Family rant - hearing about BIL's hip replacement via facebook?

[bolt.]

It doesn't have to be "animosity" to be "an acquaintance level of relationship" -- acquaintance level relationships are more pleasant for everyone than the kind of upset that you are describing.

I really want you to feel better. I don't know how you can with your levels of empathy... It must be really hard. I feel for your FIL too, and I imagine myself in his shoes. But I always imagine that the scary-future-distant-child-as-adult is probably right, and that my distress would be around wishing I could rewind time and do things differently.

I don't imagine myself being distressed because I thought the 'child' was wrong, and she didn't have the right to be hurt. I've only had my kids a short set of years so far, and already they'd be we'll justified to never speak to me, if they only remember half if the ways I have accidentally mistreated them so far. I just can't imagine being elderly with the attitude of, "I did a perfectly fine job. I don't know what you are complaining about, get your bottom to my party and pretend your wounds aren't real -- that's what I'll be doing. There'll be cake!"

So I imagine your FIL's distress is much more likely to be over real offendes he wishes he could erase... Not so much over being (supposedly) mistreated by a judgemental and ungrateful child. Without a TARDIS, there's no solution to that. You just can't say (in the hypothetical-parent role), "Stop being wounded. It hurts my feelings to know that my history with you was painful on your side. It's pretty inconsiderate if you to carry on being hurt about it."

[dirty ethel rackham]

I don't imagine myself being distressed because I thought the 'child' was wrong, and she didn't have the right to be hurt. I've only had my kids a short set of years so far, and already they'd be we'll justified to never speak to me, if they only remember half if the ways I have accidentally mistreated them so far. I just can't imagine being elderly with the attitude of, "I did a perfectly fine job. I don't know what you are complaining about, get your bottom to my party and pretend your wounds aren't real -- that's what I'll be doing. There'll be cake!"

 

So I imagine your FIL's distress is much more likely to be over real offendes he wishes he could erase... Not so much over being (supposedly) mistreated by a judgemental and ungrateful child. Without a TARDIS, there's no solution to that. You just can't say (in the hypothetical-parent role), "Stop being wounded. It hurts my feelings to know that my history with you was painful on your side. It's pretty inconsiderate if you to carry on being hurt about it."

 

You are setting up a false dichotomy - either the parents believes they are perfect and made no mistakes or that they should be full of regret, on their knees begging for forgiveness.   There are lots of shades of gray in between.  In loving family relationships, forgiveness goes both ways.  Maturity involves forgiving one's parents for mistakes and recognizing that it is possible that one can love another person deeply and still hurt that person, intentionally or unintentionally.  Maturity is looking at the bigger picture, not choosing to focus all the attention on a few incidents of misunderstanding.  SIL is not giving FIL the opportunity to discuss anything - to ask forgiveness for mistakes made - to clarify intentions that may have been misunderstood - to point out when he did show her that he loved her by standing up for her.  She has not told him anything.  She simply cut him out of her life and has in turn, cut the rest of us out of her life.  Nowhere did I say that FIL has told her to "get over herself."  That is the conclusion dh and I are drawing from the information she has shared.  She is not looking at the big picture. 

 

I hope to heaven that my children will be able to come to a place of grace an understanding about all my failings.  I apologize when I have done something wrong.  I try to model grace in our family - acknowledging my mistakes, letting them know when their actions are hurtful, sympathizing when they are upset about something.  I am by no means perfect, but I certainly hope that they will be able to see me as a human being worth being in relationship with - not some idol on a pedestal who has come crashing down to reality, not some control freak with a big ego, but a flawed person who has tried to be a good parent, a good person.  If they choose not to be in a relationship with me (no matter whether it was my fault or theirs), I would still grieve it.  

 

In my late 20s and early 30s, I was in a place where my parents did everything wrong and I was going to do everything differently from them.  I am so grateful to my husband for pointing out that, despite my parents flaws, they were still here (living - not dead like his mother - flawed that she was,) still loving me in spite of MY OWN FLAWS.  He didn't minimize the hurt I felt, but help me put it in perspective. I am grateful that I was able to forgive them for being fallible human beings (and there was a lot to forgive) and come to understand that they had my best interests at heart  I am grateful that I was able to accept them for who they were and have decent relationships with them.  I am glad that both of them went to their graves knowing that I loved them and that I was happy to have had them in my lives. 

 

[Anne in CA]

I have followed this because I too have some extended family relationships that are not quite right and it is hard to know what I should have done, what I could have done, what could still be done. I think you really summed it up well. It is unfortunate when people end relationships without empathy, and don't seem to care about other people wondering if they really did something wrong, do they need to apologize, can things be ironed out with a good long honest talk. Enough time goes by that the hurt fades a little, but the questions are still there and they stir the emotional pot. Thank God for people who love me in spite of not being perfect. Not being perfect goes both ways. This does not seem to be a case where someone is heartlessly stirring up trouble, but just one where people cannot accept that in a broken world mistakes and misunderstanding happen. We all know people who are not mature enough to think that through, but it is surprising when someone like the OP's SIL is such a person. A person with a good career and good marriage and strong relationships is an unlikely candidate for the hurtful behavior of cutting off many loved ones so abruptly, and it causes painful questions. 

[catz]

Ultimately though, you can expend quite a bit of emotional energy worrying about someone else's actions. You can't control other people. You can only control yourself. I still suspect some mental illness aspect here - depression maybe? I would just let go of any expectation of change.

 

I have a sibling that I have just completely let go in terms of any meaningful relationship. We used to be very close. Now our relationship is superficial best. He has marital problems, kid problems, and has always been extremely self absorbed. I was hurt for years, but as with any sort of grieving process, you need to move on and away from it. I accept the relationship as is and I live my life. Holding anger does much more to hurt yourself than it does to change the attitude of SIL. If it's hurtful for you to see what she posts on facebook, turn her off or entirely unfriend her. Make it easier for you to be emotionally less involved.

[8circles]

The thing is, you could be totally right and your SIL is being g petty and immature. But you don't actual know. And it really isn't your business. Your relationship with SIL is apparently a casualty & it's normal to mourn that but it isn't really about you. And you don't know what happened or didn't happen. It seems odd that you would go from having such a close relationship with her to thinking such negative things about her.

 

You are setting up a false dichotomy - either the parents believes they are perfect and made no mistakes or that they should be full of regret, on their knees begging for forgiveness. There are lots of shades of gray in between. In loving family relationships, forgiveness goes both ways. Maturity involves forgiving one's parents for mistakes and recognizing that it is possible that one can love another person deeply and still hurt that person, intentionally or unintentionally. Maturity is looking at the bigger picture, not choosing to focus all the attention on a few incidents of misunderstanding. SIL is not giving FIL the opportunity to discuss anything - to ask forgiveness for mistakes made - to clarify intentions that may have been misunderstood - to point out when he did show her that he loved her by standing up for her. She has not told him anything. She simply cut him out of her life and has in turn, cut the rest of us out of her life. Nowhere did I say that FIL has told her to "get over herself." That is the conclusion dh and I are drawing from the information she has shared. She is not looking at the big picture.

 

I hope to heaven that my children will be able to come to a place of grace an understanding about all my failings. I apologize when I have done something wrong. I try to model grace in our family - acknowledging my mistakes, letting them know when their actions are hurtful, sympathizing when they are upset about something. I am by no means perfect, but I certainly hope that they will be able to see me as a human being worth being in relationship with - not some idol on a pedestal who has come crashing down to reality, not some control freak with a big ego, but a flawed person who has tried to be a good parent, a good person. If they choose not to be in a relationship with me (no matter whether it was my fault or theirs), I would still grieve it.

 

In my late 20s and early 30s, I was in a place where my parents did everything wrong and I was going to do everything differently from them. I am so grateful to my husband for pointing out that, despite my parents flaws, they were still here (living - not dead like his mother - flawed that she was,) still loving me in spite of MY OWN FLAWS. He didn't minimize the hurt I felt, but help me put it in perspective. I am grateful that I was able to forgive them for being fallible human beings (and there was a lot to forgive) and come to understand that they had my best interests at heart I am grateful that I was able to accept them for who they were and have decent relationships with them. I am glad that both of them went to their graves knowing that I loved them and that I was happy to have had them in my lives.

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

The thing is, you could be totally right and your SIL is being g petty and immature. But you don't actual know. And it really isn't your business. Your relationship with SIL is apparently a casualty & it's normal to mourn that but it isn't really about you. And you don't know what happened or didn't happen. It seems odd that you would go from having such a close relationship with her to thinking such negative things about her.

 

 

What's odd about it?  I didn't expect to go from having such a close relationship with her to being persona non grata.  I guess my indignation and hurt isn't just about me - it is about the many people I love who are being hurt, knowing that time is running out for her to reconcile with her father, and being pretty sure that she will completely disappear from our lives once FIL is not around.  If she is entitled to her opinion about how terrible her family is (and I get to see the contrast between hers and mine and hers comes out WAY on top as far as love and respect is concerned) then I get to have an opinion about whether or not her behavior is petty and immature. 

[Scarlett]

What's odd about it? I didn't expect to go from having such a close relationship with her to being persona non grata. I guess my indignation and hurt isn't just about me - it is about the many people I love who are being hurt, knowing that time is running out for her to reconcile with her father, and being pretty sure that she will completely disappear from our lives once FIL is not around. If she is entitled to her opinion about how terrible her family is (and I get to see the contrast between hers and mine and hers comes out WAY on top as far as love and respect is concerned) then I get to have an opinion about whether or not her behavior is petty and immature.

I just wanted to give you a virtual hug and let your know I totally relate to feeling upset not just for the way she is treating you but for the way she is treating those you love. I don't think that is odd and I do think all of this is your business. Can you change it? Probably not. Will you be better off to just quit reaching out to her and let her go? Probably so. But there is nothing intrusive or weird or odd about it being a very upsetting situation or about you thinking she is out of line.

[8circles]

Well, what's odd about it is that you don't seem willing to give her the benefit of the doubt after such a positive relationship. As far as being 'persona non grata' I think you are inserting yourself where you shouldnt. Her avoidance of you is most likely not about you. But it seems like it's probably been a good thing for her given your opinion of her. You are definitely free to have whatever opinion of her you want. But you might want to really realize that your opinion is based on practically no actual knowledge. You don't know what she is upset about. You don't know what she has tried to do about it. You don't know how other people have responded to her. Again, based on your attitude towards her in this thread, her avoidance seems justified. This is not how you should treat people that you love who have deep hurts. A little grace might be nice.

 

I am sorry that this is painful for you. I hope you are able to work through your grief as quickly and painlessly as possible.

 

What's odd about it? I didn't expect to go from having such a close relationship with her to being persona non grata. I guess my indignation and hurt isn't just about me - it is about the many people I love who are being hurt, knowing that time is running out for her to reconcile with her father, and being pretty sure that she will completely disappear from our lives once FIL is not around. If she is entitled to her opinion about how terrible her family is (and I get to see the contrast between hers and mine and hers comes out WAY on top as far as love and respect is concerned) then I get to have an opinion about whether or not her behavior is petty and immature.

[Scarlett]

Well, what's odd about it is that you don't seem willing to give her the benefit of the doubt after such a positive relationship. As far as being 'persona non grata' I think you are inserting yourself where you shouldnt. Her avoidance of you is most likely not about you. But it seems like it's probably been a good thing for her given your opinion of her. You are definitely free to have whatever opinion of her you want. But you might want to really realize that your opinion is based on practically no actual knowledge. You don't know what she is upset about. You don't know what she has tried to do about it. You don't know how other people have responded to her. Again, based on your attitude towards her in this thread, her avoidance seems justified. This is not how you should treat people that you love who have deep hurts. A little grace might be nice.

 

I am sorry that this is painful for you. I hope you are able to work through your grief as quickly and painlessly as possible.

 

 

 

Gobsmacked.  Over and over people are assigning blame to Ellen for the hurtful actions of a family member.  Ellen has the right to be upset about this.  And she has been in this family for a looong time and she most certainly DOES have actual knowledge.  Saying that Ellen's 'attitude toward her' in this thread makes the avoidance justified is just hurtful and circular reasoning.  Ellen has repeatedly said she has NOT said these things or any other things to her SIL because her SIL won't talk to her at all! 

 

Ellen I am sorry.

[8circles]

I haven't done all of what you are accusing me of. I stand by my post. I feel for Ellen as I know it isnt easy. I just see it from a different perspective.

 

SIL is upset about past hurts (I think we know that for sure?). Ellen is upset about it and thinks SIL should let it go - after all, Ellen also had past hurts and was able to let it go. Besides, Ellen doesn't even believe SIL has anything to feel hurt about. I think I've got that right. Ellen has a right to feel however she feels. Just like SIL.

Gobsmacked. Over and over people are assigning blame to Ellen for the hurtful actions of a family member. Ellen has the right to be upset about this. And she has been in this family for a looong time and she most certainly DOES have actual knowledge. Saying that Ellen's 'attitude toward her' in this thread makes the avoidance justified is just hurtful and circular reasoning. Ellen has repeatedly said she has NOT said these things or any other things to her SIL because her SIL won't talk to her at all!

 

Ellen I am sorry.

[Scarlett]

I haven't done all of what you are accusing me of. I stand by my post. I feel for Ellen as I know it isnt easy. I just see it from a different perspective.

 

SIL is upset about past hurts (I think we know that for sure?). Ellen is upset about it and thinks SIL should let it go - after all, Ellen also had past hurts and was able to let it go. Besides, Ellen doesn't even believe SIL has anything to feel hurt about. I think I've got that right. Ellen has a right to feel however she feels. Just like SIL.

 

 

I am sorry if it seemed I was picking on you.  No you havent been alone in blaming Ellen  but you did say

 

 Again, based on your attitude towards her in this thread, her avoidance seems justified. This is not how you should treat people that you love who have deep hurts. A little grace might be nice.

 

 

 

 

Which seems to be clearly blaming Ellen for her SILs behavior. 

[8circles]

I may not have been clear. I think SIL expected Ellen to not support her. Ellen doesn't support her. SIL was right. I don't know that Ellen gave SIL any explicit reason to suspect that Ellen wouldn't support her . I realize that I don't know. But I think its a definite possibility and more likely than SIL being mentally ill or just becoming petty and immature as an adult.

I am sorry if it seemed I was picking on you. No you havent been alone in blaming Ellen but you did say

 

 

Which seems to be clearly blaming Ellen for her SILs behavior.

[Carol in Cal.]

Ellen, I am sorry that you have lost your formerly very close friendship with SIL.

I am surprised by the 'dropping' and I wonder whether there was some kind of trigger-event that set up this downhill slide.

 

Thinking about this woman's life from my perspective, I am about her same age.  When I studied chemical engineering, I had classes where I was one of only two women in a class of 40 students.  Honestly, I didn't find this all that difficult, but if anyone had suggested that I should not do this because I was female I'm not completely sure that I would ever have gotten past it.  It would have felt major, like racism.  If it had been my mother, wow.  I am not sure I would ever have really gotten past that.  I needed that mindset to do it--it was pretty unusual then.

 

If her mother was pushing her to be a SAHM, the fact that she didn't have children AND worked in a science career would be literally as opposite as possible.  If your own mother looks down on you and is dismissive of all of your life choices, and if, as is true in many families, she is the focal point through which most information and planning flows, it might start to feel impossible to escape this relentless disapproval without distancing yourself from even family members that are peripheral.  This is Your Mother, and if she rejects you you must be worthless.  Does her mother love her?  I mean, is she warm and loving to her?  Not, does she tolerate her.  I can easily imagine them feeling like each profoundly disapproves of and looks down on the other, and having a hard time being nearby.

 

I don't defend her behavior, but I think in the context of the anger and finality associated with menopause I can understand it.

 

One additional thing that came to mind is that the decision not to have children may not have been completely voluntary, and looking back she may regret it but be unable to talk about it.  That is a rough thing to go through.

 

I wish that she would cut FIL some slack, and be kinder to you and your family.  I'm sorry you are going through this.

 

I think that it's hard to understand how devastating lack of warmth and approval can be--it doesn't sound as major as abuse, and in many ways it is not, but having seen households where the mom never really warmed up to just one of the kids compared to the rest, that is a soul-sucking fundamental loss that is so foundational that it is extremely hard to move beyond.

 

 

[Scarlett]

Ellen, I am sorry that you have lost your formerly very close friendship with SIL.

I am surprised by the 'dropping' and I wonder whether there was some kind of trigger-event that set up this downhill slide.

 

Thinking about this woman's life from my perspective, I am about her same age.  When I studied chemical engineering, I had classes where I was one of only two women in a class of 40 students.  Honestly, I didn't find this all that difficult, but if anyone had suggested that I should not do this because I was female I'm not completely sure that I would ever have gotten past it.  It would have felt major, like racism.  If it had been my mother, wow.  I am not sure I would ever have really gotten past that.  I needed that mindset to do it--it was pretty unusual then.

 

If her mother was pushing her to be a SAHM, the fact that she didn't have children AND worked in a science career would be literally as opposite as possible.  If your own mother looks down on you and is dismissive of all of your life choices, and if, as is true in many families, she is the focal point through which most information and planning flows, it might start to feel impossible to escape this relentless disapproval without distancing yourself from even family members that are peripheral.  This is Your Mother, and if she rejects you you must be worthless.  Does her mother love her?  I mean, is she warm and loving to her?  Not, does she tolerate her.  I can easily imagine them feeling like each profoundly disapproves of and looks down on the other, and having a hard time being nearby.

 

I don't defend her behavior, but I think in the context of the anger and finality associated with menopause I can understand it.

 

One additional thing that came to mind is that the decision not to have children may not have been completely voluntary, and looking back she may regret it but be unable to talk about it.  That is a rough thing to go through.

 

I wish that she would cut FIL some slack, and be kinder to you and your family.  I'm sorry you are going through this.

 

I think that it's hard to understand how devastating lack of warmth and approval can be--it doesn't sound as major as abuse, and in many ways it is not, but having seen households where the mom never really warmed up to just one of the kids compared to the rest, that is a soul-sucking fundamental loss that is so foundational that it is extremely hard to move beyond.

 

My understanding is that the mother died when the SIL and her brothers were all still quite young....before SIL went to college?  And that the brothers and father supported and encouraged her to do what she wanted career wise. 

[bolt.]

Forgiving is an act of grace and therefore is never to be expected. Sober judgement is normal. Forgiveness is a surprise.

 

You sound like you consider grace an obligation.

 

If grace is obligatory, how then could it be considered "unmerited favour"?

 

It's also possible to forgive people, and STILL prefer not to be in a close warm relationship with them. It's not a personal flaw to be on casual terms with your parents. It's not a sin to avoid contact with them if its painful... It doesn't need to be "legitimately painful in the eyes of sober judgement" -- it just needs to be "actually" painful, in the real sense, that pain is felt.

 

I can see that you would like to spend another few weeks/months/years dwelling and processing. I can't really see the point, but you know yourself better than I do.

 

Your path through childhood pain to adult peace was fine. So is hers. These things are very personal. When you want to begin to let it go, I suggest you start by recognizing that sense of individuality, choices and paths.

 

Many people who have been hurt by others don't think that 'the other party' is owed the effort of a long honest talk, or an attempt to iron things out. That's a lot of work, and its often fruitless, and it's not a goal that everyone holds. It's perfectly "mature" to assume that the other party can 'do just fine without me' -- and that if they want to wonder, they are free to, and when they want to stop, they can do that too.

 

She probably is already perfectly reconciled and fine with her relationship with her father -- and I would predict (like you) that she will welcome even more distant relations with the rest of you after he passes. (You might be able to do something about that, but I suspect you wouldn't take to it easily, and there might not be time... So I won't worry about it.) on the other hand, if you intend to stick to your guns about her as "petty an immature" you will probably be pleased to not need to bother with a relationship after that point anyways. That sounds like the saddest win-win scenario ever... But I can't figure out another answer.

 

Woman 1 is so hurt that she has distanced herself from all extended family.

 

Woman 2 considers that action unjustified, petty and immature.

 

Woman 1 does not want a relationship with woman 2, she just wants to have a normal life with the people she does want relationships with.

 

Woman 2 does not like or respect woman 1, she just wants woman 1 to modify her life to stop upsetting people that woman 2 cares about.

[dirty ethel rackham]

bowing out here.  Nothing more to be said.

[mommaduck]

:grouphug: Ellen

[Lawana]

Ellen,

In your time of pain, my thoughts and prayers are with you. 

[sunflowerlady]

I'm sorry. I know it is difficult but you will hurt less as time goes on, I am sure. Enjoy the people who DO love you and want you in their lives.