Questions about India? Happy to try and answer them.

[Cammie]

Dear Hive,

 

I know we did this with England and maybe some other places.  I was fascinated to read the replies about England and I learned a lot!

 

I have lived in India - off and on - for the last 25 years.  I have lived in Bangalore for the last 8 continuously.  I have a MA in South Asian Studies and I am married into an Indian family.

 

I know there is a lot of interest in India, and a lot of misconceptions.  I will do my best to answer them (and I am sure there are some Indian parents on the Board who can also help!)

 

 

- Cammie

[Cammie]

Ok -I'll give you a question we get a lot when we are travelling - what language do you all speak?

 

Interestingly, India does not have any "national language."  It does have two "official" languages for the purpose of the national government - Hindi and English.

 

The Constitution recognizes 22(!) languages that deserve special protection and promotion.

 

Each state comes up with its own language policy for the state government.  Many states were created along language boundaries.  For example, the four states of South India have four different languages - Telugu, Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam. 

 

The most amazing thing is how easily Indians seem to pick up languages!!  And these are separate languages - not dialects!  People who work in my house, who have very little formal education, routinely speak FIVE languages - the language of our state (Kannada), the language of their family (Tamil), Hindi, English and some of another south Indian language.  The shopkeepers in my area are mostly from North India - they are even more amazing with languages.  They are able to haggle and sell in more languages than I can count!!

 

Hindi movies (Bollywood) are popular across the country.  But we have regional cinemas in the regional languages as well (Tollywood, Kollywood, Sandlewood!)  Often a popular regional language film will get remade into other regional languages or Hindi. 

 

In school kids have to pick which language they will be educated in. That will be their first language.  Then they will usually have a second and a third language that they take in school.  In international schools they first language is English.  My dd takes Hindi as her second language with no third language required because of her grade level.  My ds takes English as his first, Hindi as his second and Spanish as his third.

 

It is enough to make your head swim sometimes!!

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

This is just a year too early! DD is doing an archeological dig on India, but not until next fall. Well, anyway....

 

I'd suspect westerners have vague ideas about the historical caste systems, with a side order of misconceptions. Is it still rigid and formal? Is it fading with subsequent new generations? Somewhere in between?

[Cammie]

This is just a year too early! DD is doing an archeological dig on India, but not until next fall. Well, anyway....

 

I'd suspect westerners have vague ideas about the historical caste systems, with a side order of misconceptions. Is it still rigid and formal? Is it fading with subsequent new generations? Somewhere in between?

 

Oh, that is amazing!! Where will she be?

 

The caste system is one of those concepts that seems to shift in importance depending on where you are.

 

In an urban environment, for the most part of your life, it really has no impact for a vast majority of people.  However, it is true that those people who have the worst jobs in the city (trash collectors, sewer cleaners) all come from traditionally "lower" or "backward" castes.   My kids would have a very limited idea of anything related to caste...and I think the same is true for most of the Indian families in our neighborhood.  However regional identities are very strong (what state you are from, what language is spoken at home, what foods are eaten, what festivals are celebrated - all can change from one house to the next!)

 

However, in schools and government jobs, there are quotas and reserved seats for people from certain groups and castes.  This has of course created tensions between groups the same way affirmative action has in America.  The government has tried to identify traditionally marginalized groups (often based on caste designations) and to offer assistance to those groups.

 

And in marriage it is still often an important part of the arranged marriage list of qualifications for a potential spouse. 

 

The more rural the area, the more remote, the more important the issue becomes.  There are strong divisions that exists between certain groups and they still inform politics and property in many areas.

 

For a foreigner it would have virtually no impact.  But I am constantly surprised on the cultural clues my husband can pick up on that inform him of a particular caste background of someone.  Mostly, people can identify Brahmins because of the religious and dietary activities.  Other than that group there are hundreds of sub-divisions of other groups that are sometimes only regional or exist only in certain areas.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Actually, the dig will come to us. There's this retired archeologist who does them for ps and hs groups, mostly in NY, NJ, and eastern PA. I think DD has done ten digs so far.

 

The artifacts are real (if not quite museum grade), the tools and techniques are real, using grids and brushes, and they go down about 3 feet, so by day four, all the kids are lying on the ground to reach the bottom of the dig.

 

It's pretty neat.

[Liz CA]

Thanks Cammie! We live in an area in the U.S that has a relatively large Punjabi population. Many work around our property (orchard) and I noticed that most if not all of them are extremely afraid of dogs. We have a large but gentle dog. I try not to let the dog get near them but occasionally he runs over to someone to greet them and they do not appreciate it. :) Many have climbed up the tree with a frightened expresson on their face. It makes me feel even worse because I cannot even apologize or tell them they don't need to fear the dog becaus I don't speak Punjabi. It this common in India? Are dogs viewed mostly like predatory animals?

[Kate in Arabia]

Most of my Indian inlaws are afraid of dogs and even cats.  I think they are looked on more as feral animals than as pets, and several people I have talked to about it have related personal stories of bad experiences with feral dogs or cats when they were little.  My kids and I were volunteering at our local animal shelter and there was a construction crew on site with workers from India and the greater region.  I saw a redback spider in one of the kennels, I was afraid to go in there because of the spider and asked one of the men to help me.  He was fine with the spider but afraid of the dog that was in there -- we made quite a pair, lol.

 

[Incognito]

From what I understood while in India, part of the issue with dogs is that they are generally dirty street animals (and rabies is a real possibility there).  I saw some very sad dogs on the streets there (but also some very sad children and disabled people - I guess I feel like it does a disservice to only mention the poor dogs on the street when there are people living just as poorly alongside them.  The "rescue the dogs from the streets of X" organizations sort of get to me, thus this aside).

 

I also have understood from Indian friends that it is easy for them to know the caste of someone because the last name tells it.  That is part of why the Sihk people often all have the same last names - they have religiously chosen to be outside of the caste system, so they have removed that marker.

 

Here's my odd question - while there, we noticed there is a morning ritual of loud throat clearing and spitting (especially in the countryside).  Is there a health reason for this, or just a random habit or? 

 

 

[NorthwestMom]

Most of my Indian inlaws are afraid of dogs and even cats.  I think they are looked on more as feral animals than as pets, and several people I have talked to about it have related personal stories of bad experiences with feral dogs or cats when they were little.  

 

I was an exchange student in Bombay in the late 1980s.  One day I came home from school and my host mother and the maid were out in the apartment hallway, visibly upset.  A stray cat had come in through the open window. I told them I would shoo it out and they were like, "NO!  It's too dangerous!" LOL. I reminded them we had a pet cat at home and they were baffled and horrified by that news, but agreed I could go in and deal with the cat.  I walked into the apartment, saw the cat sitting on a table, and said, "GO!" at it quite sternly. It immediately jumped back through the window and I was the heroine of the day in my family. :)  They told their friends about it for weeks. LOL.

[Kalmia]

We are currently living in India, but know far less about it than Cammie for sure, but our experience with the street dogs has been quite negative. My impression is, and Cammie will correct me if I am wrong, the dogs are differing degrees of semi-feral to informal pets. Some dogs seem to attach themselves to business owners or security guards or other people who feed them. These dogs are used to people and activity and generally seem to ignore passers-by on the streets. Other dogs live in parks or empty lots and while people may feed them, they mostly rely on garbage in the streets, rats, and other animals for food. These dogs I would consider feral. 

 

An American might be shocked at the sheer numbers of street dogs. In the Bangalore region, they are everywhere, on every street in the city and in villages. Some of them even sleep in the streets with the traffic flowing past. There are organizations that spay and neuter them before releasing them back to the streets, but clearly they can't keep up with the situation. In some areas, like Bangalore, the street dogs are protected by law. I can understand this from a compassionate standpoint, but from a public health standpoint I just can't see how it can be justified. Rabies is epidemic in the street dog population, they are adding even more bodily wastes to the streets and water runoff, and some of them are dangerous. My cleaning lady's four-year-old daughter was bitten in the face by a street dog; my husband was approached by two, ears-back, growling street dogs he was certain were going to attack him--a swift kick in their direction made them hesitate long enough for him to get away; and I had the unfortunate luck of observing a pack of street dogs tearing apart a live cat. So it makes perfect sense that Indian people might be wary of dogs, and ironically especially friendly pets as those dogs often approach people directly. In general, Indian street dogs walk along as if on their own mission. As they pass you are pretty sure that they are taking no notice of you. In contrast, a big friendly American golden retriever bouncing up to an Indian ex-pat might indeed inspire terror! If an Indian street dog demonstrated that behavior, you would be right to assume there was something very wrong with it or that it was going to attack you.

 

Basically, if I were in charge (which I am not) all the street dogs that weren't claimed as informal pets, would be removed from the streets. However, in general, the society here is flexible enough to live with them, which is a very compassionate approach. 

 

 

[Camelfeet]

Basically, if I were in charge (which I am not) all the street dogs that weren't claimed as informal pets, would be removed from the streets. However, in general, the society here is flexible enough to live with them, which is a very compassionate approach. 

 

Is it really compassionate though, if the average quality of life for a street dog is low, with a short and painful life?  I mean if the dog problem in India is like what we saw in Sri Lanka... well, death by starvation, illness and injury isn't a nice way to die.

 

No questions to OP except can I come and visit your house for a while?  ;)

[Cammie]

I knew we would have lots of people with India experience - very cool!!  Yes, I agree with everything that has been answered on the dog issue.  For the most part, in most places, there will be two types of dogs.  There will be street dogs and there will be dogs kept and trained for protection.  The street dogs are unpredictable.  Often they just go about their business and ignore all the people.  Sometimes they are rabid, sometimes they attack small children.  I find the dogs trained for protection to be even scarier!!  I know lots of people with what I think of as fairly vicious dogs kept as guard dogs in the home.  In my community we have a fair number of people who keep dogs as pets - but these are mostly people who have lived abroad at some point.

 

How to deal with the street dog problem - it is tricky.  Many of the street dogs are fed by the people on the street they live on.  The people on the street feel loyal to "their" dog and feel that the dog alerts them to strangers who come on the street.  Lots of animal protection groups have prevented any culling of the dogs.  We can't even call anyone to remove a street dog that starts living within our gated community - it is not legal to "relocate" street dogs!  I have read, however, horror stories about other cities with major problems with street dogs.  I think it was Rio that culled all the dogs...and was then overrun with rats!!  Given our terrible garbage problem - I think I would rather keep the dogs than increase the rats!!

[Cammie]

Is it really compassionate though, if the average quality of life for a street dog is low, with a short and painful life?  I mean if the dog problem in India is like what we saw in Sri Lanka... well, death by starvation, illness and injury isn't a nice way to die.

 

No questions to OP except can I come and visit your house for a while?   ;)

 

Sure - happy to have you!  I have met a few people in Bangalore that I first met through the Boards - so fun!

 

[Rosie_0801]

Hindi movies (Bollywood) are popular across the country.  But we have regional cinemas in the regional languages as well (Tollywood, Kollywood, Sandlewood!)  Often a popular regional language film will get remade into other regional languages or Hindi. 

 

 

My brother's question: "Can you recommend any Punjabi movies, because the only ones I have, Rosie hates."

 

My question: "Do you know of any decent picture books about Hindu festivals because Amazon didn't have much to show for itself."

[Cammie]

From what I understood while in India, part of the issue with dogs is that they are generally dirty street animals (and rabies is a real possibility there).  I saw some very sad dogs on the streets there (but also some very sad children and disabled people - I guess I feel like it does a disservice to only mention the poor dogs on the street when there are people living just as poorly alongside them.  The "rescue the dogs from the streets of X" organizations sort of get to me, thus this aside).

 

I also have understood from Indian friends that it is easy for them to know the caste of someone because the last name tells it.  That is part of why the Sihk people often all have the same last names - they have religiously chosen to be outside of the caste system, so they have removed that marker.

 

Here's my odd question - while there, we noticed there is a morning ritual of loud throat clearing and spitting (especially in the countryside).  Is there a health reason for this, or just a random habit or? 

 

LOL!  I totally understand what you are talking about - as would anyone who lived in India for any length of time!!  I wish I had a better answer.  As far as I have been able to tell - it is a part of a general morning ritual that includes - brushing teeth, scraping the tongue, blowing the nose and clearing of the throat (and of course spitting out whatever was coughed up!)  I think this is mostly with the older and more rural people - certainly not something I hear or see except when the in-laws are visiting!!  I just think there is not the stigma against loud bodily noises here that we might have in the US.

[Cammie]

My brother's question: "Can you recommend any Punjabi movies, because the only ones I have, Rosie hates."

 

My question: "Do you know of any decent picture books about Hindu festivals because Amazon didn't have much to show for itself."

 

Rosie - I don't know anything about Punjabi regional cinema - I would have thought they watched Bollywood or Hindi movies.  In Hindi movies we have a few favorites - Laagaan (colonial times, cricket, really entertaining), Chak De India (about a women's field hockey team), Three Idiots (learning to resist the pressure to be what your parents want you to be).  There are lots more depending on the type of movie you like.

 

As for the books - I like the What I Believe book - Alan Brown - it does include Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism.  Looking through my books I had to laugh because while I have lots of books about other places...I don't have many on India!!  I guess since we live it I haven't felt the need to go any more in depth with the kids.

 

[Cammie]

Actually, the dig will come to us. There's this retired archeologist who does them for ps and hs groups, mostly in NY, NJ, and eastern PA. I think DD has done ten digs so far.

 

The artifacts are real (if not quite museum grade), the tools and techniques are real, using grids and brushes, and they go down about 3 feet, so by day four, all the kids are lying on the ground to reach the bottom of the dig.

 

It's pretty neat.

 

This just sounds incredible - I didn't know there were programs like this!  These are some of the amazing opportunities that I sometimes think my kids are missing out on by growing up in India!

 

[Kalmia]

Re: hacking and spitting: I see a lot more spitting (mostly by men) on the street here than in the US. But both here and in the US, I have often wondered why as I have never, ever--even when sick--felt the immediate need to spit, but perhaps that is just me or just a girl thing. My husband suspects that the high level of pollution and dust may have something to do with all the hacking and spitting. These things are quite irritating to the nose and lungs.

 

Re: compassion: I am probably getting myself in trouble here, but I have seen a general cultural trend that makes me believe that in India a definition of  compassion would most likely include more giving living things the opportunity for life rather than a guarantee of a good life. There are religious groups here including the Jain, that definitely sacrifice their own "good life" by extending compassion and respect to life to all things for example, insects. They would not kill mosquitos even though mosquitos can carry malaria and dengue fever, they do not eat root crops because insects may be disturbed by the digging process, etc. 

 

Re: Cats: My husband keeps saying that Indian people aren't fond of cats and his coworkers and driver keep correcting him and saying that they do like cats! Probably some do and some don't! It could even be regional. There are lots of stray cats that are fed by the people in our community. I think that if people do keep cats they keep them indoors and so we don't see them generally. From my firsthand observation, cats are in great danger from the street dogs and that would be one reason they seem rare here. Maybe if the dogs numbers were reduced, cats could take over the rat control?

 

p.s. for Cammie: my son "did the dig" too for several years with Dr. Geoff Purcell. He focuses on a different ancient culture each time. Lectures and prepares the site by having the dig's hosts bury the artifacts in a particular arrangement in different strata. It is an amazing (and probably one of a kind) program, however you can take (and probably have taken) your kids to visit the real archeological sites at Mahabs and Chitradurga and Hampi that our archeologist can only lecture about.

[Laura Corin]

Re: hacking and spitting: I see a lot more spitting (mostly by men) on the street here than in the US. But both here and in the US, I have often wondered why as I have never, ever--even when sick--felt the immediate need to spit, but perhaps that is just me or just a girl thing. 

 

 

I think it's partly habitual.  Husband's family all spit (privately in the bathroom) - middle class from Dallas.  I suspect that if you hear others in the family doing it, you give it a try and may find it physically satisfying.  One of my boys spits; the other doesn't.  Those of us who don't spit are probably used to the feeling of swallowing any goo that we feel in our throats; those who spit prefer to bring it up.

 

People in China spit a lot, even in the city where I lived which has low air pollution.  Smoking is very common, however.

 

L

[Alessandra]

Slight tangent, but for dogs in some Muslim countries, it's not just that they are unclean and feral, but that they roam in large, hungry packs. My dog-loving relatives who spent time in Saudi Arabia said they were frightened of the dogs.

 

I also have understood from Indian friends that it is easy for them to know the caste of someone because the last name tells it.  That is part of why the Sihk people often all have the same last names - they have religiously chosen to be outside of the caste system, so they have removed that marker.

 

 

I'm sort of embarrassed to ask (and would NEVER ask IRL), but I have often wondered what people observe when they distinguish one caste from another, both in India and in U.S./abroad. (I can recognize Sikhs, obviously.) I hope this doesn't sound racial. I am just curious. 

 

Cammie -- I am amazed about the languages. I always knew about Hindi + English + local language, which seemed like a lot to me. But to add several more to that mix -- amazing! I wonder if anyone had studied brains of multi language speakers versus single or dual language speakers.

 

Another question, about Hinduism. I have read that it is the only one of the five major religions that does not encourage converts. (Wiki tells me there are a few converts, but not many.) What is your take on this? When I try to talk to Indian friends, they seem more reluctant than my Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist friends to discuss religion. They will say a little about Holi, but once when I stumbled into a Ganesh festival (being held in a local church building), my friend did not say much when I brought up the subject later. Are Indians apprehensive that some westerners, even liberal ones, may be puzzled at a non-monotheistic religion? 

 

Also on religion, I have read that many Hindu temples (at least in my area, New Jersey) serve particular gropus. I can't remember if that was caste groups, or language groups, or groups from a particular region of India, or economic groups, but if you have any insight, I would love to hear, as it would be far to awkward to ask irl.

[Alessandra]

My Indian in-laws speak English only. They are from a minority group of Anglo Indians, many of whom are part of the diaspora. They are Catholic.

 

I would love to know more about Anglo Indians. Are most Anglo Indians RC or Anglican? Do they speak with a British accent?

[MooCow]

Thanks Cammie! We live in an area in the U.S that has a relatively large Punjabi population. Many work around our property (orchard) and I noticed that most if not all of them are extremely afraid of dogs. We have a large but gentle dog. I try not to let the dog get near them but occasionally he runs over to someone to greet them and they do not appreciate it. :) Many have climbed up the tree with a frightened expresson on their face. It makes me feel even worse because I cannot even apologize or tell them they don't need to fear the dog becaus I don't speak Punjabi. It this common in India? Are dogs viewed mostly like predatory animals?

 

My father is from Punjab...we always had dogs and cats growing up....same thing w/most of my relatives. In fact we have quite a few vets in the extended family. :)

 

ETA: I have never seen my father spit or hack.

 I have also never heard my stepmom make any bodily noises except a surprise belch

a few times in over thirty years.

 

I one the other hand, growing up loved to annoy her with various body sounds. :laugh:

Which of course would get me a lecture in ladylike behavior, to which I would

usually respond with a rude body function. My poor stepmom....Thank

goodness I eventually learned :lol:

[Cammie]

Slight tangent, but for dogs in some Muslim countries, it's not just that they are unclean and feral, but that they roam in large, hungry packs. My dog-loving relatives who spent time in Saudi Arabia said they were frightened of the dogs.

 

 

I'm sort of embarrassed to ask (and would NEVER ask IRL), but I have often wondered what people observe when they distinguish one caste from another, both in India and in U.S./abroad. (I can recognize Sikhs, obviously.) I hope this doesn't sound racial. I am just curious. 

 

Cammie -- I am amazed about the languages. I always knew about Hindi + English + local language, which seemed like a lot to me. But to add several more to that mix -- amazing! I wonder if anyone had studied brains of multi language speakers versus single or dual language speakers.

 

Another question, about Hinduism. I have read that it is the only one of the five major religions that does not encourage converts. (Wiki tells me there are a few converts, but not many.) What is your take on this? When I try to talk to Indian friends, they seem more reluctant than my Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist friends to discuss religion. They will say a little about Holi, but once when I stumbled into a Ganesh festival (being held in a local church building), my friend did not say much when I brought up the subject later. Are Indians apprehensive that some westerners, even liberal ones, may be puzzled at a non-monotheistic religion? 

 

Also on religion, I have read that many Hindu temples (at least in my area, New Jersey) serve particular gropus. I can't remember if that was caste groups, or language groups, or groups from a particular region of India, or economic groups, but if you have any insight, I would love to hear, as it would be far to awkward to ask irl.

 

Interesting questions...this is making me think more than I thought it would!

 

Regarding what people see that help them determine caste I would have to say names are the first thing that would be a give away.  Then any obvious religious symbols/marks/jewelry.   Then from knowing certain peoples eating habits you might be able to guess.  Whether they are veg, strict veg, no onion-type, etc.  Then also when you get to know them knowing where they are from will give it away sometimes.  In our social circle NO one ever talks about caste but I would guess that we could ID all the Brahmins.  Outside of that unless they are from my Dh's same state it would be hard for us to guess.  If they are from Dh's same state, he might be able to tell from the name if they are from one of the two big castes in that state.  Many, many caste groups use the caste name as a last name - so that is of course a give away.  Then, in the larger society there are jobs that are a dead give away.  So if you know someone is a serer cleaner, or a trash collector you know they are from a "schedule caste" or "other backward caste" as the government refers to the "lower" castes now.

 

On the langue thing - I am constantly amazed how people here with very little formal education are absolutely amazing with languages!!!

 

Hinduism is very interesting when it comes to conversion.  My understanding is that there is no formal way to "convert" into Hinduism.  That is why most temples feel comfortable excluding all foreigners.  Because if you aren't Indian...you can't be a Hindu in their mind.  That doesn't mean that lots of foreigners have not adopted Hindu traditions.  We all know Hare Krishnas and there are many foreign devotees of all different gurus and temples here in India.  It is just that there is no formal process.  One of the conservative Hindu groups did try to create a process a few years back.  This was done, I think, in order to create a way for Indians who were not Hindu to "convert" back to Hinduism.  You don't hear anything about it anymore so I don't think it ever really caught on.

 

In talking about Hinduism with family and friends, I think there is probably a reluctance to discuss it because there is a worry that it will be seen as "too strange" or "too weird" and they don't want to be judged.  I can just speak from personal experience here but my family and in laws don't seem to think too deeply about religion.  They do what they do, they celebrate what they are expected to celebrate and they go to the temples they are expected to go to.  But they would not really be comfortable explaining why they do all of it.  Of course there are people here who are deeply religious and deeply spiritual as well.  I find that once people understand that you do not intend to mock or criticize but that you sincerely want to understand, they are very open to sharing the experience (even if they can't explain all the whys.)

 

Absolutely, temples can be split along caste lines, regional lines, language lines.  The interesting thing in India is that it also happens with churches sometimes as well.  Some of it is logistical - you have a Tamil service, a Telugu service and an English service at different times.  But some of it is more cultural - certain groups being more comfortable with their own crowd than mixing with another crowd.  Some of it is historical and in some places some of it is still very much based on a belief that some people are "unclean" and therefore shouldn't be allowed into temples.  Some interesting news this year about widows becoming priests in a certain temple, about certain practices that discriminated being banned.  There is change and modernization as well.

 

[Cammie]

I would love to know more about Anglo Indians. Are most Anglo Indians RC or Anglican? Do they speak with a British accent?

 

I can share what I know and maybe others can add to it.  Ango-Indians are people who are at some point in their family history of mixed British and Indian heritage.  Technically it was for people who paternal side was British but I think it is now expanded.  English is the first language in the community and they can be RC, Anglican or Protestant.  In the communities I have met, you can see differences in how the ladies dress - for example a dress as opposed to a sari.  You can also see differences in the food that is eaten - very traditional British roots.  They are generally lighter complexioned as well.  They have Indian accents as the British part of the family happened most likely back in the colonial times.

[Cammie]

Ok Hive - since I am in India and the time difference is HUGE - heading off to bed.  Will check in the AM to see what questions you all have.  This has been great for me - sometimes I just go with the flow and live in India without THINKING about India. 

 

Goodnight.

[itsmylife]

 

 

Another question, about Hinduism. I have read that it is the only one of the five major religions that does not encourage converts.

 

There is no concept of conversion in Hinduism.  A person can be born a Hindu but cannot become - and one of the requirements to be a Hindu is to be born in India.  Hindus who leave the country (or cross the seas) are no longer Hindu.  Something not many Hindus living in other countries want to think about :-)  Especially the Gita-thumping religious fanatics :-) :-)

 

One of the reasons Mahatma Gandhi's father didn't want him to go to England for further studies was because he Gandhi would no longer be Hindu if he crossed the shores of India. 

[itsmylife]

I would love to know more about Anglo Indians. Are most Anglo Indians RC or Anglican? Do they speak with a British accent?

 

Anglo Indians are Indians with part British ancestory - mostly paternal as a pp mentioned.  Sadly the community is in danger of becoming extinct - their numbers have significantly dwindled in last 30 years or so :-(  Most of them have emigrated to other countries or have married into the mainstream Indian communities. 

 

A large number of Britishers - working class (in the railways and army mostly) - ended up either co-habiting or marrying Indian women.  Most of these women came from the poorer sections of the society or were Christain converts.  The offspring of these parents are Anglo-Indians.  Unfortunately, most of these women/children ended up being deserted by their fathers.  The men left when their jobs were finished - very few of them ended up staying back with their Indian families.  The offspring ended up forming their own community and created a unique culture which was very British with an Indian flavor thrown in. 

 

I grew up surrounded by Anglo Indians - all of them Catholics.  We lived close to a big church (and a large mosque) which was why there was a huge Anglo Indian population in the neighborhood.  The women worked very hard (either teachers or secretaries in offices) and the men worked in government offices.  They spoke only in English and kept up all British appearances.

 

I can go on and on about the community and culture.  I had so many good friends growing up but unfortunately lost touch with them.  I don't believe there is even one Anglo Indian family left in the neigborhood anymore :-(

[KarenNC]

Fascinating that so many Anglo-Indians are Catholic. I would have expected Anglican. Wonder how that came about?

[KarenNC]

There is no concept of conversion in Hinduism.  A person can be born a Hindu but cannot become - and one of the requirements to be a Hindu is to be born in India.  Hindus who leave the country (or cross the seas) are no longer Hindu.  Something not many Hindus living in other countries want to think about :-)  Especially the Gita-thumping religious fanatics :-) :-)

 

One of the reasons Mahatma Gandhi's father didn't want him to go to England for further studies was because he Gandhi would no longer be Hindu if he crossed the shores of India. 

 

Interesting. I've not come across that before. Could you point me to some source material on it? Is this teaching universal or part of a particular sect?

[Heather in Neverland]

There is no concept of conversion in Hinduism. A person can be born a Hindu but cannot become - and one of the requirements to be a Hindu is to be born in India. Hindus who leave the country (or cross the seas) are no longer Hindu. Something not many Hindus living in other countries want to think about :-) Especially the Gita-thumping religious fanatics :-) :-)

 

One of the reasons Mahatma Gandhi's father didn't want him to go to England for further studies was because he Gandhi would no longer be Hindu if he crossed the shores of India.

I think the 2 million Hindus living and worshipping (and born) here in Malaysia would be surprised to hear that they are not really Hindu.

[Matryoshka]

I think the 2 million Hindus living and worshipping (and born) here in Malaysia would be surprised to hear that they are not really Hindu.

 

Yeah, someone better tell all the Hindus here in the US this too. ;)  I teach world religions to the middle schoolers at my church.  We just did a unit on Hinduism and visited the rather huge Hindu temple near us.  (On Sundays they have three services to accommodate everyone - in India, Hindus don't necessarily even visit temples regularly; most worship at home and attend temple for festivals and other special occasions - it's more common, though by no means universal, for them to attend the temple regularly in the diaspora).  They are extremely welcoming; anyone can come visit at any time.  They are very happy to explain their beliefs at length, and they also have a large bookstore and the librarian also welcomed us to come in and read and ask questions anytime.  I'm no expert, but I've done a lot of reading and research on this starting with an Indian Anthropology class in college, and doing research for teaching the kids, which included reading lots and long talks with my friends' Hindu in-laws (who were also happy to talk about their beliefs).

 

Anyway, someone who's actually Hindu can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this (and I'm sure I won't get it all right!), but from what I've read and heard, (most?) Hindus don't consider themselves polytheists.  There is one God, Brahman (not to be confused with one of the three gods of the Hindu "trinity", Brahma, or with the highest caste, Brahmin), and all the other gods of Hinduism are just facets, or aspects, of the one God, who does not have a body and is infinite, timeless, and everywhere and in everything and all of us.  Because God is infinite, it is too much for our human minds to understand, so they focus on one or more aspects.  Atman, the soul or the part of us that is also part of God, is also timeless, but has separated, and the cause-and-effect of karma keeps it separate through many lives through the cycle of reincarnation/samsara.  The spiritual goal of a Hindu is to break the cycle of samsara become one with Brahman.

 

I don't find these parts of Hindu beliefs "strange" at all - there's lots about Hindu theology that makes more sense to me than Christian theology, honestly.  But Hinduism is also a way of life and cultural identity, that's why really no converts.  If you haven't grown up with it, that part is, well, foreign.

 

[itsmylife]

I think the 2 million Hindus living and worshipping (and born) here in Malaysia would be surprised to hear that they are not really Hindu.

 

Actually most of them would not be suprised to learn of this - they just ignore it.  Google the topic and you will find more than a few references to the topic and why it is believed that Hindus who cross the seas lose their religion. 

 

And yes, Hinduism a more a way of life than a religion.  And it is a way of life that is very geographically defined.  All the ancient Hindu treatises constantly refer to India, its rivers, forests, flora and fauna.  Take away India from the Hindu context and there is not very much left to it.  Yes, it can be adapted to other geographies but the very basis of the way of life defined by Hinduism is very much tied to the sub-continent.

 

I don't want to hijack a discussion on India and turn it into a discussion on Hinduism.  If anyone is interested, please start another thread.

[itsmylife]

Interesting. I've not come across that before. Could you point me to some source material on it? Is this teaching universal or part of a particular sect?

 

Google it :-)  I really can't point you to a source - its something that I learnt growing up as a Hindu. 

 

There isn't one holy book that the Hindus follow - there isn't a standard like the Bible or Koran.  Most often, the Gita is referred to as the sacred book that Hindus follow but in reality there are the Vedas, Upanishads, the Puranas, etc and each of these consist of a series of books.  I don't really know which of these books contains the answer to this.

 

Hinduism is constantly evolving - the Hinduism practiced today is different from how it was practiced 50 years ago.  There was a "reforming" period where a lot of beliefs were explained differently and deemed no longer applicable in today's time.  One of them was travelling abroad.  Google more on this and you will find out as times changed, the concept of losing one's religion when travelling abroad was redefined. 

[Rosie_0801]

Google it :-)  I really can't point you to a source - its something that I learnt growing up as a Hindu. 

 

There isn't one holy book that the Hindus follow - there isn't a standard like the Bible or Koran.  Most often, the Gita is referred to as the sacred book that Hindus follow but in reality there are the Vedas, Upanishads, the Puranas, etc and each of these consist of a series of books.  I don't really know which of these books contains the answer to this.

 

Are there kiddie versions of these books? In English, obviously. :p

 

 

 

It sound like Hinduism with India removed would be Indian inspired neo-paganism. Interesting.

[Cammie]

Fascinating that so many Anglo-Indians are Catholic. I would have expected Anglican. Wonder how that came about?

 

It may depend on what area of the country you are in.  Unlike the other poster, most of the Anglo-Indians I have met have been Protestant - Methodist, Baptist, Church of South India (which was created by 5 Protestant denominations I believe.)  Catholics are very prevalent in areas that were colonized by the Portuguese - like Goa.  So it really may change by geography.

 

[Cammie]

With so many people, does it feel really crowded all the time, everywhere?

 

Not all the time...but definitely some of the time!!  I am not a person who enjoys crowds are there are places and times I avoid going out because of the crowds.  Shopping on the weekends - hardly ever.  Certain special events - avoided.  That being said, the most overwhelmed I have ever been by sheer number of people was on a weekend in Shanghai China during a holiday - so by comparison I don't think India seems crowded most of the time!

[Cammie]

That's exactly what my uninformed imagination assumes it's like. You see the videos of people on buses and trains, or just at the station, you know, and it looks like you could draw a thin line connecting one end to the other with no breaks, where people are physically touching. Which is probably more inhibitive for shorties, than taller folks, I imagine (again).

 

 

Do people mostly walk, bike, train or car in India? Or something else. I assume that, like, most places, it just plumb depends, but thought I'd ask? How about, do most people shop in stores such as we have in the States, or more in markets?

 

Biting my lip, hoping these questions aren't hopelessly ignorant. All I know of India is what I've read in history books and seen on nature shows and Anthony Bourdain of course, God bless him.

 

Yes, I think the question of personal space is very different from the question about "crowded."  Personal space is a very different concept in India.  In terms of "privacy" you can't expect much!  I know having household help around all of the time really gets under the skin of many Westerners who live here for a time.  Lots of people I know forgo any help in order to regain some privacy.  In my daily life, there is someone around ALL THE TIME.  Be it the lovely lady who is my housekeeper who is home 9-6, or when I am out there is the driver.  When I am at home it seems like a constant stream of people!  I don't mind it - but other people do.

 

As for physically touching - what I have found is that it is amazing how crowded a place can be...and yet you don't get touched!  Leaving aside people who are trying to harass you (few and far between where I live) I have found that somehow people find a way to give just enough space so you don't get touched.  This may be because I am a woman. It may be because I am a foreigner - hard to tell!!

 

I live in a BIG city - so transportation options are huge.  I would say most of the middle class own a motorcycle, small car, take the bus.  The bus has a few different levels of accommodation.  There are more expensive plusher busses that the professionals take and there are really old, terrible looking buses that are cheaper that the poorer people take.  We just got a metro train in the city but it only has 5 stops now and I don't think too many people are using it.  There are a million bicycles everywhere as well!

 

Shopping has changed dramatically in the last 8 years!  I think most people still rely on the small shops close to where they live.  There are vegetable guys that push carts around as well so you can wait till he comes to your neighborhood. Most neighborhood shops deliver home which is a great convenience.  Now, more and more, there are big fancy supermarkets coming up and very plush malls.  Clearly these are for a wealthier class of people.  What I think most people don't really appreciate is that India has a HUGE and growing middle class and a HUGE and growing upper class. There is a LOT of money in India and that can been seen in all the newer shopping options. 

 

There is never a bad question!!

 

[Cammie]

 

 

Anyway, someone who's actually Hindu can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this (and I'm sure I won't get it all right!), but from what I've read and heard, (most?) Hindus don't consider themselves polytheists.  There is one God, Brahman (not to be confused with one of the three gods of the Hindu "trinity", Brahma, or with the highest caste, Brahmin), and all the other gods of Hinduism are just facets, or aspects, of the one God, who does not have a body and is infinite, timeless, and everywhere and in everything and all of us.  Because God is infinite, it is too much for our human minds to understand, so they focus on one or more aspects.  Atman, the soul or the part of us that is also part of God, is also timeless, but has separated, and the cause-and-effect of karma keeps it separate through many lives through the cycle of reincarnation/samsara.  The spiritual goal of a Hindu is to break the cycle of samsara become one with Brahman.

 

 

 

It would be interesting to hear a practicing Hindu comment on the above.  To my recollection this was a concept that evolved to make Hinduism more palatable in the West.  To present itself as a monotheistic religion with different facets as opposed to a polytheistic religion.  I have to say, it is my belief, that 99% of Hindus would not hold the above belief.  People are very attached to the deity that they choose to worship and it seems to me that the specific deity is God to them (but it doesn't mean that other deities are not also God.)

 

I also think there is a HUGE gap between philosophical Hinduism and practical Hinduism.  Perhaps that explains the above.  While scholars have researched the texts and translated the scriptures and thought a lot about the philosophical implications of all of it...the regular person has not.  Hinduism as practiced is very personal, very specific. 

 

Interesting to think about!

[Matryoshka]

It would be interesting to hear a practicing Hindu comment on the above.  To my recollection this was a concept that evolved to make Hinduism more palatable in the West.  To present itself as a monotheistic religion with different facets as opposed to a polytheistic religion.  I have to say, it is my belief, that 99% of Hindus would not hold the above belief.  People are very attached to the deity that they choose to worship and it seems to me that the specific deity is God to them (but it doesn't mean that other deities are not also God.)

 

I have had practicing Hindus tell me this.  The guy at the temple even went so far as to say that they used the idols to "focus" rather than worshipping the idol itself.  He even tried to liken it to the Catholic statues (which as we all know are "venerated" not "worshipped") and also to images of Jesus on the cross.  (The kids didn't get this at all, as our church is not Catholic and has no saints or other statues/icons at all, nor do we have a Jesus on the cross, just a plain one). 

 

I'm not sure that analogy holds - - I had thought somehow that in Hinduism the god was considered present in the statue (as God is in everything) and was considered be itself holy/god - kind of like "the image of an angel becomes an angel" (to throw in a Dr. Who analogy...).  I have a feeling the Cathollc saint analogy the guy made was perhaps to make the idols seem more palatable to Western sensibilities.  But again, I'm a bit unclear on this, especially after that explanation... 

 

The All Gods Are One thing, though, I think is not just for the West's benefit.  Each of the main gods in turn have different aspects - think of Vishnu - he is one of the main "trinity".  He also has 10 avatars (Rama and Krishna are the best known - some list the Buddha as one of Vishnu's avatars - ).  All are still Vishnu.  Each of the main three has a female counterpart (their "consort).  Parvati (Shiva's consort) is also woshipped as Kali and Durga (and whole lot of others), each of whom are very different, but still aspects of Parvati. 

 

Also I don't think Hindus see a contraction at all to having a personal deity (or dieties) which they specifically worship and are attached to and have a relationship to, and the concept of the one-ness of Brahman. A topic of discussion in my Indian Anthropology class was that Hindus, and Indian culture in general, are very comfortable with contradiction where Westerners see things that are mutually exclusive.  Like how can Parvati (benevolent mother goddess) and Kali (has necklace of skulls and stands on men she's slain) be the same goddess?  (Guess they understand not to piss mom off ;) )

 

 

I also think there is a HUGE gap between philosophical Hinduism and practical Hinduism.  Perhaps that explains the above.  While scholars have researched the texts and translated the scriptures and thought a lot about the philosophical implications of all of it...the regular person has not.  Hinduism as practiced is very personal, very specific. 

 

Here I think you are absolutely correct.  There are four paths in Hinduism - one is spiritual knowledge through studying the texts and understanding the theology, and another is just simple devotion to and worship of one or more of the deities - it is not expected that everyone becomes and expert on the theology, or even studies it in the slightest.   I'd guess the majority of Hindus just do the worship and the festivals, as part of their daily life, which is completely valid. 

 

The Hindus I've met, who are all in the diaspora, don't have that daily practice and cultural reinforcement, so I think they either think more about the theology and go regularly to temple to pass the culture and religion on to their kids, or become fairly secular and by the 2nd generation it fades.  My dds have a friend at school, whose parents are really old-school in some ways (they plan to marry her off to someone arranged, much to her horror) - I think they may be Brahmins - but she says they never go to temple, and she knows almost nothing about Hinduism, not even the names of many of the gods, much less any theology.  I think they still do some festivals, but they don't seem to have explained much to her about the meaning behind any of it.

[KarenNC]

It sound like Hinduism with India removed would be Indian inspired neo-paganism. Interesting.

 

I'd probably look first more toward the models of Judaism after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE (which destroyed the focus of worship for all Jews), then the diaspora, and Tibetan Buddhism once the Dalai Lama was forced from Tibet. Both are examples of the way religions rooted in a certain geographical area adapted and survived when no longer in that area. If you haven't read "The Jew in the Lotus," by Rodger Kamentz, which talks about both, it's well worth doing so, btw.

 

Of course, there are also similarities in many strands of Neopaganism, particularly Reconstructionist strands, as many are based on finding a way to practice a religion that was synonymous with both a particular community and a particular geographical location, when that community no longer exists and one is not in that geographical location. I see the Jewish/Buddhist link as more apt, though, because, at least in the case of Judaism, there are still Jews in the traditional geographic location now, practicing the religion (even if the Temple worship aspect is no longer an option) and there hasn't been the 1000+ year break in daily practice that exists with most Neopagan religions. I don't know how much of Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet is actually surviving Chinese control of the country.

[KarenNC]

I also think there is a HUGE gap between philosophical Hinduism and practical Hinduism.  Perhaps that explains the above.  While scholars have researched the texts and translated the scriptures and thought a lot about the philosophical implications of all of it...the regular person has not.  Hinduism as practiced is very personal, very specific. 

 

I think the same can be said for most religions. :001_smile:

[Rosie_0801]

Thanks Karen. I've put that on my wish list and shall hope it won't be *too* long before I can apply some better quality thinking about the subject. :)  I guess I meant "it would look like" not "it would be" but that's still fairly meaningless since the distinctions only exist in my head.
 

 

[Cammie]

On the transport - forgot to mention the auto rickshaws - the little automatic three wheeled contraptions that are really the heart of the transport system for many people here.  I don't use them - the haggling that is required is just out of my comfort zone.  However, they really are everywhere and used by a huge percentage of the population as their primary means of transport.

[Incognito]

Rosie - I don't see the post, but I think I saw you ask about children's books about India?  We have a couple that I like.  Lights for Gita is a basic children's book (with storyline), but it shows a cultural celebration.  http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Gita-Rachna-Gilmore/dp/0884481514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389076114&sr=8-1&keywords=lights+for+gita  I don't think I'd pay full amazon price for it, but I got it at a book sale for a couple of dollars and am pleased. 

 

I is for India has lots of nice pictures.  http://www.amazon.com/I-Is-India-World-Alphabets/dp/1845073207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389076246&sr=8-1&keywords=I+is+for+India  It's an alphabet book through the country, so no story, but great pictures and information snippets.  Highly recommend.

 

 

[Kalmia]

Re: personal space: I am an introvert who likes a wide circle of open space between myself and the next person, so in some situations India has been difficult. This is most often the case when lining up. Everyone who has been to school in the US has been drilled endlessly that line etiquette requires taking turns, forming a straight, single file line, asking if you are unsure of your place in line, and never never cutting in line. As far as I can tell Indian line etiquette has no requirements but takes several forms: the perpetually flowing line (people from the back of the line skipping ahead to the front and pushing those in the front backward); the line of great width and little depth (15 people two deep horizontal to the counter); and the "I don't recognize your position in this line, so I am going to get in front of you" cutting method (this one happened to me ALL THE TIME until I realized I could allow NO space between me and the person in front of me or between me and the counter). Interestingly enough, if you are in one of the perpetually flowing lines, no one touches you, people just slip into the tiniest spaces imaginable and the spaces magically expand to accommodate them (driving, too, operates exactly on this theory--much to the horror of the "1 car length between you per 10 mph" adherent!).