Violin for a little one

[Rush]

I am considering to send my little one for violin lessons, but before that I want to figure out if it's manageable as my son does already lots of activities and loves them all.

Basically what i'd like to hear is: how many lessons per week we should take and how long they are usually for 4 years old? how often and for how long he should practice at home? 

Many thanks

[IsabelC]

Most kids here seem to have a lesson once a week, and usually for a little child like your son that would only be a half hour lesson, sometimes even shorter.

 

Practice timing depends a lot on how keen he is and how much you are comfortable pushing him, as well as how quickly he "gets" things. Most 4yos don't have that long a concentration span, so if you are planning on anything more than about 20 minutes per day, you might want to split it into morning practice and afternoon practice. It is nice to get into a habit of daily practice if you can, though, that way the habit is well established by the time the novelty wears off. If he's not in the mood or you don't have time, just a few minutes of practice on one little piece or technique maintains that habit.

 

With my 5yo, I also spend a little bit of time each day (5-10 minutes) doing music theory. I figured why waste expensive violin teacher time on theory when I'm perfectly capable of teaching it myself. However if you choose Suzuki method, he won't need to read music right away.

 

I'd suggest speaking to the teacher(s) you would be using about what kind of commitment is expected. 

 

 

(Disclaimer: I have only been a violin mom for about a month. Hopefully some experienced people will have better specific advice for you.)

[NASDAQ]

We do Suzuki strings. It starts with a prep class, then at about six months in they start private lessons. They keep the group class so that's two weekly for the string instrument.

 

The bigger burden is that at four you are going to need to be with him for the classes and _do his daily practice_. And you aren't going to want the younger one there during his private lesson. I bring the little ones to sit at the back of the group lessons, but I can't be there taking notes and really paying attention to the private ones with little kids running around.

 

Not everyone requires a group lesson and a private lesson. But everyone requires daily practice. And I wouldn't send my child to string lessons at that age unless I could sit in, because I don't think they're old enough to absorb and practice the skills.

[Angie in VA]

Great advice here. If you go with Suzuki lessons don't forget to allow time to listen to the cd every day. Imitation is a huge part of Suzuki.

My dc's violin teacher has this rule about practicing (among others): only practice on the days you eat.

Lastly, a good teacher will spend oodles of time on getting your child's bow hold right. It is worth that investment of time, but if your dc wants to hurry up and play, it might be a little frustrating.

[Uff Da!]

nm

[petuniagoose]

Hi,

I consider myself a violin mom, as my 2 kids play a violin and 1 cello.

If you can afford, I would recommend 2-3 lessons a week and hired a student to practice with your son. If that is not the option - lessons once a week, but have someone to help with the practice. Now, my oldest son helps, but I found it very hard to keep with the boys when they started. I do not recommend only group lesson as you need a GOOD technique to be developed from early on. Suzuki is fine as it develops the ear, one of my children who started Suzuki had a very big problem later on with reading notes. He was always playing from the ear and it took him forever to learn notes. Everyday practice would be required - a few min (10-15) every day at the beginning.

Anyhow, good luck to you!

[bakpak]

I'm a new mom for a violin-playing DD4. How long did it take for your 4-yr-old to learn their first Twinkle variation? I'm just curious. I'm teaching her piano as well, and it's so easy in comparison! :)

[KSinNS]

Sorry, this is long. I get toooooo excited about violin!

 

Absolutely, you can do violin with a four year old. Suzuki is a great method for a preschooler (some can do well with a more traditional approach with lots of support). I started 2 of mine at 3 and one at 2 (my oldest started at 5). However, you need a really great suzuki teacher who is comfortable working with very small kids (they aren't all). You need someone who will focus on great technique, who has a plan for incorporating the reading/theory skills (there are lots of ways to do this but they do need a plan), and who can teach you how to work with your kid. Get recommendations, talk to parents and teachers, observe lessons, and go to concerts to hear how the students progress. Get a sense from the parents of how intense the program is, because some are extremely intense and some are more relaxed. Violinist.com has a section (maybe under the FAQs) on finding a teacher, and also a good discussion of suzuki vs. non-suzuki. Their conclusion is it really comes down to a great teacher, and I completely agree. 

 

For preschoolers and little 5s, lesson times will vary by kid and teachers. My kids have lessons once/week. My oldest started with 30 minutes, and dropped to 15 (different teacher). My second started with 12 (our teacher's standard) and dropped to 8 minutes until she was five (we filled the rest of the time with music games and clapping). The third and fourth quickly built up to 20 minutes. Our teacher is unusual to have lessons that short, but she's great with little and high needs kids (the oldest now has a 45-1hr lesson and the second is now comfortably at 30 mins). I do take everyone to every lesson (no other choice), but our teacher can cope with that. They can't all, and most of my friends don't, so do think about childcare. We also do group lessons once/month. These are critical to most suzuki programs and are opportunities for kids to develop in a musical community, learn to cooperate, perform together, and be inspired by the older kids. Our Suzuki saturdays are long and exhausting, but the kids learn more than you can imagine. 

 

You do need to practice daily on any instrument. How long that takes depends on the kid, but realistically 15-30 minutes (it can take a little about 30 minutes to do 10 minutes of work too, so I budget about 30 minutes my time per little and 45-1hr for the olders.) For anyone under 7-8 and older with a suzuki teacher, they will need your attention for most of the time. You can hire a practice buddy, but part of the suzuki philosophy, is that music is a tool for developing the heart of the child, and part of that is the time building the relationship between parent and child through the ups and downs of practice. Some teachers are very big on this, some probably less so. In our program, many of the most active parents are suzuki dads as the primary home teacher and support. And it really for most families becomes a whole family thing. If you hire a practice buddy, to get the most out of the lessons, they will need to come to lessons and groups to get instructions on what to practice. 

 

And bakpak, Twinkle takes FOREVER!!!!!!! And it tends to come together all at once. Most 4s in the programs I've been in take nearly a year to get all the variations, and theme, my 3 year old is now twinkle confident after 18 months. This is the hardest song your child will ever learn. Twinkle has 42 teaching points, so it really takes that long. Most people are ready to quit mid Feb (I was), but the kids will break through, so expect a few more months of frustration. Lightly Row is a little quicker (our teacher budgets 10 lessons for that) and littles will take a while to put it together, and then over the next few songs they start to pick up speed. My 3 year old now plays Twinkle, Lightly Row, Song of the Wind, and a beginner fiddle set. She's also started Go Tell Aunt Rhody. This is the point the kids start enjoying it, when they start learning lots of songs, and move up the groups. Deep breaths and practice games. It will come!

[Sarah CB]

I'm a new mom for a violin-playing DD4. How long did it take for your 4-yr-old to learn their first Twinkle variation? I'm just curious. I'm teaching her piano as well, and it's so easy in comparison! :)

 

My dh calls Twinkle the most expensive song you'll ever hear.  It takes for-e-ver.  There are so many other skills that are being learned at the same time and it's never a good idea to rush anything in violin.  You'll be sorry later.  Posture, feet, bow hold, and violin hand are all so important and take a lot of attention to get right.  

[Camelfeet]

Mine started cello at 5 years old (march 2013) and it took until now for her to play twinkle twinkle because of all the bow work and basic stuff they covered before playing.  She likes the lessons, but compared to how fast they progress through piano it can be frustrating for a child that thrives on seeing results.

[bakpak]

Thanks. I think she'll be working through the whole first variation by her 4th or 5th lesson, but the high variability in being able to make a pretty sound is tough for her. She already wants to practice the 2nd variation! It's good for her to see that practice really pays off though, because she learns piano pieces during the lesson in comparison.

 

FYI OP, we have a 30 min private lesson once a week. Our teacher is not Suzuki, but they'll be playing all the pieces from the 1st Suzuki book. Practice at home has been a bit of a challenge. But we're doing 10 min a day x 5 days. I was setting the timer, but I think I'm getting more than 10 min from her by just using my watch (or rather a real 10 min since she's wiggly and goofing off sometimes). The plan is to move up to 15 min next week. Practice is going much smoother this week after I made a sticker chart with a labeled "20 practices = a rainbow loom" at the bottom. She loves reading that line every day and adding a sticker. I've never done this type of incentive before, but I must say it's working great!

[Donna]

Thanks. I think she'll be working through the whole first variation by her 4th or 5th lesson, but the high variability in being able to make a pretty sound is tough for her. She already wants to practice the 2nd variation! It's good for her to see that practice really pays off though, because she learns piano pieces during the lesson in comparison.

 

KSinNS explained the Suzuki method really well in her post. The reason Twinkles take so long with the Suzuki method is they learn each skill through games and little songs all leading up to Twinkle so by the time they are actually playing Twinkle, they have the skill set to make it easy for them to do it well. My dd's first teacher had a chart one her wall with a "Twinkle mountain" drawn and each little skill the child needed to accomplish to get to the top and play Twinkle. My dd loved to see where she was on that chart each week. My dd learned Twinkle quickly but she practiced really well and a lot...so by the time she played the theme it was very solid and the variations were already in her head from listening so they came very quickly to her fingers.

 

When my dd started Suzuki lessons at 3yo, she had a 30 min. private lesson and a 1 hour group class each week. I booked both on the same day to same travel time and gas money. When she moved to a private home-based teacher a year later, her lesson time increased to 45 min then a few months after that to an hour. She only had group classes a couple years with the private teacher, depending on when she had kids with similar skills at similar ages. There was also listening involved. I played the CD at home while we did other things or listening specifically to it and in the car whenever we went somewhere. 

 

At home we left the violin out where dd could reach it and practiced when she brought it to me. She was very enthusiastic with practice so we practiced together about 3-4X a day for 5-15 min at a time. As she got older with a longer attention span and more material to cover, practice time per session increased. 

[bakpak]

I have a follow-up question about violin and my 4.5 yr-old. We're using the Suzuki book 1, but the teacher is not Suzuki trained, and my DD is the youngest student she's ever had. When does sight-reading typically start with the Suzuki method - as soon as they're capable? My DD reads extremely well and she's just starting to read staff music with piano that I teach her at home. My teacher asked me if I wanted her to start reading the Suzuki violin book, and seemed like she'd defer to my opinion. I honestly don't know what to recommend. DD will start Lightly Row in the next lesson. The teacher is not waiting for perfection on all of the Twinkles before moving on, but recognizes that my DD has improved tremendously over her 8 lessons and is absorbing the teachings into her playing. Her teacher has taught her to recognize half, quarter, 8th, 16th, and triplet notes already.

[Uff Da!]

If she wants to use the music, I think it's OK. My daughter note reads and refers to the music as needed. She memorizes each piece before going on to the next.

ETA: You may need to make an enlarged copy of the music for her. It can be hard for young eyes to read small music print.

[beishan]

We are in Suzuki book 2 and have not yet started note reading. His teacher started to introduce different notes (1/4, 1/2, 1/16 etc) at the end of book 1. My son learns violin directly without any basic music experience so it took him a while to get used to bowing different length of notes. His teacher wants to start him on note reading when we started book 2 but still have not yet had time to do so. I will have to remind him again next time.

[Doodlebug]

I'm a violin instructor. I've been playing for 30 years, teaching for 15, and have undergrad and grad degrees in music.

Four is very young.

I was begging for violin at 4, so I know it happens! And in that case, I absolutely agree with looking into lessons. But in most cases, parents of 4-5 year olds are looking for an enriching activity their child can begin. I suggest piano. It's a developmentally appropriate musical activity in which children start reading music from the beginning, and the successes come steadily enough to keep morale high.

Violin requires a great deal of physical stamina and coordination, in addition to the new challenge of reading music. Developmentally, if your four year old struggles with holding a pencil, consider that a bow hold will be at least as challenging. It isn't impossible, but consider maintaining a proper bow hold, violin hold, and open left hand position all at once while moving hands in different ways. My experience has been that most four year olds can do a number of these things, even together! But in most cases, a four year old is developmentally limited in what they can hope to achieve on the violin, and this transfers to hard earned slow successes -- loving the instrument fades.

Suzuki does break violin down into manageable chunks. Students listen and memorize pieces so they are free to focus on the technique of playing. It gets results! But note reading generally suffers. It isn't insurmountable, but...

In the typical "enrichment" situation with really young students, I suggest parents wait on violin until age 7, and start piano first. Not because it isn't possible to do violin, but because I can do in 4 months with a seven year old what it will take a year to do with a four year old, AND they will be reading music. Even better, wait until your nine year old is pleading for violin lessons, and then give them. This was the case with a set of violin playing sisters I taught for 5 years... They were ready and eager. They've got concerto competitions under their belts now, and they did it in a relatively short period of time (8 years).

Just my $.02. But again, if your daughter is already at the eager and ready place at four, go for it.

Stella

[IsabelC]

That's an interesting perspective, Stella. 

Our violin teacher actually thinks that all kids who are going to do music should start with violin first, because it trains the ear better when the notes aren't automatically in tune as the piano notes (hopefully) are. I'm not sure what I think about this idea. From my observation, some kids just naturally have a better ear for pitch than others. (Although probably hard work is ultimately going to be more important than natural ability. I was watching a vid of Akim Camara when he was 3, playing some concerto or other, and he actually had stickers on his fingerboard - which seems to suggest that him being such an incredible prodigy was more to do with having an excellent memory and many hours of practice, as opposed to having a superior inborn 'musical ear'.) 

 

 

My daughter was extremely reluctant when I tried starting her on piano at age four, but now at age five, she will walk over to the piano and pick out all her violin pieces by ear. I'm thinking of trying piano again, but I'd like to wait until she has a year of violin under her belt first.

[musicianmom]

Trained Suzuki teacher here. Exposure to note-reading is fine as a separate activity from playing the violin. Trying to read music while playing will focus the child's mind on reading music instead of proper playing technique. Muscle memory needs to be developed first.

[momma2three]

We just started my 5yo on cello.  He's doing Suzuki.  Lessons are 30min, once a week.  Suzuki usually requires a group lesson, but since he's starting in the middle of the year, and it happens that everyone in the group lesson he'd be in is much older and moving much faster, we're not doing the group lessons yet.

 

They should practice every day.  The Suzuki chair at the school we go to says practice time should be 3x the age of the child.  So a 4yo should practice for 12 minutes a day, and a 5yo for 15 minutes a day.  So far, I've found that about right.  As they get older, they're supposed to practice for as long as their lesson is, but that's a lot for a younger kid, and with Suzuki you want them fresh and enthusiastic, with appropriate posture.

 

Anyway, I'm mainly responding to sub, because I enjoyed reading this thread.  My older daughter is taking traditional piano lessons, and it's all very different.  But I'm enthusiastic about Suzuki right now, and think that it will be good for him.  Oh, and technically in Suzuki they don't learn note reading for ages and ages, but it's really up to the teacher... some teachers introduce it much earlier than they're "supposed to."

[IsabelC]

Trained Suzuki teacher here. Exposure to note-reading is fine as a separate activity from playing the violin. Trying to read music while playing will focus the child's mind on reading music instead of proper playing technique. Muscle memory needs to be developed first.

 

We're doing that even though we aren't using the Suzuki method. Dd plays by ear but we work on her theory book and note flashcards separately.

[Mandy in TN]

Hey, just to play devil's advocate, I will go in another direction. You could just get a little one a violin, and let him practice whenever he wants for as long as he wants or not at all if he isn't interested. Go once a week or so to a fun fiddle player that is good with kids and let him hang out for 20-30 minutes playing knee to knee. Of course, perhaps this is a better plan for someone who just wants their little person exposed to music rather than someone who whose little person is a natural with a love of music or for someone who wants to push their child toward more formal and/ or classical instruction, but it is another option. ;)
HTH-
Mandy

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

My 7yo just started violin 2 weeks ago... this has been a helpful thread, thanks! 

 

 

[momma2three]

Hey, just to play devil's advocate, I will go in another direction. You could just get a little one a violin, and let him practice whenever he wants for as long as he wants or not at all if he isn't interested. Go once a week or so to a fun fiddle player that is good with kids and let him hang out for 20-30 minutes playing knee to knee. Of course, perhaps this is a better plan for someone who just wants their little person exposed to music rather than someone who whose little person is a natural with a love of music or for someone who wants to push their child toward more formal and/ or classical instruction, but it is another option. ;)
HTH-
Mandy

 

I dunno, I think that there are MUCH cheaper ways to introduce music.  Even the friendly neighborhood fiddle teacher (and I don't know how realistic finding such a person actually is?  I wouldn't know where to look) is going to charge between $20 and $60 for a 1/2 hour lesson (I think this mostly depends on area...), and renting the instrument is less than I expected (thankfully) but still a real cost.

 

I can't think of anything else that is like music in that, assuming a baseline of decent instruction, lots of practice is the most important thing to be successful.  Obviously, practice will improve your ability at pretty much anything, from art to algebra, but music really, really, really requires lots of practice to get anywhere.  And after an initial honeymoon period based mostly on the excitement of having a shiny new toy, it doesn't really get fun until you've reached a certain level of ability.  But you can't reach the level of ability without enough practice.  So that's where parents and teachers have to step in to make a practice schedule (daily preferably, but realistically at least every other day) reasonable, workable, and fun.  

 

I'm not big on rewarding my kids for every little accomplishment, but we have a sticker chart for my older daughter's piano practice.  Tonight is actually her 50th day in a row practicing, so DH is taking her out to dinner at a restaurant of her choice (she chose Friendly's).  After 75 days I'm taking her to a concert, and after 100 days, when the chart ends, she gets a doll bed for her AG dolls.  It has TOTALLY worked.  She hasn't complained about practicing since about day 8, and even she, at 6 years old, can see how quickly she's been improving with the constant practice.  A short period where practice was this huge battle is what made me start the chart, and I can't even describe what a smashing success it's been... to her attitude about practicing, and her ability to play the piano.

 

Basically, I think that getting lessons, even informal ones, and then not requiring any practice is basically setting the kid up for failure and disappointment... he won't improve, and will get frustrated, and eventually will just decide that he's not talented and give up.  IMO an instrument is pretty much unique in that if you're going to go for it, you have to go for the whole hog.    

[Aloha2U]

Regardless of whether you decide to go with traditional lessons or Suzuki lessons, make sure you get the right size violin for the student. It may seem an obvious detail, but coming from one whose little man has experienced a bad (traditional) fiddle/violin instructor and a great Suzuki violin instructor, don't let anyone tell you that 1/8 sized is too small for your little one.

[musicianmom]

Regardless of whether you decide to go with traditional lessons or Suzuki lessons, make sure you get the right size violin for the student. It may seem an obvious detail, but coming from one whose little man has experienced a bad (traditional) fiddle/violin instructor and a great Suzuki violin instructor, don't let anyone tell you that 1/8 sized is too small for your little one.

Oh heavens yes! I just got a transfer student who came in lugging a violin nearly as big as he was. They make 1/16 and 1/32 for a reason!

[momma2three]

DS has a 1/10th size cello, and it's the cutest thing ever.  It's basically the size of a regular violin, only slightly thicker.  It's adorable.

 

I'm just throwing this out there, but we went with cello because another teacher that I know joked that "big, heavy instruments are better for fidgety little boys."  Don't know how legitimate a "truth" that is, and I have no idea what your son is like, but that's definitely my son to a T and I think there's some validity to the theory.  It kinda literally keeps him grounded.

[bakpak]

Thanks for the replies about reading music for my 4.5 yr old. If you draw the notes in the correct rhythm she can tell you which of the Twinkle variations it is, but we haven't done any sight reading. I think I'm going to suggest we stick with that method (doing the theory separate) for now. She's getting exposed to sight reading music much more slowly with piano (Music for Little Mozarts), which I think it plenty given her age. She is generally a fast learner, but there's no point pushing it. I may revise my opinion in 6-12 months, but for now, I think just focusing on all the important parts of playing the violin are enough. She'll probably still be working on Book 1 in 12 months. Special thanks to MusicianMom!

 

As to my DD's interest in violin, she had a few true Suzuki lessons at 2.5 on violin and loved it. Then we didn't have access to a violin teacher for 1.5 year, and DD brought it up constantly that she wanted violin lessons again. I finally found a cool Suzuki cello teacher who was great with little kids and we did a trial class with her and although my daughter had a blast she was insistent that she wanted to learn violin instead. Soooo, finally a new teacher moved into town and she is doing well with my DD. As I said, my DD is the youngest student she's ever had, but the teacher has been impressed with how quickly she's moving along and how much she's improved so that's nice to hear.

 

I think, like with all ages, if the interest comes from the student, the student is much more likely to do well! We're a pretty musical family, so her exposure to lots of music and lots of instruments have likely paved the way. Since the age of 2 when I gave her access to the CD player, she will often choose to listen to hours of classical music a day, which I would never have anticipated! Haha, I only heard classical music as a little kid during nap time, and although I learned classical piano, any classical music concerts make me want to fall asleep still today!

 

ETA: Also, FYI to other parents, DD has taken almost 3 months total to learn 5 twinkle variations, so I think there's lots of variation between children. She practices 15-20 min 5 times a week + 30 min lesson. Granted they're not absolutely gorgeous, but the rhythms are all correct and her technique in general is good. I've read that some Suzuki teachers make sure everything is perfect before moving on, but DD's non-Suzuki teacher is not like that. We're making great strides, and we'll keep fine-tuning the twinkles as we go. Her endurance isn't great, so she has to relax after each variation, but she'll get there. My mouth dropped open at her lesson this week, as she NEVER played so well at home! She just whipped em out like it was old hat. Hmmm....astonishing how things are different with an outside teacher!

[Mandy in TN]

Although I was playing devil's advocate, what I said was pretty close to our actual experience. We had a 1/8 size violin in the house that ds sometimes took enough interest in to actually play, and we went to a fiddle player sporadically who taught him to play Twinkle and a couple of fiddle songs. I have never forced him to play, and we didn't begin lessons in earnest until he was nearly seven and he was eight or so before he began practicing with any regularity.

He is now 11yo. He is not a child prodigy; he is not a gifted violinist. He is unlikely that he will ever earn a living playing violin. OTOH, he never grew to hate violin. He practices now more than ever. This is his second year with our county's junior orchestra. He also plays fiddle music. Not only does he enjoy violin, but about 1.5 years ago he decided that he also wanted to play mandolin. About the same time that he began mandolin, he started music theory.

I have known and heard of gifted musicians who as very young children wanted to play their instrument all the time, but that is different than a child being forced to play. Of course, if forcing a child practice is part of habit training or part of the way you live as a family and it works for you, then do whatever works. My ds just playing for fun. It isn't something about which I or my son have any grand plans. There is no rush to get to a certain level. I don't envision him studying music in college. Right now a violin or mandolin is just interesting to hold and noodle on, but some days it is more interesting to play all afternoon at the park. We just are not at a level of skill or desire that even now compels me to force or bribe him to practice.

Then again, I am not a musician, and, I really don't see my son earning a living as a musician. Although he enjoys it right now, he just isn't overly passionate about it.
Do whatever works. <shrug>
Mandy

[bakpak]

Yes, everyone views music very differently. Mandy, I think you and your son have a very healthy attitude towards it! I'm glad he's able to enjoy such fun instruments! You have to strike that right balance for you and your family and I'm glad you shared your own experience.

[musicianmom]

There is a lot of variation in how long Twinkles will take. I tell the parents that Twinkles form the base of the pyramid, and we have to make sure that base is solid. I'm not looking for perfect Twinkles before moving on, but I expect them to be in tune with good bow hold and straight bowings.

I love teaching little ones. Most of my Suzuki students are older, but it's easier to teach a 3yo how to hold the bow than a 13yo, believe it or not!

[lewelma]

For future reference, ABRSM is an excellent curriculum that encourages development in a broad range of musical skills: ear work, sight reading, scales, performance with an accompanist, and theory.  We started working on the curriculum at age 9 and it was well worth the time!

 

Just google ABRSM

 

Ruth in NZ

[Donna]

Hey, just to play devil's advocate, I will go in another direction. You could just get a little one a violin, and let him practice whenever he wants for as long as he wants or not at all if he isn't interested. Go once a week or so to a fun fiddle player that is good with kids and let him hang out for 20-30 minutes playing knee to knee. Of course, perhaps this is a better plan for someone who just wants their little person exposed to music rather than someone who whose little person is a natural with a love of music or for someone who wants to push their child toward more formal and/ or classical instruction, but it is another option.

 

This direction sounds lovely but unless you actually have a local fiddle player with good technique themselves and an ability to teach that technique, it is a very limiting option. Even if fiddle music is the way the child decides to go, proper technique will take them much further than poor technique and poor technique, once learned is difficult to undo. A solid foundation will allow the child to go in any direction.

 

I found a fiddle teacher for my dd when she showed an interest in fiddle music but it was in addition to her Suzuki lessons. If she had learned only from that fiddle teacher, she'd be limited to playing only those tunes with a difficulty and skill level that teacher's technique allowed so all those tunes she now loves to play, with shifting or in "strange" keys or with difficult bowing patterns, might not be accessible to her. Also, she'd not have the skill to later decide to go to classical or jazz music if her interests changed.

 

I did a blog post about some of what I have learned about music and kids almost a year ago for a blog link up (just ignore the "gifted" part of the title because I think much of it applies to a larger audience). 

[momma2three]

That was a great blog post, Donna!  I enjoyed reading it.  

 

My kids are still young, so I have no idea where their talents will take them, but I'm very happy that they all love music and are interested in learning an instrument (even the little one wants to, but I don't have the time, energy, or money for that right now!).  I think you make some great points, particularly about praise, and about "whose goals are you working towards anyway?"

[alef]

For future reference, ABRSM is an excellent curriculum that encourages development in a broad range of musical skills: ear work, sight reading, scales, performance with an accompanist, and theory. We started working on the curriculum at age 9 and it was well worth the time!

Just google ABRSM

Ruth in NZ

Is this the kind of program that works best with a teacher who is trained and familiar with it? I checked the ABRSM website for the US but there doesn't seem to be anything in my state--no exams offered or local contact.

[alef]

This direction sounds lovely but unless you actually have a local fiddle player with good technique themselves and an ability to teach that technique, it is a very limiting option. Even if fiddle music is the way the child decides to go, proper technique will take them much further than poor technique and poor technique, once learned is difficult to undo. A solid foundation will allow the child to go in any direction.

I found a fiddle teacher for my dd when she showed an interest in fiddle music but it was in addition to her Suzuki lessons. If she had learned only from that fiddle teacher, she'd be limited to playing only those tunes with a difficulty and skill level that teacher's technique allowed so all those tunes she now loves to play, with shifting or in "strange" keys or with difficult bowing patterns, might not be accessible to her. Also, she'd not have the skill to later decide to go to classical or jazz music if her interests changed.

I did a blog post about some of what I have learned about music and kids almost a year ago for a blog link up (just ignore the "gifted" part of the title because I think much of it applies to a larger audience).

I have a dd who plays violin and wants to do Celtic fiddling, but I have not been able to find any local teachers, groups, sessions, etc.. I wonder if there are fiddlers who teach online? She would still take classical lessons locally. She has taught herself some songs, but I imagine there are techniques and musical traditions specific to fiddling that she could best learn from someone familiar with the genre.

[Donna]

I have a dd who plays violin and wants to do Celtic fiddling, but I have not been able to find any local teachers, groups, sessions, etc.. I wonder if there are fiddlers who teach online? She would still take classical lessons locally. She has taught herself some songs, but I imagine there are techniques and musical traditions specific to fiddling that she could best learn from someone familiar with the genre.

 

Your daughter may like to try or listen to music from the different "Celtic" traditions (Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, etc...) as they are all different in style and she might find one she prefers. Youtube is great for listening. Summer music camps are great for trying out different styles. You might try www.thesession.org for finding sessions.

 

My dd's teacher teaches people all over the world via Skype if you'd like to pm me, I might be able to help you out with people to listen to as well.

[Mandy in TN]

Just to clarify, when ds actually started taking lessons, he went to a Suzuki certified instructor. Now, he takes from a traditional violin teacher who uses Suzuki books and does some fiddle music alongside.

OTOH- Donna's dd is a gifted musician. There are entire states in the US that don't have a single child who plays Celtic fiddle close to her dd's level. I have checked out your (Donna's) blog over the years, and everything your dd does is so cool. She also always looks so happy about doing it. That instrument is part of who she is. My son's instrument is just something he does, and I feel like he is still playing in part because when he was tiny I didn't dictate that he practice for a certain amount of time each and every day. He just enjoyed it at his pace (which is definitely not your dd's pace or level of enjoyment ;) ).

HTH-
Mandy

[alef]

Your daughter may like to try or listen to music from the different "Celtic" traditions (Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, etc...) as they are all different in style and she might find one she prefers. Youtube is great for listening. Summer music camps are great for trying out different styles. You might try www.thesession.org for finding sessions.

 

My dd's teacher teaches people all over the world via Skype if you'd like to pm me, I might be able to help you out with people to listen to as well.

I just tried to send a PM but I think the computer ate it. Trying again...

[lewelma]

Is this the kind of program that works best with a teacher who is trained and familiar with it? I checked the ABRSM website for the US but there doesn't seem to be anything in my state--no exams offered or local contact.

 

You can definitely self-study if you want.  But as others have said, you can't really self study violin or you will end up with *terrible* technique that is virtually impossible to get rid of.  Instead, I would simply tell a teacher that you would like to follow the ABRSM curriculum.  If you buy the books you can just hand them to the teacher. You don't have to take the exams; they just keep you honest. What ABRSM insures is that you advance evenly in all musical skills.  So there are books to help you improve your sight reading, and cds to help with your oral work, and workbooks for theory etc.  The program simply tells you that for 'grade 3' (not 3rd grade) that each of the 5 skills (sight reading, aural/oral, scales, performance with accompaniment, theory) should be at xxx level, and then you move onto 'grade 4' in each of the 5 skills.  In this way you don't end up like me: I was once quite accomplished at piano (auditioned an got into university), but only in performance; I could not sight read any music. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[Mandy in TN]

You can definitely self-study if you want. But as others have said, you can't really self study violin or you will end up with *terrible* technique that is virtually impossible to get rid of. Instead, I would simply tell a teacher that you would like to follow the ABRSM curriculum. If you buy the books you can just hand them to the teacher. You don't have to take the exams; they just keep you honest. What ABRSM insures is that you advance evenly in all musical skills. So there are books to help you improve your sight reading, and cds to help with your oral work, and workbooks for theory etc. The program simply tells you that for 'grade 3' (not 3rd grade) that each of the 5 skills (sight reading, aural/oral, scales, performance with accompaniment, theory) should be at xxx level, and then you move onto 'grade 4' in each of the 5 skills. In this way you don't end up like me: I was once quite accomplished at piano (auditioned an got into university), but only in performance; I could not sight read any music.

Ruth in NZ

I also checked on this a year or so ago when I watched a video of your son playing with two other boys. Thanks for the additional information.
Mandy

[KSinNS]

Having problems with quotes, so Ruth, Mandy, and lewelma. Canada has a similar system to ABRSM-the Royal Conservatory of Music. They have an organized program of music study with scales, studies, songs, theory, sight-reading and ear training, and exams all levelled, for most instruments. They are starting/trying to spread into the US through the ?"Carnegie Hall" program.  It's all on the RCM website. The grades will be different from the ABRSM but it's the same idea. For whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be a similar type of program in the states (all of my American musician friends are mystified by our obsession with exams.) There are good points to following the RCM programs (our suzuki teacher does encourage us to do the exams along with the suzuki work). It gives you an honest appraisal of your kid's playing, gives the kid something to work towards, and encourages/forces them to learn to sight read, do etudes and scales, learn theory. They also learn at a young age about playing for an adjudicator/auditioner (the good, the bad, and the ugly). On the minus, some teachers, kids, and families put way too much emphasis on exam results, so they can become a stressor.

[momma2three]

Yes, the music school that we go is a founding partner of the RCM program.  Personally, I'm a little dubious about it... honestly, it primarily seems like a way to convince parents to pay even more money on top of the regular lessons.  But we are using the books suggested by the program for piano, and they're good.

[Dmmetler]

I will also say, for US folks-ABRSM grade 1 is NOT equivalent to book 1, at least not for piano. It's more like 2b or 3a of most US series.

[lewelma]

Grade 5 ABRSM is equilavent to 10th grade. I think Grade 3 is middle school for a standard student. Obviously if you practice more you will do this work at a faster rate.

In the past, a distinction at grade 8 for UK citizens guaranteed you acceptance into a conservatory, but I think there is more to it now.

[alef]

Does anyone know how to buy ABRSM materials in the States?

[Dmmetler]

You can order them on their website.

[lewelma]

Don't quote me as I will take this down. 

 

Here is my son playing probably a grade 4 piece if played as an individual, but made harder by having to work as a Trio.  All of these kids are grade 5 musicians, and this piece was prepared in 8 1-hour lessons.  The main difficulty apparently was getting a full violin (my boy) to not overwhelm the 1/2 size (younger and very talented boy). 

 

Here is the link.

 

Ruth in NZ

[lewelma]

I just put into Amazon: ABRSM sight reading, ABRSM theory, ABRSM violin as some examples, and this is what I found:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_4_6?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=abrsm%20music%20theory%20in%20practice&sprefix=abrsm+%2Cstripbooks%2C339

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=abrsm%20sight%20reading&sprefix=abrsm+sig%2Cstripbooks&rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3Aabrsm%20sight%20reading

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=abrsm+violin&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Aabrsm+violin

[Donna]

OTOH- Donna's dd is a gifted musician. There are entire states in the US that don't have a single child who plays Celtic fiddle close to her dd's level. I have checked out your (Donna's) blog over the years, and everything your dd does is so cool. She also always looks so happy about doing it. That instrument is part of who she is. My son's instrument is just something he does, and I feel like he is still playing in part because when he was tiny I didn't dictate that he practice for a certain amount of time each and every day. He just enjoyed it at his pace (which is definitely not your dd's pace or level of enjoyment ;) ).

 

I do have two boys who are not as passionate about their music but enjoy playing. When my dd started playing, I had no idea how she would progress and allowed her interest to guide practice just as I did with the boys. That approach worked well for all my kids. Different kids learn differently and have different interest levels. I didn't have any goals of my own for their music except that they enjoy it.

 

I took years of piano lessons (10 years) and hated to practice maybe in part because my parents required me to practice a certain amount of time every day. It seemed a disruption to the things I wanted to do in my free time like play outside with the neighbor kids or read a book. I wanted my kids to have a different experience with music.

[alef]

I do have two boys who are not as passionate about their music but enjoy playing. When my dd started playing, I had no idea how she would progress and allowed her interest to guide practice just as I did with the boys. That approach worked well for all my kids. Different kids learn differently and have different interest levels. I didn't have any goals of my own for their music except that they enjoy it.

 

I took years of piano lessons (10 years) and hated to practice maybe in part because my parents required me to practice a certain amount of time every day. It seemed a disruption to the things I wanted to do in my free time like play outside with the neighbor kids or read a book. I wanted my kids to have  a different experience with music.

 

It has been hard for me to find the right balance between encouraging/supporting  and requiring. My eight year old is very musical, he plays a bit of several instruments and really enjoys playing by ear, but  doing the hard work to gain new skills doesn't usually happen unless I require it. I think kids with good executive function skills can take the lead in practicing, but those without may need more external scaffolding or they really struggle to get the practicing done even when they have internal motivation to play.