I think I know what I am looking for! But does this curriculum exist?

[Melissa B]

It seems every history curriculum I look at (including logic and rhetoric levels) is only chronological. Basically read from a spine, read another book or two about the time to flush it out, do a project or writing assignment or discussion, etc. and then move to the next time period.

Is there a curriculum that examines several different books from the same time period and provides discussion questions about how/why the writings are similar and different or different books/writings on the same subject from different time periods? I am looking for a curriculum where you read and compare actual books or writings, not one paragraph from this and one paragraph from that. I am looking for discussion questions and writing assignments that analyze a book not just for its time in history, but as it compares to others thoughts and ideas about the same time period.

 

And for literature, it seems that what I have looked at chooses a literary term - read a book and discuss or write about that literary term and then next book, next literary term. Or else a simple chronological survey of American literature or British literature, similar to the history I've looked at.

Is there a literature curriculum that focuses on one idea or time period or literary term and reads several books about this idea, time period, literary term and compares the writings? Something that analyzes the books and how/why they are different or the same, etc.

 

And any suggestions for something similar in other subjects? Science, math, art?

 

Thanks!

[Susie in CA]

Maybe I am completely of base here ...

 

I think that this what TWTM recommends the student does him/herself for History and Literature in Highschool. At least that sounds very close to the recommended "Great Books" Study to me. I do think that your kids may be to young for that level of work still but you know your kids best. :001_smile:

 

Susie

[Trivium Academy]

Is there a literature curriculum that focuses on one idea or time period or literary term and reads several books about this idea, time period, literary term and compares the writings? Something that analyzes the books and how/why they are different or the same, etc.

 

And any suggestions for something similar in other subjects? Science, math, art?

 

Thanks!

 

This is syntopical reading as described by Mortimer Adler and Charles Van Doren in How to Read.

http://radicalacademy.com/adlergreatbooks4a.htm

http://www.doyletics.com/art/htrabart.htm

 

Are you asking for this because you this is how you want to study or because it is the best course for your individual children? I think this type of study is directed towards higher education students, college-level because (if I'm not mistaken) thesis papers are designed around syntopical reading.

You could always do your own work and then teach your children from your experience.

 

I hope this helps

[Trivium Academy]

There is also The Great Ideas Program which is based on a syntopicon, which is a set of books that lays out a reading program of The Great Books of Western World based on syntopical reading.

 

http://www.thegreatideas.org/gip.html

http://www.angelicum.net/html/what_happened_to_the_great_ide.html

http://www.classicalhomeschooling.com/html/the_center_for_the_study_of_th.html

 

See if you can get this from your library

http://www.amazon.com/How-Think-About-Great-Ideas/dp/0812694120

 

You buy The Great Ideas Program at used bookstores (online and IRL) and at Ebay. It is a supplement book set to the Great Books of the Western World and are intended to be used with them.

 

I had entertained this being our path for awhile and had all the books. Then I realized I needed to wait and see where my kids would head in their educational journeys before I decided this for them.

[Melissa B]

Do you (as in anyone) think it is unproductive to do syntopical reading at a lower level? I'm not talking about "the great books" which would certainly be above my children's reading and comparing level. Is it in some way too difficult for children to read and compare children's books? (I am asking with complete sincerity. I feel like I have no clear idea of what is expected of my oldest as she matures.) For some reason I am having a hard time understanding why it would be less productive to take a time period or literary term and read several books about it to really flush out the differences in how each author approached the same subject rather than simply follow a chronological timeline? It seems that children in the logic stage are capable of analysis and comparison and writing comparison essays with a thesis. They are, aren't they? (If I am wrong here - just say so! I feel so bad for my oldest daughter, always my guinea pig.)

 

Jessica -

I love Adler's book and I think his ideas are great! As he claims, he was writing specifically about reading the "great books." I guess what I really want to do is take his ideas and apply them at a lower level. I don't think my kids are ready to address the idea of truth in each book or follow the great thoughts of mankind through the ages. :D

But, I would like them to spend their time (once they reach the logic stage) reading and analyzing several books on a topic so that they are prepared to address ideas of truth and enter the "great conversation" when they are older. Does that make any sense?

[Trivium Academy]

WTMindy or Kate CA are the best people I know to talk to about this, they have kids your dd's age. Teaching the Classics does this with literary elements but I haven't watched the whole thing yet or put it into practice, that is my goal this year. I saw logic and rhetoric stage in your first post and combined that with what you're looking for- and that is what I based my assumptions on. Sorry about that. :)

[TwinMominTX]

I do think that it might be too early to expect the level of analysis from a 10 and 6 year old that is required in syntopical reading.

 

I think exposure, exposure, exposure at that age is better as they simply don't have the framework to analyze with any great meaning at that young of age. They need more filler before being expected to break it down. That said, your 10 year old, particularly if you consider her logic stage, is certainly coming to the point where this will be introduced. For her, I think that a more informal exposure to the syntopical process is ok. For instance, have her read two works of a similar subject or time period and do a simple compare/contrast exercise. For whatever it is worth, I will likely not consider my kids logic stage until 7th grade.

[Melissa B]

Thanks Jessica!! Actually, I hadn't read your second post when I posted my relpy. I do have the Great Ideas Program and the Gateway series which we may get to later.

 

I may have to purchase Teaching the Classics this year. It would probably work really well for the literature plan I am looking for. Will you be posting a review when you finish going through it?

[Karen in CO]

Do you (as in anyone) think it is unproductive to do syntopical reading at a lower level? I'm not talking about "the great books" which would certainly be above my children's reading and comparing level. Is it in some way too difficult for children to read and compare children's books? (I am asking with complete sincerity. I feel like I have no clear idea of what is expected of my oldest as she matures.) For some reason I am having a hard time understanding why it would be less productive to take a time period or literary term and read several books about it to really flush out the differences in how each author approached the same subject rather than simply follow a chronological timeline? It seems that children in the logic stage are capable of analysis and comparison and writing comparison essays with a thesis. They are, aren't they? (If I am wrong here - just say so! I feel so bad for my oldest daughter, always my guinea pig.)

 

 

 

One thing you could do is plan to present the books and introduce the time period or literary term and let your children make the connections for themselves. One thing I do when reading to my dc is to read several of the same type of books and let them make connections for themselves. For instance, I will read five or six variations of a fairy tale over a short period of time and discuss with the dc how different authors interpreted the story in different ways. We talk about character or setting or different plot devices. We do it in an informal manner. It is amazing to watch even the youngest come up with connections. We also do the same things with several books by the same author.

 

I haven't found a grammar stage literature curriculum that does this. I started doing it with my young children while I was studying literature with my highschool ds. It just seemed like a natural way to do it after a few years.

 

For history, I hate to say this, but maybe look at TOG. It has the background information and discussion questions that you are looking for. The questions are more for the logic and rhetorical stage, but you could certainly read them yourself and discuss them with your dc whichis what I plan to do with it.

[Trivium Academy]

Yes but I can't promise when that will be, it's my long term goal for this year. I want to watch each DVD, take my notes and get it down so I can start using it. From Teaching the Classics:

 

"All works of fiction possess common elements: context, structure and style. Because of their clarity, children's stories are the best tools for teaching the recognition and evaluation of these elements. The best classroom technique for presenting and analyzing literature is the Socratic Method." p. 2

 

"All stories are composed of five basic elements: Conflict, Plot, Setting, Characters and Theme. The powerful "secret" of literary interpretation is really no secret at all: All stories have these components, even the children's stories you read to your second graders at night!" p. 5

 

This is the basis on which I decided to buy Teaching the Classics, I can talk to adults about reading through what I learned in The Well-Educated Mind by SWB or How to Read a Book by Adler and Van Doren but I needed a simpler more accessible approach for my kids, esp. dd8. I can complicate matters rather quickly if left to my own devices, lol.

[Melissa B]

TwinMominTX -

Thanks for your thoughts! The girls are actually almost nine and eleven. I only consider the oldest to be logic stage and capable of that type of analysis. I guess it seems to me that we could build the framework from the reading itself (and what we have read to this point.) I wonder how much exposure is needed before analysis is begun? Or, I fear I am simply thinking like an adult and not a child? I just can't seem to find that level where she will be challenged but not overwhelmed. She has done the chronological and seems to desire more from her studies but where do you go at that point? Spending another three years doing a chronological study while outlining will probably bore her to tears. Even reading literature and simply answering questions on plot, setting, etc. is starting to lose her. She really isn't feeling challenged. (I am really just thinking aloud at this point - no need to feel you have to respond. :D) I can't seem to find a curriculum that provides the depth of thought or analysis that she seems to desire yet remains at her age level.

[TwinMominTX]

I saw 6 for some reason!

[choirfarm]

TOG has MANY of the elements that you describe. The rhetoric level is VERY deep.

 

Christine

[Melissa B]

TOG is very tempting. LOL

 

It does seem to have the analysis at the logic level that I am looking for. The religion doesn't mesh with what we teach our children, but it does seem to be worth the price simply as a teacher resource. There are so many books to choose from and many would work fine. The teacher notes are extensive and I like the depth of the program. And I really like that you purchase all of the levels at once. I think it actually gets too deep into religion at the rhetoric level to work for us, but I could see the next three years working well. Hmmmm. It would certainly give a very solid base to work from. I thought I printed the three week sample for year two - but it turns out I only printed the first week! :D

[melissel]

TOG is very tempting. LOL

 

It does seem to have the analysis at the logic level that I am looking for. The religion doesn't mesh with what we teach our children, but it does seem to be worth the price simply as a teacher resource. There are so many books to choose from and many would work fine. The teacher notes are extensive and I like the depth of the program. And I really like that you purchase all of the levels at once. I think it actually gets too deep into religion at the rhetoric level to work for us, but I could see the next three years working well. Hmmmm. It would certainly give a very solid base to work from. I thought I printed the three week sample for year two - but it turns out I only printed the first week! :D

 

Man, if you can figure out a way to do this, PLEASE let me know! TOG is such a beautifully crafted curriculum, I would love to find a way to use it for our purposes.

[Carol in Cal.]

It provides an efficient way to start to teach the literary elements. What I did with it was to teach a couple of them, and look everywhere else in our work for examples, point them out ad nauseum, and then teach a few more. I did not find the specific examples in FS all that helpful in most cases.

 

For your discussion purposes, have you looked at the list of logic stage discussion questions for literature in WTM? I think that it's a very good introduction to this kind of thinking. WTM discourages parents from having kids generate theses, though, until they know the basics very well--and that includes being able to accurately and succinctly summarize a significant work of fiction or non-fiction and do good outlines. I would concur that at least the summary and probably the ability to outline, both of which require summarization and key point identification, should be in place before a lot of analysis occurs. However, you can start analysis-style THINKING using the Junior Great Books curriculum. It works best with a small group, but I think that you could do it with your children. Its focus is on coming up with an interpretive question about each short work, and discussing it referencing the work. The interpretive question should seek opinion rather than matters that are factually discussed in the work. I have found this a pretty good way of working on that skill gently with age-appropriate works, without letting it consume very much of our time.

[TwinMominTX]

As you can see from my signature, my girls are young so I was really answering your earlier questions based on the theoretical and hypothetical taken from my readings of WTM and other classical education texts. I have no basis for a factual answer! It is interesting (and heartening to me) to hear that your dd at 10 is capable of higher level analysis of reading. I personally can't wait to get to that point with my own girls.

 

If you find a program or curriculum that works will you post about it here. I would be curious to know if you find what it is you are looking for.

 

I hope you didn't feel like I was being a "know-it-all" when I answered your earlier query. :)

[Rosie_0801]

Someone on another recent thread recommended this: http://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Cinderella-Stories-Around-Grades/dp/0439188431/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219621969&sr=8-1

Your daughter might find fairy tales to be a bit beneath her, in which case you could use the theory but substitute the story. It's directed at younger kids, so you would probably want to beef up the activities. Or it might be a good way to get started with this type of work, since the story is so familiar.

I haven't seen it myself, but there seemed to be a few others around here who have and might be able to comment.

Rosie

[melissel]

Also, you could check out Suppose the Wolf Were an Octopus. I considered Junior Great Books, and while I liked it, I liked this better (I greatly preferred the book selections), and it was much cheaper.

 

They have different books, up to 7th grade.

[8filltheheart]

Melissa,

 

Based on the other replies, I am not sure I understand your question correctly, but here's my take on it.

 

I do not use any curriculum for history. I put together my own precisely b/c we circle around time periods. For example, last yr we did the Middle Ages. We spent significant amounts of time reading about Islam, Byzantium, Catholicism, Luther, etc all from the different religious/cultural/person's perspectives. Rather than taking a textbook's single POV, we did use a high school/college text as a reference point, but then pulled in numerous other main sources so that we were looking at the big picture from multiple view points vs. it being told as if it were a single story with a single beginning and end. Does that make sense?

 

It is a tremendous amount of work. It is more effective with the older kids than the younger ones as far as retention goes. However, even my 8-9 yr old from last yr is very aware of how drastically different history sounds when told by different sources.

[Mrs Mungo]

I have not read the other replies (sorry, I'm lazy today) but what you describe is more along the lines of what is required in the rhetoric stage of learning.

 

My eldest is a very advanced reader and I see the tenuous beginnings of the sorts of connections required in literary analysis. However, it is my opinion (only MY opinion) that giving children a firm knowledge of history and the basic facts of history (as gained in the grammar and logic stages) benefit them *greatly* in making those connections. For example, people who know a great deal about British history will be able to make judgments about Shakespeare's plays that people who lack that knowledge will not be able to make. That's why it's recommended to fill them with basic facts and then teach them to make those connections.

[Melissa B]

Thanks again to everyone who helped me muddle through finding what I was looking for. I think I have it figured out!

 

I re-read Adler's How to Read a Book and there was my answer.

 

My primary problem is that I feel by age ten or so, it is time to move beyond education for information alone. But, I wasn't sure how to go about this. So I started looking for a curriculum that would do this for me. Adler's book has just moved up several notches on my scale. I feel I have turned a corner and my idea on how my dd's education will proceed has become much clearer.

 

According to Adler, the first stage of reading is Elementary. This is reading for information or pleasure. It is basically the only reading you do until you reach a ninth grade literacy level. Everyone reaches this level at different times, but I know my dd10 reads and comprehends beyond a 9th grade level. So, on to step two - inspectional reading. For some reason I have always skimmed this chapter in previous readings (that and the section on speed reading.) So I somehow missed that there are two components to inspectional reading. The first is how to "skim a book." How to systematically and quickly look over a book, determine its main purpose and merit and make a decision about further reading. I think this is a very important skill that is often overlooked. So we will begin to work on "skimming" not only books, but journals, newspapers and especially websites. But the other half of inspectional reading (something I had completely missed in all other readings) was my lightbulb. Beginning to read books above your reading and comprehension level, this was the step that I was missing between reading for information and analysis of "great books." Up to this point it has always been my goal to find books and curriculum that were "at grade level" or easy to understand or interesting to my student. I think this is the step that is so important to me, that I feel many people never take. Going from reading books at grade level to books above your comprehension level is a big and important step. So Adler suggests that before you begin to analyze these books you first simply get into the habit of reading them. Learn to choose a good book you know will be a great challenge and read it from beginning to end. At first there will be the feelings of frustration that to this time would have had me finding something else for my children. But the whole idea is to work through this frustration and confusion - not find something easier, but rise to the challenge of something harder. I think it makes a lot of sense that the student will gain a sense of accomplishment by simply finishing the books. Before you can analyze what is difficult to understand you have to really know that you CAN read these books, you will not understand everything you read, but you will understand some of what you read and you will grow from these readings. So at the inspectional level you read a book completely through, you think about it a bit and you write a paragraph or two about what you did understand. Do you feel you understood the underlying theme - write a bit about it. Did you pick up on a key term or two - write about them. Before beginning discussion and analysis my dd has to become comfortable with reading books worthy of discussion and analysis.

 

I know I differ from many people on this board in this matter, but I truly feel that learning the skills of reading, writing and speaking well are much more crucial than learning information and these skills are my focus from the grammar stage on. Information is so easy to acquire these days. Anyone with internet service, or a library, or a mailbox can obtain more information in a couple of days than he can assimilate in a lifetime. But if you can't read, write or speak with real understanding what is the use of the information? (Stepping off my soapbox now.)

 

So I am rearranging dd10's schedule for this year. One half of her books will be at her reading and/or grade level. I am going to continue to pull together my own history/literature/geography program from what I have and what interests us. I will be using several books from different sources because it seems to make more sense to me than reading only one book and getting only one viewpoint (although I agree that one book is plenty at the grammar level.) We will use these books for our discussions and work on outlining, essay writing, vocabulary, etc. So all of our discussions and analysis will remain closer to the informational level for another year or two. All of kids are talkers and love to discuss what they read, so I can really take that in any direction I choose. The other half of her books will be readings that I know are well above her reading and comprehension level and have content I consider to be worth understanding. I will begin with short stories, articles, primary documents and move up to longer books. The list will include books on history, science, geography, literature, art, religion, etc. I will try and tie most of them in with our current studies. Her only assignments for these readings will be to read them from the first page to the last and write a couple of paragraphs at the end. Discussion is optional - but always welcome as is any additional writing, research, etc. After a couple of years of this, I think we can comfortably take the next step. We will take her practice of outlining, analyzing, discussing and writing that she had previously done at an informational level and combine it with her readings at a higher level. It makes perfect sense - at least to me! :D This is what I was looking for in our educational plan. I just couldn't seem to put my finger on that next step. This plan will be challenging and exciting to my dd. She loves to read. Yet, knowing that she isn't expected to be able to understand everything she is reading or to analyze or even to discuss the readings will give her the freedom to take that important step without the added pressure of performance.

 

Thanks again to everyone that helped me think this through!

[Carol in Cal.]

. I think it makes a lot of sense that the student will gain a sense of accomplishment by simply finishing the books. Before you can analyze what is difficult to understand you have to really know that you CAN read these books, you will not understand everything you read, but you will understand some of what you read and you will grow from these readings. So at the inspectional level you read a book completely through, you think about it a bit and you write a paragraph or two about what you did understand. Do you feel you understood the underlying theme - write a bit about it. Did you pick up on a key term or two - write about them. Before beginning discussion and analysis my dd has to become comfortable with reading books worthy of discussion and analysis.

 

I know I differ from many people on this board in this matter, but I truly feel that learning the skills of reading, writing and speaking well are much more crucial than learning information and these skills are my focus from the grammar stage on. Information is so easy to acquire these days. Anyone with internet service, or a library, or a mailbox can obtain more information in a couple of days than he can assimilate in a lifetime. But if you can't read, write or speak with real understanding what is the use of the information? (Stepping off my soapbox now.)

 

So I am rearranging dd10's schedule for this year. One half of her books will be at her reading and/or grade level. I am going to continue to pull together my own history/literature/geography program from what I have and what interests us. I will be using several books from different sources because it seems to make more sense to me than reading only one book and getting only one viewpoint (although I agree that one book is plenty at the grammar level.) We will use these books for our discussions and work on outlining, essay writing, vocabulary, etc. So all of our discussions and analysis will remain closer to the informational level for another year or two. All of kids are talkers and love to discuss what they read, so I can really take that in any direction I choose. The other half of her books will be readings that I know are well above her reading and comprehension level and have content I consider to be worth understanding. I will begin with short stories, articles, primary documents and move up to longer books. The list will include books on history, science, geography, literature, art, religion, etc. I will try and tie most of them in with our current studies. Her only assignments for these readings will be to read them from the first page to the last and write a couple of paragraphs at the end. Discussion is optional - but always welcome as is any additional writing, research, etc. After a couple of years of this, I think we can comfortably take the next step. We will take her practice of outlining, analyzing, discussing and writing that she had previously done at an informational level and combine it with her readings at a higher level. It makes perfect sense - at least to me! :D This is what I was looking for in our educational plan. I just couldn't seem to put my finger on that next step. This plan will be challenging and exciting to my dd. She loves to read. Yet, knowing that she isn't expected to be able to understand everything she is reading or to analyze or even to discuss the readings will give her the freedom to take that important step without the added pressure of performance.

 

Thanks again to everyone that helped me think this through!

 

Let me suggest that you also read to her at above her grade level/comprehesion level, so that she can experience figuring things out with you as well as with you as called on once she is finished. That has always worked great with my DD, now just 12. We talk about vocabulary, I ask her to summarize complicated passages to make sure that she understood them, we talk about what just happened and what an alternative might have been, etc. All of this is verbal and cuddly. It has been extraordinarily effective, and I enjoy it myself more and more as she becomes able to appreciate works that I can enjoy myself.

[Melissa B]

Thanks Carol! We do have read alouds for the whole family that are an advanced level. I am currently reading aloud Oliver Twist. And I am reading aloud Age of Fable to dd10 to go with our year long look into mythology.