AP, CLEP or SAT II?

[dragons in the flower bed]

My son's sole purpose in testing is to show some outside validation to admissions officers that he can really do the work we say he can do. He's looking at doing one in Spanish and one in each of the four main subject areas - science, social studies, math and English. Neither of the colleges in which he is interested give credit for CLEP, nor do they require SAT IIs in any specific area. So our question is, which tests should he take, AP, CLEP, or SAT IIs?

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Seems to me that taking CLEP without the benefit of the credit would be a waste, but I'd be interested to hear the admission dept's take on AP's.  Some colleges are kinda down on those.

 

:bigear:

[snowbeltmom]

My kids have/will take SAT II's because some schools either require or highly recommend SAT II's along with either the SAT I or ACT with writing. 

 

The chemistry and physics SAT II's overlap quite a bit with the corresponding AP exams (some of the other tests may overlap as well, but I have no knowledge of those tests).  My kids have/will take both the SAT II's and AP's in these subjects because the additional prep time is minimal. 

 

I am not familiar with CLEP because none of the schools on my junior's list accept them or require them as part of the admissions process.

[regentrude]

If no credit for CLEP is given, I'd consider it useless.

 

I would chose between SATII and AP.  A few issues that you need to consider:

SATII tests high school level knowledge, AP tests college level. Is your DS doing college level work in all those subjects?

Does the college give credit for AP?

AP tests are scheduled only once a year; SATII can be taken several times each year. Any AP test from senior year will be taken after college acceptances are in; only AP tests from Jr year make the transcript for applications. In contrast, you can squeak in SAT scores from Fall of senior year.

You can register for SATIIs online, but need to negotiate with a specific school for AP.

 

You talk about math: what level math would he want to test? SATII tests through precalculus, AP is calculus.

 

ETA: DD took four SATII exams and no APs. She applied to schools that require several SATIIs. She used dual enrollment at university for outside validation of college level work; earning a credit continuously over the course of a semester works better for her than betting all on a one day high stakes test and having nothing to show for if that test does not give a 4 or 5.

[readwithem]

I would check with the schools where he's applying.  College Girl did APs and SAT subject tests, since her college wouldn't give credit for CLEP.  She tried to "overlap" (to the extent she could) by doing the SAT and AP of the same subject in the spring of her junior year - I believe she did Chemistry and math and maybe French that way.  

[G5052]

Just remember a college's main purpose is to make money. That's why many are changing their stance on accepting AP credits.

 

FWIW, this isn't at all the impression I've ever had in 15 years of teaching at the college level.  The vast majority of college personnel I know and have known love the advancement of education, not the financial end of it.  And that includes several college presidents that were/are personal friends of mine.

 

Anyway, from all that I've been told, the reason that AP credits are falling into disfavor is that high scores don't necessary correlate with the equivalent level of knowledge and analysis at the college level.  For example, Dartmouth dropped credits for AP exams after doing a study where they gave those who scored a 5 on the AP Psychology exam the final in the equivalent class.  In the study, 90% of those students failed it.  The same was done locally at a 4-year school with English, and they found that a 5 on the AP English Composition exam didn't necessarily correlate with the skills covered in their English 101-111 sequence.  So they dropped AP credit for that, and require that all students take their courses, transfer those courses in from certain schools, or submit a portfolio of certain writing samples and sit for a 2-hour essay exam.

 

We're in a different situation because the schools we're looking at do accept a handful of CLEPs (not many though), so mine will be taking a few CLEP exams (2 history, psychology), AP exams for the AP courses they're taking, and then 2-3 SAT I exams.  I'm not pursuing AP exams unless they're taking AP courses.

[bettyandbob]

I no longer homeschool, but at the colleges dd and I have visited SAT II are specifically mentioned for homeschoolers during the admissions presentation before the tour. None of these schools require SAT IIs for applicants in general,  but it was specific to homeschool. 

 

You should check with schools you are targeting. All the schools we visited are state universities in VA. 

[creekland]

I'm with the others in that I'd choose between AP and SAT II based upon which works better for your student.

 

My guys (all three of them) did DE (2 did/will get credit for their courses) and middle son did 2 APs (got credit for both).  We never needed any SAT IIs, but I'd have considered them before CLEP.

 

A high SAT or ACT will be your best asset.  The other validation comes close behind.  If you know what schools you might be interested in, check their website to see what they prefer to see from homeschoolers.  If in doubt, e-mail (or call, but I like e-mail for the "paper" trail) and ask.  That's how we found out we didn't need any SAT IIs (schools specifically told us that in our situation - high ACT and DE) that taking SAT IIs would be useless/needless.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Thanks, everyone. Based on the info y'all have shared here, I believe we will focus on SAT IIs. The colleges he's interested in mostly do not give credit for APs (and yes, he's too young to know what college he'll target, but he "narrowed it down" to 30 schools and when that many mostly don't care about APs I have to think it's a trend or something). Also, I'd rather he do high school level work in high school and not try to master college-level stuff before he gets there.

[Elisabet1]

If it is for the admissions office, then the SAT 2.

[readwithem]

FWIW my dd didn't decide till mid-junior to do APs - and that was based on the excellent PSAT experience she had at our local public high school.  She did two APs each junior and senior year and entered her freshman year of college with 15 credits.  So if he is at grade level age-wise, he doesn't have to decide which horse(s) to ride for a few more years. :)  But as Elisabet1 stated above, if it is solely for admissions, the SAT II is the way to go.  Students self-report AP scores till after senior year, when the colleges want an official report (and then you only need to send scores to the one school where your student will actually matriculate).

[Barbara H]

You are very smart to ask these questions early in the process. I wanted to mention three things you might want to consider.

 

1. The vast majority of schools provide credit for at least some APs, many schools provide quite a lot of credit. This includes highly selective schools. It is a myth that most schools don't provide AP credits. Most schools in the country do provide credit and that includes many of the most elite colleges. Here are some examples of AP policies from highly selective schools that provide credits for APs:

Stanford AP policy

University of Chicago AP policy

MIT AP Policy

University of Michigan AP policy

 

There are a few schools that don't provide AP credit or placement (Brown and Dartmouth for example). But, that is a handful compared to a sea that do use APs for placement and/or credit.

 

2. APs are college level work. Not ever student is ready for this and I absolutely agree this is a consideration people need to take seriously.  It is important to understand though at the more highly selective schools MOST students will have had AP level work in high school. That's true even of most mid-tier state flagships. If that's not where your student is, it may be a struggle to be competitive both for admissions and in some of those intro courses. Just to give an example, if your student is in a science major intro biology course at a really competitive school, most of the students in that class will have had the AP, or if not AP level work in that subject. Most students DON'T go to this narrow range of highly selective schools so that's less of an issue. But, if your student is aiming primarily at the most selective schools that's something to really think about. It isn't just about proving something for admissions, it is about readiness for the level of instruction that will be provided at the school.

 

3. APs can save students a lot of money. I encourage families to really consider the circumstances of your individual student before you write off APs entirely. For some students at some schools strategically using APs can make a huge difference. I've seen students shave a full year off college or be able to add a second degree or graduate courses that make them more competitive for career or grad school. There are a lot of individual considerations here - the school, the course of study, the student's ability to do well on exams, etc.  For some students APs don't make sense, but for some homeschoolers they can be extremely helpful. SAT subject tests are a requirement at some colleges though so even if your student has had APs that is still something to plan for.

 

Also, keep in mind that these policies change from year to year so you can try to plan but it is also important to be flexible too.

 

 

[creekland]

Thanks, everyone. Based on the info y'all have shared here, I believe we will focus on SAT IIs. The colleges he's interested in mostly do not give credit for APs (and yes, he's too young to know what college he'll target, but he "narrowed it down" to 30 schools and when that many mostly don't care about APs I have to think it's a trend or something). Also, I'd rather he do high school level work in high school and not try to master college-level stuff before he gets there.

 

Be careful with this as it will depend upon the level of school he is looking at.  Mid and lower level schools will not care a hoot about APs (and many times they won't need much in verification other than an SAT/ACT score too).

 

Upper mid and higher level schools will EXPECT students coming in to have had AP level work whether they give credit for it or not.  It's true that students make it in each year without that level work IF their school didn't offer it, but rarely true that kids can make it in if their school offers it (one would need an awesome hook).  Beyond that, the student who gets in without that level is at a severe disadvantage as the basic "101" class will assume that foundation and build from there.  At a lower level school the 101 class merely repeats AP material (for the most part).  This is WHY some schools will/won't give credit for AP, but it in no way means that upper level schools don't want to see AP level (with or without the test).  You can skip the tests if you prefer (don't call your courses AP in that case as it will raise a red flag - you can't call them AP without permission anyway), but the foundational level should still be there.

 

I've compared a fair number of Bio 101 classes at this point (at least based upon early tests).  AP/CC/DE and lower to mid level schools are fairly equivalent and one can easily substitute AP credit for the course.  At top schools, the AP material is built upon and one would often be foolish to accept credit EXCEPT if they are "done" with those courses and do not need to build on them.  Most schools recognize this and will let non-majors accept credit, but not so for majors.

 

Regarding Calc, one is foolish to accept credit and move on to the next course UNLESS they either take the school's placement exam and do well or look at an example of the final and feel they would have done well.  Some classes are far more in depth than others in this subject too.

 

Just my two cents... based on some experience I've seen from my own students and those who return to visit our school that I get to talk with.

 

 

 

2. APs are college level work. Not ever student is ready for this and I absolutely agree this is a consideration people need to take seriously.  It is important to understand though at the more highly selective schools MOST students will have had AP level work in high school. That's true even of most mid-tier state flagships. If that's not where your student is, it may be a struggle to be competitive both for admissions and in some of those intro courses. Just to give an example, if your student is in a science major intro biology course at a really competitive school, most of the students in that class will have had the AP, or if not AP level work in that subject. Most students DON'T go to this narrow range of highly selective schools so that's less of an issue. But, if your student is aiming primarily at the most selective schools that's something to really think about. It isn't just about proving something for admissions, it is about readiness for the level of instruction that will be provided at the school.

 

 

 

:iagree:

[Muttichen]

  Students self-report AP scores till after senior year, when the colleges want an official report (and then you only need to send scores to the one school where your student will actually matriculate).

This isn't necessarily true.  We had our kids' AP scores sent to all of the colleges they applied to.  We wanted to show that our children had taken many challenging courses and had excelled at them.  The most selective schools do not give credit for APs, but they are expecting to see them and it will be much more difficult to get in without them.  Even if your child is not applying to highly selective schools, he or she will likely be competing for scholarship money with students who have taken APs.  They are a very accessible way for homeschoolers to prove that they've provided a rigorous education for their child.

[wapiti]

I don't see why you'd have to choose one or the other.  If he is considering schools that require SAT II tests, then obviously you must tentatively plan on those.  Then, I'd consider adding in AP (or possibly DE), depending on his ability in a particular subject area.

 

Thinking out loud, is it not the more selective schools that tend to require SAT II scores?  If he is applying to selective schools, it would make sense to me that it may help to have some APs (or possibly DE courses in lieu of AP?), if possible, for admissions purposes.  I would not confuse a school's AP credit policy with whether APs (and/or DE?) are, or are not, helpful in a competitive admissions environment.