S/O Practice vs. strategy

[LaughingCat]

From the after DB C thread - it was suggested that issues with skipping small words meant more 'perfect practice' was needed at not skipping words - since 'practice makes permanent' (to break the habit that had already been formed )

 

I said:

I equate the a/the thing to math facts - if I waited until DD could get math facts perfectly (i.e. no 'wrong' practice allowed) we would still be back in 2nd grade math doing addition.  

 

OTH going on in math has not stopped me from having her practice her facts.  I would love to find a way to 'practice' the a/the thing - separate from other reading ability. 

 

The thing for me is,I have never seen any improvement in general reading from just repeated or practice reading (out loud) - no matter how easy the reading, no matter if I am following a program's progression, no matter how much correction is done.   No improvement - not in word attack, not in skipping, not in tracking.  Improvement in reading that passage yes, improvement in chance of meltdown yes, in general reading ability, no.   

 

Yet when doing Rewards, there was clear, obvious, large improvement - in the one area that Rewards focuses on, gives a simple strategy for, and includes ways to practice the parts of that strategy - multi-syllable word attack.   

When doing DB there was clear improvement in both guessing and unknown word reading (possibly the notched card alone is what gave that).  

And those 'strategy' style improvements, even when practiced on very hard for her passages, caused an improvement in reading easier passages - such that less skipping/replacing/tracking issues occurred. Even though those weren't what was being worked on in any way  (I attribute that to less brain being used by reading the 'hard' words and thus available to read the easy words and keep track of where DD is at in the passage)

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear thoughts on whether repeated practice with slowly getting harder is what has helped your DC most or whether a specific strategy has helped most, or specific program or both, or really, what do you attribute improvement to.

 

[ As an aside, I would love to find a strategy style program like that for issues like skipping a/the or losing one's place - a simple strategy with the ability to practice the parts of the strategy as well as the whole - separate from general reading.  I have thought of having DD just read a page of a/the/on type words alone every day (Abecd. style) even though she doesn't struggle when it is presented that way. Maybe if I mixed the easily dropped words in with harder words?  Like DB or Rewards word list type reading but adding a or the in front of the word?  - or I could do a VT near far sheet of only those words - or metronome style adding in a bouncing ball while reading (dd can't actually handle a metronome yet but can handle bouncing a ball).  Maybe adding a next level distraction like that might make it work. Hmmm! Ideas are percolating lol! ]

 

[Molly]

One suggestion that may work.  When she is reading aloud to you, stop her each and every time she skips or loses her place.  Make her go back to the beginning of the sentence. It will help her to realise how often she is doing it.  It is one of those things that requires an absolute tonne of patience.  Good luck.

[LaughingCat]

As a result of corrections that involved required backing up to the beginning of the line or sentence, she now 'stutters'  - if she has any inkling there is a problem, she either repeats that word (multiple times) or backs up a few words (often to the start of the sentence or line).  Unfortunately, she misses many of the actual skips/replacement and 'catches' many non-existent problems.     It makes her read-alouds very hard to listen to - basically created another 'bad' habit rather than a help. 

 

ETA- this is just another example of why I feel she needs a strategy rather than just pointing out mistakes during practice.  At the same time, it can't be memorizing a bunch of rules and applying them (hard time memorizing combined with very slow application - the more rules, the slower the application).   Perhaps I am wrong to say strategy though - maybe it is still just 'practice makes perfect' but she just needs practice specific to the actual issue rather than being expected to infer from general practice?

 

 

 

[Molly]

Ok, that makes sense.  I do understand, I have similar issues with my son.  Are you able to encourage a slowing down while reading aloud, or even following her finger along for each word?  Remind her each time that she needs to read each word and to keep her eyes where her finger is.  I know what you mean about too many rules.  Perhaps it is just the encouraging of reading each word, and the following along.  I think the idea of a strategy is a great idea.  From what you said about pointing out the mistakes causing the stuttering, perhaps focusing on when does it well.  

 

Anyway, I really hope you find the right thing for her.  Also, just a quick suggestion, have you had her eyes/eye tracking checked (quite probably I imagine, but thought I would ask).

[LaughingCat]

Thanks Molly, but she has done VT too - she did have a big jump in speed from the latest VT (2nd time), going from ~60 wpm to above 100 wpm at grade level.  But she still does the skipping/replacing small words and occasionally skipping lines  - it hasn't had any affect on that.  The exercises VT gave us specifically for tracking fit more into the 'just practice it until you can make no mistakes and you'll get better' category in my opinion.  It is basically reading letters and numbers instead of words but no 'strategy' for catching/fixing mistakes other than having them pointed out and trying again.  And no improvement even though we did them for over a year at home after the first time she did VT.

 

But I didn't really mean this thread to be specific suggestions for my DD's issues - I was thinking more in terms of 'best practice' and 'what works'    (and I'm ok if no one else's brain is following me off onto this sidetrack lol!)

[Ivey]

I don't really see any alternatives to "perfect practice" when it comes to reading. We didn't focus on word attack while Ds was reading aloud (he was free to say "I don't know that word", and I'd make a note to go over it the next day), but I did expect him to correctly read every word that he could.

 

For a very long time, I sat beside Ds while he read aloud, and ran a pen or pencil along the top of the words he was reading. If he skipped a word, or made a silly error (mixing up "for" and "of" was a big issue), I just didn't move the pen along until he read the word correctly. If this made him lose the flow of the sentence, I would go back and read from the beginning of the sentence, having him take over when we got to the trouble spot. He still runs a pen along the top of the words when he's reading something challenging, or if he's having trouble paying attention to what he's reading. 

 

Going with the math facts analogy, just like I didn't keep Ds in 3rd grade math for 5 years while he memorized his multiplication tables, I didn't stop all other reading instruction to work on "for" vs. "of". The passages and books he read aloud got harder and harder, but we continued to work on replacing words by not allowing him to get away with reading words incorrectly. 

 

 

 

[LaughingCat]

But with the math analogy - do you correct his math mistakes the second he makes them? Are you sitting next to him making sure he doesn't go on unless the mistake is corrected or do you just go back and show him the mistakes (at the end of the page) and have him correct them after the fact?

 

For a math comparison, DD has never improved from XtraMath (speed/correct the mistake immediately) but she has improved from doing a multiplication table (strategy + corrected after the fact).

 

So for both reading and math, my experience (experiment of 1) is: use positive reminders of the 'strategy' ahead of time and go back over the mistakes later works best - opposite of  'practice makes permanent'.    For reading- I do correct more quickly if it is a new word to her and she read it incorrectly and without using the strategy we are practicing (I give it to her if she used the strategy) - but still not immediately, at her request.  And I can see her point that if I always correct her immediately, how can she ever self-correct from the context?  (It's actually quite hard not to correct immediately! I don't always succeed )

 

Also, I have read various books about the "10,000 hours of practice 'rule' " - and they talk about true practice being that moment that you 'work' on improving some particular thing-  not about making each time perfect (and of course definitely not playing through with no involvement).  And somewhere I read that coaching that type of practice works best if the coach picks 1 area of improvement and focuses on that specifically, rather than trying to correct too many things at once(Practice Perfect? or maybe Teach Like a Champion by the same author? or maybe somewhere else entirely).

[Pen]

For my son, a combination of excellent strategies (for him) and lots of practice with corrections given after an around "one-one-thousand" count silently in my head after the error (allowing him a chance to self correct, and a little longer given if I were to see him looking for the right word or place himself, than if he were just about to go on without noticing), took him from not reading to reading.  Strategies for not losing place included finger following under words and thumb of other hand to follow down the lines and the use of text with large gaps between lines which gradually decreased over a series of books, for example.

 

 

I did not ever (or at least I hope not) make corrections in a punitive way, like go back, redo, etc., but jumped in with what is right when needed, or "oops, you missed a line." And then add more practice and or strategies for that problem if needed. And practice for my son had to be with a number of books at same level so he did not just end up memorizing rather than reading.

 

And we tried many things that did not help or not much, colored plastic overlays, index cards, etc., as well as a number of programs that did not help.

 

Lots of practice with the wrong program or in the wrong way did not help, and even the right program would not have helped, but for intense practice with it, done in an effective manner.  All of this being understood as right and effective for him, for his particular situation. For another child that might be a different program, and different practice methods needed to be effective.

 

Not everyone who spends 10,000 hours on an instrument or at a sport or at reading does actually become proficient. Some people will need a lot less than that.   There are no chess masters who have not practiced. But there are many people who have played a lot of chess without becoming masters.

 

 

With the math analogy, if a child cannot yet consistently discern the difference between "1" and "258", which is somewhat like the difference between "a" and "the," I would most certainly work on that sort of basic skill (subitizing, number sense), using whatever strategies I could find that might help, before going on, Yes.  The foundation in that regard has to be solid.  There may be a few people who can go on to become superb mathematicians, or even competent at every day math at an adult level, even though they do not know the difference between 1 and 258, but they are probably rare.

 

 

 I would be sitting there beside the child making the correction as to this basic level of math, yes.  

 

Best math teaching practices as I understand them involve being right there to make sure a child is understanding a new concept or procedure before setting the child loose to practice a whole page. It is the most fragile moment when the child goes from seeing a worked example, to doing it her/himself for the first times.

 

 

Once up to ideally 90% or so accuracy, I would let a page or even more go by before correcting problems, perhaps. But I think it would be more ideal to correct problem by problem if one could do so.

 

 

 

 

 

As reading has gotten to the level of being able to read much harder texts usually silently, it has become impossible to correct everything, but from time to time there is still an oral reading done to catch problems. I use a certain amount of discretion at this stage on when I think it is important to make a correction--but we are now talking about a reading level that is adult texts, where I myself sometimes realize that words are in my silent reading vocabulary and I am not sure how they are pronounced either.

 

 

 

 

[ElizabethB]

A quote from Dr.Mosse from my dyslexia page:

 

A folded piece of paper or, much better, an unlined card should be held above the line the child is reading, not beneath it. This is the so-called Cover Card Method of treating Linear Dyslexia. The reason for this position of the card is that it can steady the eyes, which have a tendency to wander above and not below the line being read, and it can connect the end of one line with the beginning of the next, thus indicating the return sweep and making it easier on the child's eyes. By blotting out all the text that has just been read, the cover card helps the child to concentrate on just that one line he is reading. By holding the card at a slant with the left corner slightly lower than the right, and by pushing it down while he reads, the child steadies his gaze and at the same time pushes his eyes from left to right and down via a correct return sweep from one line to the next. This is by far the simplest, cheapest, and most effective treatment for Linear Dyslexia. [21]

[ElizabethB]

I would download the sample pages from We All Can Read and see if that is helpful, nonsense words mixed in with a, the, in, etc.

 

http://www.weallcanread.com/phonics-program-core-book.html

 

If you decide to buy, all you really need is the book, not the teacher's manual or any of the other stuff. (Someone who has not taught phonics will need the manual.)

[Pen]

I don't really see any alternatives to "perfect practice" when it comes to reading. We didn't focus on word attack while Ds was reading aloud (he was free to say "I don't know that word", and I'd make a note to go over it the next day), but I did expect him to correctly read every word that he could.

 

For a very long time, I sat beside Ds while he read aloud, and ran a pen or pencil along the top of the words he was reading. If he skipped a word, or made a silly error (mixing up "for" and "of" was a big issue), I just didn't move the pen along until he read the word correctly. If this made him lose the flow of the sentence, I would go back and read from the beginning of the sentence, having him take over when we got to the trouble spot. He still runs a pen along the top of the words when he's reading something challenging, or if he's having trouble paying attention to what he's reading. 

 

Going with the math facts analogy, just like I didn't keep Ds in 3rd grade math for 5 years while he memorized his multiplication tables, I didn't stop all other reading instruction to work on "for" vs. "of". The passages and books he read aloud got harder and harder, but we continued to work on replacing words by not allowing him to get away with reading words incorrectly. 

 

 

This is very close to what we were doing. I think there was even a phase where I use a pencil like that, but then ds took over with his own finger.

 

And when reading for fluency and automaticity, I was supplying unknown words in a gap fast enough not to lose the flow, but also like you not stopping to work on them then, but figuring out how to work on them in the next session.

 

We also did not stop forward progression to work on a glitch, but did continue to work on the glitch area with great intensity. If there were enough errors to not make the overall fluency grade to move to the next level, though, we kept working where we were.  (wrong words are subtracted when assessing the total words per minute -- and I also added there being a sense that the reading was being done in a way that made sense, not just a speeding along as words without meaning sort of way.)

 

ETA: or at least that would be true back at early reading levels where reading was a main subject and there would be a reading session later that day or the next. Nowadays reading is not a subject any more.  So, nowadays, I will stop when there is an unknown word that can be figured out, and say, okay, let's work on that one. Other times, he will spell an unknown to me and I will tell him what it is. That is part of the discretion in deciding when to do which.

I also, much to the annoyance of my son, will stop reading when I am reading aloud and unsure of a word and look it up in the dictionary because I am trying to model that. And similarly when reading fantasy, will stop at a made up name and do a work it out practice on that word.

[LaughingCat]

From the other thread

I think we are reading longer pages than you Lecka :)   However you are right that independent reading level is 98% or better, not 95%. 95% is the generally accepted instructional level.  I have even seen 99% or 100% for independent level.

 

Here is an example of DD's reading - the NRRF test reading passage section last August (had just started Rewards),:

1 - 53 words in the passage, skipped the word 'the'   = 98% correct

2- all correct

3- 50 words in the passage, skipped the word 'the' = 98% correct 

4 - 52 words, missed 'immense'  98%  (note - if she had skipped an 'a' or 'the' in this passage as well, she would have been over the 98% and it could easily have happened)

5- 53 words, missed proportion and haunch = 96%

6 - 58 words in passage, skipped the words 'a' and 'the', and missed 'plowman' twice  = 94% correct 

For the last passage, she worked out 'plowman' the first time, but read 'plow' as rhyming with row instead of cow, and then read it the same way quickly the 2nd time.  The 'the' was in front of the first plowman, skipped due to focusing on the hard word IMO.   The 'a' was just a general skip, as happens even in the 1st grade level as seen above.

 

100% right every time would have me working with her at the 1st grade level until perfection is reached - since due to the skipping of small words she can't do that even at the first grade level.  Even 98% right would keep her down at the 3rd grade level - because in regular reading (unlike the 4 passage) she does skip small words mixed in.   Yet, if you only count words she did not know how to read, rather than small word skips, she is above 6th grade for instructional level (and also based on other tests I've done).  This is why I compare it to math facts.

 

[complete side note: plowman! that one just kills me.  She read it phonetically correctly and it counted against her twice!]

 

This example hopefully helps explain why I compare it to math facts.   If I predicated reading on 100% accuracy in small word skips - DD would be reading at 1st grade level (for the rest of her life it feels like), just like if I predicated math on 100% accuracy of math facts, she would still be at the addition level. 

 

I agree with "intense practice with it, done in an effective manner." but I think when I find the 'effective manner', the intensity matters less. 

 

Also, regarding the 10,000 hours - nothing I've seen says just any old practice.  Mostly it talks about 'deliberate' practice.  Which is usually not defined as playing 'perfectly' (most of this research is apparently done on instrument practice) but a deliberate attempt to improve at some part of the process.  Which fits in with my 'strategy' style thinking - strategy (the way I am thinking about it anyway) is focusing on improving a specific area with specifics on a way to do so and/or practice with more incremental steps.   

 

Regarding DD's specific issues:

I don't think small word skipping compares to subitizing issues.   The problem is not that she can't read those words (to be clear, it's not just those 2 words) -- she can and does read most a/the 's correctly.   The NRRF above for example, has 34 a's and the's and DD missed 4 of them.  She does miss more when the reading is harder (as in the level 6 passage above - missed 'the' because her focus was on the 'hard' word). 

 

And from the dice/abacus work I've 'tested' DD with lately, she doesn't have subitizing issues either - but still can't get her math facts out correctly 100% of the time.  Also can't skip count without making mistakes.

 

Regarding the specific suggestions:

I have tried both the pen and the card to no or negative effect.  DD will sometimes use her finger or a card under the line (I've tried to get her to put it above but no success) - but I like the idea of the thumb next to the line and she'll like that it is less obvious than the finger.

I will definitely look into the We All Can Read nonsense word sample, might be just what she needs.

[Pen]

Is it always a/the mixed up? Or sometimes the/them or a/at?

 

If 'a' is only mixed up with ' the' and she does not have a subitizing problem, then you might be able to use subitizing skills to look at the length of the word along with its placement and use as an article.

 

 

And ElizabethB's link that would have nonsense words mixed with small words might help too.  Or you might be able to make up your own real or nonsense wordlists like that.

 

Can she correctly get these sorts of small words on dictation? That sort of work might also help.

 

And it might actually help to take some first/second or at least not higher than 4th grade level material and practice for the automaticity of the small words in a context where the largest ones would be easy for her.

 

What is her reading interest and comprehension level as compared to decoding level?

 

We used to play hangman with whole sentences that gave practice in seeing that a single letter word could only be 'a' or "I' -- that a two letter word might likely be a number of things, but it got the possibilities practiced a lot in a fairly fun way.

[Pen]

I think our reading approach was a bit like the computer is doing for math problems on Alcumus. 5 of 5 right, it goes on to next topic. A wrong answer gets another try. Wrong again, means marked wrong and extra practice required before topic is considered passed or mastered.

 

More correct it gives harder problems, more wrong and it adjusts and gives easier ones...

 

Or as where it suggests a video or something to read, I would be looking for other strategies, tools, etc.,

It was a constant dance...

[Lecka]

I think for my son ------ what I see is not "practicing mistakes."  What I see is "a breakdown." 

 

I think when he is making mistakes, this is a sign of a breakdown in the whole reading process. 

 

The whole process involved a lot of things.  A breakdown in one area, can show up in another area.  Or little things being off in multiple areas, can result in a breakdown. 

 

So I think it is like ----- for smooth reading, or as smooth as possible for him, then every little piece has to be working properly. 

 

But the piece or pieces contributing to the breakdown ----- may not be directly "here is the mistake that was made."

 

And so he needs all the composite pieces, and he needs them separately, so that he has a chance, a shot to learn them.  He does not do well at learning more than one element at the same time.  He really needs things broken down. 

 

But ------- he also needs huge, massive amounts of practice at the composite activity ----- reading text.  And so the fluency stuff is really important for him.

 

But will fluency help when the root causes are not all identified?  No.  Why would it?  For kids who can finesse some things on their own and pick things up on their own, well, that is great for him.  My son is very smart in other areas but that does not happen for him with reading.

 

So I think that every underlying thing has to be addressed to the extent possible, to allow for the pinnacle skill, which is reading connected text.  The pinnacle skill is not phonemic awareness of decoding or decoding of multisyllable skills. 

 

For kids who get those skills and then make a leap that extends to every area ----- that is great.  Maybe they had some other skills built up already, or in place already, that allowed that leap. 

 

But if it is all needing to be built up ---- then that is just how it is.

 

I am looking over my Wiley Blevins Intermediate Phonics book.  I use it as a resource, I like it quite a bit.  He gives lists of possible causes of reading problems that need to be addressed.  It could be -- phonemic awareness, Dolch words, phonics knowledge, context strategies (yes, context strategies, lol), etc, etc, etc.  Then ---- he does not mention, but there are other things that could be going on that could effect reading, and maybe working on those, could help with reading, too (the things that are not directly related to reading, but do lead to improvement for some kids). 

 

So it is not like ---- it is just one little thing. 

 

Also for my son ---- being able to decode a word is the first step for him in the process that will lead to him being automatically recognize a word.  But that is not any slow process.  It is a long process, it takes a lot of practice.  Then it is even harder when connected text and keeping track of meaning and scanning ahead to figure out how to group words together, is brought in to the picture. 

 

I have looked at strategies (mostly from Wiley Blevins and readingrockets.org, but also from other places) for EVERY SINGLE ONE of these things, and tried to take out one issue and work on it, b/c as I said, he cannot learn two things at the same time.  He needs very focused practice on one thing at a time to the extent it is possible.

 

So that is a long answer -- but I think it is both here.  He needs a strategy, he needs practice to "know" the strategy, he needs practice to be able to "apply" the strategy, and then he needs practice to read connected text where "that plus other things" are all going on at the same time and he needs to be applying multiple strategies at the same time. 

 

But I do think it is more like a breakdown.

 

I do not see a lot of his errors as errors caused by practicing an error.  Possibly b/c for the first two years or so of his reading instruction, once he could blend, he rarely ever read without reading aloud with me next to him.  He was reluctant and didn't seek out reading on his own for a long time.  He might be sitting with a book, but he was not reading it.  At school -- in 1st grade and 2nd grade both he had teachers who were very good with reading, and got to be in a special smaller reading group, and work with the teacher instead of ----- well, the two higher reading groups might be doing group work with an aide or volunteer, or whatever, they did not need the one-on-one support and had a lot of other options. 

 

My son is doing horrible with math facts, too.  But he can do math anyway.  He just gets stuck somehow, a lot of the time.  I have tried a lot but I haven't tried a lot like I have with reading.  B/c -- he was a non-reader, even "non- or pre-alphabetic."  But in math he has always (usually) done well apart from math facts. 

 

Oh ----- and the breakdowns happen less (at this point -- do not happen) when he is in lower-level reading.  He is even reading pre-school story books to my little kids, with expression.  It is amazing.  It is low enough that he does not have the breakdown at all.  But as the level gets harder, it does seem like, yep, the background stuff (I think lack of automaticity to some point, for him) creeps up, and then the breakdowns start to happen more, and the breakdowns get bigger and more noticeable.

 

But I also think the explanation of "demands on working memory, so that things fall apart as more working memory is needed for things that are not done automatically" seems to really fit him.  I think that is what I am seeing. 

 

So I see lots of little things, but separately, I see the "demands on working memory."  I think  his working memory is fine, it is just not able to compensate for the little things when they add up. 

[Ivey]

But with the math analogy - do you correct his math mistakes the second he makes them? Are you sitting next to him making sure he doesn't go on unless the mistake is corrected or do you just go back and show him the mistakes (at the end of the page) and have him correct them after the fact?

 

For a math comparison, DD has never improved from XtraMath (speed/correct the mistake immediately) but she has improved from doing a multiplication table (strategy + corrected after the fact).

 

When we're working on a new concept, yes, I correct each problem as we go. He then moves on to do some independent practice, and we check his answers together at the end of the section. When he was younger, I sat with him the whole time. We ended up having to come up with a very visual way for Ds to learn his math facts, so I'm not sure whether immediately correcting him helped at all with his facts, but it does seem to be working well for higher level math.

 

From the other thread

 

This example hopefully helps explain why I compare it to math facts.   If I predicated reading on 100% accuracy in small word skips - DD would be reading at 1st grade level (for the rest of her life it feels like), just like if I predicated math on 100% accuracy of math facts, she would still be at the addition level. 

Sorry, it was late when I read this last night, and I definitely misunderstood what you meant! By "perfect practice", I don't mean that Ds had to read with 100% accuracy before we moved on to harder books. I didn't test him or keep track of how many errors he made at a certain level to know when to move up - we just read at a level that was challenging, but not frustrating for him. When I say perfect practice, I just mean that I didn't ignore errors. With a math worksheet, you can go back, point out the ones they missed and have them correct them. With reading, I can't go back and say "You skipped a "the" here and said "for" instead of "of" here" and have him read "the, of". It has to be done immediately. 

 

Just thinking aloud here while I'm sitting in a waiting room, do you think it would help at all to have her do something like circle every "a" and underline every "the" while she reads aloud? Just to slow her down and make her really pay attention to the little words? Maybe have her whisper every "a" and shout every "the"? 

[LaughingCat]

Lecka's post fits in with what I am trying to say.   I think DD needs some kind of broken down strategy/practice in how specifically 'not to skip'  little words/endings (and the other issues she continues to have too - not just the skipping).   Just having her read easier material or slow down or pointing it out to her immediately - she just hasn't gotten it from those.

 

Even though my title proposed practice vs. strategy,  I do agree that it's not just teaching the strategy alone but include lots of practice in that specific strategy.  But not at 100% immediate correction rate.  And with Rewards I even did start treating parts like a math sheet  - go back at the end and mark the ones she did wrong and have her do those over again instead of immediate correction.  It made her a lot happier and appears to have lead to the same result.

 

But I do agree that when you are first teaching a strategy, you need to be right on them saying "this way, not that"

 

 

[Lecka]

/hypothetical

 

Instead of difficulty, could you try working up by length? 

 

So starting with practicing one word with the problem area (endings).

 

And start with reading 2 or 3 word phrases with the problem skipped words.

 

Maybe on a flashcard, maybe as a list (or words, or of 2-3 word phrases).

 

Then go to a 2-word phrase with the problem ending, and read a series of 2-word phrases (maybe not a ton -- maybe like 5 or 10, but frequentish sessions).

 

Then go to a 4-5 word phrase. 

 

(I do think I would just do endings or missed words at a session, and have at least 2-3 endings or words per session, so she practices discriminating.)

 

Then keep the number of phrases, pretty short, and try for more instances of practice.  Try to keep it very relaxed, let her see that it is a short list, there is no need to panic or get nervous (though she might anyway ---- at least maybe it will be less panic or nervousness).  And be very positive and give her some candy or whatever. 

 

And then just slowly build up. 

 

I have seen the "start with a very short amount of connected text, and slowly increase the amount of connected text" as a strategy and I think it is good. 

 

I have seen "word: sentence: paragraph" as a progression.  That is more advanced than going "word: short phrase: longer phrase: longer phrase: sentence: 3 sentences: paragraph." 

 

And ------ the key thing is ----- the comprehension demands are way, way, way down.  Comprehension is, to a great extent, taken out of the picture. 

 

B/c -- reading longer connected text, the demand of comprehension is always there.  And that is a high demand!!!!  Taking up lots of brain power!!!!  Keeping brain power away from little things and not allowing little things to get their day in the sun! 

 

That is the strategy I am thinking of ----- if I think of more I will let you know. 

 

But that is what I would do ----- and there is such a thing as an approach to fluency where kids do just read short phrases for a long time, that are not part of a story or anything.  So there is no "building meaning" overall ---- but I think that is okay if that is not the target.  Though of course ----- I wouldn't expect doing that to be like "the most awesome fluency intervention ever, to be done, and no other fluency intervention will ever be needed again."  But I would try it. 

 

To me though --- practicing below the sentence level is important, at the phrase level, or maybe the sentence level sometimes.  Not just --- "well let's practice this in the context of reading that includes figuring out what is going on." 

 

(Which I can see thinking ---- well wouldn't repeated reading of a text also do the same thing?  And in a way it is similar, b/c with practice the subject matter is already known, but I think it could be more concentrated and less memorized, than in repeated reading, if that makes sense.  Just an idea.)

 

I have some optimism that maybe she doesn't break down at the 3-word-phrase level.  You know?  Maybe that level is fine.  Maybe the sentence level is even "no breakdown."  I think you find where you see the breakdown start, drop back two notches, start there, and hope to see progress.

 

That would be optimistic.  And if it doesn't seem like it works ---- I would look some more, I guess.

 

My son is not a really problematic word skipper, and he almost never reverses sequences ----- so I think -- maybe this idea that would make sense for him, would not make sense for everyone.  But I will keep my eyes open, too. 

 

Edit -- if she missed them even in very short phrases, I think I would try to highlight words with a highlighter or trace the letters, then practice them?  But if she has a starting level, then just slowly and gradually increasing might not be too bad. 

 

Also -- if there is any thing you know she likes..... color, larger font, dry erase board, etc etc etc I would feel free to start there and work toward making the phrases smaller or move to them being black and white, or on a piece of paper or a flashcard, after she has some success on her favorite format, if that is possible. 

[Lecka]

/serial

 

I think there is a big issue to with how you are correcting her.  I found out about this from this forum.

 

During a reading task ----- for some kids it really interferes to give oral correction.  Hearing other language can just set them back a huge amount ---- it can be a great demand.

 

Which means ---- you can try visual or physical signals.  Like -- a touch, a hand squeeze, a tap.  If you have a template -- touch the template at the appropriate location. 

 

Following along with a mechanical pencil over the line and pausing ---- that is one I have seen mentioned as being good.  (That was the top recommendation, iirc.)

 

But I think too ---- at a certain time, kids have to practice -- b/c how else will they learn to self-correct?  How else will they have a chance to realize "that didn't make sense, let me re-read."  I think that in of itself was a skill for my son....

 

You might try to ask her -- would some non-verbal prompt help her?  You might also negotiate times when you are going to require that you sit with her and correct errors, but have other times when you save up errors.

 

I also DO get to a point where ------ if it is not changing the meaning, I am okay with a little bit sometimes, of reading a section in the past tense instead of in the present tense.  I have seen -- as soon as my son reads the first tense incorrectly, he follows along and the rest of the paragraph is in the same tense.  Or -- he does go back and self-correct. 

 

And I think it is worth letting it go when it is minor, so that he can actually have a chance to read and not be stopped, and also have a chance to self-correct. 

 

But that is the kind of thing where ----- it definitely needs to be below his instructional level, or it is just going to be way too many balls to keep in the air for him.  And really -- I do think he can improve on his own, without my help, once he can self-correct.  So he makes a mistake and then self-corrects, or he can decide for himself to ask a question, or he can decide for himself to just skip over a word if he can still make sense of what is going on well enough to suit him. 

 

(And I have to be okay with that sometimes, b/c he is reading Harry Potter at school, and I know there are times he skips over 3-syllable words, and just keeps reading, b/c it is fine with him.  Honestly it is hard for me in a way -- I am "picky" -- but if it is okay with him, it is okay with me, and I just know I am going to be doing more decoding with him and I am going to be doing more to add vocabulary words to his oral vocabulary so that they are easier for him to transfer to his reading vocabulary.  But he has also improved a lot reading Harry Potter, I think.  I have read them to him and he has seen the movies and played some of the video games, so he is pretty familiar with all the plot and characters, so in that way the comprehension demands are a lot lower than they would be if he did not already intimately know the plot and characters.)

 

(Also -- my Wiley Blevins has sample templates for kids to keep with them, with steps to take if they come to a word they don't know or a passage they do not comprehend.  I have not really made use of them -- but since I was flipping through the book I saw it again and think it is something I might use this summer ---- but I would do it by pointing at a step on the template, instead of using spoken language, while practicing ---- I think it might be easier on my son. But sample templates exist, so you don't have to give the same oral direction all the time, if oral is a problem.  In the book they are "available for kids to refer to as they read" but I don't know that I would use them that way -- but if I was going to, I would try to encourage him to look at the template and go through the steps on his own -- and maybe I will do that, I don't know.  I just think I could skip the "here is how to practice with the template" and practice other ways.)

 

Oh -- another thing I do to reduce the demands of comprehension, that is a recommended practice, is pre-reading.  That is also why series are good -- the characters are known, and the book may be following a verrrrry familiar structure and have a verrrry familiar plot.  So that mean less effort is needed for comprehension.  I have had a hard time, until the past few months, getting my son interested in a series.  So pre-reading has worked better -- he feels like he is "getting over" if he is doing a book I have read him before, during reading time.  So that is where his attitude is going to be good, out of the options.  I have also seen -- watch the movie first, then read the book ----- as a way to lower comprehension demands while still reading longer text.  Or just previewing -- say "I know a little about this book" or "what do you think this will be about based on the cover" or whatever.  That is supposed to help lessen comprehension demands, too (by filling in some information or thinking of some information). 

 

It is another way of building up and stairstepping and practicing. 

 

And I think it is ironic -- that "comprehension" strategies will also help --- b/c they are just one more thing that can be difficult about reading.  Even though my son's comprehension is not what really needs to be worked on, it is not, but still, every little bit helps to lessen the chance of a breakdown, I think. 

[Pen]

I think for my son ------ what I see is not "practicing mistakes."  What I see is "a breakdown." 

 

I think when he is making mistakes, this is a sign of a breakdown in the whole reading process. 

 

The whole process involved a lot of things.  A breakdown in one area, can show up in another area.  Or little things being off in multiple areas, can result in a breakdown. 

 

So I think it is like ----- for smooth reading, or as smooth as possible for him, then every little piece has to be working properly. 

 

But the piece or pieces contributing to the breakdown ----- may not be directly "here is the mistake that was made."

 

And so he needs all the composite pieces, and he needs them separately, so that he has a chance, a shot to learn them.  He does not do well at learning more than one element at the same time.  He really needs things broken down. 

 

But ------- he also needs huge, massive amounts of practice at the composite activity ----- reading text.  And so the fluency stuff is really important for him.

 

But will fluency help when the root causes are not all identified?  No.  Why would it?  For kids who can finesse some things on their own and pick things up on their own, well, that is great for him.  My son is very smart in other areas but that does not happen for him with reading.

 

So I think that every underlying thing has to be addressed to the extent possible, to allow for the pinnacle skill, which is reading connected text.  The pinnacle skill is not phonemic awareness of decoding or decoding of multisyllable skills. 

 

For kids who get those skills and then make a leap that extends to every area ----- that is great.  Maybe they had some other skills built up already, or in place already, that allowed that leap. 

 

But if it is all needing to be built up ---- then that is just how it is.

 

I am looking over my Wiley Blevins Intermediate Phonics book.  I use it as a resource, I like it quite a bit.  He gives lists of possible causes of reading problems that need to be addressed.  It could be -- phonemic awareness, Dolch words, phonics knowledge, context strategies (yes, context strategies, lol), etc, etc, etc.  Then ---- he does not mention, but there are other things that could be going on that could effect reading, and maybe working on those, could help with reading, too (the things that are not directly related to reading, but do lead to improvement for some kids). 

 

So it is not like ---- it is just one little thing. 

 

Also for my son ---- being able to decode a word is the first step for him in the process that will lead to him being automatically recognize a word.  But that is not any slow process.  It is a long process, it takes a lot of practice.  Then it is even harder when connected text and keeping track of meaning and scanning ahead to figure out how to group words together, is brought in to the picture. 

 

I have looked at strategies (mostly from Wiley Blevins and readingrockets.org, but also from other places) for EVERY SINGLE ONE of these things, and tried to take out one issue and work on it, b/c as I said, he cannot learn two things at the same time.  He needs very focused practice on one thing at a time to the extent it is possible.

 

So that is a long answer -- but I think it is both here.  He needs a strategy, he needs practice to "know" the strategy, he needs practice to be able to "apply" the strategy, and then he needs practice to read connected text where "that plus other things" are all going on at the same time and he needs to be applying multiple strategies at the same time. 

 

But I do think it is more like a breakdown.

 

I do not see a lot of his errors as errors caused by practicing an error.  Possibly b/c for the first two years or so of his reading instruction, once he could blend, he rarely ever read without reading aloud with me next to him.  He was reluctant and didn't seek out reading on his own for a long time.  He might be sitting with a book, but he was not reading it.  At school -- in 1st grade and 2nd grade both he had teachers who were very good with reading, and got to be in a special smaller reading group, and work with the teacher instead of ----- well, the two higher reading groups might be doing group work with an aide or volunteer, or whatever, they did not need the one-on-one support and had a lot of other options. 

 

My son is doing horrible with math facts, too.  But he can do math anyway.  He just gets stuck somehow, a lot of the time.  I have tried a lot but I haven't tried a lot like I have with reading.  B/c -- he was a non-reader, even "non- or pre-alphabetic."  But in math he has always (usually) done well apart from math facts. 

 

Oh ----- and the breakdowns happen less (at this point -- do not happen) when he is in lower-level reading.  He is even reading pre-school story books to my little kids, with expression.  It is amazing.  It is low enough that he does not have the breakdown at all.  But as the level gets harder, it does seem like, yep, the background stuff (I think lack of automaticity to some point, for him) creeps up, and then the breakdowns start to happen more, and the breakdowns get bigger and more noticeable.

 

But I also think the explanation of "demands on working memory, so that things fall apart as more working memory is needed for things that are not done automatically" seems to really fit him.  I think that is what I am seeing. 

 

So I see lots of little things, but separately, I see the "demands on working memory."  I think  his working memory is fine, it is just not able to compensate for the little things when they add up. 

 

 

Nearly all of this fits what was the case for my son too. Especially the bold parts.

 

Except that he was phenomenally lucky in some ways  that his comprehension level was way above his reading level and still is at least somewhat above reading level, so there has never been a point where that is one of the big difficulties in terms of trying to comprehend at the same time as trying to hold all the other skills together. It was hard in the other direction of where he had to work on material that was not interesting to him.  And contrariwise, in my son's case I do think working memory is a problem, not just that it is taxed by his dyslexia. 

 

 For us, that was why the HN mainly (along with some extras like Talkingfingers) worked. Separate skills got practiced for very little bits of added material (and if it was still too much at once, I broke it down further)...and then there were numerous readers for the practice, practice, practice till he got to automaticity and fluency.  We used an analogy to basketball where many different skills needed to first be learned, and then practiced separately, and then might eventually come together with a whole team being able to play a whole game, and various other analogies as well, such as learning fencing when he was doing that.

 

I often wished that there were younger children available for him to practice reading to with feeling at levels that would be easy for him, but with a real reason and a genuine audience. I think your son is lucky to have that and I am glad it is going so well!

 

 

 

"practicing mistakes" comments I made were at least in part in relation to the original Halibecs' posts about what level to go to, where it seemed to me that instead of a new level they might instead work on greater fluency and automaticity with what they already had...

 

and related to Laughing Cat's posts and the issues of a vs. the  ... which to me if had been a consistent error (though it turns out it is not consistent) would most likely have related to reading the one as the other and it becoming a habit ... 

 

 

and also to just simply correcting my own prior post which had emphasized practice, but to clarify that practice of a mistake will tend to strengthen the brain connections and cement it in memory in the wrong way....

 

And then, I think Laughing Cat has in part started this s/o thread because her experience for her daughter is apparently very different than mine with my son where tons of practice (along with, not instead of, effective strategies and the individual steps that were needed) has not helped her daughter, but that moving on with Rewards has helped.

[Pen]

Lecka's post fits in with what I am trying to say.   I think DD needs some kind of broken down strategy/practice in how specifically 'not to skip'  little words/endings (and the other issues she continues to have too - not just the skipping).   Just having her read easier material or slow down or pointing it out to her immediately - she just hasn't gotten it from those.

 

Even though my title proposed practice vs. strategy,  I do agree that it's not just teaching the strategy alone but include lots of practice in that specific strategy.  But not at 100% immediate correction rate.  And with Rewards I even did start treating parts like a math sheet  - go back at the end and mark the ones she did wrong and have her do those over again instead of immediate correction.  It made her a lot happier and appears to have lead to the same result.

 

But I do agree that when you are first teaching a strategy, you need to be right on them saying "this way, not that"

 

 

I think for some of this, I'd be looking for a tool, be that fingers, or one of those special cards with a window in it for the current area of text.

 

I personally find it hard to skip little words when my finger is pointing right at them.   :)    But I am not your dd.

 

I understand that you want some other strategy!

 

In general, so far as I know, most children start reading with something following the line for them, be that their own finger or that of a parent, or a pencil or pen tip, and then eventually their eyes are trained into the pattern of left to right and down slightly and the pointer gets dropped.

 

I realize you want another answer than that, and I hope someone else has it for you.

 

 

 

And I would probably work on fairly easy to discriminate word pairs like 'a' and 'the' in some context, and then go to progressively harder ones like 'in' vs 'an' -- and then maybe to triads like, in, an, on, and so on, making it progressively harder in very small chunks.  

 

Personally I would drop back the level of challenge in other aspects while working on that.  That is, I'd be looking to do the little words at whatever reading level point they get challenging, while totally separately, working on decoding skills at whatever level that is challenging.

 

I would not try to put the two things together to work on at the same time.

 

But maybe once she could do a type of word on its own well, say words like character and architect and technology became easy on their own, then I might add on articles or prepositions or other little words before the multi-syllable words ... but not yet in a reading passage.

 

My son never had an 'a' vs. 'the' confusion, because that is not the sort of reading problem he has. But he certainly did have trouble with similar looking words, like "if" vs. "it"  for example, and it took both strategies, like looking for the difference in the letters...where the curve is if there is one... carefully, and in his case, trying to find typefaces that would tend to make it more rather than less clear.   And also because in his case a little difference like that is really really hard for him to spot, no matter the typeface, also learning to use context cues  and several word ahead scanning to help.

 

And...a lot of...practice.  :)

[Pen]

From the after DB C thread - it was suggested that issues with skipping small words meant more 'perfect practice' was needed at not skipping words - since 'practice makes permanent' (to break the habit that had already been formed )

 

I said:

I equate the a/the thing to math facts - if I waited until DD could get math facts perfectly (i.e. no 'wrong' practice allowed) we would still be back in 2nd grade math doing addition.  

 

OTH going on in math has not stopped me from having her practice her facts.  I would love to find a way to 'practice' the a/the thing - separate from other reading ability. 

 

The thing for me is,I have never seen any improvement in general reading from just repeated or practice reading (out loud) - no matter how easy the reading, no matter if I am following a program's progression, no matter how much correction is done.   No improvement - not in word attack, not in skipping, not in tracking.  Improvement in reading that passage yes, improvement in chance of meltdown yes, in general reading ability, no.   

 

With the word "just"...no, nor did I ... it was practice that resulted in automaticity and fluency at each level, once  that level was gained by work that was not "just" practice.

 

Yet when doing Rewards, there was clear, obvious, large improvement - in the one area that Rewards focuses on, gives a simple strategy for, and includes ways to practice the parts of that strategy - multi-syllable word attack.   

When doing DB there was clear improvement in both guessing and unknown word reading (possibly the notched card alone is what gave that).  

And those 'strategy' style improvements, even when practiced on very hard for her passages, caused an improvement in reading easier passages - such that less skipping/replacing/tracking issues occurred. Even though those weren't what was being worked on in any way  (I attribute that to less brain being used by reading the 'hard' words and thus available to read the easy words and keep track of where DD is at in the passage)

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear thoughts on whether repeated practice with slowly getting harder is what has helped your DC most or whether a specific strategy has helped most, or specific program or both, or really, what do you attribute improvement to.

 

ALL of those!  

Again, the practice made reading automatic and fluent,

but

it was not how progress, achievements, were made in the first place.

That had to do with specific strategies,

tools,

HN as for us a successful program.  

 

Determination to succeed too, I think.... and also a belief that success was attainable.   Because a lot of "I can't" and "I'm stupid" was getting in the way.      

 

Also important: really being focussed, getting into working on bettering his performance at each practice session, not just going through the motions.

 

[ As an aside, I would love to find a strategy style program like that for issues like skipping a/the or losing one's place - a simple strategy with the ability to practice the parts of the strategy as well as the whole - separate from general reading.  I have thought of having DD just read a page of a/the/on type words alone every day (Abecd. style) even though she doesn't struggle when it is presented that way. Maybe if I mixed the easily dropped words in with harder words?  Like DB or Rewards word list type reading but adding a or the in front of the word?  - or I could do a VT near far sheet of only those words - or metronome style adding in a bouncing ball while reading (dd can't actually handle a metronome yet but can handle bouncing a ball).  Maybe adding a next level distraction like that might make it work. Hmmm! Ideas are percolating lol! ]

 

 

That sounds worth trying to me!

 

[LaughingCat]

Perhaps what I am hearing is the particular issues DD is struggling with now, just don't 'fit' in the standard struggling reader -  It sounds like for most people these types of issues have resolved naturally as the reading improved (improved by following a strategy with practice), whereas for DD sounding out/word reading improvement hasn't affected these issues substantially (she is better at these issues in easier reading than she used to be - just not anything like the jump that sounding out words had).

 

This doesn't really change my premise though - that finding a way to focus in on these exact issues will show improvement more than vanilla reading practice which has so far had no effect on resolving them. 

My only other premise is to push her sounding out/word reading level even higher in order to pull these issues higher along with it.  But that feels more like 'giving up' and living with it (although we'll continue working on that anyway - because I think she'll need it for reading the higher level words anyway).

 

As far as more specific things we have tried:

I did the free Abecedarian Level A fluency sheets with DD - which have 'the' and 'a' mixed in with many other 2 (and 3) letter words - and DD had no issue (100% right).

And we have also done 'short phrase' reading.  But not with variations purely on her particular issue short words - more like in this fcrr document - down at the bottom.   Along these lines, we have also done a number of 'changed' suffix sheets.  Both DB and Rewards have these.  DB with 1 ending + prefix (arm armed disarmed). Rewards with multiple suffixes (admit admitted admission admittance).  DD doesn't struggle with these at all (100% right). 

So I will try making my own phrases with lots of 'a's, 'the's, 'on's (and other words as she misses them) and mixing up the same words with different endings while I'm at it too.  And maybe look for passages with lots of  a's and the's - the NRRF level 3 one had 10 out of 50 words for instance, where most of the rest had only 3 or 4.

 

I think I will also try doing the Abecedarian sheets with some added hardness.  Dd can't quite handle the metronome, but skip counting while bouncing a ball has improved both her skip counting and her rhythm ability - so I can try that with the Abecedarian sheets.

And I think I will throw in the column style tracking sheets from PACE for that too.  We had stopped those and moved to the skip counting with ball because DD couldn't work to the metronome which is what the PACE program wanted (note: just have this from finding a manual at the library sale not from doing it with a provider).

 

And will continue to keep my eye out for other ways to address this in the meantime :D

 

FWIW we have done pen/pencil/plastic witch finger, both above and below, her finger, my finger, card with me controlling it above and below and card with DD in control.   Currently just DD's finger and bookmark or card if DD chooses (always below by her choice).

Also verbal corrections of various types (But no touch corrections. )

I am hesitant to head in this direction any more because we tried so many things with no result (or negative - as in meltdown or 'I'm so stupid' variety)

[Lecka]

nm

[LaughingCat]

Just wanted to add - that I am planning on taking all these ideas and mulling them over, along with the differing pov's.    I opened this thread hoping to hear all the different pov's (because I've been way off course before!).  And even ideas I think I've already done - well,l sometimes I just need to come at something I'd already dismissed from a different angle.

[Pen]

LaughingCat,

 

One thing I have wondered is what exactly you did in terms of the practice parts that did not work for you/her.

 

Exactly what materials and methods?

 

How many hours per day at the various times you tried it, and whether  in single or divided sessions, and how many days per week?

 

I think you said that you did it more than once for 6 months, but exactly how many sets of 6 months and at what stages were you trying this?

 

And with what exact readers, and how many, and at what level?

 

And what else were you doing for reading at the same time, if anything?

[Lecka]

I was really unhappy to go back to sight words (like Dolch words).  We had a really bad experience with me trying to just make him learn them, when he was not ready.  But then he did seem ready.  I did hate to go back to them, but sigh.  I did them a little different way, at least.

 

Pen -- I finally understand what you have said about having higher comprehension.  I have always thought my son had good comprehension.  He has always had good listening comprehension.  But his good listening comprehension did NOT transfer to reading for him.  He needed a lot of guidance.  Not like kids need who do not understand what is happening, but the kind that is more about ---- thinking about what you read as you read it, I guess, and paying attention to some things, and pre-viewing.  That was not natural to him at all.

 

So I can see how it would be different if those were all easy skills. 

 

My son has not really minded doing easy things.  He likes it better when things are easy, he would rather it be easy than hard.  I have not really had a problem with him being bored with materials that way.  I have to do short sessions and provide him with chances for success, and he gets his grape tea if he wants, but he has not been actually bored with low-level material. 

 

Bored kids do not learn well!  It is not really an option to just plow through while they are bored -- so I can see that being an issue. 

 

 

[LaughingCat]

Doing stuff that is easy with regard to reading is generally an issue with DD - it activates her "I'm too stupid" mindset.  For easy passages, I have tried Dibels passages( also used for repeated readings).  High Noon chapter books.  QuickBooks (also used for repeated readings).   Easier picture books.   Anything I could think of really.

 

The 6+months was repeated readings - reading the same passage 5x/week.  That is the longest I stuck with it (thinking it must work eventually!).   Otherwise, both repeated readings and corrections have just been on a 'this advice is so prevalent, lets give it a try again' basis - mixed in with whatever program we were doing.   100% corrections never had such a long trial - because it burns both of us out (DD falls apart daily, reading time becomes a huge fight just to get her to do it, I give up)

 

Time-wise, I have not ever been able to work with DD for large amounts of time - about 30 min max/day  (5 days/week) on reading specific work.   DD gets worn out, reading mistakes start multiplying and chance of falling apart escalates.    Many weeks we have not even managed that much per day.  We have also had various points where things were so bad (morale wise) we took a few weeks off.     I have made a couple wimpy attempts to do 2x/day - but doing reading work too early in the day pretty much kills the rest of the day for everything (including a later reading session).    If we are not reading 'passages' - just words or sentences -  the time can sometimes be pushed longer.

 

Comprehension seems ok to me, even on worst days where I can barely get the meaning from listening to her. (ETA: it is the 'stuttering' that makes it un-listenable - not actual reading errors)   She can narrate back what happened even when I think there is no way she got anything out of it.  She has trouble with remembering details - but that is across the board, not specific to reading aloud.   Also across the board is trouble with 'word play' and complicated phrasing.  Note: before Rewards, comprehension was more spotty - because she would guess the meaning of the words she couldn't read (and sometimes be way off)

 

 Program wise

School did Lexia and some other program I've never seen elsewhere (phonics based) (ETA: school also had us do repeated readings)

Yr 1 - Abec. B1 & B2, VT,  DB FT  (did a lot of other little things in here like phrase reading and phoneme manipulation work)

Yr 2 - Speech Therapy, LIPS (first part only), about 1/3 DB C, about 1/3 Abec. C - after LIPS it appeared that 'fluency' was the main issue so did the 6+ months of repeated readings

Yr 3 (this year so far) - VT, Rewards Secondary, currently in-between  - just read aloud Liberty or Death by Betsy Maestro only correcting misread words (i.e. didn't using Rewards strategy), line skips, and meaning changes

 

It seems like I am missing something in Yr 2 but can't think what lol!

 

Probably going to do one of the Rewards Plus books next because although hugely improved DD still needs practice with this.  At one point I thought I could just substitute reading  (ala the Maestro book) but now I think the 'extra' parts are part of the 'broken down' practice she needs.

 

Note-  I think I will do a data comparison of hard vs. easy passages again.     I have been asking her to do an easy reading as 'warm up' lately  - so should be able to 'sneak' it in.  That will make sure I am not thinking things haven't changed when they have.  Plus my focus with be on these issues - where before my main focus has been on ability to read the words.

 

I looked at the Abecedarian sheets last night and ended up making my own sheet with only short words that cause an issue.   We'll be trying it out today and see what happens.    I'll worry about endings later - after I see how this does.

[Lecka]

I wish you the best!!!!!!!

 

 

 

[LaughingCat]

So DD blew through my homemade sheet of short words, 100% right while bouncing a ball

Here's a sample "is    the    as    of    it    in    a    on   an"

This pretty much matches what I thought - although I did think bouncing the ball and saying it in rhythm would make it enough harder that she would miss at least 1.  I think I'll have to try the metronome with this and see what happens.

 

By comparison, to count by 2's from 0-30 in rhythm to a bouncing ball without messing up at least once she has to try multiple times  (at least she catches her own mistakes with skip counting).

 

 

[Pen]

thoughts and personal experience interspersed below...

 

 

Doing stuff that is easy with regard to reading is generally an issue with DD - it activates her "I'm too stupid" mindset.  

 

 

This was a huge problem for ds too. The analogies to sports and learning all the little tiny bits and doing it again and again, and then putting the parts together was a helpful analogy for him. Also watching a DVD with parts on how the brain's connections "grow" with practice.

 

Now too at tween stage we have talked about the blooming that happens in early adolescent brains, and that then in later stages of adolescence what is not used will be pruned, making it a key time to build whatever brain skills one will want for life. Not that it will be impossible later, but harder. 

 

For him it helped to acknowledge that it was harder for him than for some people, but that many people have things that are hard for them and that require more work than for others...we talked about things that otoh were easier for him that others had had to work on harder.

 

We were always doing our repeated reading practice (rrp) with materials easier than were at the forward edge of decoding work, because that fluency and automaticity had to be built

 

 

For easy passages, I have tried Dibels passages( also used for repeated readings).  High Noon chapter books.  QuickBooks (also used for repeated readings).   Easier picture books.   Anything I could think of really.

 

The 6+months was repeated readings - reading the same passage 5x/week. 

 

This is not what we were doing that worked for ds.

And for my ds I do not think it would have helped bec. that particular passage would have gotten memorized, but the needed brain patterning would not have been achieved, to actually read at that level with fluency.

 

What we exactly did might vary a little depending on moment to moment need, but it was more like taking 3 whole books from High Noon at a single level, say all 3 A-1 books, and working through them on after another going as slowly as needed to get the words right (with me reading out loud if needed was said to be okay for first time, but we did not actually do that). Then doing them again, with more fluency in place possible, not one book over and over because of the difference between memorizing a book and becoming fluent in its patterns. Then as the first group of 3 at that level started to get more easy and fluent, another set of 3 would start to be added in... and then as those were getting to fluency stage, the last group of 3, by the time the 9th book of the A level was reached, he was able to basically read it through (maybe not with great feeling or absolute perfection, but pretty well) at the first reading, rather than that stage coming by maybe the third reading.

 

After all the A level books were done, he went on to the B level books. (I better add that it has now been a while and I may recall the letter-number designations wrong, but I do know for sure that there 3 sets of 3 at each level, and that we had to use all of them. At least early on. As more and more words became automatic and fluent and as some of the reading process did too, it actually started to get a little easier even though the material was getting harder.)

 

For him it was usually 3 readings of each of 9 books that led to fluency...but I was told that it could be many more times through each book needed for some children. ... and that a few might even need more material than that for their rrp work. (HN had used to have only 2 sets of 3 each, and then added another for children like my ds who needed another set, there apparently being enough of them out there to justify the 3rd set.)

 

At the same time, he was also working through the Intervention Program, so his decoding skills had moved on ahead of his chapter books for fluency and automaticity generally before even starting any rrp work at each level.

 

 

 

That is the longest I stuck with it (thinking it must work eventually!).   Otherwise, both repeated readings and corrections have just been on a 'this advice is so prevalent, lets give it a try again' basis - mixed in with whatever program we were doing.   100% corrections never had such a long trial - because it burns both of us out (DD falls apart daily, reading time becomes a huge fight just to get her to do it, I give up)

 

Time-wise, I have not ever been able to work with DD for large amounts of time - about 30 min max/day  (5 days/week) on reading specific work.  

 

It was a fight. And I was told that it was my job to insist, demand, persist. Even if he through a tantrum, no matter what. We did try to make it as pleasant as possible for both of us and to have incentive rewards (for both of us!) At 30 min per day often there were tears. I was told to tell him the reason that it was "too hard" was that he was not doing it enough, not that it was too much for him. We worked 2.5 to 3 hours per day 5 days per week, 1/2 hour on the weekends -- EVERY day, except for Xmas day, Thanksgiving, and birthday, for over a year.  And we would have gone on longer if that had been needed. I was told to expect up to 3 years. But before that happened he had gotten to where he could read and liked to, and where getting him to stop and do anything else became the new battle.

 

And this was for remediation at grade 3-4. I was told also to tell him that if he did not do it then, it would take even longer later, since each year that he was not reading he was losing all the practice time that others at his age (like a best friend) were getting daily.

 

This comes from research done by Sally Shaywitz and other in the field.

 

I am sorry to tell you, but, so far as I know, that is the way it is. Unless there is both a right program and sufficient intensity the results you want to see are unlikely to happen.

 

Our sessions were usually only a half hour at a time, and then there was at least a little break between sessions, if not a long one. But it was truly intense and extensive. And it was not easy for us. But it did work.

 

What you are describing would not have worked for us either. It is not the right type of practice, and it is not intense enough.

 

I am not saying that what you are doing will not perhaps someday end up making her into a competent and fluent reader. It might. Though to be honest, everything I learned about the process says to me it won't.

 

What I do want to make clear is that what you think you did and say did not work for your daughter is NOT at all what we did and that did work successfully for my son.  It was absolutely grueling. Make no mistake. For us it did work.

 

What you actually did, I can tell you, did not work here either. It was the sort of thing I had been trying to do in our first year of homeschooling--and I had thought it was a lot based on my own tiredness and that of my son. But then when I really committed to a full out effort (and so did he) progress started to be made. We got almost nowhere until the intensity was ramped up to 7 days per week and many hours on the main 5 school days. Those are the hours that were measured on a timer (which incidentally was stopped if a bathroom or other break was needed); they do not include time that at some points as he started to get happy with progress got spent on the phone to a relative, or looking things over on his own.

 

Also we did the practice in many places and circumstances, so that it was not that he could only do it in a certain place, but that it had not generalized to other times and locations and situations (home, in and out and various rooms, car, waiting rooms, school, library).

 

By doing this he got to where most basic reading patterns were second nature, allowing working memory to deal with the difficult new stuff encountered instead of needing to use active mental energy for every little bit of the process.

 

 

 

DD gets worn out, reading mistakes start multiplying and chance of falling apart escalates.    Many weeks we have not even managed that much per day.  We have also had various points where things were so bad (morale wise) we took a few weeks off.     I have made a couple wimpy attempts to do 2x/day - but doing reading work too early in the day pretty much kills the rest of the day for everything (including a later reading session).    If we are not reading 'passages' - just words or sentences -  the time can sometimes be pushed longer.

 

Comprehension seems ok to me, even on worst days where I can barely get the meaning from listening to her. (ETA: it is the 'stuttering' that makes it un-listenable - not actual reading errors)   She can narrate back what happened even when I think there is no way she got anything out of it.  She has trouble with remembering details - but that is across the board, not specific to reading aloud.   Also across the board is trouble with 'word play' and complicated phrasing.  Note: before Rewards, comprehension was more spotty - because she would guess the meaning of the words she couldn't read (and sometimes be way off)

 

 Program wise

School did Lexia and some other program I've never seen elsewhere (phonics based) (ETA: school also had us do repeated readings)

Yr 1 - Abec. B1 & B2, VT,  DB FT  (did a lot of other little things in here like phrase reading and phoneme manipulation work)

Yr 2 - Speech Therapy, LIPS (first part only), about 1/3 DB C, about 1/3 Abec. C - after LIPS it appeared that 'fluency' was the main issue so did the 6+ months of repeated readings

Yr 3 (this year so far) - VT, Rewards Secondary, currently in-between  - just read aloud Liberty or Death by Betsy Maestro only correcting misread words (i.e. didn't using Rewards strategy), line skips, and meaning changes

 

It seems like I am missing something in Yr 2 but can't think what lol!

 

Probably going to do one of the Rewards Plus books next because although hugely improved DD still needs practice with this.  At one point I thought I could just substitute reading  (ala the Maestro book) but now I think the 'extra' parts are part of the 'broken down' practice she needs.

 

 

Once a certain stage was reached he was able to read regular books like Magic Tree House or Hank the Cowdog.   But until that stage came, he needed the carefully written books that had a very controlled and step wise approach. For us that was found in HN, but I think there are others that have this available. I was cautioned that most beginning readers, even if labeled in a way that makes it seem like they are on a stepladder of difficulty, do not fit this model. 

 

Note-  I think I will do a data comparison of hard vs. easy passages again.     I have been asking her to do an easy reading as 'warm up' lately  - so should be able to 'sneak' it in.  That will make sure I am not thinking things haven't changed when they have.  Plus my focus with be on these issues - where before my main focus has been on ability to read the words.

 

I looked at the Abecedarian sheets last night and ended up making my own sheet with only short words that cause an issue.   We'll be trying it out today and see what happens.    I'll worry about endings later - after I see how this does.

 

I hope I am not sounding too tough here, but Mamma needs to set the rules and requirements and not give in to "it's too much." 

 

I don't think you are yet at a point where you can conclude that practice just did not help your particular child.

 

By comparison with what we did and which did help, you have not actually done the intense practice needed. Not in method, not in time and intensity.

 

And it is possible that she would need even more than my ds needed, perhaps because of her particular deficits, and also almost certainly now because she is older with a bigger gap to bridge, between what she has been doing and what good readers have been doing for the past however many years. And maybe too because she has to unlearn some bad habits as well. Again, I was told that some children might need more than on average 3 readings per book to achieve fluency, and that it might well take 3 years at that level of intensity to start to catch up to where his own abilities and desires might make reading something that would happen daily without a struggle. 

 

And of course too, at some level, dyslexia is for ever.

 

It is very very hard work, and I can understand both of you not wanting to do it.

 

Anyway, the very best of luck to both of you with whatever you choose!

[LaughingCat]

I just wanted to clarify that we did two different things - easy readings (going through one book once type thing) and (at completely other times ) repeated reading.     The one time go through is the only time when I did 100% corrections - I did not do 100% corrections on the repeated reading, only 'after the fact' discussion of mistakes (because that is the way our school had told us to do repeated readings I suppose - which is something to think about) and DD is not a memorizer - so memorizing a passage by reading it 5x was never an issue.  

 

We have also talked quite a bit about growing your brain and it has helped a lot (although I'd be interested in what DVD you watched, Pen! - since I'm still working on this)

 

However, it is true that I never managed to stick with easy readings for more than a few weeks in a row and definitely have never put in the amount of time Pen is talking about.    I will give that idea careful and long consideration (though I can tell I am still in "but Rewards worked without putting in all that time" mode ).

[Pen]

If something works for you/her without all that time, that's great! 

 

But maybe at some point my comments will help someone else for whom fluency and automaticity do require rrp, which according to brain research is likely to be more common than your daughter's situation.

 

We had a number of films that might have had that. Possibly: The Secret Life of the Brain (sounds like right sort of title), but also Inside the Living Body, might have had some. I also got everything I could find from Netflix DVD service on the subject!

 

 

 

I also want to caution (others reading this) that in looking for advice, it is important to distinguish between experience that is a "been there, done that, and we are past that stage" completely with a now fluent reader able to read adult level history books at age 11, or easily and pleasurably read something like Harry Potter then--having been a non-reader at age 9, which is my son's situation, and what I think is your situation which is finding something that seems to be helping a lot now, but, so far as I can understand it, not yet actually having gotten to the fluent reading at or above grade/age level stage. That your daughter does not end up memorizing passages read over and over, may also be significant and suggest that there is a deficit in some brain activity involved in memory, which may also make some of what works for her different. You may find that at the end of Rewards work she is totally fluent at her age/grade level, and you may find that you ultimately will still have to do rrp type practice or something else to achieve ease and fluency. Maybe the start with an easy passage will be enough for her without the time and stress we had.  But then, maybe I do not understand. It has gone back and forth between my thinking your daughter is reading at a 6th grade level, which has sounded fine for a tween, versus being able to read some 6th grade level words, but not yet at that level in terms of books and so on.

 

 

 

Also, just to add, we did not suddenly go from 30 min. per day to 2.5 hours, but that too, adding on time and the ability to read for sustained periods of time, was a learning curve, stepwise process as about 10-15 minutes per day were added. Once he did 2.5 hours, the 30 min. on weekends was easy-peasy, even though it had been declared "too much" not all that long before. He can now read, well, all day...and if he is engrossed in a novel, he sometimes does just that. 

[LaughingCat]

Hmm, I think I am not expressing myself well -- IMO it is not whether DD can read well enough at the 6th grade level vs. can only read some 6th grade words.   DD can decode 6th grade words (and plenty of higher level words too).  She is not reading them just by memorizing, because she does not memorize well.  She comprehends them just fine too.  And she can't read a book at the 6th grade level.

 

Am I right that decoding is not the end all it is made out to be (for DD anyway)? Or am I just fooling myself because so many other people (some tutors of many children), have found differently?  That is the question.

 

Or as I'm sure OhElizabeth would tell me - it just proves I need to get those evals :)

[Lecka]

Readingrockets.org has a link "helping struggling readers" and then "targeting the problem" and lists things besides decoding. 

 

For me -- I would say we have done: speech therapy, phonemic awareness ---- learning to blend, phonics and decoding to 2nd grade level, fluency, some decoding into higher level, and some comprehension. 

 

I have done a lot for fluency.  Just being able to decode did not get my son anywhere near fluency.  But before he could start fluency, he needed to be able to decode.  Before he could decode, he needed to be able to sound out words.  Before he could sound out words he needed to hear all the letter sounds distinctly. 

 

It does just keep going. 

 

Also for fluency -- from what I understand, it never ends for a long time.  B/c -- they are practicing and practicing with certain patterns and words.  But when they move up a little ----- new patterns and new words.  If it is taking a while to become "automatic" with patterns and words, that is still happening as new patterns and words come up in higher levels. 

 

I don't think my son is ever going to quickly become automatic with any pattern, or suddenly only need one-to-four exposures (as I have read is typical) to a word to be automatic with it.  So he will just have to practice more.

 

Decoding is really important, though. 

 

Are you asking -- why is she not doing better in reading, when she has gone through Rewards and can read words from Rewards?  That is what I would answer..... time to do more fluency. 

 

Fluency is for every level.... fluency done at 2nd grade decoding level, is not going to totally transfer to decoding done at a higher level.... as far as automatic recognition.  But the "reading with expression" and "paying attention to punctuation" I think will transfer. 

 

B/c it is a lot harder to read a word when it is part of connected text AND you are needing to scan ahead, group words so they make sense, and follow along with the meaning.  So -- you can know a word to read it in a list, but then still have trouble going to real reading. 

 

I think it is just practice, but targeted practice.  Really trying to practice just what you want.  There are Seeing Stars type programs, where they are working on automaticity of patterns (as my understanding) and Fair Prospects just had a thread looking for a program more about automaticity than decoding, from my understanding. 

 

I think you might look at a lot of fluency type things.  Maybe Seeing Stars.  Maybe a software package.  Maybe call Great Leaps on the phone -- I looked into them once and they said they welcomed phone calls (though this is 2-3 years ago by now). 

 

But if there is not improvement then it is the method and not your daughter or you!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[LaughingCat]

Obviously I have not been clear :) because she has gotten much better in regular reading as well - no way could she have read the Maestro book out loud prior to Rewards without many, many more decoding errors than she made.   Speed has picked up as well since the recent VT.  And she is reading a much higher level book to herself than previously (if still not long books). 

 

The issue now seems to me more unusual things - like skipping small words/endings and 'stuttering' .  And the answer to that (from lots of places online, not just this thread) seems to be either it's still a decoding issue or practice a lot and correct all errors and she'll get it eventually.

[Heathermomster]

Obviously I have not been clear :) because she has gotten much better in regular reading as well - no way could she have read the Maestro book out loud prior to Rewards without many, many more decoding errors than she made.   Speed has picked up as well since the recent VT.  And she is reading a much higher level book to herself than previously (if still not long books). 

 

The issue now seems to me more unusual things - like skipping small words/endings and 'stuttering' .  And the answer to that (from lots of places online, not just this thread) seems to be either it's still a decoding issue or practice a lot and correct all errors and she'll get it eventually.

Remind me please  How old is your DD, and how long has she been re-mediated?

[LaughingCat]

She is 11 yo.  Her independent reading level tests as early 4th grade and her instructional reading level tests from 6th to 8th grade (depending on the test).   Here is what I've done so far:

 

 Program wise

School did Lexia and some other program I've never seen elsewhere (phonics based) (ETA: school also had us do repeated readings)

Yr 1 - Abec. B1 & B2, VT,  DB FT  (did a lot of other little things in here like phrase reading and phoneme manipulation work)

Yr 2 - Speech Therapy, LIPS (first part only), about 1/3 DB C, about 1/3 Abec. C - after LIPS it appeared that 'fluency' was the main issue so did the 6+ months of repeated readings

Yr 3 (this year so far) - VT, Rewards Secondary, currently in-between  - just read aloud Liberty or Death by Betsy Maestro only correcting misread words (i.e. didn't using Rewards strategy), line skips, and meaning changes

 Of these things  it seems that either something has no apparent effect or causes a large change in a particular piece of the puzzle.  

What has caused a 'jump':

DB Fast Track - guessing and decoding short words

LIPS - misplaced letters and/or syllables in words both when speaking and when reading

Rewards - guessing and decoding for longer words

VT - speed improvement  (from ~ 60 wpm to ~110 wpm, which is still slow for her age)

 

Current reading issues IMO

1- skipping/switching mall words or endings

2- 'stuttering' - repeating words or phrases (occasionally this will just be a long silent pause )

3- she misses random words - maybe 1 every page - kind of a brain hiccup (she can read these words if I point to them at the end of the page but if I point to it at the time she will usually re-read it the same incorrect way)

4- mis-decodes (or guesses) - also about 1 word every page

5- mis- tracks and skips a line - down to ~once every other day (although after about 3 pages she will start to use her bookmark or finger to track)

 

On a 'good' day the skips/switches and 'stuttering' will barely happen, maybe once each every page - on a 'bad' day - whoa!  So much 'stuttering' it is hard to understand by listening ( I am reading along of course) and probably 4 or 5 misread small words or endings.  An average day will be in-between

 

ETA: She does not read better silently than orally.  For silently, she is currently into Geronimo Stilton.  I believe that is the right level for her as she made the jump to these herself with no input from me.  And she is actually reading them, whereas before she would 'say' she was reading a book but put little effort into actually reading it.    OTH she is trying to read James and Giant Peach and struggling with it.

 

So a random page from  Liberty or Death by Maestro (AR 7.3) has 152 words.  On a good day, within her instructional level @ 97%, on a bad day, still within her instructional level at 95% -- for actual misread words. But most of the misreads are skips/switches.   Or if I count each repeat as an error then not she's not even close to instructional!   So if I could correct missing the small words/endings and 'stuttering' she would theoretically be at independent level for this and sound fluent.  Both of these happen less as the material gets easier but still happen all the way down to first grade material.

 

Writing this out - I get where people are coming from saying 'she needs easier readings so she can get lots of practice doing it right'.    But I also see how doing the hard reading has been very good for her - just frustrating due to these issues (but! no fighting/whinging/falling apart while reading the Maestro book).   Perhaps I just need to  have her do both -- I have done this a tiny bit already by saying the easy reading is 'warm up' - so I could just pick out a 'warm up program' and do it every time. 

 

And I can still dream of and look for a specific strategy to teach her to 'catch' skips/misses on her own that do not involve Mom pointing it out :D

[Lecka]

Laughing Cat ---- maybe you could try choral reading?  This is reading along with a person, and when there is a mistake, you just keep reading, and they come back in.  We have done it, we do it sometimes.

 

I have also read about one where you purchase or make a recording, and she reads slowly with a slow copy, and then faster with a fast copy.  I have not done that.   

 

Or read along with a computer program that highlights the word as it is read, and see/hear it?  I have not used any like that, but I think Reading Assistant is a well-known one like that.

 

When I have done the choral reading, I have not done it with repeated reading.  My son, rarely now, but it used to happen a lot, would have times where it seemed like he forgot what he was doing and how to do it.  Then reading with him could be like a jump-start. 

 

But it sounds like she might not be consistent in when it happens ---- which makes a lto of sense to me. 

 

I do think maybe an audio or audio/visual might be a way for her to see that she is making skips, maybe she would take it better, maybe it would be more "in the moment" and also let her not lose her momentum.  That is how it is supposed to work in theory, lolol.  

 

Also when doing it this way ----- I think there is no need to have the moment of "here I am pointing out your errors."  I can just say "I heard a lot of good stuff there." Or "nice!"  My son can not like and seem to do worse with correction, so anything where I do not need to correct him but can just say positive things ----- is good. But he is still getting the corrective feedback.  (Unless he has gotten completely lost -- but that does not happen too often.  To me that would be a benefit of the highlighted word or highlighted line software, that I think exists.)

 

 

Also ----- I definitely have a mental structure where I am working on several goals in several ways.   So I might have an "encouraging independent reading" time.  A "helping a lot with something harder" time.  A "making him read something aloud that he can concentrate on reading smoothly." 

 

I think it is like with handwriting.  Sometimes you say "focus on good penmanship."  Sometimes you say "spelling is most important right now."  Sometimes you say "I really want to see capital letters and ending punctuation."  Sometimes you say "just try to get a good idea down."  I think it is the same kind of idea. 

 

I think since you see good results with pushing the instructional level ---- it sounds great to keep doing that, and maybe add something for the smooth reading.  Do you think you might be able to tempt her with anything?  I think it might be a time to try to find something she will find motivating and that seems like she could only need to focus on smooth reading, maybe b/c there are pictures, maybe b/c it is really easy, maybe b/c she already knows the story, etc.   

 

 

 

[geodob]

Though something that you might consider, is the difference between reading issues, and reading out loud issues?

Where they are both very different processes.

With reading out loud, it is read word by word.

But with fluent silent reading, words are read in word blocks.  Where the eyes don't move from word to word, but from word block to word block.

So that visually, words are processed as a visual group.

The other side of reading, is sounding out the words in our mind.

But an important thing about fluent reading, is that with 'small words' like: a, the, it, of, etc ?

Is that they don't need to be sounded out?

As they only need to be seen in the background, to be processed.

Without having to sound out every word?

This enables a more selective use of 'sounding out words'.

Where this sounding out of words, can be used in different ways?

Specifically, the key words of sentence can be sounded out clearly, while less significant words can be compressed into a slurred sound.

 

Having just sounded out the keywords of sentence? It is these words that are retained in short term memory, as this selective use of sounding out, has highlighted these words.

 

Though reading out loud, is a contradiction to fluent reading, as it imposes a reading word by word process.

Which creates a problem for the eyes, as they have to wait for a word or words to be read out loud, before moving on.

 

Though I must say that I have a concern with the way that reading out loud is used, for reading texts and learning to read?

Where reading out loud, is the only way to confirm whether a word is known or not.

Where it has its role in early childhood and learning new words.

With words grouped into horizontal word lists, across the page.

With pictures to provide a context.

 

But this reading out loud, shouldn't be confused with learning to read ?

Though learning how to read, isn't something that is currently taught.

How to read in different ways, and select the appropriate way, to suit what is being read.

[Heathermomster]

For my DS to quit skipping words as he reads aloud, he has to slow down.  He's trained himself to slow down with practice.  Early on, he also learned to scoop sentences.  Basically, he pre-underlined portions of sentences and then read the sentences in chunks.  He eventually internalized the process.

 

If your DD commonly skips articles, why not have her scan the document to be read and highlight the articles prior to reading?  A noun/pronoun with a descriptor adj, follow articles, so you could explain that too.  I'm not suggesting you do this all the time; however, she needs to understand that those words serve a function in the sentence.  

 

Reading fluency is like typing to me.  You only increase speed/fluency by practicing accuracy/decoding.  Accurate decoding comes first, followed by fluency.  Fully re-mediated, adult dyslexics commonly read slower than other adults, BTW.

 

Definitely work on harder reading materials with your DD.  Apply all the strategies at your disposal and continue to practice the easier materials too.  She needs to taste success.  Try to strike a balance and remember this all takes time.  

 

I see where people tutored for 2-3 years, their kids read, and that was not our reality.  My DS worked with a tutor for 5 years.  It took 3 years to get the reading down and then 2 more years to polish the reading up.  We are now working on comprehension, summaries, and close reading.  The process doesn't appear to end.

 

ETA:  A study of affixes and roots are generally recommended for dyslexics.  DS spent time studying that in tandem with reading instruction.  Actually, he is still studying roots and affixes.

[Pen]

She is 11 yo.  Her independent reading level tests as early 4th grade and her instructional reading level tests from 6th to 8th grade (depending on the test).   Here is what I've done so far:

 

 Of these things  it seems that either something has no apparent effect or causes a large change in a particular piece of the puzzle.  

What has caused a 'jump':

DB Fast Track - guessing and decoding short words

LIPS - misplaced letters and/or syllables in words both when speaking and when reading

Rewards - guessing and decoding for longer words

VT - speed improvement  (from ~ 60 wpm to ~110 wpm, which is still slow for her age)

 

Current reading issues IMO

1- skipping/switching mall words or endings

2- 'stuttering' - repeating words or phrases (occasionally this will just be a long silent pause )

3- she misses random words - maybe 1 every page - kind of a brain hiccup (she can read these words if I point to them at the end of the page but if I point to it at the time she will usually re-read it the same incorrect way)

4- mis-decodes (or guesses) - also about 1 word every page

5- mis- tracks and skips a line - down to ~once every other day (although after about 3 pages she will start to use her bookmark or finger to track)

 

On a 'good' day the skips/switches and 'stuttering' will barely happen, maybe once each every page - on a 'bad' day - whoa!  So much 'stuttering' it is hard to understand by listening ( I am reading along of course) and probably 4 or 5 misread small words or endings.  An average day will be in-between

 

So a random page from  Liberty or Death by Maestro (AR 7.3) has 152 words.  On a good day, within her instructional level @ 97%, on a bad day, still within her instructional level at 95% -- for actual misread words. But most of the misreads are skips/switches.   Or if I count each repeat as an error then not she's not even close to instructional!   So if I could correct missing the small words/endings and 'stuttering' she would theoretically be at independent level for this and sound fluent.  Both of these happen less as the material gets easier but still happen all the way down to first grade material.

 

Writing this out - I get where people are coming from saying 'she needs easier readings so she can get lots of practice doing it right'.    But I also see how doing the hard reading has been very good for her - just frustrating due to these issues (but! no fighting/whinging/falling apart while reading the Maestro book).   Perhaps I just need to  have her do both -- I have done this a tiny bit already by saying the easy reading is 'warm up' - so I could just pick out a 'warm up program' and do it every time. 

 

And I can still dream of and look for a specific strategy to teach her to 'catch' skips/misses on her own that do not involve Mom pointing it out :D

 

 

First, it sounds like she is basically doing quite well.   !!!

 

The stuttering may be an anxiety issue, and not have anything really to do with reading.  ???

 

I wonder if something like the 4th grade reading level books from HN on American History or American Civics would be helpful??? It could give the practice work at a controlled level, along with content that would not be at all babyish.  The Maestro book made me think of that possibility.

 

Otherwise, it seems like what you are doing is certainly moving her along, with different things giving her bursts forward at certain times, and while she does sound a bit behind, she only sounds a couple of years or so behind. I think in your case with the stuttering that to me sounds like it could be anxiety or something that really is different than reading per se, I too would not be trying for 100%.

 

Do you have any excellently done audio books that model excellent oral reading? If not, that too might help with that, perhaps, at some point.

 

Can she read and understand silently better than orally, where she is not feeling criticized and corrected?  If so, maybe let it be silent most of the time, for awhile ???   That too goes against conventional wisdom to keep it oral so as to catch mistakes, but perhaps in this case, there is some performance anxiety issue, or perhaps some speech issue that is adding to reading issues.    ?????

[Lecka]

I was also wondering -- if she would read anything at all with pictures -- if that might help with the repetitions?  If she can see that what she is reading is making sense with the pictures, maybe that could help? 

 

A lot of my son's independent reading still has pictures, either b/c he is reading to little kids, or b/c he is looking at comic-book type things. 

 

Also -- something else that I was thinking of.  Right now ---- a lot of my son's "required read-aloud time" is done while I am NOT following along with him.  I make him sit and read at the kitchen table while I am messing around in there.  I make him read in the car while I drive. 

 

This morning he read several pages of the Berenstein Bears and the Messy Room to my daughter while I drove him to school, and that is still nice practice for him.  He missed one word, by one letter, but didn't figure it out, and I prompted him just from context. 

 

I could not do his reading where I do need to be sitting with him, in that way, but I have a separate time for that. 

 

I also feel like it is never-ending here.  Even though my son is grade-level, because I started with him before 1st grade, it is a lot of work for him to stay at grade level.  He made a little jump this year, he is not right on the line anymore, he is a little above it.  But he has a long way left to go.  He is doing great, though. 

 

I was also wondering if there might be any way for her to read to little kids?  My little kids are so non-judgmental, they are just happy to be read to.  They do not mind some stops and starts. 

 

 

[beishan]

I am actually wondering about the same thing as geodob mentioned above. I had my son read a simple book from Raz-Kids this morning as we still have 15 minutes before we need to head out to school. He read it by himself first. There is only one word "gnawed" that he really has trouble with. Then he listened the model audio and learn how to pronouce "gnawed". At last he read again with more fluent speed but still has some minor errors (dropping ending sounds, he can self correct some this time). For the lower leveled reader, there are often repeated pattern in sentences so it serves the purpose for repeated practicing. However, I obersved my son and found that he automatically combine two sentences with same subject by using AND while reading aloud. But this does not happen when there is only one sentence each line. He also likes to use contration while reading aloud. Those do not impact his comprehension at all but will make him fail the reading assessment at school because he does not read word by word.

[LaughingCat]

She does not read better silently than orally.  For silently, she is currently into Geronimo Stilton.  I believe that is the right level for her as she made the jump to these herself with no input from me.  And she is actually reading them, whereas before she would 'say' she was reading a book but put little effort into actually reading it.    OTH she is trying to read James and Giant Peach and struggling with it.  So I think she is 'stuttering' to herself as well as outloud -- I would think the 'skips/switches' would not be affecting this so much since silent reading is different from reading out loud, as geodub says.

 

The 'stuttering' seems to me like the kind of thing that would normally get recommendations of VT here  - but VT has made no dent in it, in spite of the speed up in wpm. It seems like there must be something else there that I'm not cluing into. Although sometimes it just seems like a bad habit that she got into from trying to make no mistakes.

 

But yes, she is doing good!   I  was talking to her about this the other day (she knows about the 8th grade level test and is very proud of it) -- that reading is not just 'all weakness' for her anymore, that she has certain areas that are strengths for her in reading and we just need to shore up the weak areas.   A far cry from the start of last summer, when vocabulary was her only strength in reading.

 

And choral reading! :head slap:  I have seen it suggested plenty of places in the past, and even had her do some silent reading along to audio long ago,  but for some reason it wasn't hitting my radar at this time.

[Lecka]

My son will seem like he has "gotten stuck," and he will seem like he just has forgotten, momentarily, how to read.  Like -- he has forgotten what sounds the letter makes, or just how to start, or how to go on.  Or he will have the first thing, that comes to his mind, not be correct, and then have a really hard time moving on from there to a second try. 

 

I have seen it improve with time and practice. 

 

It has been a while since I have read James and the Giant Peach, but I think it has a lot of more abstract language and imagery.  I think it has long, wordy descriptions.

 

Geronimo Stilton, does have a lot of word play, but is also pretty plot-driven, and there are pictures. 

 

To me ----- I would just think ------ James and the Giant Peach is a harder book! 

 

But it is so awesome she is trying to read it!!!!!!!  I believe she would have just put it down if she was not getting it at all.  But she could be learning a lot as she struggles!  I think that is great news!  Good for her!

 

I don't know exactly what it is called, but there is a thing about ---- it is not the difficulty of the words used, but maybe sentences are longer and more descriptive ---- and that is something that "increases text difficulty."  I don't know exactly what it is called, but I am sure James and the Giant Peach is harder that way, even if the decoding level is not necessarily higher (and I don't know if it is or isn't).

 

Edit:  looks like the grade level equivalent is 6.7 for James and the Giant Peach.  2nd and 3rd grades "grade level equivalent" for Geronimo Stilton.

 

I think the decoding in Geronimo Stilton is a lot harder than 2nd grade, I think there are a lot of harder words --- but this one (grade level equivalent) goes more by "how convoluted is the writing, how easy is it to follow what is going on, are there page-long descriptions of what a forest looks like at night with lots of complex imagery" type of stuff. 

 

For example -- I looked at the Amazon preview, and while the words don't look too hard, there is a sentence on the first page with over 30 words, and lots of commas, and it is not as easy to follow as a sentence that is just "subject verb object" with 10 words. 

 

So I know -- on one hand, you look, and there are no hard words.  But the "text complexity" also can make it harder. 

 

(I look for grade level equivalent on scholastic book wizard)

[Lecka]

Frex... here is a line from Chapter 1 of James and the Giant Peach:  "he could see the ocean itself -- a long thin streak of blackish blue, like a line of ink, beneath the rim of the sky."

 

The words are all pretty basic, but that is way more abstract than anything I would expect to see in Geronimo Stilton. 

 

My point is just..... it is a harder book that way, it makes sense she would have a harder time.

 

I should add -- I think that quote is beautiful writing. 

[LaughingCat]

Good point about the sentence complexity - she does struggle with that.  I have never been able to figure out how to rank books sentence complexity wise :thumbdown:

 

I have seen a lot of people on these forums talk about the point where their DC loved Geronimo (and Thea) Stilton books.   So I think that shows what point in a 'normal' reading progression her silent reading is at.   And it is very nice to see her chugging through a number of books with no push from me.   But I don't think she is at the "and now she's reading The Lightning Thief/Harry Potter" level.

 

At this time I'm not even 'nudging' her silent reading choices but I do keep an eye on what books she tries and likes and what she drops pretty quickly and I think James will be dropped (but you never know).

 

[Heathermomster]

nm..

[Lecka]

I have seen a "rule of thumb" thing where you turn to 5 pages randomly and:  Count the number of words per sentence, and then estimate an average sentence length.  It is not perfect, but it is something.  Usually, the shorter the easier.