JadeOrchidSong Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Dh doesn't like fiction. Dc and I have been trying to get him to read HP. I hope everyone will read these books. I wish I had read them much earlier than just now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AurieD Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I'm re-reading them right now, I'm up to that Horrible Woman so I'm actually finding Snape quite nice right now! Jade, I can't convince my DH to read them either. But then the only book I've ever managed to convince him to read he didn't like which doesn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I cannot imagine the waiting agony when you read them as they were published. It was torture. I remember sitting under the tree in the back yard for two days, with a baby on the blanket next to me, reading and reading and reading when...5?....6?....6, I think, came out. (I'm pretty sure I did other things, like change diapers and feed the short folk in my house, but honestly, all I can remember is reading on the blanket under the tree for two sunny days.) It was really really hard to wait, LOL, but it was also... delicious... My eldest and I were hooked when Chamber of Secrets came out. So waiting for each of the subsequent books -- talking about them, analyzing them, rereading bits for clues, developing theories on what was going to happen, rushing out to B&N at midnight for the new ones as they came out and reading them aloud late into the night, fighting between family members for the one precious copy... was background to my kids' childhood. The anticipation itself was definitely part of the experience... I was wistful when the ride was over. No other series will ever -- can ever -- hold quite the same effect. It was, trite but true, magical.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippen Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I am so drawn to him all the way through all 7 HP books. I was so thrilled to learn the final truth in the Pensieve. I like him as much as or more than I like Harry. I only saw movie HP 1 yesterday. So my love for him has nothing to do with the actor. I can't find the interview now, but JK Rowling warned you girls not to fall for Snape! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I do wish that the Malfoys had been fleshed out a bit more. I think there was a lot that could have been done there as well. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busymama7 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 When the seventh came out we were still following the rule that I had to read pretty much everything first. I started reading it immediatly but it wasn't fast enough for my oldest. He kept begging me to let him have it. Finally we laid next to each other on the bed and read, from different parts of the book at the same time. We held up the pages in between. It's hard to explain and I wish I could find the picture but it is a great memory ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 One of the strengths of the series (as opposed, for example, to LOTR or the Narnia books, which for all their excellent qualities are rife with one-dimensional characters) is that virtually all the HP characters have a mix of good and less-good in them (Voldemort being the notably unredeemable exception) Woah, what?! Paint Narnia this way, if you must, but LOTR? No. Definitely not one dimensional characters. There are loads of complex characters who behave in unexpected ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I do wish that the Malfoys had been fleshed out a bit more. I think there was a lot that could have been done there as well. There are many people in those books who could have their own books. I'm not sure who would be interested though, other than us HP geeks. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadeOrchidSong Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 It was really really hard to wait, LOL, but it was also... delicious... My eldest and I were hooked when Chamber of Secrets came out. So waiting for each of the subsequent books -- talking about them, analyzing them, rereading bits for clues, developing theories on what was going to happen, rushing out to B&N at midnight for the new ones as they came out and reading them aloud late into the night, fighting between family members for the one precious copy... was background to my kids' childhood. The anticipation itself was definitely part of the experience... I was wistful when the ride was over. No other series will ever -- can ever -- hold quite the same effect. It was, trite but true, magical.... See, I didn't know anything of this sort until I read the series and posted questions here NOW. I would have traded my easy two months non-waiting reading of these books to the torturing loooonnnnng wait. I think that is part of the beauty, cruel though it seems, of good books. Rowling truly created the magic drawing so many people into her magical world. Unfortunately, I was left out, partially influenced by the controversy about the books, partially by my own ignorant choice. How I regretted it now! I am glad at least now I read them all and I never feel the same anymore. What I don't regret is that I let my boys read them NOW because at 9 and 11, they definitely could get more out of it than when they were a few years younger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 See, I didn't know anything of this sort until I read the series and posted questions here NOW. I would have traded my easy two months non-waiting reading of these books to the torturing loooonnnnng wait. I think that is part of the beauty, cruel though it seems, of good books. Rowling truly created the magic drawing so many people into her magical world. Unfortunately, I was left out, partially influenced by the controversy about the books, partially by my own ignorant choice. How I regretted it now! I am glad at least now I read them all and I never feel the same anymore. What I don't regret is that I let my boys read them NOW because at 9 and 11, they definitely could get more out of it than when they were a few years younger. Yes, I agree-but they are also the kind of stories that a person can return to over and over again and always find something new. All of my kids have read the series many times, and each has commented on that: they seem quite different when you read them at 16, than they did when you read them at 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Yes, I agree-but they are also the kind of stories that a person can return to over and over again and always find something new. All of my kids have read the series many times, and each has commented on that: they seem quite different when you read them at 16, than they did when you read them at 8. We often listen to the CD"s in the car. We've been doing it for 3 years now, and we still come up with new observations, questions, and AHA! moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 One of the strengths of the series (as opposed, for example, to LOTR or the Narnia books, which for all their excellent qualities are rife with one-dimensional characters) is that virtually all the HP characters have a mix of good and less-good in them I strongly disagree with LotR being rife with one dimensional characters, I cannot imagine how someone would feel that way. Which characters do you think are one-dimensional? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I strongly disagree with LotR being rife with one dimensional characters, I cannot imagine how someone would feel that way. Which characters do you think are one-dimensional? LOL... I know, them's are fightin' words, trash talkin' LOTR, for cryin' out loud... First, I didn't respond to Mrs Mungo's similar sentiments above because this is a Snape thread, and it's such a very good thread, and I wouldn't want to derail it, KWIM? Poor Snape really does deserve one little thread all of his own... So, I dunno, maybe we should take our strong disagreement outside or something? :huh: And second, no one, believe me no one, is more passionate than me about LOTR. However much I enjoy HP, it does.not.hold.a.candle to LOTR. (Nor does Narnia, nor Philip Pullman; let alone Hunger Games or Divergent or any number of other series into which I have plunged, with enthusiasm, with my kids.) It is its own category. But the goals are different. Pullman and Lewis are doing allegory, so of course some characters are allegorical (and, therefore, one-dimensional) -- that is to be expected; it follows directly from the genre. Tolkein is, I think, doing something slightly different from them, but it's still, also, different from and greater than straight up storytelling... I would maybe call it, creating myth. Some British notable -- maybe Somerset Maugham?-- said in an interview that Tolkein didn't create Middle Earth, he just "discovered" it. I love that idea... Anyway. LOTR's great mythological struggle, its great divide between Good and Evil... these are just given, in Middle Earth. There's no effort to explain how Sauron became Sauron. The orcs are just orcs. There's an alluded-to, and presumably interesting, story of how Saruman went to the dark side, but by the time we meet him he's pretty straight up evil. (And unredeemable. What is interesting and so, so optimistic about HP is that just about everybody, right up until that scene at King's Cross -- !! -- still has a shot at salvation.) The elves are nearly as purely virtuous as their counterparts the orcs are purely bad. Yes, Legolas has his one brief moment of loss of confidence, but the context there is that he's worried about the hobbits... yes, Elrond is ambivalent about getting involved in this round, but the context is that he's worried about his obligations to his own people. They're not influenced by any kind of weakness or vice, they just have competing constituents. Even Aragorn is larger than life, in a -- dare I say it?? -- bordering-on-one-dimensional way. Yes, he struggles internally with doubt. But that's different from making, as a pp said above about Snape, "crappy choices." His choices are above reproach. There are plenty of other characters, mostly the ones closer to the hearts of men (where the mythological battle is really being waged), who are rife with complexity: Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, Frodo, Sam. And Gandalf, well, he's the most complex and varied wizard out there. But the ones representing the mythological backdrop are, IMO, pretty one dimensional. (Which, let me hasten to add, I don't mean as trash talk. Truly...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadeOrchidSong Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 I can't find the interview now, but JK Rowling warned you girls not to fall for Snape!She can warn as much as she wants. As soon as a character is released from her hand, the character somehow takes on his or her own life and interacts with each reader in the most unique way that even the most clever author has no way of controlling. Feelings for a character are not formulaic, cannot be predicted sometimes, and may not need to be fully justified. That is my conclusion. ETA: I suddenly realize that I can express myself much more eloquently in English than in Chinese. Should I feel sad or glad? I will definitely write my memoire in English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadeOrchidSong Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Pam in CT, your post about LotR is great! That is also why I love HP books. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I will say this, though: the redemption of Snape IMO should still never have changed Harry's understanding of him; at least, not to the point it would EVER make a shred of sense that Harry would name his child after Severus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 ETA: I suddenly realize that I can express myself much more eloquently in English than in Chinese. Should I feel sad or glad? I will definitely write my memoire in English. Then we'll have to wait for the translation, and hope for a good translator. Or you could just be the translator. :D I will say this, though: the redemption of Snape IMO should still never have changed Harry's understanding of him; at least, not to the point it would EVER make a shred of sense that Harry would name his child after Severus. :iagree: What Snape did was brave but that doesn't change the fact that he was a bitter, nasty man. He was not worthy of a namesake IMO, and certainly not one of Harry's kids. Still, I think Harry was right in saying he was the bravest man he ever knew. He knew members of the Order, but none who but none who put themselves in the kind of danger Snape did for so long. Also Harry had a soft spot for his mother, more even than for his father. I think Snape's feelings for Lily colored Harry's feelings for Snape once he found out. Just because I can agree that he was brave doesn't mean I like him. I still don't like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Anyway. LOTR's great mythological struggle, its great divide between Good and Evil... these are just given, in Middle Earth. There's no effort to explain how Sauron became Sauron. The orcs are just orcs. There's an alluded-to, and presumably interesting, story of how Saruman went to the dark side, but by the time we meet him he's pretty straight up evil. (And unredeemable. What is interesting and so, so optimistic about HP is that just about everybody, right up until that scene at King's Cross -- !! -- still has a shot at salvation.) Slartibartfast and I have read all of the other stories and books. So, we know Sauron's backstory. That sort of thing probably makes a big difference. The elves are nearly as purely virtuous as their counterparts the orcs are purely bad. Yes, Legolas has his one brief moment of loss of confidence, but the context there is that he's worried about the hobbits... yes, Elrond is ambivalent about getting involved in this round, but the context is that he's worried about his obligations to his own people. They're not influenced by any kind of weakness or vice, they just have competing constituents. Even Aragorn is larger than life, in a -- dare I say it?? -- bordering-on-one-dimensional way. Yes, he struggles internally with doubt. But that's different from making, as a pp said above about Snape, "crappy choices." His choices are above reproach. I disagree. I'll only use the Aragorn character as an example so as not to totally overtake the thread, lol. Aragorn definitely has struggles. He struggles against his desires versus his duties. He struggles with the idea of Arwen choosing to become mortal for his sake. But...I realize it's not all within LOTR itself. That's the thing. It's a full mythology that *does* include the backstories of a lot of the other characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 LOL... I know, them's are fightin' words, trash talkin' LOTR, for cryin' out loud... First, I didn't respond to Mrs Mungo's similar sentiments above because this is a Snape thread, and it's such a very good thread, and I wouldn't want to derail it, KWIM? Poor Snape really does deserve one little thread all of his own... So, I dunno, maybe we should take our strong disagreement outside or something? :huh: And second, no one, believe me no one, is more passionate than me about LOTR. However much I enjoy HP, it does.not.hold.a.candle to LOTR. (Nor does Narnia, nor Philip Pullman; let alone Hunger Games or Divergent or any number of other series into which I have plunged, with enthusiasm, with my kids.) It is its own category. But the goals are different. Pullman and Lewis are doing allegory, so of course some characters are allegorical (and, therefore, one-dimensional) -- that is to be expected; it follows directly from the genre. Tolkein is, I think, doing something slightly different from them, but it's still, also, different from and greater than straight up storytelling... I would maybe call it, creating myth. Some British notable -- maybe Somerset Maugham?-- said in an interview that Tolkein didn't create Middle Earth, he just "discovered" it. I love that idea... Anyway. LOTR's great mythological struggle, its great divide between Good and Evil... these are just given, in Middle Earth. There's no effort to explain how Sauron became Sauron. The orcs are just orcs. There's an alluded-to, and presumably interesting, story of how Saruman went to the dark side, but by the time we meet him he's pretty straight up evil. (And unredeemable. What is interesting and so, so optimistic about HP is that just about everybody, right up until that scene at King's Cross -- !! -- still has a shot at salvation.) The elves are nearly as purely virtuous as their counterparts the orcs are purely bad. Yes, Legolas has his one brief moment of loss of confidence, but the context there is that he's worried about the hobbits... yes, Elrond is ambivalent about getting involved in this round, but the context is that he's worried about his obligations to his own people. They're not influenced by any kind of weakness or vice, they just have competing constituents. Even Aragorn is larger than life, in a -- dare I say it?? -- bordering-on-one-dimensional way. Yes, he struggles internally with doubt. But that's different from making, as a pp said above about Snape, "crappy choices." His choices are above reproach. There are plenty of other characters, mostly the ones closer to the hearts of men (where the mythological battle is really being waged), who are rife with complexity: Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, Frodo, Sam. And Gandalf, well, he's the most complex and varied wizard out there. But the ones representing the mythological backdrop are, IMO, pretty one dimensional. (Which, let me hasten to add, I don't mean as trash talk. Truly...) Sauron is explained in the Silmarillion, as are orcs and Saruman (Saruman is also in Unfinished Tales) Sauron didn't start out bad, he fell. Sauron would know all too well how to lead someone down the wrong path. I would recommend reading the Silmarillion, it is excellent. The elves are described as arrogant, they fight with Gimli, they also have cross words with Legolas. I don't think I can count the number of times that elves are described as a bit jerky, particularly when dwarves are involved. Legolas was crabby with Gimli up until Gimli was courteous to Galadriel. Dwarves HATE Legolas' dad and his dad once threw Gimli's dad into prison. So their bromance is not only unusual because of their race, but their families had been crabby with one another. Legolas might scream like a girl when he sees a Balrog but he is hundreds of years old when LotR takes place. He ought to be a wee bit dignified. I don't think that a character needs to make "crappy choices," Aragon was told he had to be King of Gondor and Arnor to marry Arwen. I don't know if one ought to consider it above approach that he had to be dragged into kingship least he not be allowed to keep seeing his girlfriend. :lol: Once all the fighting and battles were over Aragorn was prone to moping around. While his choices were above reproach, it doesn't change that he wanted to be Strider all along..he just couldn't be Strider once his destiny got its clutches in him. That doesn't make him one-dimensional to me. There is also the distinction that once it was said and done the HP characters got their happily ever after, but the LotR characters did not. Some went on to live tragic lives. Tolkien said that Arwen's was the saddest tale he had ever written. I agree with Snape having his own thread but I did want to dispute any claims of the Tolkien characters as one dimensional, there are many subtleties and there are extensive alternative materials that discuss things further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Then we'll have to wait for the translation, and hope for a good translator. Or you could just be the translator. :D :iagree: What Snape did was brave but that doesn't change the fact that he was a bitter, nasty man. He was not worthy of a namesake IMO, and certainly not one of Harry's kids. Still, I think Harry was right in saying he was the bravest man he ever knew. He knew members of the Order, but none who but none who put themselves in the kind of danger Snape did for so long. Also Harry had a soft spot for his mother, more even than for his father. I think Snape's feelings for Lily colored Harry's feelings for Snape once he found out. Just because I can agree that he was brave doesn't mean I like him. I still don't like him. Eh I just didn't care for the Epilogue. I don't know why she did it that way. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I can't find the interview now, but JK Rowling warned you girls not to fall for Snape! I think that was a losing battle once she described his voice. And THEN they had Alan Rickman play him! It was inevitable. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 There is also the distinction that once it was said and done the HP characters got their happily ever after, but the LotR characters did not. Some went on to live tragic lives. Tolkien said that Arwen was the saddest tale he had ever written. When Frodo says that the Shire was saved, but not for him, I cry every time. I think so many soldiers feel that way, and Tolkien *had* gone off to war and experienced that for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 When Frodo says that the Shire was saved, but not for him, I cry every time. I think so many soldiers feel that way, and Tolkien *had* gone off to war and experienced that for himself. That part makes me cry too. I don't think someone who hadn't been through war could have written that line. He did fight any accusations of allegory, but his experiences HAD to have very much influenced his work, even he admitted that the Dead Marshes may have risen from the Battle of the Somme. He would have known what it would be like to be crawling through the mud through a dark and foreboding landscape with enemies all around. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/5133000.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I <3 this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alisoncooks Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I <3 this topic. +1 :hurray: :hurray: :lurk5: :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 That part makes me cry too. I don't think someone who hadn't been through war could have written that line. He did fight any accusations of allegory, but his experiences HAD to have very much influenced his work, even he admitted that the Dead Marshes may have risen from the Battle of the Somme. He would have known what it would be like to be crawling through the mud through a dark and foreboding landscape with enemies all around. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/5133000.stm Ultimately, I guess I would argue that HP (as much as I love it, make no mistake) fails as a war story. It just isn't *enough* to succeed as a war story. It is a story of an adolescent who comes into his own and makes a great sacrifice for the greater good, but that is about as far as you can take it. Tolkien lived through war coming to England and England's sons dying for the cause. Rowling never experienced anything like that, and it shows. That is how I see things as an army wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadeOrchidSong Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 I think that was a losing battle once she described his voice. And THEN they had Alan Rickman play him! It was inevitable. :lol: Alan is too old. I would prefer a younger Snape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Alan is too old. I would prefer a younger Snape. He was too old to play Snape, I believe he was chosen for his voice. He is about fifteen years older than Gary Oldman and David Thewlis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venia Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I believe he was chosen for his voice. That voice. I believe that element alone cancels out all my qualms with him in that role. Thanks for the reminder, now I am off to find any and all audio books and other narrations by him. He could read the instructions to the US tax forms and make them sultry. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 That voice. I believe that element alone cancels out all my qualms with him in that role. Thanks for the reminder, now I am off to find any and all audio books and other narrations by him. He could read the instructions to the US tax forms and make them sultry. ;) Indeed. :svengo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venia Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Indeed. Touché ....now En garde :svengo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 *fans self* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (heart) this thread as well... and (heart, heart, heart) that voice. Oy! The question of who can go there and back again, and who is too damaged ever to be able truly to come home... is another one that my kids and I have spent hours comparing across heroes. HP's epilogue was a little cheesy, and I do wonder about George, but you can see why JKR put it in; all those nine year old fans needed resolution. LOTR's was much more emotionally real.... Poor Frodo. (I actually think Hunger Games handles that question well: Gale can't, even though his war was different from those who went into the arena; Peeta can; Katniss does but only barely, tentatively, and only because Peeta makes it possible...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadeOrchidSong Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 This thread is taking off now as Alan Rickman voice fan club. Haha.....:-) I just listened to tsites net and his Frenh singing. HP 2 movie is scheduled for tomorrow night here in my house. Want to come over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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