Jasperstone Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Whoops, I exaggerated. It's only $23,000! What a bargain!!! And her name is Joyce Meyers. Sigh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I'm not familiar with him, but his books look interesting. Do you have a favorite? Just be aware that Peter Singer is also the guy who said, "Killing a defective infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person. Sometimes it is not wrong at all" and "...killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living. That doesn’t mean that it is not almost always a terrible thing to do. It is, but that is because most infants are loved and cherished by their parents, and to kill an infant is usually to do a great wrong to its parents." Lovely. (I'm not trying to derail this interesting and thoughtful thread and am not looking to start a debate. I just don't think Peter Singer's books are a great place to look for moral guidance or edification.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 So, is it the money or the teachings? I find those to be two completely separate things, UNLESS they are scamming from those giving to their ministry. If they are selling books, as some of these are, then whatever, book sales are a business. I take issue with all of their teachings, so I don't "follow" them, but if people buy their books, well, that is on those people. Well, all but Billy Graham. The Freemason thing, really? There are all kinds of crazies out there spouting all sorts of things.......I guess everyone can choose to believe them if they want. Yep, same goes to him plus other things.Apparently, he is a 32rd Freemason. He is behind the pushing of the Ecumenical Movement. And he has also taught some dodgy stuff. So he isn't in the clear either. ;-)Same and more goes to Benny Hinn!!! How blind are the people following him? Seriously!Oh, also Kenneth Copeland, and what's that woman's name with the $40,000 toilet? Her name fails me at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 No "and". I thought it was a striking visual. I saw it earlier and thought it was more useful than looking at the fellow's mugshot. When I hit google to share the image, I saw the story about the theft. I thought it was a lot of money. If $600,000 is the typical weekend donation income, that is over $7 million annually. I agree with you about churches not being tax exempt. I'm sure the church does some charitable work, but income towards the community itself is not charity. My math was wrong at 3 a.m., it's not $7 million annual, JO's church's annual income is closer to $30 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Anne Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Reminds me of this: http://www.religionnews.com/2014/02/24/megachurch-pastor-steven-furticks-spontaneous-baptisms-spontaneous/ That is scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 So, is it the money or the teachings? I find those to be two completely separate things, UNLESS they are scamming from those giving to their ministry. If they are selling books, as some of these are, then whatever, book sales are a business. I take issue with all of their teachings, so I don't "follow" them, but if people buy their books, well, that is on those people. Well, all but Billy Graham. The Freemason thing, really? There are all kinds of crazies out there spouting all sorts of things.......I guess everyone can choose to believe them if they want. Book sales are a business. a church that makes $30 million annually is a business as well IMO. There is nothing wrong with it. Capitalism at work. But I just don't think it's what Jesus had in mind when He called for shepherds to tend His flock. His teaching and his practices don't reflect my beliefs and I'm surprised anyone would read the Gospels and come away with the lessons he (Joel) teaches. It's just not a reflection of the religion as I understand it. But any steps towards reflection and self awareness are not a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 So exactly how much should a church "make" when it has that many members. If a church is half the size buy "makes" half the amount, are they wrong too? How about a church that is 1/100th the size and brings in 1/100th of the amount? The church has 50,000 members. If each member gave $12 per week, they would get $30M per year. I would say that is not excessive. I am quite sure their operating costs with 50,000 members is far greater than my church of 2,000 members. The church also supports many overseas projects and missionaries. Again, I see his teaching as separate. I don't hate him or think he is the antichrist, but I don't follow him. Book sales are a business. a church that makes $30 million annually is a business as well IMO. There is nothing wrong with it. Capitalism at work. But I just don't think it's what Jesus had in mind when He called for shepherds to tend His flock. His teaching and his practices don't reflect my beliefs and I'm surprised anyone would read the Gospels and come away with the lessons he (Joel) teaches. It's just not a reflection of the religion as I understand it. But any steps towards reflection and self awareness are not a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 IWhat is it you think he teaches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Some of this has already been discussed, but the meat is not always there. I am not going to discuss it further because I think your question is leading me into an argument or to prove some point you have . IWhat is it you think he teaches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Its not just his teachings. Its not just his money. Its not just the size of his church. Its all those things taken together (and some more but I've got stuff to do) that tell me that something isn't right about this guy. And yes, I feel the same way about others that have also been mentioned. I'm not saying he's not a christian or he's going to hell - but I think he looks a lot like a snake-oil salesman and I'm going to warn people about him whenever I can. He's creepy and I think he hurts more than helps. Disclaimer: I've never read his books. My dad used watch him on TV. I saw an interview where he talked about his mother who was convinced that God wanted her to have a swimming pool and when she got one that was proof of answered prayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Then why the heck does he have a private plane! I seriously cannot understand defending the wealth of a man of god. Poverty, chastity, obedience, anyone ? It's ugly that we don't consider ourselves as having excess wealth. Compared to most of the world we are incredibly rich. But it's even uglier for a preaching man to be making anything more than a humble living for himself and his family. I hope he donates everything he makes from his books/tours beyond a salary that is the median wage. Religion should never be a business and profit has no place in it. From what I've been told, traveling via private aviation is MUCH more convenient and less time-consuming than traveling via commercial flights. Think owning your own car vs. having to rely on public buses. For someone who travels frequently and who has the funds to purchase a plane, I can definitely see the appeal. As I mentioned before, I have acquaintances who own private planes that they lend out to charity when the owner isn't using them. I have no idea if Joel Osteen does the same, but IF he does, then I think that could fit fine with being a follower of Christ. Having his own plane would allow him to spend less time waiting in lines and more time working for his ministry and spending time with his family, and it could be used to help those in need during the times he's not using it himself. Win-win situation. Would you expect all Christians to sell their privately-owned cars and take the bus? After all, owning a car is a luxury as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Some of this has already been discussed, but the meat is not always there. I am not going to discuss it further because I think your question is leading me into an argument or to prove some point you have . Not really, I honestly was curious to see what someone who made no connection between his wealth and his preaching thought. I'd go further than saying the meat isn't there. He is a Christian preacher who does not talk about Jesus, sin, salvation, or compassion. I think that is really odd. I am not sure what the point if him is. I will say , from what I've seen if him , he certainly isn't as risible as some of the prosperity gospel preachers out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I have said several times now that he makes his money off of his BOOKS. If I thought he skimmed off the top of his church members' tithing, I would have something else to say. He is an author. I don't begrudge Tom Clancy his money, so why should I attack another author just because he happens to also be a pastor. This is separate from the churches' operating costs IMO. The $32M they bring in, I would indeed be interested in their accountability and such as I don't have all the details, but that to me is a separate issue than his income from the sales of his books. Not really, I honestly was curious to see what someone who made no connection between his wealth and his preaching thought. I'd go further than saying the meat isn't there. He is a Christian preacher who does not talk about Jesus, sin, salvation, or compassion. I think that is really odd. I am not sure what the point if him is. I will say , from what I've seen if him , he certainly isn't as risible as some of the prosperity gospel preachers out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 His books are his preaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Wow. I think the harsh criticism here of megachurches, those who attend, and the Osteen's in particular is unnecessary and unspiritual. I live near Houston; I know people who attend/attended Osteen's church. I know professionals and trained lay people who work/worked there. It's not MY thing, but I don't want to get in the way of benefit to others. Today in my spiritual space, I feel like "god" is too big for me to decide that people can only be truly helped in settings I approve of. I also think there is a threshold of wealth that, if crossed, a spiritual leader is considered suspect. Osteen, Ramsey, Oprah...... I don't begrudge success - even massive, unfathomable success - earned by people using their unique skills and luck. I think it's awesome, and I don't assume others are hurt by it. I believe in an abundance universe. Yes, people have been hurt by prosperity theology. They've also been hurt by traditional theology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I don't think anyone thinks that in purchasing his books they are giving directly to God like they do when they give tithe money. That is the difference. His books are his preaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I don't think anyone thinks that in purchasing his books they are giving directly to God like they do when they give tithe money. That is the difference. OK. That's not how I understand tithing, but, I am not part of his ministry. I don't want to give the impression that I think he's a crook. Or a fraud like Jim Bakker. I don't. Just talking through the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Then why the heck does he have a private plane! I seriously cannot understand defending the wealth of a man of god. Poverty, chastity, obedience, anyone ? It's ugly that we don't consider ourselves as having excess wealth. Compared to most of the world we are incredibly rich. But it's even uglier for a preaching man to be making anything more than a humble living for himself and his family. I hope he donates everything he makes from his books/tours beyond a salary that is the median wage. Religion should never be a business and profit has no place in it. I don't know why he has a plane. Maybe someone gave it to him - something I have heard has happened a lot in ministries. Maybe it is cheaper than flying several people through the airlines all of the time. You are right that compared to most of the world, we have a lot. He takes no salary from the church but his books were apparently big sellers. I don't know how much he donates. I agree that religion is not a business. But I'm simply not prepared to judge him without all of the facts. Nor should anyone judge him for not taking vows of "poverty, chastity, and obedience" who has not done so him/herself. We already know that these vows are clearly not for everyone - like chastity, for example, unless we want the human race to die out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Wow. I think the harsh criticism here of megachurches, those who attend, and the Osteen's in particular is unnecessary and unspiritual. I live near Houston; I know people who attend/attended Osteen's church. I know professionals and trained lay people who work/worked there. It's not MY thing, but I don't want to get in the way of benefit to others. Today in my spiritual space, I feel like "god" is too big for me to decide that people can only be truly helped in settings I approve of. I also think there is a threshold of wealth that, if crossed, a spiritual leader is considered suspect. Osteen, Ramsey, Oprah...... I don't begrudge success - even massive, unfathomable success - earned by people using their unique skills and luck. I think it's awesome, and I don't assume others are hurt by it. I believe in an abundance universe. Yes, people have been hurt by prosperity theology. They've also been hurt by traditional theology. Totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 He inherited a fortune and ministry of 15,000 people. I'm not saying it makes him a bad person, at all. I don't think he IS a bad person. But he's not exactly the self-made man, which is what your post makes it sounds like. I never said that he was.?? How is that relevant, that he became the pastor of his father's church, after John Osteen died? Lots have done that. I am not sure he did "inherit a fortune". He happens to have written some books on the side that sold well. Here are some things that he said in this article: Osteen evokes his late father, John Osteen, from whom he inherited the church’s leadership, to explain his image of God. His father, he said, was loving and kind, but when he needed to be stern, he was. "I don't preach anything that I don't live." - Joel Osteen, Lakewood Church, Houston, Tx. “I see God as a force that is for us,†Osteen said. “People say you don’t talk enough about hell, fire and damnation. I think most people are already pushed down enough about life. I think one reason our ministry has touched the masses is because I don’t get up there and tell them how bad they are. I tell them what they can become.†Osteen says he gives millions of dollars away each year to charity, he just doesn’t make it public. And he visits and prays regularly for patients of a nearby Houston medical center. “My message is God has you in the palm of his hands. Nothing that happens is a surprise to him,†Osteen said. “I tell them don’t get bitter, don’t get angry, don’t let one disappointment, one bad break, one injustice ruin the rest of your life. We may not understand it. I don’t understand it, but I still believe God is good and I keep my trust in Him for bringing me through the difficult.†... “I never planned on doing this,†said Osteen, who spent the first 18 years after college working for his father, a Pentecostal minister. “I stayed my course and my course has been encouraging people, letting them know that Christ Jesus is on your side. God has opened doors I never dreamed of.†Osteen says he saves money and makes investments, all of which, he said, adhere to the Bible teaching that parents should leave their inheritance to their children. News stories that depict him driven by money simply are wrong, he said. “I put no emphasis on money,†Osteen said. “But I don’t believe God wants you to live defeated barely getting by.†Osteen grew up hearing stories from his father about his upbringing during the Great Depression. The family was so poor, Osteen said, they would receive the Christmas baskets handed out to the poor. Prosperity, he said, is not just about money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 So if I write multiple books, all of which become best sellers, and I make $40M off the deal, I can't keep it if I happen to also be in ministry of some sort? You can keep it or some of it, but be prepared to be roundly castigated for doing so, regardless of anything else you have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I'm not really very anti-Osteen. I'm just perplexed by the theology I've read here over the past few days. Refuse to offer services (photography, cake) for people you think are sinners - OK. Question the wealth accumulation of preacher - not OK. It just doesn't jibe with the New Testament I've read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I haven't seen this, was this on the Hobby Lobby thread? I tried very hard to avoid that thread. Dawn I'm not really very anti-Osteen. I'm just perplexed by the theology I've read here over the past few days. Refuse to offer services (photography, cake) for people you think are sinners - OK. Question the wealth accumulation of preacher - not OK. It just doesn't jibe with the New Testament I've read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Yes. I'm NOT trying to revive that debate or thread, I promise. Just surprised by the vehemence about defending Osteen's wealth here and the contrast was striking. But it's probably a debate for a different thread so I will shut up. It's not like this is uniquely Osteen's issue anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Honestly ? I think PREACHERS should probably be walking. Barefoot. I don't want my priest to be spending all his time walking everywhere rather than doing his job. Not to mention that at his age, walking in the heat of the summer (today it's 95 F or about 35 C) might cause him serious physical harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasperstone Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 “I see God as a force that is for us,†Osteen said. “People say you don’t talk enough about hell, fire and damnation. I think most people are already pushed down enough about life. I think one reason our ministry has touched the masses is because I don’t get up there and tell them how bad they are. I tell them what they can become.†-------------- Really, a force? What, like Star Wars? Hmmm, now that's biblical- not!!! Funny, as I see God as a loving Father! One of us is wrong, and going by God's Word I know its not me. Me thinks he should get out from being a minister, if he doesn't even know the most basic Christian doctrine! No wonder he has such a following. The people there are enjoying the candy floss nonsense. If he started preaching the truth 95 percent would leave in an instant. Okay, I don't know what the percentage would be. But you get the picture. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I didn't recommend him to Tracy for moral guidance or edification. I suggested he had interesting IDEAS about the giving away of wealth. I expect Tracy is strong-minded enough to cope. Perhaps I chose my words poorly. There's no need to be snarky. Let me rephrase: I personally would not be interested in the charitable philosophy of someone who believes that killing newborn babies is "sometimes...not wrong at all." In general, I prefer not to spend time or money on the books of authors I find morally repugnant. I thought others might be interested to know more about Peter Singer for the same reasons. It's possible, of course, that other people are indifferent to, willing to overlook, or even supportive of Singer's position on infanticide. That's up to them, but I find his position disturbing (and frankly evil) enough to mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I literally cannot find the words to discuss this with you. Let's assume most people here are smart enough to work this stuff out for themselves.\ You are free to have your opinion. I'd probably respect it more if you'd actually read the philosopher you're critiquing. That's quite alright. :001_smile: Because I am pro-animal rights, I would venture to say that I know more about Peter Singer and have read more about his philosophies than the average person. As I said, however, I am not willing to spend a large amount of time or any money at all on his books. Have a good night, Sadie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I'm not sure why pastors being poor is automatically a noble thing or a moral good. The Bible speaks of the love of money being the root of all evil, not money itself. My dad was a pastor for years. We barely scraped by as he was paid next to nothing. We were dependent upon government aid in order to eat. My mom worked her butt off in a full time job in order to help pay the bills. My parents have no retirement and my mom, who is old enough to be retired, still works full time in order for them to get by. My dad is bedridden and can't work. They aren't "better" Christians because of their financial situation but they are still generous to those in need despite their lack of money. That is the character issue and the moral good, not the size of their bank account. People can be poor and still be selfish and greedy. You can still have a love for money and not have any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 So JO doesn't love his money ? I guess if he doesn't love it he can give it away...write another book...amass another fortune...give it away...maybe he does. And if he does - good for him! It's a lot easier to be humble without money than it is with $40 million in the bank. IMO. As I said posts and posts back, why couldn't he just pay himself a median American wage ? Around $30 000 ? Maybe he does. That would be nice. I wasn't necessarily talking about JO because it seems that this conversation had morphed into "all pastors should be poor because being poor is morally superior to being rich." I'm saying there isn't a moral value attached to the size of a person's bank account. There is moral consideration to how to money got into the bank account and what it is being used for. People don't have to give everything away in order to prove they don't love money. You can still be greedy in your heart and love money without having any. Having money (or not having it) doesn't prove anything about a person's character. As far as JO is concerned, I'm not willing to name a dollar amount that "good" people can't go over. That's completely subjective to whoever is judging I guess. I dislike him for other reasons besides his money. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber in SJ Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I have not read all the replies here because as a member of the LDS faith we do not have mega-churches. A congregation is geographically defined. If an individual congregation gets too big; it gets split. Also we have no paid clergy so anyone teaching or giving the sermon has no interest in making money from their efforts. The church leaders are not elected. All that being said, some of my in-laws attend a mega-church. We have attended with them from time to time when we are visiting. It is a super cool place. There is a coffee shop in the lobby! The kids section looked like Chuck E. Cheese. There was a band, comedy skits and all kinds of fun stuff. My step-MIL asked my then 6yo dd what she thought and she said; "It was so great, grandma! We had snacks and a puppet show and a game where you scooped up prizes. I mean, you couldn't feel the Spirit in there because it was too loud, but it was fun." That has been my take on mega-churches. Lots of fun & flash; very little substance. Just my 2 cents, Amber in SJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 So JO doesn't love his money ? I guess if he doesn't love it he can give it away...write another book...amass another fortune...give it away...maybe he does. And if he does - good for him! It's a lot easier to be humble without money than it is with $40 million in the bank. IMO. As I said posts and posts back, why couldn't he just pay himself a median American wage ? Around $30 000 ? Maybe he does. That would be nice. If not, maybe he needs a study session with someone like Rick Warren on how to live on 10% of your fortune and give 90% away. Sorry, but $30k is NOT the median American income for a 4 person household (Wikipedia says he has 2 kids). The real median for a 4 person household is $67,019. Houston has a median for a 4 person household of $63,859. $30k for a 4 person household is barely above the Federal poverty level (which is $23,850). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraidycat Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I'm not really very anti-Osteen. I'm just perplexed by the theology I've read here over the past few days. Refuse to offer services (photography, cake) for people you think are sinners - OK. Question the wealth accumulation of preacher - not OK. It just doesn't jibe with the New Testament I've read. ???? Neither is OK. At all. All is being done in the name of Christ, though. Sooooo not the Jesus Christ, I know though. He would condone NONE of the above. He'd make the cake, take the pictures and leavd Joel Osteen alone to live his life as he sees fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Nobody is criticising people who go to megachurches. The criticism revolves around those who become millionaires by selling god as a product. Now that's unspiritual. How you can believe in an abundance universe is beyond me. Go tell that to the children in Syria. Or the ones crossing your own borders. Do they live in an abundance universe ? Actually, there Are plenty of posters on this thread critical of mega churches and mega church individuals. As far as your last paragraph, it is amazing I live with an abundance mentality; if you knew my story maybe you would not have included that paragraph or tone. Indeed, your concerns about children and families in need are some of the very reasons I dumped Christian theology and doctrine and belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 “I see God as a force that is for us,†Osteen said. “People say you don’t talk enough about hell, fire and damnation. I think most people are already pushed down enough about life. I think one reason our ministry has touched the masses is because I don’t get up there and tell them how bad they are. I tell them what they can become.†-------------- Really, a force? What, like Star Wars? Hmmm, now that's biblical- not!!! Funny, as I see God as a loving Father! One of us is wrong, and going by God's Word I know its not me. Me thinks he should get out from being a minister, if he doesn't even know the most basic Christian doctrine! No wonder he has such a following. The people there are enjoying the candy floss nonsense. If he started preaching the truth 95 percent would leave in an instant. Okay, I don't know what the percentage would be. But you get the picture. ;-) I do get the picture. The picture I get is that you've got god defined by your. Your version of Christianity, you assume the thousands who participate in Lakewood are immature, unfaithful, mislead, deceived, or superficial. You see god as a loving father while asserting that everyone else is WRONG. What you quoted JO as saying is **good** for me to read. Running a substance abuse treatment program, I see many people weekly who live with the burden of shame and shaming mentality - it has failed to serve them ever. When I was a Christian, I was glad that my Jesus came so that I could life more abundantly and embrace, as JO suggested in your quote, what I could become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TN Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I have not read all the replies here because as a member of the LDS faith we do not have mega-churches. A congregation is geographically defined. If an individual congregation gets too big; it gets split. Also we have no paid clergy so anyone teaching or giving the sermon has no interest in making money from their efforts. The church leaders are not elected. All that being said, some of my in-laws attend a mega-church. We have attended with them from time to time when we are visiting. It is a super cool place. There is a coffee shop in the lobby! The kids section looked like Chuck E. Cheese. There was a band, comedy skits and all kinds of fun stuff. My step-MIL asked my then 6yo dd what she thought and she said; "It was so great, grandma! We had snacks and a puppet show and a game where you scooped up prizes. I mean, you couldn't feel the Spirit in there because it was too loud, but it was fun." That has been my take on mega-churches. Lots of fun & flash; very little substance. Just my 2 cents, Amber in SJ Funny - my kids had the same reaction after visiting a church that wasn't necessarily mega, but maybe a mega-wannabe. They noticed that the "singing part" was more like attending a concert with most of the congregation just trying to follow along, and the message of the puppet show was that Christmas is all about being nice, rather than about the Savior coming to the world. I know it isn't every mega or modern church, but that stereotype definitely turns me off to them. I can get feel good, motivational speeches and music anywhere, but that's not what I want (or need) from church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasperstone Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I do get the picture. The picture I get is that you've got god defined by your. Your version of Christianity, you assume the thousands who participate in Lakewood are immature, unfaithful, mislead, deceived, or superficial. You see god as a loving father while asserting that everyone else is WRONG. What you quoted JO as saying is **good** for me to read. Running a substance abuse treatment program, I see many people weekly who live with the burden of shame and shaming mentality - it has failed to serve them ever. When I was a Christian, I was glad that my Jesus came so that I could life more abundantly and embrace, as JO suggested in your quote, what I could become. Christianity is defined by the Bible, and not by me. I'm truly sorry that you have to deal with horrible situations like that. :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 ???? Neither is OK. At all. All is being done in the name of Christ, though. Sooooo not the Jesus Christ, I know though. He would condone NONE of the above. He'd make the cake, take the pictures and leavd Joel Osteen alone to live his life as he sees fit. Being left alone by Jesus does not sound like a good fate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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