Help, should I lighten up or push harder?

[elliotterae]

My oldest is 11. Last year was her first year at home. She is on medication for ADHD but has no other learning disabilities. She is "behind" on where I feel like she should be, basically because of her time in public school. Also, switching to a classical education at the time when she should have been moving to logic stage, when she didn't really get a grammar stage base, has not helped.

She had no formal writing training. She had no knowledge of outlining, narration or how to summarize main points. However in  3rd and 4th grade at her school she had the highest comprehension scores and accelerated reader points of anyone in the school. So it's not that she isn't capable, it't that she was trained differently early on.

 

When we try logic stage assignments, she really needs her hand held to do the outlines and writing assignments which limits my time with her younger sister. I don't know if I should back off on the assignments and let her work at more of a grammar stage level while her writing catches up or if I should I push her to do it so that she isn't still behind when we get to high school. I don't want her frustrated and hating to learn but I also don't want her working on the same level as her younger sister forever. 

 

As an example, last year we tried to use ES Biology for the Logic Stage. It took her every bit of 60 minutes to write a one paragraph summary each time we tried. Her written answer to "Conclusion(What I learned)" was something like "I learned it was a maple leaf" or " I learned that sometimes things look different but they are not". 

 

I dont know where to put her in writing. Last year we used WWE1 for both kids. She is probably above that now, but I am not sure the best way to speed it up. Should I skip every other week, make her do double lessons daily, just skip WW2 and move to 3? I am thinking of dropping that all together and using Writing and Rhetoric and Writing from History with her, but again, where to start her and how fast to move becomes a question. I guess I am really rambling now, I am just so lost on where to put her.

 

[Coco_Clark]

I don't have a child that age yet, but it seems wise to me to give her a year (or two) of grammar stage. She will pick it up quickly.

[Aurelia]

If you want to stick with WWE for her, you could get The Complete Writer book and have her work through the samples there, which will progress at an accelerated pace instead of cutting out a bunch of assignments in the leveled books, or you could go with W&R. CAP (publishers of W&R) recommend that everyone start with the first book (Fable), IIRC. It can be gone through quickly with an older child. My DD (10 at the time) worked through Fable at almost double speed, and didn't find it too difficult. Personally, we like W&R here because DD finds the assignments more engaging, but both are good programs.

[kiwik]

Also CAP W&R is not supposed to be started until 3rd or 4th so it is written to children close to her age.

[sewingmama]

Have you looked at Essentials In Writing? Its bare bones basics on writing and you can move through at your own pace. Its watch the lesson on DVD and then do the worksheet. By doing one short lesson every day my kids went through the first level in 6 months. In that 6 months they went from crying over having to write a 3 word sentence to writing 5 sentence paragraphs with a topic sentence. They will probably complete Level 2 in the next 6 months and then they will be caught up to where they should be for their age. Because the lessons are so short...if your DD is " getting it" she can do extra lessons every day if she wishes and catch up even faster.

 

Because it is so bare bones I find it excellent to use for catching up quickly. Your DD won't need hand holding from you because the lessons are on the DVD and the worksheets are very step by step.

 

Once your DD has the skills caught up you can then move her into whatever other program you prefer.

[Jasperstone]

Have you looked at Essentials In Writing? Its bare bones basics on writing and you can move through at your own pace. Its watch te lesson on DVD and then do the worksheet. By doing one short lesson every day my kids went through the first level in 6 months. In that 6 months they went from crying over having to write a 3 word sentence to writing 5 sentence paragraphs with a topic sentence. They will probably complete Level 2 in the next 6 months and then they will be caught up to where they should be for their age. Because the lessons are so short...if your DD is " getting it" she can do extra lessons every day if she wishes and catch up even faster.

 

Because it is so bare bones I find it excellent to use for catching up quickly. Your DD won't need hand holding from you because the lessons are on the DVD and the worksheets are very step by step.

 

Once your DD has the skills caught up you can then move her into whatever other program you prefer.

 

Totally agree here! My dd 11 loves EIW.

[abacus2]

I agree that Essentials in Writing could be a great choice, but not that it won't require handholding. My kids would watch the video and then attempt the worksheet, half the time acting like they had never heard of this before. I needed to make sure that they understood the expectation before working on the worksheet page.

[PeterPan]

My oldest is 11. Last year was her first year at home. She is on medication for ADHD but has no other learning disabilities. She is "behind" on where I feel like she should be, basically because of her time in public school. Also, switching to a classical education at the time when she should have been moving to logic stage, when she didn't really get a grammar stage base, has not helped.

She had no formal writing training. She had no knowledge of outlining, narration or how to summarize main points. However in  3rd and 4th grade at her school she had the highest comprehension scores and accelerated reader points of anyone in the school. So it's not that she isn't capable, it't that she was trained differently early on.

 

When we try logic stage assignments, she really needs her hand held to do the outlines and writing assignments which limits my time with her younger sister. I don't know if I should back off on the assignments and let her work at more of a grammar stage level while her writing catches up or if I should I push her to do it so that she isn't still behind when we get to high school. I don't want her frustrated and hating to learn but I also don't want her working on the same level as her younger sister forever. 

 

As an example, last year we tried to use ES Biology for the Logic Stage. It took her every bit of 60 minutes to write a one paragraph summary each time we tried. Her written answer to "Conclusion(What I learned)" was something like "I learned it was a maple leaf" or " I learned that sometimes things look different but they are not". 

 

I dont know where to put her in writing. Last year we used WWE1 for both kids. She is probably above that now, but I am not sure the best way to speed it up. Should I skip every other week, make her do double lessons daily, just skip WW2 and move to 3? I am thinking of dropping that all together and using Writing and Rhetoric and Writing from History with her, but again, where to start her and how fast to move becomes a question. I guess I am really rambling now, I am just so lost on where to put her.

First, cool avatar!  I've always dreamed of going to Disney.  Was that a cruise?  I don't think my dh will ever taken me on either, sniff.  :)

 

Ok, now for the adhd stuff.  I'm sorry, I almost never come over to K-8 and I STRONGLY encourage you to visit us over on LC (Learning Challenges).  I think you'd love it there, and we're extremely welcoming.  Can I ask if your diagnosis of the adhd came from a ped or whether you've also had a psych eval of some kind?  (psychologist, ed psych, neuropsych, etc.)  I'm asking, because these questions would get answered in a psych eval, or at least the cause of your writing problems would become apparent.  Have you done any reading on adhd-appropriate teaching methods?  Sorry, I'm sure you have.  LoriD always comes in with 20K awesome links, and we certainly have some good lists over on LC.

 

Here's the problem.  You're taking WTM's list and assuming it fits your dc developmentally.  SWB is NOT a psych, and your dc has a diagnosed disability.  ADHD is usually accompanied by a 30% delay in EF development.  EF is a portion of the brain, and you need to start reading about it.  Holloway has this killer book ADHD Superparenting (I think?).  Basically if you add 30%, you're going to see her doing things that you never thought possible.  Doesn't mean she's dumb, just that she has a different timetable.  

 

Also you've got a kid who is probably visual, meaning if you ditched the linear outlines and went to visual mapping using Inspiration software (something our psych told us, something I would think most psychs recommend), you could have a totally different result.

 

Third, you have a dc who, by definition, is going to struggle to attend when not engaged.  In other words, shove SWB's assignments and get something the kid is actually into.  At that age I had my dd outlining Muse magazine articles.  They're well-written, by professional authors, and tackle interesting topics in an engaging and sophisticated way.  (Their target is gifted kids.)  Your library may have them, but the issues are good enough to be worth buying or subscribing too.  Highly, highly recommend.  Don't try to do stuff without engagement and then say the problem is the dc.  

 

Hmm, what else?  You've probably got issues with working memory and other things.  A psych eval would show that.  If you've had an eval, get out your write-up and reread it.   If you haven't had an eval, get a good psych and get one.  Get someone who will spend some time with you and tell you how the scores apply to life and it will CHANGE how you teach.  Our psych took the time to go through every subject with me.  It gave me a lot of hutzpah to go way out of the box, knowing I was doing the right thing for her.  

 

A reading list for you?  I like to read diversely and take what resonates with me.  Anything by Holloway, Freed's book Rightbrained Children in a Left-Brained World, Cindy Gaddis' book The Right Side of Normal which you can also buy as an ebook (way out there, will challenge your perspective), Bright Not Broken, No Mind Left Behind...  Also consider coming over to LC and pulling up Heathermomster's post on how to do metronome homework.  We did that, adding in digit spans for working memory as she got the motions down, and it was EXTREMELY powerful for her.  

 

Does your dd type?  What concerns you most when you say she's behind?  There are some things that are more important than others.  At this age you can do a survey of world history (a la VP's Transitions class) and cover in 1 year things people spent 4-5 years on in elementary.  Of course she's behind in outlining.  That's part of the adhd and not developmentally appropriate to be pushing in that precise way.  Can she type?  Is she self-aware of her spelling to where she knows when she's incorrect and asks for help?  Does she enjoy putting things down on paper when she's NOT doing school work, or does she have physical pain or other hang-ups?  Is there anything else she feels badly about right now that you need to work on?  

 

Seriously, she's NOT behind.  More likely she's getting ready to blossom.  My dd did things at 13 and 14 that you hear people talking about here on the boards in earlier grades.  I know my dd's IQ and it's high enough I'm NOT bashful about telling you her work is good.  She won 3rd at state for NHD for her documentary last year and almost went to nationals.  Her work is GOOD.  But she did WWS in 8th and could NOT have done it earlier.  She did WWS2 for 9th.  Now we don't use it like anyone else.  I skip stuff that covers what we've already done and double up assignments.  It's not like it's the only thing she did that year.  She does a simple thing WELL.  She reads a LOT and she writes like what she reads.  How is your dd's reading?  If I were pulling a kid out of school in this position, I'd figure out what makes them lights up, whether they can read, whether there are any physical problems holding them back (vision, pain with writing, inability to type, etc.) and then I'd UNLEASH them to become GOOD at something.  My dd is a very good cook.  She creates her own patterns to sew things.  She loves to decorate.  She is by definition a doer and she lights up for these things. 

 

Don't make being at home a whole experience in what she's not good at.  Flip the coin and find out what she IS good at, get THAT going, then start slowly doing some modest work in a really efficient way on the things that need to be done.  Most of WTM and WTM-popular stuff is WAY too boring.  Seriously.  Like gag me, kill me BORING.  Bore an adhd kid, and they might complete the work but they'll retain NOTHING.  I don't have time for that.  Do stuff with engagement.  Bend, change, unleash.  WTM doesn't matter.  There's this whole world out there of things she WILL engage with and ways she WILL enjoy learning.

 

And if you'd like to pour out your "but it doesn't work cuz she's so..." list, go ahead.  But you need to get in the stream of people who tell you how to UNLEASH your child and change the dynamic.  That's where the peace is.  Amen.  

[PeterPan]

Ok, just for fun, I'm trying to remember what we did for 6th.  If I were a better woman, I'd have it written somewhere.  ;)  Well that's the year we did VT (vision therapy) going into the fall.  It's the year we started thinking about junior high and how that would lead into a high school sequence for science.  She had always been a year ahead on math and science (BJU as the spine), so we tried the Life Science.  That was a super horrible flop for her on a lot of levels.  She's a real lover of narrative.  I think on stuff like that you need to connect with how their brain works.  The book that really opened my mind on this was Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides.  Dyslexia and adhd used to be lumped together diagnostically, so it's worth reading across labels.  My dd still enjoys a more narrative approach to science, and her favorite things we've tried are the 101 dvd series Timberdoodle sells and piles of science essays from the Best Essay annuals you can buy on amazon for a pittance.  Those essay books are a great option after Muse.  For 6th, read Muse.  

 

If you haven't done Writing Tales, it would be ADORABLE for this age and more fun than you can imagine.  Just be KIND about it.  Shorten the assignments and cut deals, kwim?  Like do all the outlining, but set a finite requirement on the amount of output/retelling (one page, one scene, whichever comes first).  Be flexible.  

 

Typing and metronome work would be HIGH on my priorities with that age.  I paid my dd to type because she also had some handwriting issues and really needed it to work.  

 

Other things that worked for us at that age?  Whiteboards.  Wow, whiteboards.  I had these 17X23 magnetic whiteboards by Board Dudes.  You can get them on amazon for around $20.  HIGHLY recommend.  Big enough to put on a table in front of the two of you.  Draw pictures, do things visually, use color.  Do stuff together.  My dd would try to do things in her head, and instead I'd ask her to dump info and let me write it.  So I would scribe and she would dump.  We took our physical science and changed all the lab problems to Lord of the Rings stories I made up.  (Engagement, remember?)  Like a whole year of Gimli and elves and these dudes shooting arrows to explore physical science.  Totally works.  Grammar we did on the whiteboard.  Math on the whiteobard.  Anything you can on the whiteboard, mercy.

 

You mentioned how high her scores were, and I don't doubt it!  I tried to make sure my dd was reading at least 2 hours a day and tried to surround her with a variety of books.  If she got worn out (or even if she weren't), sometimes the wind would blow and she'd have this Mary Poppins sort of day and look like a fool and be unable to do any school work.  On those days she'd cook, sew, sculpt.  Your dd may have things she's into like that?  

 

That was the year we did puzzles together.  Playing games together is SO important.  Not only does it rebalance the social dynamic (that gets aggravated and pushed in a  REALLY NASTY WAY if you're always bad cop), but it's a great way to work on skills!  Get a version of Ticket to Ride and play it together every day.  It uses tons of working memory and it's just plain fun!  Do things like this and make them important.  They are and more than you realize.  You want those happy memories.  You don't want to turn it all into Mom is Bad Cop and Dad is Good Cop who gets to come home and get the love.  You want to empower her, give on your part, accept some things, and let her push HERSELF.  She will eventually.  

 

For us clear structure helps because it's a little less personal.  I've tried to get things very doable and use very clear checklists.  

 

You know, in 6th I'd still just go with what makes her light up.  Seriously.  Axe the crap that doesn't.  Stop worrying about what isn't working.  You can FIND cool ways to work on the things that are issues.  If she likes LotR, then you use THAT for spelling and cut the junky program.  And if she hates HO, you ditch it and get your outlining in through Muse articles.  My dd loves history, so we never tried to tie academics to it.  I just let her do what she wanted.  VP was great for us.  I think 6th was the year she did a couple of the american history self-paced classes.  Do something that makes her light up.  Be radical.  Go at it in a way that people think shouldn't work and do it anyway.  

 

At least that's what works for us.  I'm sending you my good vibes, my confidence vibes, my it's ok to do something really different and cast aside your fears vibes.  I wouldn't push, because I know it backfires.  I wouldn't push, because I've got a dd like yours, just a few years older, and I know how great they become if you unlock them and help them blossom.  You'll actually KEEP them from blossoming if you squash them with failure all the time.  

[PeterPan]

Btw, and I really should stop writing here, lol, but your comment about no disabilities kind of leads to the natural assumption if the dc isn't doing something or willing to do it, they're therefore BAD.  What I had to come to in a place in my own soul was the realization that I had looked at my child and knew she wasn't BAD.  She's just DIFFERENT.  And her different is GOOD.  It's beyond good; it's awesome!  And to cram her into someone else's paradigm and force things on her was to tell her she was bad rather than acknowledging how good and awesome and wonderful and proactive and faithful and hardworking she is when the task is within reach and doable.  

 

You can take less intelligent kids and cram them into someone else's box.  You can even cram in some SN kids.  But once you get these more intelligent SN kids, they REALLY need the chance to be viewed as good and shine and do their own thing.  Otherwise you're fighting against their very neurology.  

 

Some years I've used time logs, where I literally just put on the checklist "history-1 hour".  Sometimes I've used diversified reading lists to encourage her to read across genres.  One year we used writing prompts.  Actually more than one year.  Her writing didn't blossom till 8th, and then she started spending massive amounts of time entering fan fiction contests (and even winning occasionally!!).  I've talked with others where the dc didn't blossom till 8th (or later) either.

 

Your dc is not bad.  

 

Is your dc perfectionist or opinionated about what she wants to do?  My dd is not perfectionist, and she doesn't like to be solely responsible for creating her curriculum.  It's like she wants me to READ HER MIND and figure it out and then create structure for her.  So it has to fit her, but it makes her anxious to figure it all out.  I've talked with people though whose kids are very perfectionist and driven, and the kids literally figure out their own stuff.  If that's the case, by all means follow the lead of the dc.  Because my dd seems to need that help, we sort of work together.  When I find something I think she'd like, I bring it into the house for her to see.  If she likes it, then I create some structure to it.  That works for us.  For instance, reading a living math book a week would be structure.  That's seriously as fancy as my plan gets, something really vague like that.  Or something will have chapters and I'll chunk it.  Just enough so we know the plan.  Soemtimes I'll write her a guide if the work is challenging and I want to help her dig in, like a book on religions and philosophies she read one year.

 

I got her Durant's History's Heroes for this coming year and plan to pair it with another book by (I forget the name) to create an interesting survey.  It's just something well-written that she liked that we can chunk.  Her interest, her style, and structure I help create.  She is, as the psych puts it, not going to be efficient.  I help make that part happen.  But the interest, the topics, the style, it's all hers.

[elliotterae]

Wow that's a lot of helpful feedback. I was already half sleep when I started so I'll read it again tomorrow and glean what I can and get back with you. But off hand. Her diagnosis was just from the pediatrician, she does marvelous on the lowest dose of concerta so I  never considered a psych eval but I'm not against it.  The reason I lead with "no disabilities" was not to say "she could do better she just chooses not to"  but was because last time I posted a question about her in WWE1 I was responded to with a comment that basically said, "she's just in wwe1 at 10? Have you had her checked for learning disabilities?"   I wanted to head that off because I know she's bright in her own ways. I know she's not bad that's why I want to do this right by her.  The picture you paint of games and puzzles and sewing sound wonderful but I'm stuck in this mentality of we have to get the "work" caught up first. We do have and need to play more often, Ticket to Ride. We love it. Like I said though, I'm  going to read this with an awake mind and then I'll visit you in the other board soon. :)

[Targhee]

OhElizabeth always has great, cut to the chase, suggestions! I just thought I'd clear up the book/author - it's Superparenting for ADD by Hallowell, and it's great. Another author I recommend is Russell Barkley.

 

One thing to consider is that all areas of language are not the same when it comes to language processing. Your child may have high comprehension and reading, but may struggle with writing (many people with ADHD do) because it's a different process. Meet her where she's at. The beauty of HS is meeting them where they are at without pressure or stress so they can feel confident and secure in developing their abilities.

[kiwik]

While it is unusual to do WWE1 at 10 if you need to work on narration skills it is a good time to do it.

[PeterPan]

While it is unusual to do WWE1 at 10 if you need to work on narration skills it is a good time to do it.

I'll take this one step further.  I think if your kid needs to do WWE1 at 10, you need to figure out WHY and not just do it.  What's actually going on is a working memory issue and there could be more (word retrieval, motor planning, etc.), so you're essentially addressing a medical question using a curriculum written by a person who is NOT a therapist.  When you get the problem identified, you *might* decide WWE is still the way to work on it, or you *might* decide to hook up with other options or a combination of the two.  

 

 

Wow that's a lot of helpful feedback. I was already half sleep when I started so I'll read it again tomorrow and glean what I can and get back with you. But off hand. Her diagnosis was just from the pediatrician, she does marvelous on the lowest dose of concerta so I  never considered a psych eval but I'm not against it.  The reason I lead with "no disabilities" was not to say "she could do better she just chooses not to"  but was because last time I posted a question about her in WWE1 I was responded to with a comment that basically said, "she's just in wwe1 at 10? Have you had her checked for learning disabilities?"   I wanted to head that off because I know she's bright in her own ways. I know she's not bad that's why I want to do this right by her.  The picture you paint of games and puzzles and sewing sound wonderful but I'm stuck in this mentality of we have to get the "work" caught up first. We do have and need to play more often, Ticket to Ride. We love it. Like I said though, I'm  going to read this with an awake mind and then I'll visit you in the other board soon. :)

Well I can tell you what we did.  My dd was never sick, so we never went to the ped.  Around 10 she started having headaches, and one thing led to another (vision to OT to...) and we got some screenings and were told there might be a reason to pursue evals.  Then I spent another year, first in denial about the possibility of a label and then trying to figure out who I'd even use to do the evals.  By that point I had 3 women from the boards writing me backchannel, BEGGING me to get the evals.  I know it's a hard process to decide on!

 

What I can tell you is that we waited too long, suffered needlessly, and that I now STRONGLY encourage evals.  Some psychs are better than others and some spend more time or have a more whole, uplifting view.  I can also tell you that the psych solved things and found explanations I NEVER expected.  I'm talking I cried and repented bitterly when I got our report.  They test so many things, especially if you get a neuropsych or someone who digs in, and it WILL change your teaching.  Processing speed.  I couldn't believe the number when I saw it.  Working memory I already knew was bad.  Word retrieval, never even saw that one coming but it explained a lot.  Handwriting automaticity not there.  No LDs btw, in spite of her oddities, and no diagnosed language processing disorder.  Just some big discrepancies on some scores that explained things and informed me on how to work with her.

 

It was also really helpful to have someone who was neutral on homeschooling (not all ra-ra, not antagonistic) give me his perspective on what we had been doing and how to go forward.  HE saw strengths I didn't see.  He told us what to prioritize and he actually said to do LESS academics, thunk.  NEVER would have done that without a professional telling me, kwim?  

 

So whatever.  Psych evals are not a pre-req to hang on LC/SN, and you should do as you wish.  When you want that help, it's an option that's there.  :)

[PeterPan]

Btw, if you have an iPad, she can use apps like Popplet or the Inspiration app to use mind mapping to outline her stuff.

[elliotterae]

I don't think she needs to be in WWE1, that's the thing I was trying to say. I don't know how to accelerate it best. I wanted to start at the beginning because in 5 years of public school, although bright, she had no exposure to dictation, and narration. Her only " copy work" was copying her spelling list from the chalk board. I started her in it because the Complete Writer said it was used for anyone even high school level that had no real writing experience. She's not got problems learning, she just didn't begin her learning in the classical manner. Does that make more sense?  My question is more about how to get her caught up with this logic stage in time for rhetoric.I feel like she needs to go through a writing curriculum from the beginning because it is new to her but not because she isn't able to handle the more advanced. She reads way above level, has a broad vocabulary and does great in spelling. I feel she's capable but I don't know how hard to work her to get her to level in writing. It seems so much of our curriculum and most classical education relies on writing to move forward. That is our hang up. More advanced history, which she can easily handle, requires more writing. Logic stage science, more advanced writing. It's just this writing that I don't know if I should double up, skip lessons our what.  

 

We picked WWE1 because it was the beginning and I didn't want to jump into WWS with no foundation. I'm leaning toward picking up Fable. My understanding is that it is set up to be one semester. If we work time and a half at that we could  easily catch up this year, right?

Again, I'm not trying to imply that she has a problem learning, more that she had a late start learning this way and no writing experience at her public school that focused only on reading and math. This was a main reason in our decision to bring them home.

[elliotterae]

Duplicate post, sorry.

[Targhee]

I think starting with Fable is a good idea. No need to push. If she can easily do the work then you can move more quickly, but her pace. Just as you are going back to writing because you don't want her to have any holes you don't want to push because you'll end up with more holes (and distaste for writing). Fable covers narrating/summarizing, dictation, copywork and if she's ready and capable better to do it with a program that is designed more closely to her age level than try to rush through years of WWE. Fable is designed for 3-4 days a week, one semester, and it suggests you can alternate weekly with grammar. If you aren't behind in grammar then just don't alternate or go 5 days a week.

[Targhee]

As an aside, I have three kids with ADHD, and they all learn very differently from each other but the ALL have difficulty with organizing thoughts for writing (which is what summarizing/narrating is). I am not saying that is true of all kids with ADHD, but organizing anything usually is. We dropped most summarizing and focused on other elements of language. At age 10-11 my oldest started to be able to summarize without much trouble. She's an amazing creative writer, but structured academic writing we're behind with, but still pushing through Logic stage and requiring less writing than most (and I fully expect her to be an excellent writer in the end). Starting at 10 could be an advantage for your dd - a semester or two of summarizing instead of three years of doing it painfully. I love TWTM, but it's definitely written from and to a verbal-sequential learner.

[RootAnn]

When we try logic stage assignments, she really needs her hand held to do the outlines and writing assignments which limits my time with her younger sister.

 

As an example, last year we tried to use ES Biology for the Logic Stage. It took her every bit of 60 minutes to write a one paragraph summary each time we tried. Her written answer to "Conclusion(What I learned)" was something like "I learned it was a maple leaf" or " I learned that sometimes things look different but they are not". 

 

I just wanted to give you  :grouphug:  and let you know that despite doing homeschooling "from the beginning" with a classical element, my eldest needed her hand held constantly with writing assignments and her summaries in ES Biology for the Logic Stage would have been every bit as time consuming to pull out of her if I'd assigned them. (I chose to change the assignments a bit. It would have been too painful to use that material to work on that particular skill. Much easier to use interesting material for my DD to work on a weak skill. My dd#1 was definitely "allergic to the pencil.")

 

OhE has some great advice, BTW.

 

Here's my advice:  Meet your daughter where she is, hold her hand, MODEL what you want her to do, use INTERESTING material with her. And don't try to "make up time" -- just move forward on the skills you know she will need later. You have ALL of middle school to get her ready for high school. Get those basics down and solid so she can fly easier in high school. (A lot of middle school is getting basics down, working on writing skills, and learning to be able to read higher level books.) 

[AMJ]

First, cool avatar!  I've always dreamed of going to Disney.  Was that a cruise?  I don't think my dh will ever taken me on either, sniff.   :)

 

Ok, now for the adhd stuff.  I'm sorry, I almost never come over to K-8 and I STRONGLY encourage you to visit us over on LC (Learning Challenges).  I think you'd love it there, and we're extremely welcoming.  Can I ask if your diagnosis of the adhd came from a ped or whether you've also had a psych eval of some kind?  (psychologist, ed psych, neuropsych, etc.)  I'm asking, because these questions would get answered in a psych eval, or at least the cause of your writing problems would become apparent.  Have you done any reading on adhd-appropriate teaching methods?  Sorry, I'm sure you have.  LoriD always comes in with 20K awesome links, and we certainly have some good lists over on LC.

 

Here's the problem.  You're taking WTM's list and assuming it fits your dc developmentally.  SWB is NOT a psych, and your dc has a diagnosed disability.  ADHD is usually accompanied by a 30% delay in EF development.  EF is a portion of the brain, and you need to start reading about it.  Holloway has this killer book ADHD Superparenting (I think?).  Basically if you add 30%, you're going to see her doing things that you never thought possible.  Doesn't mean she's dumb, just that she has a different timetable.  

 

Also you've got a kid who is probably visual, meaning if you ditched the linear outlines and went to visual mapping using Inspiration software (something our psych told us, something I would think most psychs recommend), you could have a totally different result.

 

Third, you have a dc who, by definition, is going to struggle to attend when not engaged.  In other words, shove SWB's assignments and get something the kid is actually into.  At that age I had my dd outlining Muse magazine articles.  They're well-written, by professional authors, and tackle interesting topics in an engaging and sophisticated way.  (Their target is gifted kids.)  Your library may have them, but the issues are good enough to be worth buying or subscribing too.  Highly, highly recommend.  Don't try to do stuff without engagement and then say the problem is the dc.  

 

Hmm, what else?  You've probably got issues with working memory and other things.  A psych eval would show that.  If you've had an eval, get out your write-up and reread it.   If you haven't had an eval, get a good psych and get one.  Get someone who will spend some time with you and tell you how the scores apply to life and it will CHANGE how you teach.  Our psych took the time to go through every subject with me.  It gave me a lot of hutzpah to go way out of the box, knowing I was doing the right thing for her.  

 

A reading list for you?  I like to read diversely and take what resonates with me.  Anything by Holloway, Freed's book Rightbrained Children in a Left-Brained World, Cindy Gaddis' book The Right Side of Normal which you can also buy as an ebook (way out there, will challenge your perspective), Bright Not Broken, No Mind Left Behind...  Also consider coming over to LC and pulling up Heathermomster's post on how to do metronome homework.  We did that, adding in digit spans for working memory as she got the motions down, and it was EXTREMELY powerful for her.  

 

Does your dd type?  What concerns you most when you say she's behind?  There are some things that are more important than others.  At this age you can do a survey of world history (a la VP's Transitions class) and cover in 1 year things people spent 4-5 years on in elementary.  Of course she's behind in outlining.  That's part of the adhd and not developmentally appropriate to be pushing in that precise way.  Can she type?  Is she self-aware of her spelling to where she knows when she's incorrect and asks for help?  Does she enjoy putting things down on paper when she's NOT doing school work, or does she have physical pain or other hang-ups?  Is there anything else she feels badly about right now that you need to work on?  

 

Seriously, she's NOT behind.  More likely she's getting ready to blossom.  My dd did things at 13 and 14 that you hear people talking about here on the boards in earlier grades.  I know my dd's IQ and it's high enough I'm NOT bashful about telling you her work is good.  She won 3rd at state for NHD for her documentary last year and almost went to nationals.  Her work is GOOD.  But she did WWS in 8th and could NOT have done it earlier.  She did WWS2 for 9th.  Now we don't use it like anyone else.  I skip stuff that covers what we've already done and double up assignments.  It's not like it's the only thing she did that year.  She does a simple thing WELL.  She reads a LOT and she writes like what she reads.  How is your dd's reading?  If I were pulling a kid out of school in this position, I'd figure out what makes them lights up, whether they can read, whether there are any physical problems holding them back (vision, pain with writing, inability to type, etc.) and then I'd UNLEASH them to become GOOD at something.  My dd is a very good cook.  She creates her own patterns to sew things.  She loves to decorate.  She is by definition a doer and she lights up for these things. 

 

Don't make being at home a whole experience in what she's not good at.  Flip the coin and find out what she IS good at, get THAT going, then start slowly doing some modest work in a really efficient way on the things that need to be done.  Most of WTM and WTM-popular stuff is WAY too boring.  Seriously.  Like gag me, kill me BORING.  Bore an adhd kid, and they might complete the work but they'll retain NOTHING.  I don't have time for that.  Do stuff with engagement.  Bend, change, unleash.  WTM doesn't matter.  There's this whole world out there of things she WILL engage with and ways she WILL enjoy learning.

 

And if you'd like to pour out your "but it doesn't work cuz she's so..." list, go ahead.  But you need to get in the stream of people who tell you how to UNLEASH your child and change the dynamic.  That's where the peace is.  Amen.  

 

Must respond so I can more easily find this again if my computer shuts down.  THANK YOU -- you just described my DDalmost13.  She and DD10 had their first homeschool year last year (pulled from private school, eldest diagnosed at start of the last private school year, in 5th grade).  I really needed to "hear" what you said right now.  Due to life's curveballs our first year ended up being a lot lighter than intended, and now I think that might have been for the better, anyway.

 

THANK YOU, OP! for starting this thread.  When I read your post I found our situations so similar.  I'm right there with you, facing these same worries and questions.

 

I'll finish reading the thread tomorrow, and chase down some of the rabbit trails (other forum, other posts to go read, book recommendations, etc.).  Must go to bed now.

 

You two are GEMS!

 

 

[PeterPan]

Must respond so I can more easily find this again if my computer shuts down.  THANK YOU -- you just described my DDalmost13.  She and DD10 had their first homeschool year last year (pulled from private school, eldest diagnosed at start of the last private school year, in 5th grade).  I really needed to "hear" what you said right now.  Due to life's curveballs our first year ended up being a lot lighter than intended, and now I think that might have been for the better, anyway.

 

THANK YOU, OP! for starting this thread.  When I read your post I found our situations so similar.  I'm right there with you, facing these same worries and questions.

 

I'll finish reading the thread tomorrow, and chase down some of the rabbit trails (other forum, other posts to go read, book recommendations, etc.).  Must go to bed now.

 

You two are GEMS!

 

You're welcome!  I'd say welcome to the boards, but you're clearly not new!  :)  I just obviously don't hang out on k-8 enough or wherever you've been hanging to see your posts.  I'm sort of boring and frequent LC.  Anyways, sounds like you had a successful year, even if it wasn't what you anticipated!  Honestly, I think getting into the groove and getting that peace is more important than what you accomplish.  That gets your routine, positive attitudes, and it's something you can build on.  Then you can start to offer them things to push themselves a little.  Really, 9th grade was the first time my dd kind of came into her own and started doing pro-actively, for herself, all the things you always assumed kids would do or heard about other kids doing on the board.  You know how you read in books about people whose kids do it all themselves by 4th or design their own studies or just seem to really be pulling it together and getting it done?  9th.  Not 4th.  Not 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, not for all my panicking, lists, and everything else.  9th.  

 

So time, patience, and giving whatever support is needed.  They do blossom and very nicely.  It's just a shame that they blossom right as you're about to send them off to somebody else for college, sniff.