cold weather clothing, safety etc.

[Pen]

We have snow which is rare here, yay! However, we also have dropping temperatures which I am not used to dealing with.   3 below 0 F. today in middle of day, and "Real feel" with wind chill below that.

 

The first day was not far below freezing and was fine for play and sledding, and I am hoping that will be the case again tomorrow. Yesterday, however, my ds and a friend both age 11, went sledding and got too cold, though not actually hypothermia, but enough to have numb hands and feet. I'm trying to figure out a sensible balance between safety and fun. We do not currently own ski type clothing, though if it is going to keep getting like this it might make sense. He is currently upset because I said he could not go sledding now when it has gone up to 19 deg. F and real feel about 10 deg., but that at 4PM when I expect it would also start to drop temperature again and get dark in not to long. I said he could go out, but had to stay around the house and be back in 20 minutes, or that he could invite a friend over to play indoors. I realize though that snow and sledding is a lot more fun and not something we get most of the time and hate to deprive him of the opportunity, but also do not want to have a cold injury problem. The sledding area takes about a ten minute walk to get to including crossing a sometimes slippery bridge (esp. for me, if I had to go across it to the kids in an emergency). 

 

We do have things like Bog boots, wool hat, jacket, rain pants, gloves (but not waterproof ones and they got partly ripped yesterday also). He has polyester long underwear but can't find it, and the cotton ones he can find seem to get damp cold. Generally we are set up for what it usually isin winter, namely around 40 deg F and rainy.  At the moment we have running water both hot and cold, but earlier today the hot was frozen, which also means it makes it harder to get warmed up if one comes in cold. We also have a dog who got injured yesterday (possibly hit by sled) while playing and who I am trying to keep calm and quiet--local vets were closed and emergency vet in the city seemed like a risk to be driving there on unplowed roads. 

 

Thoughts on making snow fun safe, both for now and things to get to have on hand for the future? If you  have occasional snow in your area, what do you use for clothes for it and at what temperature do you have children stay in?

[Mergath]

We live in MN. It was thirty below zero with the windchill the other day when we were outside, so I made dd wear a hat and gloves. ;) Kids will generally come in to warm up long before frostbite and hypothermia set in.

[regentrude]

when the kids were little, they had simple snow suits; later water resistant rain pants over sweat pants.

They wore hats and gloves.

When I went sledding with them or go winter hiking, I'd wear rain pants over fleece pants and a normal winter coat (plus hat and gloves)

None of us ever owned "ski" clothes.

Moving around keeps pretty warm. I don't think we would go out if it was below zero Farenheit.

 

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

It is hit and miss here for snow.... thankfully we just got some ice then snow... we have a great hill too :)

 

Coveralls work great.... we have had alot of snow suits in the past, but they are all gone now... we layer and use coats, hats, and gloves.

 

Thankfully we all have boots or SNOW boots ( many free from Columbia so I don't even have to wear socks!  

 

I have had the most trouble with our 3 and 5 year old sneaking out or staying too long... I have to keep the hot chocolate, dh  and ds are cooking meals and renting movies or games to keep them in the house some.

 It was so cold I got a headache from it in a few minutes..on Friday.  We have gone out when we should not have before but I made sure we were dressed in 3 or more layers including socks and that we did not stay out too long.  I love the snow!!

 

I need to shop for some good insulated pants for next time... Goodwill will probably have some :)

 

 

[Nan in Mass]

You can put adult socks on their hands over their gloves, before you put their coats on. It is somewhat cumbersum but will help keep their hands warm. If they object too much, cut a hole for their thumbs. Teach them to pull their thumbs into their gloves to warm them up, if there is enough room in the gloves. Bread bags inside their boots will help keep their feet warm. You can also cut the tip off a sock and cut a hole for a thumb and make wrist warmers. Make sure their shirt is tucked in. Hoods are great. You can put up the hood of a raincoat or jacket and then wrap a scarf (or a strip of cloth or dish towel) around over nose and mouth and tie it in the back. A scarf or bandana inside a coat helps to make the coat much warmer. If they are running up hills, then sliding down, then running up again, they will probably be warm. If they get warm enough, their hands will be warm, too. You have to watch ears. Make sure to take any earrings out if it gets too cold. Those act as heat sinks. If it is cold enough, you don't really have to worry about getting wet.

 

Mostly mine came in when they got cold so I didn't worry. I did watch their faces if it was below about 20 and blowing and they were small.

 

HTH

Nan

[Rachel]

I grew up in SD, we went out in all temps. It isn't likely to get below 0 where I now live, so I can't really say how cold or how long I'd let my kids play outside. I have noticed that with the humidity here, a 25 degree day feels colder than 5 degrees up there does.

 

My sister said it was -10 when they did chores yesterday. My niece (4) and nephew (8) wear regular clothes then over that insulated bibs (carharts), heavy winter coat, heavy socks, Sorel boots, gloves, and a hat when they do chores. I think they sometimes wear a scarf or neck gaiter over their faces.

 

You need to dress them in layers, for playing in the snow the outer layer must be waterproof.

We don't get a ton of snow where I now live but I do put my kids in snow pants and boots. I tried having them wear two layers of their socks and then one of my heavy pairs in rain boots one winter, even in the 20s their feet got cold pretty quickly. If your feet or hands get cold it's hard to warm back up. You should be able to find kids' snow pants for under $20 from Walmart or Target (check online if your store doesn't have them), they will most likely be black, but they'll be warm and if you don't need them daily for several months, last through the winter. If you can't find waterproof gloves, at least go with fleece. They won't be very warm in single digits but they will repel some water.

[Nan in Mass]

Forgot to add (and can't edit this morning for some reason) - mine wore their flannel pajamas under their pants as long underwear. They still do this lol (in their 20's now). Yes, it is cotton, so it would not be good for camping or a long hike away from someplace to warm up, but they worked fine for playing (or working) in the yard and sledding. You can use nylon gym pants as a layer, too. Mine always had snow pants, so the pj's just were an extra layer, or a layer when they just were feeling chilly. Youngest is probably wearing his under his jeans to class at college today lol. Mine also had rain gear, but I didn't let them wear that for sledding because it would get beat up. Rain boots with smartwool socks turned out to be better than snow boots here because the liners of the snowboots would get wet and take forever to dry whereas the children had a number of wool socks and could put dry ones on every time they went out. If we'd had more 0 degree weather, we would have needed proper winter boots with felt liners. For years, my husband and I skied in long underwear, jeans, and nylon gym pants. As long as it wasNOT too warm (so we got wet) and we kept moving, it was ok. We couldn't afford a lift ticket AND adult snow pants lol and we only skied once a year, as our Christmas present. Mittens are much warmer than gloves. Mine didn't have snow gloves, just leather work gloves, which they didn't wear for playing in the snow. I taught them to pull their thumbs into their mittens when they weren't using them. They prefered the knitted mittens unless it was really windy out because they moved more easily. They had ragwool double mittens for when it was particularly cold. The rest of the time they used ordinary mittens. Their friends' nylon mittens took forever to dry so we never bothered with those. Even now, when we do more skiing (and have more money), the boys use liner gloves and mittens. If it is below zero and windy, we give them those disposable hand warmers. If they aren't playing, they use their work gloves, which have some insulation.Nan

 

ETA - Added a missed NOT.

[Plink]

Nothing keeps my kids out of the snow. If they are uncomfortable, they come in on their own.

 

In your case, without waterproof gloves, I would expect that the fun will be over fairly quickly. Bummer.

[Plink]

Oh, and you should be much more concerned about the fact that your water lines are freezing than finding snow clothes. Keep the house warm and allow the water to run slowly all day long until the temps are back to well above freezing. Burst pipes are no fun.

[Pen]

Thanks everyone! Lots of good ideas! 

 

Does anyone know if rubbing something like coconut oil into a pair of insulated leather gloves would make them waterproof or at least wet resistant? Or would it make the snow cling to them and be worse? I have an old pair that he can wear if this would work. 

 

I think there is a gear component, an acclimatization component, and also a knowledge and education component to dealing with weather.

 

Gear I am starting to get ideas of for what we may be able to use on hand right now, like the plastic bag as an extra layer for feet, and his  rain jacket over his warm jacket if they will fit that way. I am also getting together some thoughts about things to have on hand as winter gear (like to deliberately buy a rain jacket that will fit over a warmer one, waterproof gloves, or maybe mittens with liners, that would not go to waste in our regular situation, but could also be used, perhaps doubled up, for the extra cold situation, if it happens any particular year, or this becomes more regular.

 

Now I think the education component is also needed: I knew to tell my ds that if he accidentally fell into the creek in winter, even if just one foot goes in, and even if it is above freezing he needed to come home right away and get dry and warm, and so when that did happen once he did. But I think the snow, being unusual for here, gives more of an incentive to stay out and there is not as obvious a sign of need to go home as a fall or step into water. I am not so clear on what to tell him--if you feel _____ then come home. I did tell him if he ever starts to shiver out there (or sees a friend or the dog doing that) he/they need/s to come home immediately and keep moving don't stop, and impressed on him that when one has hypothermia one will first feel cold, but then think one is warming up and that everything is fine when it actually isn't. Any other thoughts about things to say to a child on weather education basics?

 

Are there weather safety education materials for children? Maybe scout handbooks would have things on that? I cannot get anything for this storm, because we are staying put--advisory is not to go anywhere except in an emergency. However, it seems like it would be a good idea for the future.

 

 

[Mergath]

 

Now I think the education component is also needed: I knew to tell my ds that if he accidentally fell into the creek in winter, even if just one foot goes in, and even if it is above freezing he needed to come home right away and get dry and warm, and so when that did happen once he did. But I think the snow, being unusual for here, gives more of an incentive to stay out and there is not as obvious a sign of need to go home as a fall or step into water. I am not so clear on what to tell him--if you feel _____ then come home. I did tell him if he ever starts to shiver out there (or sees a friend or the dog doing that) he/they need/s to come home immediately and keep moving don't stop, and impressed on him that when one has hypothermia one will first feel cold, but then think one is warming up and that everything is fine when it actually isn't. Any other thoughts about things to say to a child on weather education basics?

 

 

Honestly, I think you're going to make him terrified to set foot outside, lol.  Take a breath.  I shiver all the time if I'm outside for too long, and I've never gotten hypothermia or frostbite.  And yes, you feel warm after you feel cold when you have hypothermia, but you also feel warm if you start moving around and generate some heat.

 

Tell him that if his hands, feet, or ears start to hurt- not just feel cold, but hurt- to come in and warm up.  Beyond that, he'll be fine, I promise.  As long as he's running around and wearing a half-decent coat, he's not going to get hypothermia in around twenty degree weather even if he's outside all day.

[Pen]

Honestly, I think you're going to make him terrified to set foot outside, lol.  Take a breath.  I shiver all the time if I'm outside for too long, and I've never gotten hypothermia or frostbite.  And yes, you feel warm after you feel cold when you have hypothermia, but you also feel warm if you start moving around and generate some heat.

 

Tell him that if his hands, feet, or ears start to hurt- not just feel cold, but hurt- to come in and warm up.  Beyond that, he'll be fine, I promise.  As long as he's running around and wearing a half-decent coat, he's not going to get hypothermia in around twenty degree weather even if he's outside all day.

 

The shiver rule is the usual winter rule here. And it is not a stupid rule. I know someone whose child died of hypothermia in over 40 deg. F weather in this area--the boy was theoretically warmly enough dressed but had gotten wet then apparently sat down at the base where he was found dead.

 

It may well be that our relatively warmer and much damper conditions are actually more dangerous than your very cold presumably dry conditions. It is also not uncommon for people to misjudge local circumstances and get themselves into difficulties. In fact there is currently a hunt on for a family of 4 who went to play in the snow and disappeared. And because of terrain the searchers are said to be looking for a needle in a haystack, according to the news report this morning.

 

The wait till something hurts idea would be a simple rule to give, but I am not so sure if it is useful in our local conditions. We are in a fairly rugged mountain foothills area, and he is not in a nearby backyard when he is out playing since there is nowhere right here that both has a hill and does not lead into water.  Are you presuming that the child is in a back yard or near area of a farm when you suggest that rule? Would you still give it if it is a trek to get back home with some treacherous terrain and an icy bridge with no rails between? 

[Mergath]

The shiver rule is the usual winter rule here. And it is not a stupid rule. I know someone whose child died of hypothermia in over 40 deg. F weather in this area--the boy was theoretically warmly enough dressed but had gotten wet then apparently sat down at the base where he was found dead.

 

It may well be that our relatively warmer and much damper conditions are actually more dangerous than your very cold presumably dry conditions. It is also not uncommon for people to misjudge local circumstances and get themselves into difficulties. In fact there is currently a hunt on for a family of 4 who went to play in the snow and disappeared. And because of terrain the searchers are said to be looking for a needle in a haystack, according to the news report this morning.

 

The wait till something hurts idea would be a simple rule to give, but I am not so sure if it is useful in our local conditions. We are in a fairly rugged mountain foothills area, and he is not in a nearby backyard when he is out playing since there is nowhere right here that both has a hill and does not lead into water.  Are you presuming that the child is in a back yard or near area of a farm when you suggest that rule? Would you still give it if it is a trek to get back home with some treacherous terrain and an icy bridge with no rails between? 

 

Obviously, if you're out in the winter and you fall in the water, you go home.  But I don't think a dry, warmly-dressed kid needs to run home without stopping the second he shivers.  And from what I recall from the news, it was -21 when the family went missing.  In those conditions, we'd all be perfectly justified in keeping our kids inside.

 

And I wouldn't let my kid go unsupervised over "treacherous terrain and an icy bridge with no rails."  That would concern me much more than the cold.

[Nan in Mass]

Here, where a normal winter day is somewhere between 25 and 35 - not very cold, I told my children that if you start shivering, you need to run around and warm up. Not necessarily run home, but move. Sledding is a pretty wet sport at that temperature, so I didn't tell them to come home if they got wet, but I did tell them that if they fell in any water, they had to RUN home, without stopping. They went sledding unsupervised, but never without a friend or a brother along, and they knew they were supposed to stay together unless something went seriously wrong and one of them had to go find help. We counted (and still count) on the buddy system to keep them safe and they knew that was the reason they were allowed to do so much unsupervised. I told them to come home "if you get too cold". I don't think anybody ever bothered to define "too cold". I told them to be careful of the wind, and to poke their nose and cheeks every once in awhile to make sure they weren't getting too numb. Again, I don't think anybody bothered to define "too numb".

 

I know absolutely nothing about staying safe in a non-New England winter. I never had to define "too cold" because when they were little, I said, "You are too cold. We have to go home now." I can't even tell you how I knew when my 2yo's were too cold. I think if they looked pinched and weren't having a good time and when I stuck a finger up their sleeve, their wrist was cold? I'd probably have to learn a new set of guidelines if I moved to Minn. : )

 

I'd have to see the bridge in order to decide how I felt about it. And I'd have to know the children. Mine didn't fall off things very often but some of their friends couldn't walk across the driveway without falling over.

 

Nan

[Rachel]

It sounds like hypothermia is really on your mind because of a recent case near you, but it is really rare.  If your kids are wearing reasonable winter clothing, coming home when wet, and staying active, they should be OK. I think Nan has good advice on the shivering, move around if you start shivering.  It's when you can't stop shivering that hypothermia begins to be a concern.   I'm assuming your winters must normally be quite pleasant so it shouldn't be much of a worry at all.  You could always send a cell phone with the kids or a 2-way radio so you can check on them regularly.  

 

Most cases of hypothermia involve a person getting wet (trying to walk on ice then falling into water), being severely under dressed for conditions, or not moving around enough.  The cases of people not moving around enough are usually because of a medical condition or intoxication.  A typical kid will be moving around plenty or come home when cold.

 

I think weather is very subjective and what is considered warm or cold really depends on what you are used to.  We visited Alaska a couple years ago in late September.  A hot summer day in the area we visited would be 60 degrees, the town was in a valley surrounded by mountains.  One day during our visit it was 55 degrees and sunny.  It was a nice day, but I was wearing a light coat.  I saw several kids running around barefoot and even one woman sunbathing on her deck, I don't know anyone where I currently live who would sunbathe in that temp.  

 

On the flip side, I have a good friend who lives in Florida.  Field day at her kids' school this past May was cancelled due to cold weather, it was 70 outside.  For me 70 is about a perfect day and is warmer than I keep my house in winter.

[Plink]

Agreeing that shivering = play harder, not stop playing.

 

Uncontrollable shivering (shivering that doesn't stop with increased exercise) is very different.

[Pen]

All sorts of things depend on where one is, and what one is used to, and what one knows the reasonable precautions for, and what one has the proper equipment for. My dad grew up in Minnesota at least part of his childhood and is used to snow and cold--but also would have had the right gear for it. When I was in London one summer it got up to 70 deg F and people were getting heat prostration.

 

We do not have cell phone service here. And typical 2 way radio, walkie-talkie's do not penetrate around the foothill fingers. So it is very helpful maybe to say something like what you do or think you would do in my circumstances as you understand them would be to send a cell phone, but not to assume that I can do that. We do have an emergency whistle system, however.

 

Otoh, rugged conditions, bears, cougars,slippery bridges, icy creeks...that is par for the course here.

We learn the reasonable precautions for those things, and how to deal with it so that the risk is minimized.  If I didn't let him go out given that, he would not be able to go out, ever I guess. I'm trying to learn the reasonable precautions and gear for the snow and cold situation which is not par for the course here. With the right gear and knowledge, I am sure I'll feel equally comfortable with it.

 

Anyway, we did have a good safe sledding day yesterday, and an arrival home still warm and comfortable (though it was warmer than the few days before had been).  Thanks for the help, and other ideas still appreciated very much!

[Nan in Mass]

I'm glad you had a nice day.

Mine didn't have cell phones until late teens, or radios.

I am scared of cougars. : )

 

Nan

[stripe]

 Kids will generally come in to warm up long before frostbite and hypothermia set in.

I wouldn't assume all kids have that much common sense. At all.

 

Also, it is not necessary for someone to actually be in the cold for them to be in danger. I think it was in this show

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/making-more-stuff.html#making-stuff-colder

where they showed why a group of men in the army died from getting too cold, although it wasn't actually very cold -- they were wet.

[Pen]

I wouldn't assume all kids have that much common sense. At all.

 

Also, it is not necessary for someone to actually be in the cold for them to be in danger. I think it was in this show

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/making-more-stuff.html#making-stuff-colder

where they showed why a group of men in the army died from getting too cold, although it wasn't actually very cold -- they were wet.

 

 

Also, kids may more readily come in if there is a whole winter of possible time to play in snow, than if it is a rare event that they do not want to miss a minute of. Sort of like a kid with access to a backyard pool may come in after a short time of discomfort, but one who rarely gets access to water may be chattering and turning visibly purple while insisting that it is fine, it is warm.

 

So...he is out now, and I admit I will feel more relaxed once he is back, but I do think he will be okay. He is wearing the synthetic long underwear that got found, and my gloves, oiled with coconut oil, which does seem to work. And boots which were kept indoors over wool socks (usually boots live outside due to mud and wet, but new learning curve for me has led to keeping them in for this weather so that they are warm when put on). 

 

Tomorrow it may melt part way and then refreeze, which will be a whole 'nuther learning curve.

[Mergath]

I wouldn't assume all kids have that much common sense. At all.

 

Also, it is not necessary for someone to actually be in the cold for them to be in danger. I think it was in this show

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/making-more-stuff.html#making-stuff-colder

where they showed why a group of men in the army died from getting too cold, although it wasn't actually very cold -- they were wet.

 

I don't think it's common sense, so much as the discomfort from the cold reaches a point where it outweighs any outdoor fun.  My dd loves playing outside in the snow, but even she'll tell me when she's too cold and ready to go inside.  Kids are pretty smart. ;)

 

Being wet is a whole different ballgame.  If you get wet outside in the winter, you go in, period.

[Pen]

Been researching some more and have discovered that some of the signs some of you suggested looking for, pain, numbness, redness ?, are early stage frostnip or frostbite signs, but also whether the person shows these signs or not on the way to cold injury may depend on acclimatization and multi-generational place of residence. People who live in places that are very cold like Alaska may have more vaso-response to cold to try to self-warm by things the body does to reheat itself (shivering, redness) than people who are from milder climates. According to what I was reading.

 

Seems like as with sunburn, different people may be differently susceptible.

[Mergath]

Been researching some more and have discovered that some of the signs some of you suggested looking for, pain, numbness, redness ?, are early stage frostnip or frostbite signs, but also whether the person shows these signs or not on the way to cold injury may depend on acclimatization and multi-generational place of residence. People who live in places that are very cold like Alaska may have more vaso-response to cold to try to self-warm by things the body does to reheat itself (shivering, redness) than people who are from milder climates. According to what I was reading.

 

Seems like as with sunburn, different people may be differently susceptible.

 

If you don't like my advice, you don't have to research your way out of it.  Just make whatever decision you think is best. :)

 

By the way, if you have first degree frostbite (or frostnip, apparently) your skin will itch and get patchy.  Just having red skin isn't dangerous, or my nose would have fallen off years ago. ;)

[stripe]

I don't think it's common sense, so much as the discomfort from the cold reaches a point where it outweighs any outdoor fun.  My dd loves playing outside in the snow, but even she'll tell me when she's too cold and ready to go inside.  Kids are pretty smart. ;)

 

Being wet is a whole different ballgame.  If you get wet outside in the winter, you go in, period.

Based on my personal experience, sometimes it all seems very fun so that they ignore the discomfort. Obviously, my kids are not very smart. I wouldn't count ONLY on their complaints, is all I am advising.

[Saddlemomma]

We live in northern ME and temps usually get in the negatives here for extended periods with the winds.  LAYERING is your friend - base layer, regular clothes with vest if possible (keeping your core, head, and extremities warm most important), then ski pants, jacket, hat, mittens (not knit and not gloves), heavy socks, and low temp-rated boots, balaclava, ski mask, or scarf if possible.

 

Hypothermia is caused by prolonged exposure and sweating in your clothes, then cooling.  With the layers, you can take off an outer layer when exerting your body, then, put that layer back on immediately when exertion ceases. This is hard for kids to remember (putting stuff back on).

 

 This would be the perfect time for a lesson on cold weather survival, how cold temps affect the body, how people in cold climates adapt, and some experiments outside.  Most importantly, you need to get the important outerwear or improvise with heavy LAYERING under the rain pants.  Limit time outside.  Drive them to sledding hill and give them 20 minutes of sledding; then drive them home for hot chocolate to restore heat.  Above all, have fun and enjoy the rare treat.

 

[Nan in Mass]

Saddlemomma reminded me of something we told our children to do. And told them. And told them so often I can't believe I forgot to mention it. IF YOU ARE GETTING HOT, TAKE OFF YOUR SCARF. IF YOU ARE STILL HOT, UNZIP. IF YOU ARE STILL HOT, TAKE SOMETHING OFF. And put it in a dry, obvious place with the inside folded in so it stays dry. Don't put your mittens down - put them in your pocket or stuff them in your coat or something. If you've taken your coat off, remember to put it on again before you get cold (basically, as soon as you stop moving) because it will be cold inside and you have to be warm enough to warm the coat back up again. If you take off your coat, you probably will still want your mittens. I've done lots of hiking in a short-sleeved shirt and mittens lol. I think I probably asked if they were hot when we were playing outside more than I asked if they were cold lol.

 

About the sensibleness - mine were pretty sensible. They'd be dead by now if they weren't. I relied on that, but I did keep in mind that new, unbelievably fun situations were not exactly conducive to thinking straight. Even for adults. I suspect there are people in town who are still talking about how my husband almost crashed the expensive ice boat somebody let him take for a spin.

 

Nan

[Pen]

If you don't like my advice, you don't have to research your way out of it.  Just make whatever decision you think is best. :)

 

By the way, if you have first degree frostbite (or frostnip, apparently) your skin will itch and get patchy.  Just having red skin isn't dangerous, or my nose would have fallen off years ago. ;)

 

Asking questions on here is one part of the research I am doing, along with other things. That is at least sometimes also the case with curriculum and other questions. This is a great resource, but I do not expect it to always have all the answers. 

 

You misunderstood though what I meant from what I had learned, and I am going to clarify it, not so much for you, but because it may be important someday for someone else to understand. You may be getting early physical warning signs of problems because you live in a cold climate and your body is used to it, and possibly because not only you yourself live in a cold climate, but it could relate also to previous generations.  In other words you may get signs like red skin, numbness and other responses, in a time frame where you can do do things to help you figure out how to say safe. This may also be true, perhaps even more so, for your daughter who lives in a cold climate and has at least you her mother (assuming bio-parent as one generation more than how ever many generations you have of cold climate background) to be passing down this sort of response, perhaps epigenetically. This sort of warning system is particularly pronounced in Eskimos, for example, and one aspect of it has been named Lewis's Hunters' response, apparently.

 

My son, who is not himself from a cold climate, and whose ancestry includes Hawaiians and other warm area peoples--may not show the same early warning systems that you can rely on, and believe are common to all people.

 

It might be helpful (not necessarily for you, but for someone reading this) to understand that other people may have different actual responses to the cold than what you are used to having. Similar to if a fair skinned child were to visit a sunny tropical island in the winter, she might sunburn badly at a point that people acclimatized to the sun, and perhaps having more olive skin from generations back would not even have the slightest bit of effect. So I might say based on my son, oh, don't worry you can stay out in the sun for hours and hours right through midday with no sunscreen or hat without burning, and for him that could be true, but it might or might not be true for your daughter or some other child. And if might depend on a whole lot of factors, since one fair child might tan easily and well, while another might not do so at all. Bright sun with water reflection might have a different effect than not, and the time of year and latitude might all be relevant. In the case of cold, genetics, hydration, vitamin status, age, cold experience, clothing, humidity and other factors all seem to play a part, so that one person may be able to get hypothermia swimming in Florida in summertime, while another is okay swimming in the North Sea.

 

There are also area differences in what help would be available in case of emergency--what for us has shut down all schools, has the roads an icy mess, and many services not operating, would be probably only a silly little nothing by Minnesota or even Massachusetts standards. But we do not have the infrastructure to deal with it, our buildings were not built for it...almost as if a place also has its own adaptations like epigenetics that play out generation to generation.

 

And so too what I just learned was that while there are some guidelines about cold exposure that can be generalized and what is safe or not, it is actually much more specific to an individual and to the exact circumstances than I would have previously realized.

 

Ideas about things like wrapping a plastic bag around a sock for added warmth, or pulling a thumb into mittens (if we had mittens), keeping moving, keeping gloves on, and so on, however, are quite useful.

[Pen]

Saddlemomma reminded me of something we told our children to do. And told them. And told them so often I can't believe I forgot to mention it. IF YOU ARE GETTING HOT, TAKE OFF YOUR SCARF. IF YOU ARE STILL HOT, UNZIP. IF YOU ARE STILL HOT, TAKE SOMETHING OFF. And put it in a dry, obvious place with the inside folded in so it stays dry. Don't put your mittens down - put them in your pocket or stuff them in your coat or something. If you've taken your coat off, remember to put it on again before you get cold (basically, as soon as you stop moving) because it will be cold inside and you have to be warm enough to warm the coat back up again. If you take off your coat, you probably will still want your mittens. I've done lots of hiking in a short-sleeved shirt and mittens lol. I think I probably asked if they were hot when we were playing outside more than I asked if they were cold lol.

 

About the sensibleness - mine were pretty sensible. They'd be dead by now if they weren't. I relied on that, but I did keep in mind that new, unbelievably fun situations were not exactly conducive to thinking straight. Even for adults. I suspect there are people in town who are still talking about how my husband almost crashed the expensive ice boat somebody let him take for a spin.

 

Nan

 

Thanks, I'll pass these ideas on to him. We don't have scarf or mittens, but the general idea of how to work the layers and to keep something on hands and to keep things dry, I take it are the gist here. Did I understand that right?

 

On keeping things dry I just discovered another which is that immediately after going out gloves (and other garments too) were warm and were melting the snow. By telling ds not to touch the snow for a few minutes until the outsides of the gloves cooled off, it helped keep them dry.

 

Finding the poly long underwear also made a huge difference. I am thinking that something like a pair of glove liners and sock liners might be all the other gear we would need to really help.

[Pen]

We live in northern ME and temps usually get in the negatives here for extended periods with the winds.  LAYERING is your friend - base layer, regular clothes with vest if possible (keeping your core, head, and extremities warm most important), then ski pants, jacket, hat, mittens (not knit and not gloves), heavy socks, and low temp-rated boots, balaclava, ski mask, or scarf if possible.

 

Hypothermia is caused by prolonged exposure and sweating in your clothes, then cooling.  With the layers, you can take off an outer layer when exerting your body, then, put that layer back on immediately when exertion ceases. This is hard for kids to remember (putting stuff back on).

 

 This would be the perfect time for a lesson on cold weather survival, how cold temps affect the body, how people in cold climates adapt, and some experiments outside.  Most importantly, you need to get the important outerwear or improvise with heavy LAYERING under the rain pants.  Limit time outside.  Drive them to sledding hill and give them 20 minutes of sledding; then drive them home for hot chocolate to restore heat.  Above all, have fun and enjoy the rare treat.

 

The sledding hill can only be walked to, but I get the idea and will follow to the extent what we have got fits it.

[Nan in Mass]

Thanks, I'll pass these ideas on to him. We don't have scarf or mittens, but the general idea of how to work the layers and to keep something on hands and to keep things dry, I take it are the gist here. Did I understand that right?

 

On keeping things dry I just discovered another which is that immediately after going out gloves (and other garments too) were warm and were melting the snow. By telling ds not to touch the snow for a few minutes until the outsides of the gloves cooled off, it helped keep them dry.

 

Finding the poly long underwear also made a huge difference. I am thinking that something like a pair of glove liners and sock liners might be all the other gear we would need to really help.

 

HA! Quote worked!

 

Yup.  The idea is NOT TO SWEAT IN YOUR CLOTHES because then they will be damp and you will get cold later, when you stop moving.  And not to put your mittens (or gloves) down because they might get lost.  (Ours were on a string that ran through the coat sleeves for anybody under about 10.  I had to have my mother put a string on mine when I had kids because I found that when I was dealing with their stringed mittens, I tended to pull mine off and drop them, forgetting that as an adult, I had no string and hadn't had one for years lol.)

 

The idea of not touching the snow until the outside of your clothing cools off is a good one.

 

Enjoy!

[stripe]

My son, who is not himself from a cold climate, and whose ancestry includes Hawaiians and other warm area peoples--may not show the same early warning systems that you can rely on, and believe are common to all people.

Definitely! My husband, my parents, my in laws, and I perceive weather (both cold and hot) and weather-safety in VERY different ways, due to where we have lived and our (range of) skin colors. Also knowing how to deal with extreme weather is not obvious, and often needs to be explicitly stated or shown by example (for example, drink lots of fluids or stay out of the sun at midday, and wear thin clothes when it's hot, or dress in layers, have adequate footwear, wear a hat, and stay dry when it's cold).

[Lucy the Valiant]

All my kids have mitten strings, too! :)

[duckens]

No real advice for an 11yo, but

 

 

I have had the most trouble with our 3 and 5 year old sneaking out or staying too long.

 

I lay a towel down on the floor bring in a 9x13 cake pan of snow for the kids to play with.  They get ONE pan/day.  (This gives the carpet a day to dry out in between). 

 

I'm not sure if this makes me a good mom or a bad mom.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Also, just a reminder:

When dropping someone off, MAKE SURE THEY GET INTO THE HOUSE.

 

http://gawker.com/college-student-could-lose-limbs-after-passing-out-on-f-1481095662

 

 

[Pen]

 

By the way, if you have first degree frostbite (or frostnip, apparently) your skin will itch and get patchy.  Just having red skin isn't dangerous, or my nose would have fallen off years ago. ;)

 

Hi, again, this is not for you, but for others who may also be reading this, to give another viewpoint:

 

 quote below, with the underscore added by me, is from Mayo clinic: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/frostbite/DS01164/DSECTION=symptoms

 

Frostbite occurs in several stages:

 

• Frostnip. The first stage of frostbite is frostnip — a mild form of frostbite in which your skin turns red and feels very cold. Continued exposure leads to prickling and numbness in the affected area. As your skin warms, you may feel pain and tingling. Frostnip doesn't permanently damage the skin.
• Superficial frostbite. The second stage of frostbite appears as reddened skin that turns white or very pale. The skin may remain soft, but some ice crystals may form in the tissue. Your skin may begin to feel deceptively warm — a sign of serious skin involvement. If you treat frostbite at this stage, the surface of your skin may appear mottled, blue or purple as it's warmed or thawed. With warming, you may notice stinging, burning and swelling. A fluid-filled blister may appear 24 to 36 hours after rewarming the skin.
• Severe or deep frostbite. As frostbite progresses, it affects all layers of the skin, including the tissues that lie below. You may experience deceptive numbness in which you lose all sensation of cold, pain or discomfort. Joints or muscles may no longer work. Large blisters form 24 to 48 hours after rewarming. Afterward, the area turns black and hard as the tissue dies.

[PeterPan]

bump