regrets after adding long ee sound to "i" and "y"

[Walking-Iris]

Thanks. But I was under the impression that it is first and foremost a spelling program, and that reading comes out of that after. Am I mistaken about that?

 

No you're not mistaken. It's a learning to spell to learn to read program. Most people start a spelling program *after* a child is reading. Some reading programs are primers for the main part without any spelling.

 

In Spalding (I have no experience with using SWR btw) you are teaching the child the phonogram sounds, handwriting, and spelling at the *same* time as they are learning to read.

 

It's not reading *after* they can spell everything. After they've worked on the phonograms and some of the Ayres lists, then you would begin to read books (real books). There is a list in WRTR of books to get started with that include the words they have learned to spell/read.

 

Then they would continue on.

 

It's different than a *true* typical spelling program, because usually spelling programs assume a child is already reading and are started in later grades, or are based off of high frequency words or even the shape of words. I find some spelling programs to be little more than rote memorization. 

 

Spalding integrates the language arts (phonics/spelling/handwriting), rather than treating them as separate pursuits.

 

I've certainly heard of people using it to remediate an older child's spelling however.

 

I'm using it along with OPGTR and then we will switch to Sequential Spelling.

[rachelpants]

DH adds an extra "r" to breakfast..."breakfrest"...lol.

 

Hunter, I want to read your autobiography. :) Your posts always inspire me :)

[8filltheheart]

Thanks. But I was under the impression that it is first and foremost a spelling program, and that reading comes out of that after. Am I mistaken about that?

No, it is spelling to read program. After teaching the program for 5 yrs, I realized just how impossible it is for students to rule there way into spelling. Spelling rules offer generalizations which help in simpler phonics situations, but the higher the level the words, the more phonogram options that are available which do not violate any phonics rules.

 

The rules are very effective for decoding, but rather ineffective for ruling your way into correct spelling.

[lacell]

No, it is spelling to read program. After teaching the program for 5 yrs, I realized just how impossible it is for students to rule there way into spelling. Spelling rules offer generalizations which help in simpler phonics situations, but the higher the level the words, the more phonogram options that are available which do not violate any phonics rules.

 

The rules are very effective for decoding, but rather ineffective for ruling your way into correct spelling.

 

What do you find most effective for spelling?

[lacell]

No you're not mistaken. It's a learning to spell to learn to read program. Most people start a spelling program *after* a child is reading. Some reading programs are primers for the main part without any spelling.

 

In Spalding (I have no experience with using SWR btw) you are teaching the child the phonogram sounds, handwriting, and spelling at the *same* time as they are learning to read.

 

It's not reading *after* they can spell everything. After they've worked on the phonograms and some of the Ayres lists, then you would begin to read books (real books). There is a list in WRTR of books to get started with that include the words they have learned to spell/read.

 

Then they would continue on.

 

It's different than a *true* typical spelling program, because usually spelling programs assume a child is already reading and are started in later grades, or are based off of high frequency words or even the shape of words. I find some spelling programs to be little more than rote memorization. 

 

Spalding integrates the language arts (phonics/spelling/handwriting), rather than treating them as separate pursuits.

 

I've certainly heard of people using it to remediate an older child's spelling however.

 

I'm using it along with OPGTR and then we will switch to Sequential Spelling.

 

Thanks. This helps me understand better. I thought you waited a long time to start reading typically.

 

[Walking-Iris]

Thanks. This helps me understand better. I thought you waited a long time to start reading typically.

 

 

No. Why would you wait a long time to start reading? What do you mean by a long time?

 

I start teaching my children to read/spell/handwrite from day one. A range from age 3 to age 7 or so is typical for my children in learning and expanding on these skills. Learning sounds for letters and phonograms or blends etc, learning how to handwrite, sounding out short CVC words, rhyming, reading primers or phonics controlled books like Bob, or real books such as the I Can Read stories, and so on. Learning to read is a daily, every day thing. 

 

I like Sequential Spelling as a straight spelling program btw.

[PeterPan]

 

Sanseri's stance is that spelling education, where we teach them the "y" is saying /E/, is actually shifting the pronunciation.  

 

Can you elaborate on this? It seems to me you just say "a" and then "sh" and then "un". Where would the "i" be anyway?

 

 

Guess you lost me.  What are those sounds referring to?  Maybe a phonetic chart of the mouth would clarify my comment for you?  http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zbsV0v2goWk/Te5lH_ADU8I/AAAAAAAAAL8/BfGcAtJuALw/s1600/Simple%2BVowel%2BPhonetic%2BChart.jpg

 

What do you find most effective for spelling?

Maybe you could fill in your sig?  Honestly you're asking the wrong question.  First you should be asking what kind of student you have and what do they NEED?  What your dc needs depends on who they are.  You'll have some kids who need a lot of repetition or have visual memory problems or phonemic awareness problems.  Their needs are going to be different from the average student and VERY different from a more "natural speller" who might pick up patterns easily with little or no instruction.  

 

Yes, SWR, WRTR, and whatnot are about spelling your way into writing.  That's why they're called Spell to Write and Read, The Writing Road to Reading, etc.  The student spends his time encoding and then reading back the words he has written.  For many kids this will do the trick.  For a few this even this won't get the reading because they need extra work on some special skills (working memory, tracking, etc.).  Some kids teach themselves to read and some kids need 9 levels of Barton to learn to read.  Some kids are natural spellers and some kids will struggle no matter how much you do.  Kids just VARY.  You have to teach what's in front of you.

 

My personal tip, assuming there are no SN you're investigating, is to look at the parents, because the dc may end up like one of you.  My dh had BAD MEMORIES of K5.  Seriously, like who has BAD memories of K5?!?!  He does, and when I found that out (my dd was 4), I decided I better look for the best, most consistent program I could find, one that fit kids who were going to struggle.  For us that was golden.  You just have to look at the dc you're teaching and do what fits them.  There's no one perfect method.  

[lacell]

No. Why would you wait a long time to start reading? What do you mean by a long time?

 

I start teaching my children to read/spell/handwrite from day one. A range from age 3 to age 7 or so is typical for my children in learning and expanding on these skills. Learning sounds for letters and phonograms or blends etc, learning how to handwrite, sounding out short CVC words, rhyming, reading primers or phonics controlled books like Bob, or real books such as the I Can Read stories, and so on. Learning to read is a daily, every day thing. 

 

I like Sequential Spelling as a straight spelling program btw.

 

Well I know that the purpose is ultimately to read, write and spell. I was just thinking I would not be using readers until my son was writing the spelling rules and doing quite a bit of the dictation. I am so new to all this. Perhaps waiting too long on the reading is not a good idea. Right now he only knows the single letter phonograms. He just turned five last month.

[Laura Corin]

Well I know that the purpose is ultimately to read, write and spell. I was just thinking I would not be using readers until my son was writing the spelling rules and doing quite a bit of the dictation. I am so new to all this. Perhaps waiting too long on the reading is not a good idea. Right now he only knows the single letter phonograms. He just turned five last month.

 

With my boys, we learned the letter sounds, moved on to making up words orally using the sounds, worked our way through a British learn-to-read programme called Superphonics (orally) then started reading phonetic readers (Bob books and similar).  

 

Writing was a completely separate issue for us: many children have the intellectual ability to learn to read much before they have the motor skills to allow them to write much.  My boys would have been quite frustrated if there had been all these wonderful books around them and I had not taught them to read until after they could form letters competently.

 

L

[lacell]

Guess you lost me.  What are those sounds referring to?  Maybe a phonetic chart of the mouth would clarify my comment for you?  http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zbsV0v2goWk/Te5lH_ADU8I/AAAAAAAAAL8/BfGcAtJuALw/s1600/Simple%2BVowel%2BPhonetic%2BChart.jpg

Oh, now I feel REALLY stupid. I misread your sentence and thought that you were saying that Sanseri would think that spelling the word "education" would change the pronunciation that word. I wondered why you said "y" and not "i". I went back and read what you really said, which of course makes sense. Sorry - I need more sleep :tongue_smilie:  That chart is awesome though. Thanks for that.  Honestly, I was asking what program she thought was more effective for spelling simply b/c she said she does not feel that spelling rules really work. That concerned me since Spalding, SWR, AAS all seem to be rule-based. I thougth maybe she favors a completely different approach like Apples and Pears. Anyway, I see your point about choosing the best program for my individual child. I know he still needs some phonetic awareness work b/f we can attempt to do any more blending or decoding than we have already tried. I know I want to do SWR. I am just trying to make decision about the phonogram before I start to really drill them. It is hard for me to know what will work best for him yet because he is still so young and we have done so little formal learning. One thing I can say about him though is that he likes to discover things on his own. So we have chosen a mix of C-rod w/ Mathematics Made Easy/Miquon and RS for math. Not sure how the discovery approach would work with phonics.

[Ellie]

Yes, SWR, WRTR, and whatnot are about spelling your way into writing.  That's why they're called Spell to Write and Read, The Writing Road to Reading, etc. 

 

 

 

Actually, the method is to write your way into reading, not spelling your way into writing.  The title of the Spalding manual is the *Writing* Road to *Reading.* The method is successful because the children are writing what they hear, and seeing what they have written. It addresses all learning modalities.

[Kevin'sMom]

I taught one of my foster children that y is just e's friend and helps out at the end of some words, while e is busy making the other vowel remember to say its name when it is at the end. That's all it took for him...he was in second grade, I think.

[RootAnn]

 I was just thinking I would not be using readers until my son was writing the spelling rules and doing quite a bit of the dictation. I am so new to all this. Perhaps waiting too long on the reading is not a good idea. Right now he only knows the single letter phonograms. He just turned five last month.

 

In SWR, no one writes the spelling rules. You & the kids will say them out loud a lot, but you don't write them. 

 

Some kids are reading well before they begin SWR. Some people use SWR to learn to read. We are usually a mix in the middle. I try to get them started on learning to read before we start SWR. However, they usually aren't reading fluently until they have been doing SWR for a year or three. It isn't SWR's fault that my kids are (almost all) late readers. That's just how we are.

 

If you want to start teaching your son to read, feel free to check your library for Phonics Pathways or the Ordinary Parent Guide to Reading (OPGtR). 

Or, just start with SWR and go through each step - but you can do the writing work on the white board or with 'large motor' activities.

 

Hopefully others have addressed the whole y-says-[either /i/ or /E/] topic. I teach it like SWR says, but one of my kids has a 'y' at the end of her name so my kids have never had an issue with this rule. (And, like Heart said, they have had issues with 'w' vs 'wh' because WE say them exactly the same.)

[lacell]

See Ellie's response in this thread. It states the rationale behind the Spalding method of saying "i" for spelling:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/215216-wrtrother-spalding-based-methods/?p=5638543

[lacell]

In SWR, no one writes the spelling rules. You & the kids will say them out loud a lot, but you don't write them. 

 

 

 

Ok. I guess I am not far enough into learning about it to have gotten to that part. What gave me that false impression was the following paragraph from this link:

 

http://www.shalomranch.org/Comparison.html

 

SWR has a different method for teaching the rule pages to primary students. They have a special log book where the student fills in the necessary word and then a place for the student’s sentence at the bottom. WRTR suggests teaching the rule pages using the block board or chart paper to primary students; the student does not do any writing for this part of the lesson. WRTR feels that the written part of rule pages for the primary log book is too advanced for a child this age. The child will be concentrating on writing the word, as opposed to paying attention to the lesson. WRTR has the older student writing the rule applications in their log books. SWR feels that the primary student needs practice in the format and can handle this amount of input.

 

I must be misunderstanding. What is the child who does SWR writing during the spelling rule dictation?

[PeterPan]

Well it's been a few years, lol, but iirc the primary logs had abbreviated forms to fill out, making recording the examples of the rules easy.  

 

If this is a boy and he just turned 5, you could have a while before he's really ready.  You might consider spelling the words with letter tiles the first time through the lists, then starting over doing the lists with writing.  That's what I did with my dd, who has a late spring b-day.  It took 3 times through the lists with her before she took off reading, and boys tend to be 6 months behind girls.

[Ellie]

Ok. I guess I am not far enough into learning about it to have gotten to that part. What gave me that false impression was the following paragraph from this link:

 

http://www.shalomranch.org/Comparison.html

 

SWR has a different method for teaching the rule pages to primary students. They have a special log book where the student fills in the necessary word and then a place for the student’s sentence at the bottom. WRTR suggests teaching the rule pages using the block board or chart paper to primary students; the student does not do any writing for this part of the lesson. WRTR feels that the written part of rule pages for the primary log book is too advanced for a child this age. The child will be concentrating on writing the word, as opposed to paying attention to the lesson. WRTR has the older student writing the rule applications in their log books. SWR feels that the primary student needs practice in the format and can handle this amount of input.

 

I must be misunderstanding. What is the child who does SWR writing during the spelling rule dictation?

 

Spalding doesn't have the children write the rules into their spelling notebooks (they don't keep "log books"). When there is a rule (and not all words have rules), the children only write "r. 4" (as an example), and then they repeat after the teacher, "A, e, o and u usually say their second sounds at the end of a short word or syllable." They don't write the rule. They do write the rule pages; perhaps that's what the owner of Shalom Ranch means.

[RootAnn]

I must be misunderstanding. What is the child who does SWR writing during the spelling rule dictation?

 

Never seen that comparison page before. :huh:   

 

For SWR, she's probably referring to the "Reference Pages" in the back of the learning logs. There is, for example, a "SH" page where students collect words that use "sh" at the beginning of the word, at the end of a syllable (or word), and for the ending "ship." They eventually also collect words containing Latin versions of /sh/ like 'ti', 'ci', and 'si'. So, you would introduce the page and write down "she" and "fish" for example in the proper columns which are pre-labeled for them. When you get to a word like "facial" or "nation", you would put those into the proper column - thus having another chance to write one of the list words and also putting it into context of the 'spelling rule'. 

 

There are pages for the types of Silent Final E's, types of /er/, the 1-1-1 rule, adding suffixes, etc. They are writing examples of words that show the rule - not the rule itself.

 

When the kids get to the older learning logs (called "Black" for their outer cover color vs the "Primary" one for younger students), there is sometimes part of a rule listed at the bottom of a reference page where they can fill in the blanks with the full rule. But that's not until 3rd grade & up. With younger kids, some people use the Chart Masters instead, so the kids don't do any writing at all but still see the application.

[Corraleno]

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