Bensmom Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I am looking for beginning logic for ds (age 11). I am considering Art of Argument and Fallacy Detective. If you have used both of these programs which one would you recommend doing first? Are they fun/engaging? All feedback is welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 If you are going to do both, use Fallacy Detective first, IMO. If you are only going to do one, Art of Argument covers more material. I did FD with dd#1 when she was in 6th grade and plan to do it with dd#2 when she is in 6th grade. We do it orally - together - and enjoy the rabbit trails. It was dd#1's favorite subject that year. We did Art of Argument with a small group of her peers during 1st semester of this year. It was fun with a group because of the discussions and games (which aren't included - but easy to come up with). I'm not sure she would have enjoyed it by herself. Hopefully, I'll have time & energy to do AofA with a group when dd#2 is in 7th. AofA is easy for older kids, IMO. FD is easy to do for youngers. Your son could do either at his age, I would think. FD is decidedly Christian and pretty conservative in its political outlook. AofA isn't as much of either, although you can still detect some Christian/conservative leanings. I'm having a tough time figuring out which formal logic program to go with at this point for dd#1 (Memoria Press or Canon Press). :001_unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjx2khsmj Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I would start with Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox for logic. They are fun, move quickly, and get the information across clearly. The Discovery of Deduction has been successful at our house for formal logic. The Memoria Press Traditional Logic was not a favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 For a solo student I would go with Fallacy Detective which my son loved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Some people take serious issue with Bluedorn materials.http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/506294-bluedorn-reviews-aka-leaving-cc/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloha2U Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I would start with Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox for logic. They are fun, move quickly, and get the information across clearly. The Discovery of Deduction has been successful at our house for formal logic. The Memoria Press Traditional Logic was not a favorite. Just a heads up... CAP is releasing their new book, Everyday Debate & Discussion—to follow DOD, in August. You can read about it in their New 2014-2015 Catalog. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I would start with Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox for logic. They are fun, move quickly, and get the information across clearly. The Discovery of Deduction has been successful at our house for formal logic. The Memoria Press Traditional Logic was not a favorite. I'm struggling with what to do in the department next year also and was considering MP Traditional Logic. Could you share what you did not like about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJosMom Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 We started with Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox; DD loved them both. We will be doing Art of Argument next year (7th.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjx2khsmj Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I'm struggling with what to do in the department next year also and was considering MP Traditional Logic. Could you share what you did not like about it? Dd14 found it to be very, very boring. I may try it again with the DVDs. The style is not as engaging, or she felt relevant, as the other logic curriculum she enjoyed. It could also be that dd wasn't quite ready to take on formal logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypamama Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I really liked the looks of Art of Argument but not its references to things like abortion; I just really am not ready to have that discussion with my children yet. So I put AofA on hold for a while longer. We're going to try FD next year and see how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I really liked the looks of Art of Argument but not its references to things like abortion; I just really am not ready to have that discussion with my children yet. So I put AofA on hold for a while longer. We're going to try FD next year and see how it goes. I couldn't remember AofA mentioning abortion, but I found it in the Ad Hominem Circumstantial chapter (Fallacy 2). It goes like this: Example 1 You can't accept her argument against abortion - she is a Catholic and the Catholic Chruch opposes abortion. Example 2 You can't accept his argument favoring legalized abortion - he is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, which supports legalized abortion. [Two more examples - dealing with taxes & rich people] Whether someone is a Catholic or a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, as in examples 1 and 2, should not be a cause for rejecting that person's argument about abortion. The argument itself needs to be heard and stand or fall on its own merits. Just posting the actual content so people can make their own decision. In my house, only my four year old doesn't what abortion is. I would have to explain what the ACLU is, however. My co-teacher & I had to explain other things mentioned - Pres. George Bush and "weapons of mass destruction" WRT the Iraq War, for example. It worked well for 7th-8th grade level kids, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I'm pretty sure my 11 yo doesn't know what abortion is. Hasn't come up. Good to know it's in there so we can talk about it when the 7 yo isn't around . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 We started with Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox; DD loved them both. We will be doing Art of Argument next year (7th.) Which book did you use first? I just bought Fallacy Detective, but now I'm wondering if I should wait and use Thinking Toolbox first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TarynB Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Which book did you use first? I just bought Fallacy Detective, but now I'm wondering if I should wait and use Thinking Toolbox first. The authors recommend The Fallacy Detective first (age 12 & up), followed by The Thinking Toolbox (age 13 & up). (You can see for yourself and find supplemental resources for both at: http://www.fallacydetective.com) We used them both in 6th grade. FWIW, my DS just commented that TFD teaches you what fallacies are, and TTT teaches you how to spot them. We have Art of Argument planned for 7th grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauphin Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Some people take serious issue with Bluedorn materials. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/506294-bluedorn-reviews-aka-leaving-cc/ Hey, I was the OP on that thread! Random! I'm still trying to plug through the book as there are some useful bits in it, but, boy...sometimes I"m not so sure about the ideology! Just a heads up... CAP is releasing their new book, Everyday Debate & Discussion—to follow DOD, in August. You can read about it in their New 2014-2015 Catalog. OOH! *goes to order new catalog* The authors recommend The Fallacy Detective first (age 12 & up), followed by The Thinking Toolbox (age 13 & up). (You can see for yourself and find supplemental resources for both at: http://www.fallacydetective.com) We used them both in 6th grade. FWIW, my DS just commented that TFD teaches you what fallacies are, and TTT teaches you how to spot them. We have Art of Argument planned for 7th grade. Oh, I like that! It seems like I don't ever see the Critical Thinking Co.'s logic/critical thinking materials here. Why is that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I'm pretty sure my 11 yo doesn't know what abortion is. Hasn't come up. Good to know it's in there so we can talk about it when the 7 yo isn't around . . . Our old pastor mentioned it so much from the pulpit (after repeated concerns that we brought to him) that my daughter found out at age 8. It is not good at all. We avoid the subject like the plague now because she had nightmares for months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon in TN Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 I had purchased the AoA used from someone and started watching the video. It was a bit over *my* head so for my dd11 I went with the Fallacy Detective this past year. I just picked up the Thinking Toolbox this weekend for us to use in the fall, but I'm kinda wishing I had known about it to do after we finished FD last semester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloha2U Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 Classical Academic Press also recommends Reasoning & Reading—complementary to their secondary school logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirabillis Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Fallacy Detective also talks about Santa... about 'believing' in him or not. Fortunately it was a chapter I happened to read outloud to my son, otherwise all sorts of questions would have come up. We're big believers, and don't need anyone else to shatter our kids' flights of fancy. But FYI. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porque Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 We finished Fallacy Detective and are working our way through Art of Argument. I thought Fallacy Detective was a little more interesting. I recently took my kids to the local district attorney candidate debate and my dd11 recognized and pointed out more than a few logical fallacies- ad hominem attacks of various sorts, a few red herrings, appeal to fear. Both of my kids were struck by the inability of most candidates to actually answer the question. So all this to say, I think these programs have paid off for us in the way that I wanted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 DD#1 was very annoyed that a local candidate for public office won his primary spot after having very obviously used two common fallacies in his ads (appeal to illegitimate authority & genetic fallacy). She would point out the fallacies in the paper ads that came to our house (fallacy of moderation, ad homien abusive, etc.) Doing both FD & AoA gave her a deep understanding and application ability that I don't think she would have had with just one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I'm pretty sure my 11 yo doesn't know what abortion is. Hasn't come up. Good to know it's in there so we can talk about it when the 7 yo isn't around . . . I stand corrected, she does - she read about it in a book about puberty/growing up and brought it up with me recently. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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