

 

You may not like the facts, but that doesn't change the facts. 

 

Exactly.  And defining homosexuality as a sin while also voting against their basic human right to marry their significant other is flat out telling them that they are "less than."  Whether or not that means a person hates them, I don't know.  But they are certainly not treating them as an equal. 

 

[albeto.]

I totally disagree with the way things were phrased here.  Just because a person believes the Bible when it says homosexuality is a sin, does not mean they think gays are "less than" other people, nor do they hate them.  Nor would they mock, scorn, or beat them (or worse).  

 

You are putting your perspective on a whole group of people, but that is just not the way ANY Christian I know feels.  You are misrepresenting by that statement.  You are unable to understand another perspective just because you disagree.  

 

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the behavior rather than assuming intent. There exists a positive, and strong correlation between aggressive and violent behavior towards LGBTQ people and self-identified Christians who reference the bible as a source of moral order. No two Christians will have the exact same interpretation of the bible, no two Christians will come out with the same "big picture," so identifying who is the Real Christian is impossible (I keep asking for someone to start an "Ask a Real Christian thread but no one will). The Christians with which you socialize may or may not behave in aggressive or violent ways, but if they vote for programs that systematically repress certain rights based on sexual orientation and identity, they are positively contributing to the state-sanctioned persecution of LGBTQ individuals. Whether or not they personally contribute to persecution as well is irrelevant. Other Christians do. Lots of them. 

[marbel]

Since this is probably referring to my posts, I should clarify that I do not subscribe to the idea that there is only one correct belief, only one valid perspective, only one right solution to a problem.

 

But neither do I believe that all ideas, beliefs and perspectives are equally valid and correct, nor do I know anybody who thinks that way.

 

I don't think I was referring to your posts specifically; if I'm referring directly to something I quote it. The idea of there being no objective truth isn't limited to this board! 

 

As to the bolded; if I said all ideas, etc. are equally valid and correct, I'd love to see it so I can correct it because I don't believe that either!

[BrookValley.]

And you know what really burns my biscuits? This claim that being told you can no longer control your fellow citizens is persecution.  You know what was persecution? Gays for years being told they were lesser, unnatural, and worse than their fellow citizens.  Having their love criminalized .  Seeing their consenting relationships with other adults being compared to pedophilia and bestiality. Watching as groups who proclaim love for the fellow man spend millions to make sure they cannot have equal rights.  Having their families mocked and scorned.  Knowing they have to hide who they are in certain places or they could end beaten or worse.  And that doesn't even cover a portion of what they have experienced.

 

And then to add the cherry on top, as public opinion slowly shifts and they see society finally starting to treat them as full citizens, they get to hear the other side cry persecution because they can't keep "those gays" in their place anymore.

SMH

 

:iagree:  x 1,000. Because a like wasn't enough.

[Guest]

That is how gays were trearted for years, and still are by many.  This isn't even a debatable position.  The facts are this did happen, public laws were directed at them, religious groups raised funds to fight against gays getting legal rights, politicians ran on platforms that were against gay rights to garner fundamentalist support, and so forth.  Gay bashing was (and is) common and when reported was met with victim blaming. 

 

You may not like the facts, but that doesn't change the facts. 

 

Those are not the facts the way you are portraying them.  You are calling a whole group of people the same based of the actions of a few. Also, people gay bash from many different religions... you are laying the blame on only one religion.

[Guest]

I don't know how you can argue with what happened and is happening to gay people at the hands of religious people.

 

I can argue it because I am not doing it.

[Guest]

Exactly.  And defining homosexuality as a sin while also voting against their basic human right to marry their significant other is flat out telling them that they are "less than."  Whether or not that means a person hates them, I don't know.  But they are certainly not treating them as an equal. 

 

 

You just don't understand the Christian POV, obviously.  I have no hate toward anyone.  I don't think anyone is less than.  At the same time, I don't have to vote for something I think is against the Bible and not agreeing with it means I am being unfair.  

[ChocolateReignRemix]

You just don't understand the Christian POV, obviously.  I have no hate toward anyone.  I don't think anyone is less than.  At the same time, I don't have to vote for something I think is against the Bible and not agreeing with it means I am being unfair.  

 

Can you at least understand that your Christian POV doesn't hold true for many in practice?  Can you grasp how referring to another group of citizens as an "abomination", "unnatural", "deviants", "the cause of moral decline" by some Christians can lead to acts of bigotry and violence against gays?

 

Also, you are always free to vote as you choose.  Just as the rest of us are free to vote the way we want and to do our best to sway public opinion in our direction.  Doing so, and therfore puting your vote on the losing side, is not persecution.  What you are slowly experiencing is that majority of us do not want the religious beliefs of a minority holding back the rights of our fellow citizens.

[poppy]

You just don't understand the Christian POV, obviously. I have no hate toward anyone. I don't think anyone is less than. At the same time, I don't have to vote for something I think is against the Bible and not agreeing with it means I am being unfair.

If it was you - if someone said they didn't hate you or think you were lesser, but your marriage should be forbidden and is against the Bible - how would you feel about that? Would you feel you were being treated as an equal?

For al I know you are actually in an interracial marriage so are already in that exact position.

[Caroline]

I can argue it because I am not doing it.

She didn't say you did it. She said these things were (and are) done to gay people. She didn't mention Jinnah by name anywhere.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Those are not the facts the way you are portraying them.  You are calling a whole group of people the same based of the actions of a few. Also, people gay bash from many different religions... you are laying the blame on only one religion.

 

I am laying blame on fundamentalist Christianity and I do so with no hesitation, as it is the driving force behind the fight against equal protection for gays.  It is also a vocal segment of Christianity, and the largest hotbeds of anti-gay sentiment reside in areas where it is the strongest.  That is not a coincidence. 

 

I always think you are missing the direct cause and effect of certain words and actions from the Christian community and what many gays have experienced.

[Guest]

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the behavior rather than assuming intent. There exists a positive, and strong correlation between aggressive and violent behavior towards LGBTQ people and self-identified Christians who reference the bible as a source of moral order. No two Christians will have the exact same interpretation of the bible, no two Christians will come out with the same "big picture," so identifying who is the Real Christian is impossible (I keep asking for someone to start an "Ask a Real Christian thread but no one will). The Christians with which you socialize may or may not behave in aggressive or violent ways, but if they vote for programs that systematically repress certain rights based on sexual orientation and identity, they are positively contributing to the state-sanctioned persecution of LGBTQ individuals. Whether or not they personally contribute to persecution as well is irrelevant. Other Christians do. Lots of them. 

 

Albeto, even though I disagree with you, I love your posts.  I'm not even sure I can explain why.  You are always able to explain your POV in a way where I don't sense any hostility.  I'm not saying everyone else has hostility in their posts... I guess that's not the right word.  You don't dislike people because they have a different POV.  Or, maybe you do, but it sure isn't shown in your posts (at least all the ones I have seen over the years).  The air about your posts is just... different.

 

Let me see if I can explain my POV better (I always try not to because it seems to anger people).  Let's just say that I am right about being a Christian... that God/Jesus exist and the Bible is truly God's Word, and we are supposed to follow His Word.  Then, there are people who don't believe for various reasons and are against the Christians because they don't want to pass a law they feel is unfair (even though, in this case, it is the right thing to do because it's God's Word).  The Christians do not show hate toward the unbelievers or any supporters of this law... they just don't support it and will not vote the law in because it is against God's Word.  Are they wrong?  This is assuming the above is true (the Bible is the Word of God).  Who are they supposed to listen to?  God or man?  

[Guest]

Can you at least understand that your Christian POV doesn't hold true for many in practice?  Can you grasp how referring to another group of citizens as an "abomination", "unnatural", "deviants", "the cause of moral decline" by some Christians can lead to acts of bigotry and violence against gays?

 

Also, you are always free to vote as you choose.  Just as the rest of us are free to vote the way we want and to do our best to sway public opinion in our direction.  Doing so, and therfore puting your vote on the losing side, is not persecution.  What you are slowly experiencing is that majority of us do not want the religious beliefs of a minority holding back the rights of our fellow citizens.

 

I can agree that the Christian POV doesn't hold true for many in practice, yes.  Example: Westboro Baptist Church.  Anyone mistreating a gay person is going to answer to God.  At the same time, not agreeing with the lifestyle does not mean someone is a bigot.

 

I do not think being on the losing side of a vote is persecution.  I think name-calling and insults are verbal persecution.  That is all I have been saying.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Albeto, even though I disagree with you, I love your posts.  I'm not even sure I can explain why.  You are always able to explain your POV in a way where I don't sense any hostility.  I'm not saying everyone else has hostility in their posts... I guess that's not the right word.  You don't dislike people because they have a different POV.  Or, maybe you do, but it sure isn't shown in your posts (at least all the ones I have seen over the years).  The air about your posts is just... different.

 

Let me see if I can explain my POV better (I always try not to because it seems to anger people).  Let's just say that I am right about being a Christian... that God/Jesus exist and the Bible is truly God's Word, and we are supposed to follow His Word.  Then, there are people who don't believe for various reasons and are against the Christians because they don't want to pass a law they feel is unfair (even though, in this case, it is the right thing to do because it's God's Word).  The Christians do not show hate toward the unbelievers or any supporters of this law... they just don't support it and will not vote the law in because it is against God's Word.  Are they wrong?  This is assuming the above is true (the Bible is the Word of God).  Who are they supposed to listen to?  God or man?  

 

Christians themsleves are not being asked to do anything that violates their beliefs.  They are being asked to let others who don't hold those beliefs to live their lives as they choose.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I can agree that the Christian POV doesn't hold true for many in practice, yes.  Example: Westboro Baptist Church.  Anyone mistreating a gay person is going to answer to God.  At the same time, not agreeing with the lifestyle does not mean someone is a bigot.

 

I do not think being on the losing side of a vote is persecution.  I think name-calling and insults are verbal persecution.  That is all I have been saying.

 

True, but discriminating or denying rights to others does make one a bigot.

[albeto.]

Those are not the facts the way you are portraying them.

I disagree. CR said, "That is how gays were trearted for years, and still are by many." This can be confirmed by objective data. It needs no such "portrayal" to be understood. She said, "...public laws were directed at them, religious groups raised funds to fight against gays getting legal rights, politicians ran on platforms that were against gay rights to garner fundamentalist support..." A great many examples can be found to illustrate such public behavior. A simple internet search will confirm this as fact. She said, "Gay bashing was (and is) common and when reported was met with victim blaming." Current news stories will provide examples of just this thing. In no way did CR say this was by definition part and parcel of the Christian religion, just that it is directly related. Reading popular Christian explanations and suggestions for homosexuality will illuminate the correlation here, even if it is not one to which you personally subscribe.

 

You are calling a whole group of people the same based of the actions of a few.

I think it's more accurate to say she is calling out persecutory behavior as it correlates with a particular religious argument (ie, homosexuality is a sin, endangers society, etc)

 

Also, people gay bash from many different religions... you are laying the blame on only one religion.

That's because there is only one religion relevant to this discussion. She's not laying the blame solely on the religion, but is pointing out the correlation between the religion and a public expression of it. 

[kiana]

Let me see if I can explain my POV better (I always try not to because it seems to anger people).  Let's just say that I am right about being a Christian... that God/Jesus exist and the Bible is truly God's Word, and we are supposed to follow His Word.  Then, there are people who don't believe for various reasons and are against the Christians because they don't want to pass a law they feel is unfair (even though, in this case, it is the right thing to do because it's God's Word).  The Christians do not show hate toward the unbelievers or any supporters of this law... they just don't support it and will not vote the law in because it is against God's Word.  Are they wrong?  This is assuming the above is true (the Bible is the Word of God).  Who are they supposed to listen to?  God or man?  

 

I guess I don't see why we should be trying to pass laws mandating that other adults follow Christian laws.

 

We should follow God's Word because we choose to, and not because there is a civil law and attached penalty compelling us to do so.

[Guest]

If it was you - if someone said they didn't hate you or think you were lesser, but your marriage should be forbidden and is against the Bible - how would you feel about that? Would you feel you were being treated as an equal?

For al I know you are actually in an interracial marriage so are already in that exact position.

 

Okay, Poppy, let's look at that.  I am, in fact, interracial and I really dislike when people use that example, because nowhere in the Bible does God forbid interracial marriages.  He does forbid homosexuality (not just in the OT for those who use that argument).  

 

I'll help you with your argument, though.  I was married before (my ex was abusive, admitted to cheating, and at one point abandoned me while I was pregnant) and got a divorce.  Some religious groups say that if I do not "annul" the first marriage, my second marriage is not recognized by God.  They hold that position.  Another religious group says that the second marriage is invalid no matter what, and that to do right by God, I need to "divorce" my current husband (even though we are not really married) and go remarry the first one (even though, we are supposedly married in God's eyes).  

 

None of that matters, because I defer to what God says in His Word.  Divorce/remarriage is allowed if the spouse was adulterous, if the believer was left by the unbeliever, if someone is widowed.  Also, the Bible actually forbids someone from divorcing a second spouse and remarrying their first spouse.  So, that clears up many misconceptions.  If God says you cannot divorce the second spouse, He obviously acknowledges the marriage.  

 

So, all that to say that some groups have issue with my marriage, but I am not bothered by it because I know what God's Word says and I do my best to follow it.  

[Vera]

:iagree: x 1,000. Because a like wasn't enough.

Me too

[Guest]

She didn't say you did it. She said these things were (and are) done to gay people. She didn't mention Jinnah by name anywhere.

  

 

We were talking about what has happened at the hands of religious people, specifically Christians, so that would mean me.  I've never done those things, so it's a false statement.

[Guest]

Christians themsleves are not being asked to do anything that violates their beliefs.  They are being asked to let others who don't hold those beliefs to live their lives as they choose.

 

I think they are... they are asked to support something that is against their beliefs, and if they don't they are called bigots and other names... to what?  Shame them into submission?

[Guest]

True, but discriminating or denying rights to others does make one a bigot.

 

Case in point.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Okay, Poppy, let's look at that.  I am, in fact, interracial and I really dislike when people use that example, because nowhere in the Bible does God forbid interracial marriages.  He does forbid homosexuality (not just in the OT for those who use that argument).  

 

I'll help you with your argument, though.  I was married before (my ex was abusive, admitted to cheating, and at one point abandoned me while I was pregnant) and got a divorce.  Some religious groups say that if I do not "annul" the first marriage, my second marriage is not recognized by God.  They hold that position.  Another religious group says that the second marriage is invalid no matter what, and that to do right by God, I need to "divorce" my current husband (even though we are not really married) and go remarry the first one (even though, we are supposedly married in God's eyes).  

 

None of that matters, because I defer to what God says in His Word.  Divorce/remarriage is allowed if the spouse was adulterous, if the believer was left by the unbeliever, if someone is widowed.  Also, the Bible actually forbids someone from divorcing a second spouse and remarrying their first spouse.  So, that clears up many misconceptions.  If God says you cannot divorce the second spouse, He obviously acknowledges the marriage.  

 

So, all that to say that some groups have issue with my marriage, but I am not bothered by it because I know what God's Word says and I do my best to follow it.  

 

But opponents to interracial marrriage DID make religious arguments against it using the Bible as their basis. 

 

So should your second marriage not been allowed under the law if groups with a different interpetation than yours were opposed to it?  Don't they have to adjust to the fact that your marriage is legal under the laws that protect us all, in the same way you should accept gay marriages that go against your beliefs? 

[kiana]

We were talking about what has happened at the hands of religious people, specifically Christians, so that would mean me.  I've never done those things, so it's a false statement.

No, sorry.

 

Saying "this has been done by Christians" does not mean "all Christians do this". It means "some Christians do this".

 

For a non-controversial example: A sentence like "Calculus has been passed by high school students" does not mean "All high school students pass calculus".

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Case in point.

 

Were those who opposed interracial marriages bigots?

[Guest]

I disagree. CR said, "That is how gays were trearted for years, and still are by many." This can be confirmed by objective data. It needs no such "portrayal" to be understood. She said, "...public laws were directed at them, religious groups raised funds to fight against gays getting legal rights, politicians ran on platforms that were against gay rights to garner fundamentalist support..." A great many examples can be found to illustrate such public behavior. A simple internet search will confirm this as fact. She said, "Gay bashing was (and is) common and when reported was met with victim blaming." Current news stories will provide examples of just this thing. In no way did CR say this was by definition part and parcel of the Christian religion, just that it is directly related. Reading popular Christian explanations and suggestions for homosexuality will illuminate the correlation here, even if it is not one to which you personally subscribe.

 

 

I think it's more accurate to say she is calling out persecutory behavior as it correlates with a particular religious argument (ie, homosexuality is a sin, endangers society, etc)

 

 

That's because there is only one religion relevant to this discussion. She's not laying the blame solely on the religion, but is pointing out the correlation between the religion and a public expression of it. 

 

 

I'm saying that just because part of a group mistreats someone, doesn't mean the whole group does the same thing.  Even further, the people in the group not mistreating anyone are against those that do.  Yet, people on the other side just want to look at the people not doing the right thing just because they disagree with the core beliefs.

 

Other religions are also not in support of homosexuality.  

[ChocolateReignRemix]

We were talking about what has happened at the hands of religious people, specifically Christians, so that would mean me.  I've never done those things, so it's a false statement.

 

Christians were fed to lions by Romans.

I am a Christian but have never been fed to a lion.

Is saying Christians were fed to lions by Romans now a false statement?

[albeto.]

Albeto, even though I disagree with you, I love your posts.  I'm not even sure I can explain why.  You are always able to explain your POV in a way where I don't sense any hostility.  I'm not saying everyone else has hostility in their posts... I guess that's not the right word.  You don't dislike people because they have a different POV.  Or, maybe you do, but it sure isn't shown in your posts (at least all the ones I have seen over the years).  The air about your posts is just... different.

 

Thank you. I appreciate that.

 

Let me see if I can explain my POV better (I always try not to because it seems to anger people).  Let's just say that I am right about being a Christian... that God/Jesus exist and the Bible is truly God's Word, and we are supposed to follow His Word.  Then, there are people who don't believe for various reasons and are against the Christians because they don't want to pass a law they feel is unfair (even though, in this case, it is the right thing to do because it's God's Word).  The Christians do not show hate toward the unbelievers or any supporters of this law... they just don't support it and will not vote the law in because it is against God's Word.  Are they wrong?  This is assuming the above is true (the Bible is the Word of God).  Who are they supposed to listen to?  God or man?

 

If someone does not believe, why would they listen to the source from which this perceived errant belief comes? Let me turn the tables on you a bit to explain. Let's imagine the demographic of the United States evolved such that Muslims become the most populated religious group in our lifetime. The Muslims would be the largest voting block, and their beliefs would be represented in Congress because of the many Muslim legislators. These Muslims would do their best to assure you that we are supposed to follow Allah's word, that passing certain laws may seem unfair, but only because you and your children don't really understand Allah's word. Are you wrong? Who are you supposed to listen to? Allah or man? 

 

I see your question and I interpret "God" in the same way as "Allah." I interpret it as "my belief about divine revelation." Why should I hold your belief above reason and rational thought? Why should I assume your belief is accurate and not CR, who is also a Christian? How would I determine to whom God divinely revealed his genuine desire and intent? You ask me to trust you and my knee-jerk reaction is to say, "Why?" Do you see why I desire an Ask A Real Christian thread? These things are of vital importance to those of us who are constantly encouraged to trust God, as explained by believers. 

 

[Guest]

I guess I don't see why we should be trying to pass laws mandating that other adults follow Christian laws.

 

We should follow God's Word because we choose to, and not because there is a civil law and attached penalty compelling us to do so.

 

Should we vote for a law that is AGAINST our beliefs?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Should we vote for a law that is AGAINST our beliefs?

 

The laws and rights of all citizens should not be infringed upon by the religious beliefs of some.

[Guest]

But opponents to interracial marrriage DID make religious arguments against it using the Bible as their basis. 

 

So should your second marriage not been allowed under the law if groups with a different interpetation than yours were opposed to it?  Don't they have to adjust to the fact that your marriage is legal under the laws that protect us all, in the same way you should accept gay marriages that go against your beliefs? 

 

They had to do it with a lot of verse twisting.  I've studied up on this one.  There is no verse that says, "People of different races may not marry."  It does say inter-faith couples should not marry, and those are the verses people twisted into a racial thing.  The Bible specifically says (in clear words) who may not marry.  Also, there are people who married outside their race in the Bible and it was never condemned.  

 

The second question is more tricky... but I would say that it is obvious the Bible was being twisted.  You can't look in there and find a verse saying the above (People of different races may not marry).  Also, the Bible clearly explains the marital situations that we discussed earlier (divorce/remarriage).  The Bible also clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.  I know that people are going to be angry that I said that, but it's in there.  I'm not relaying that to be mean or hateful.  

 

I'm getting a little nervous about derailing this thread onto the topic of homosexuality.  I know this can spiral out of control at any time.  I think it might be best to not continue it.  I'm guessing I have more responses since I've been typing this one for a bit, and I don't want to ignore anyone.  At the same time, I don't want to help a decent thread get locked.

[albeto.]

I'm saying that just because part of a group mistreats someone, doesn't mean the whole group does the same thing.  Even further, the people in the group not mistreating anyone are against those that do.  Yet, people on the other side just want to look at the people not doing the right thing just because they disagree with the core beliefs.

 

Other religions are also not in support of homosexuality.  

 

It doesn't matter if the entire group acts in a united way. In no time in all history has all Christians been united in any thing, belief or action. Unless you can support the claim that your personal belief is the Real Christian belief, the accurate one, the one that genuinely reflects the will and mind of your god, then the most you can do is offer your opinion as one of many. 

 

Other religions are not relevant to this discussion. 

[Guest]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

 

 

If someone does not believe, why would they listen to the source from which this perceived errant belief comes? Let me turn the tables on you a bit to explain. Let's imagine the demographic of the United States evolved such that Muslims become the most populated religious group in our lifetime. The Muslims would be the largest voting block, and their beliefs would be represented in Congress because of the many Muslim legislators. These Muslims would do their best to assure you that we are supposed to follow Allah's word, that passing certain laws may seem unfair, but only because you and your children don't really understand Allah's word. Are you wrong? Who are you supposed to listen to? Allah or man? 

 

I see your question and I interpret "God" in the same way as "Allah." I interpret it as "my belief about divine revelation." Why should I hold your belief above reason and rational thought? Why should I assume your belief is accurate and not CR, who is also a Christian? How would I determine to whom God divinely revealed his genuine desire and intent? You ask me to trust you and my knee-jerk reaction is to say, "Why?" Do you see why I desire an Ask A Real Christian thread? These things are of vital importance to those of us who are constantly encouraged to trust God, as explained by believers. 

 

LOL, I think that thread might be interesting, but would probably spiral out of control and many people would be "moderated" and possibly banned.  :P

 

Okay, if the Muslim religion became majority and laws passed in their favor... and they were the correct religion... than what can I say?  If they were incorrect, it would be a disaster.  I see the point that everyone thinks they are right in this way.  I cannot, however, vote for a law that is against what I feel is the correct way.  Can you at least understand that?  Can you answer the questions in my scenario?

[Guest]

The laws and rights of all citizens should not be infringed upon by the religious beliefs of some.

 

Hey, can I ask you something?  If you are uncomfortable answering here, can you send me a PM?  Do you, as a Christian, just not believe the parts of the Bible that say homosexuality is a sin?  Or is it just that you don't agree with the above (quote)?

[Guest]

It doesn't matter if the entire group acts in a united way. In no time in all history has all Christians been united in any thing, belief or action. Unless you can support the claim that your personal belief is the Real Christian belief, the accurate one, the one that genuinely reflects the will and mind of your god, then the most you can do is offer your opinion as one of many. 

 

Other religions are not relevant to this discussion. 

 

True, but there are many who just look to the Bible only to see what God wants us to do.  They take it just as worded and that is it.  I've done this and that is how I have found that many teachings aren't really correct.  I believe this is the only way to unite all the different denominations.  Throw out personal opinions and do the best we can to look only at what the Bible says.

 

Why not?