Saxon 5/4... but what for the early grades?

[Meg4]

For those of you that use Saxon 5/4 ...do you use Saxon for the early grades or something else? I like Saxon starting with 5/4...but I'm not too crazy about the lower levels. I just think there is an easier way to get the "job" done . I feel like there is a lot to of "extra" to dig through just to pick out the daily lesson. However, I have no idea what else I would use... Any suggestions? . Thanks

[FriedClams]

We use Horizon through 6th and then move to Saxob Algebra 1/2.

[Hunter]

Art Robinson recommends just teaching the math facts for the 4 processes with flash cards. I think doing more than that is better, but it's good to know that so many people have only done that and did fine. It takes all the pressure off.

 

There is no need for a curriculum. Some library books, some worksheets, some games, some flashcards, and some copywork are more than enough.

 

If you DO want curriculum, ANY will work.

[Ellie]

Rod and Staff.

[Spy Car]

Art Robinson recommends just teaching the math facts for the 4 processes with flash cards. I think doing more than that is better, but it's good to know that so many people have only done that and did fine. It takes all the pressure off.

Art Robinson also believes HIV does not cause AIDS. That radioactive waste is good for people and ought to be mixed in the concrete for foundations in American homes (and otherwise spread around on land and sea). He is a climate change denier. He promotes wacky cancer cures. And has signed the dissent from Darwinism petition.

 

The man is a loon. Why anyone would take his advice is beyond me. Especially when it is really bad advice, like teaching math using flash cards (which he says children should do on their own as parents spending time teaching their young children only undermines the children's self-responsibility).

 

Wacko.

 

Bill

[Shellydon]

We really like Math Mammoth.  Math-U-See might be a good choice for you if you just want them to learn their math facts really well.

[Hunter]

Art Robinson also believes HIV does not cause AIDS. That radioactive waste is good for people and ought to be mixed in the concrete for foundations in American homes (and otherwise spread around on land and sea). He is a climate change denier. He promotes wacky cancer cures. And has signed the dissent from Darwinism petition.

 

The man is a loon. Why anyone would take his advice is beyond me. Especially when it is really bad advice, like teaching math using flash cards (which he says children should do on their own as parents spending time teaching their young children only undermines the children's self-responsibility).

 

Wacko.

 

Bill

Bill, you KNOW he doesn't expect children to teach themselves before starting Saxon 54 and the reading list. The self-teaching starts AFTER the math facts and phonics is taught.

 

Wacko maybe, but we can learn from wacko. I'm wacko. I have the paperwork to prove it. :lol: That's doesn't mean I have NOTHING of value to say.

 

People have successfully used just flashcards and then started Saxon. Can most of us do better than that? Sure! And if we CAN, we should.

 

It's of value to KNOW that Saxon 54 can be started with very little prep, for many children, who are able to then successfully complete the program.

[Hunter]

We really like Math Mammoth. Math-U-See might be a good choice for you if you just want them to learn their math facts really well.

I took advantage of the MM 99 cent Currclick boo boo, and bought MM Blue (topical series) 1-3. The math facts practice looks like a really good prep for Saxon.

[Spy Car]

Bill, you KNOW he doesn't expect children to teach themselves before starting Saxon 54 and the reading list. The self-teaching starts AFTER the math facts and phonics is taught.

 

Wacko maybe, but we can learn from wacko. I'm wacko. I have the paperwork to prove it. :lol: That's doesn't mean I have NOTHING of value to say.

 

People have successfully used just flashcards and then started Saxon. Can most of us do better than that? Sure! And if we CAN, we should.

 

It's of value to KNOW that Saxon 54 can be started with very little prep, for many children, who are able to then successfully complete the program.

It is not of value to tell people that teaching math off flash cards is a good idea.

 

It is also not a good idea to suggest Art Robinson is a person people should look to as an authority on anything.

 

Why you'd reference this loon is beyond me.

 

Bill

[Hunter]

It is not of value to tell people that teaching math off flash cards is a good idea.

 

It is also not a good idea to suggest Art Robinson is a person people should look to as an authority on anything.

 

Why you'd reference this loon is beyond me.

 

Bill

Because he homeschooled his children in trying circumstances, and helped me triage, when I too was homeschooling in trying circumstances. Triage is important when things are bad.

 

Let's try not to hijack the thread though, as it's not a Robinson thread. I don't want the OP's question to get lost.

 

Bill, if a parent is going to use Saxon--I know you don't like Saxon--but if they ARE going to use it, what do YOU think is the least prep that needs to be completed to be successful in SAXON (not math in general).

[Spy Car]

Because he homeschooled his children in trying circumstances, and helped me triage, when I too was homeschooling in trying circumstances. Triage is important when things are bad.

 

Let's try not to hijack the thread though, as it's not a Robinson thread. I don't want the OP's question to get lost.

 

Bill, if a parent is going to use Saxon--I know you don't like Saxon--but if they ARE going to use it, what do YOU think is the least prep that needs to be completed to be successful in SAXON (not math in general).

Telling people "the least" they can do—and short-changing their children in the process—is not advice they would get from me. On the contrary, if parents are going to take the responsibility of their children's education into their own hands they ought to be aiming higher than that.

 

Bill

[Korrale]

Telling people "the least" they can do—and short-changing their children in the process—is not advice they would get from me. On the contrary, if parents are going to take the responsibility of their children's education into their own hands they ought to be aiming higher than that.

 

Bill

Robert Levy did so with his son. And his son went on to receive his double Major in Mechanical Engineering and Mathematics at 16 years of age from UH.

 

For us we are using a variety of things but Go Math! Is our spine until my son is old enough to start Saxon. It is a mixture of Singapore and Saxon.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

For those of you that use Saxon 5/4 ...do you use Saxon for the early grades or something else? I like Saxon starting with 5/4...but I'm not too crazy about the lower levels. I just think there is an easier way to get the "job" done . I feel like there is a lot to of "extra" to dig through just to pick out the daily lesson. However, I have no idea what else I would use... Any suggestions? . Thanks

 

We started with Saxon 6 years ago and are till at it (now in algebra 1 for 7th).  I've heard not-so-great things about the newer editions, but the originals (eBay, Amazon used) have been just fine.  Pounding through a page of problems took a while in the earlier grades, but not now, and I also really didn't appreciate the spiral approach until we'd been at it for a couple years and subsequent books reinforced concepts from previous books.  That seems to be Saxon's strongest point.

[LivingUnderGrace]

I have no idea what else I would use... Any suggestions? . Thanks

 

 

Abeka math workbooks at the elementary level have always worked very well for us.

[AK_Mom4]

For the early years, DD practiced all her math from $1 workbooks we bought at Walmart.  She was taught the math operations using manipulatives, but practiced using the little workbooks.  I also like the ones from MCP for practice.  Horizons early math is colorful and straight-forward.  Rod & Staff early books are less colorful and very clear.

 

Once we got to multiplication and division, DD12 liked Horizons best.  But she never did like flashcards... :thumbdown:

[LucyStoner]

You can use flashcards to teach (practice?) arithmetic.  That is not the same thing as teaching or learning math.  

[Hunter]

You can use flashcards to teach (practice?) arithmetic. That is not the same thing as teaching or learning math.

Some parents don't try to teach math, until they start 54. They just try to get the child ready for 54 as quickly and efficiently as possible.

 

The only prerequisites for 54 are basic math facts. And even those are extensively reviewed.

[edeemarie]

Check out McRuffy. They are spiral just like Saxon and I think I would be a great program to use before Saxon. Just make sure to test for placement before you decide on which Saxon book to use because McRuffy is a strong math program. http://www.mcruffy.com/index.html

[Another Lynn]

CLE (Christian Light Education) is another one that I think would be great to use before Saxon. (In fact I have two dc who have done that and two more in CLE right now). CLE is spiral like Saxon (some have called it "Saxon in a workbook.") You need the Teacher's Guide for the early levels, but by 200 most of the teaching is in the worktext. CLE's teaching guides are the only ones I've ever used that didn't seem like they were speaking a different language. They are easy to follow and easy to use.

[Walking-Iris]

For the OP---

 

I've really enjoyed using Saxon with my oldest. I didn't use it before 5/4 however. Miquon is my first choice in the early grades. SM would be good. RightStart (although it is scripted) is another good math program. I'm trying out MM  with my youngest. Montessori math activities are great fun. Games like you would find in Peggy Kaye's math book or Family Math. Online resources such as MEP. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Meg4]

Art Robinson recommends just teaching the math facts for the 4 processes with flash cards. I think doing more than that is better, but it's good to know that so many people have only done that and did fine. It takes all the pressure off.

 

There is no need for a curriculum. Some library books, some worksheets, some games, some flashcards, and some copywork are more than enough.

 

If you DO want curriculum, ANY will work.

Thanks Hunter! That is an interesting recommendation by Art Robinson.. That would definitely take some pressure off. May I ask what you think of the early levels of Saxon? They seem so different from those starting at 5/4 . Thanks. 

[Meg4]

It is not of value to tell people that teaching math off flash cards is a good idea.

 

It is also not a good idea to suggest Art Robinson is a person people should look to as an authority on anything.

 

Why you'd reference this loon is beyond me.

 

Bill

 

Bill, what are some strategies that you would suggest for teaching math facts without using flashcards. Thanks. 

[Meg4]

CLE (Christian Light Education) is another one that I think would be great to use before Saxon. (In fact I have two dc who have done that and two more in CLE right now). CLE is spiral like Saxon (some have called it "Saxon in a workbook.") You need the Teacher's Guide for the early levels, but by 200 most of the teaching is in the worktext. CLE's teaching guides are the only ones I've ever used that didn't seem like they were speaking a different language. They are easy to follow and easy to use.

Lynn,

 

After what level do you think its best to transition into Saxon? The teacher's guide sounds nice. 

[Spy Car]

Bill, what are some strategies that you would suggest for teaching math facts without using flashcards. Thanks.

I would start by scratching the term "math facts" from introductory math education, as I would place an emphasis on children understanding the values of numbers (including place values) in ways that encourage understanding of the system and using hands-on "concrete" tools to learn and explore with well prior to "memorizing facts."

 

This would include the use of Cuisenaire Rods and base-10 "flats" used in a Miquon-like way. The Education Unboxed videos give good examples of this. I would have a child use "math names" in this learning phase, so 365 is 3-Hundreds 6-Tens 5-Units (or 5-Ones) instead of three hundred sixty five.

 

I'd also use various methods to represent number values (to Ten) pictorially in ways that are eary to see as sets. For example on cards with 2 rows of red dots being 10, or using Tally Marks, or 5 yellow dots and 5 blue dots on a line bing 10 (emulating the AL Abacus).

 

And I would let a child play a lot with manipulatives like C Rods and the "flats" to find sums and differences, and to model 3 digit numbers. The AL abacus is good too.

 

And then play games of many types, including Go to the Dump, and addition and subtraction war. And introduce other operations like multiplication and division and fractions in a Miquon-like way.

 

And add puzzle-like problems that make children think (MEP is good here).

 

This is just scratching the surface. But the aim IMO should be making sure the child understands the concepts, and trying to teach in ways that build autonomy and competence. It is wonderful to watch young children problem solve rather than just being regurgitators of "facts."

 

The early years are a critical time for brain development. When children *think* they build the neural networks in their brain (literally). But when learning is passive, or only working areas of low cognitive challenge (like memorizing) the brain wiring doesn't happen the same way. Not to say that there isn't a time and place for "memory work" (there is), but memorizing "math facts" is not the way to learn mathematics. In fact, memorized facts can be counterproductive by giving an illusion of false competence (when I child may not understand the basics, but can give a "correct" answer.

 

Some will say, "Who cares? Give the memorized answer now, and worry about 'understanding' later." That's a bad bet IMO. Better to have some fun, makes sure they really understand what they are doing all along, and then work on automaticity and speed once understanding is squared away.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Bill

[boscopup]

FWIW, I know a family that used the Robinson method with their kids - just doing math facts until Saxon 5/4. They got up to calculus and had a lot of trouble with the last couple years of math. The kids are engineering minded - very smart men. But I have to wonder if this plan was not the best for them. (I know, Bill is jumping up and down, saying, "Of course it wasn't!" :lol:)

 

I personally wouldn't go that route. Like Bill, I prefer to teach number sense and place value, THEN memorize the facts. Fact memorization doesn't take long with my kids once I've done that. In fact, I didn't have to do anything to teach my oldest his addition/subtraction facts. He picked them up just working the problems in Math Mammoth. My middle son picked up a lot of his facts just playing with C-rods (he's very visual). Once he had a good sense of numbers and place value, I started using speed drills and flash cards with him. He is rock solid in his facts now, but he also knows how to break numbers apart as needed for mental arithmetic. Learning addition/subtraction with regrouping was a breeze because he understood place value and how to break apart numbers so well. I literally spent 3 days teaching him subtraction with regrouping, and he has it down cold. He's only 1st grade. Why just stop at fact memorization? These young kids are capable of so much more.

 

And I'm not suggesting teaching your first grader regrouping if they're not ready for it. ;) I'm just saying that there is more to elementary math than memorizing facts, and young kids are capable of doing more than that. While young kids are sponges for facts and such, they ALSO can learn some basic critical thinking. You don't have to wait until the logic stage to start things like Socratic questioning, playing strategy games, and other such things that encourage critical thinking (not "critical thinking" or "logic" workbooks... just questioning, explaining, strategizing). And I think kids need to start young doing these things, so they won't be 40 years old and believing every FB meme that's posted. :lol:

[Walking-Iris]

 

 

I prefer to teach number sense and place value, THEN memorize the facts. Fact memorization doesn't take long with my kids once I've done that. In fact, I didn't have to do anything to teach my oldest his addition/subtraction facts. He picked them up just working the problems in Math Mammoth. My middle son picked up a lot of his facts just playing with C-rods (he's very visual). Once he had a good sense of numbers and place value, I started using speed drills and flash cards with him. He is rock solid in his facts now, but he also knows how to break numbers apart as needed for mental arithmetic. Learning addition/subtraction with regrouping was a breeze because he understood place value and how to break apart numbers so well. I literally spent 3 days teaching him subtraction with regrouping, and he has it down cold. He's only 1st grade. Why just stop at fact memorization? These young kids are capable of so much more.

 

And I'm not suggesting teaching your first grader regrouping if they're not ready for it. ;) I'm just saying that there is more to elementary math than memorizing facts, and young kids are capable of doing more than that. While young kids are sponges for facts and such, they ALSO can learn some basic critical thinking. You don't have to wait until the logic stage to start things like Socratic questioning, playing strategy games, and other such things that encourage critical thinking (not "critical thinking" or "logic" workbooks... just questioning, explaining, strategizing). And I think kids need to start young doing these things, so they won't be 40 years old and believing every FB meme that's posted. :lol:

 

I agree. In those early years my oldest learned all of his 'facts" for four operations with lots of practice, both hands-on and pencil and paper math. We actually tossed all our flash card sets because they were never used and unnecessary. 

 

In Saxon 5/4 there are daily facts practice sheets. My ds did them mainly as an exercise in speed. He enjoyed challenging himself to beat his time. Timed facts practice sounds like torture to me and it's something I personally would never do. We completely skip the practice sheets in 6/5.

 

I feel that a young child needs to understand the why of math before they are expected to memorize math. Rote memorization may be okay for some, but I know from my own personal experiences in school that it didn't do any good with me.

 

I had severe math anxiety until mid-high school. I can still feel physically sick when I remember my 3rd grade teacher putting us in a circle around her and drilling us on multiplication facts. If any one of us hesitated to think and didn't answer fast enough she was disappointed and shaming. "No counting in your heads!!" At no time can I ever remember anyone actually explaining why that's the answer. (I was a kid who always wanted to know why and what for...still that way). I also remember getting in trouble by the same teacher for drawing arrays on paper to figure out the answer. (I didn't even know the sequence of dots I was drawing were arrays, I was just full of anxiety and desperate for any way to get through the torture., but instead I came away with the guilty feeling that I was cheating) My whole early education was facts memorizing---good. Using different strategies to understand it---bad. 

 

When I got older I started self educating to get through high school algebra. But it's a rare teen who has that level of motivation.

 

Not saying parents who use flash cards and rote memorization are going to shame their child. BUT I took a different route. I try at all costs to allow my children to understand the why in as many ways as possible and let the memorization come naturally. Math anxiety can rear it's head in even the most loving of environments and good intentions, and it can be very hard to remedy.  I find that allowing for understanding the underlying concepts over memorization help. 

 

[wapiti]

Bill, what are some strategies that you would suggest for teaching math facts without using flashcards. Thanks. 

 

To add to what Bill said, I'd think of this as "learning" math facts rather than memorizing them.  I don't have specific recommendations - lots of manipulatives and games come to mind.  I just thought it worth pointing out that often, when kids understand the concepts well, they learn the facts through repeated calculation.  There may be no need to memorize anything.

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti