NPR interview about SAT essay

[flyingiguana]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=240954501&sc=tw&cc=share

 

"Want to do well on the essay portion of the SAT? Just make it up! Or at least that's one professor's view. Host Scott Simon speaks to English professor Anne Ruggles Gere of the University of Michigan, who says that the college entrance exam is turning out a generation of bad writers who are fast and loose with the facts."

[8filltheheart]

Amen. Funnily, I have "taught" my kids to reply with fictionalized "fact." They have made up historical documents, myths, books, etc and spewed nonsense. It most definitely is not quality writing.

 

IMHO any time the focus is teaching students to the test, students lose.

[Bootsie]

Last year I had a college student who had a "quote" in a paper she turned in.  When I asked for the source of the quote, her response was, "Oh, you mean it needs not come from a real place.  I thought I was just supposed to add quotes to the important facts I made up."  She had been trained how to write a good SAT essay!

[regentrude]

Amen. Funnily, I have "taught" my kids to reply with factionalized "fact." They have made up historical documents, myths, books, etc and spewed nonsense. It most definitely is not quality writing.

 

Agree. The entire SAT essay is such a highly artificial, unrealistic assignment: making up my mind about an issue I may never have given any thought and cranking out a persuasive essay supported with quotes and facts, without the opportunity to consult sources, all in 25 minutes? I sure hope my kids give issues some more thought and research before they go off spouting opinions and persuading others to believe them.

So, if that is the game, you play the game. That means, if need be, inventing, and quoting, an obscure foreign author or historic figure. I have encouraged DD to do this, and I do not feel the slightest qualms about it. It is unrealistic to expect students to have a random assortment of quotes and examples for all situations stuffed into their head that they can pull out at a moment's notice to support any random point of view on any random issue. If this is what they test, this is what they get.

 

I do not believe that performing well on the SAT essay is necessarily an indication of actual writing ability, although I believe that performing very poorly does indicate an insufficient preparation for college level writing, because correct language mechanics and clear organization should be automatic even on the most idiotic topic.

[MBM]

Nobody takes the SAT essay seriously at my son's high school. The college counselors have mentioned that many colleges don't use it when selecting students. They should just get rid of it already.

 

[snowbeltmom]

Nobody takes the SAT essay seriously at my son's high school. The college counselors have mentioned that many colleges don't use it when selecting students. They should just get rid of it already.

Does anyone have a list of which colleges do not use the writing section? 

[ZooRho]

Does anyone have a list of which colleges do not use the writing section? 

I don't think many of them give weight to it.  there would be too many to list.

 

My son is looking at several colleges in NC, VA and PA. I don't think any of them say you have to have it. Most also just give ranges of the SAT 2 score.  I did actually see ONE that listed the total score range.

 

Most also have a 50% range, meaning 50% of the students have this score.  as the lady said meaning 24% have LOWER than that and 25% have HIGHER than that.  so it is a range not a set in stone score. 

[MBM]

Does anyone have a list of which colleges do not use the writing section? 

 

In November we will have three meetings with high school college counselors and I can ask one of them. This school has about 500 colleges and universities that visit annually, so the counselors have had many conversations with them.

[snowbeltmom]

In November we will have three meetings with high school college counselors and I can ask one of them. This school has about 500 colleges and universities that visit annually, so the counselors have had many conversations with them.

I would be very interested to hear what they have to say. 

[BakersDozen]

Lol, the last practice essay my dd took had a quote that was so good I went to look it up...didn't find it as she had made it up!  She doesn't like doing that yet I told her just for the SAT and never again.

[regentrude]

Most also just give ranges of the SAT 2 score.  I did actually see ONE that listed the total score range.

 

Are you sure about this? I have only come across data that list the SAT reasoning test scores. I have never seen any school report a range for the SAT2 scores, which woudl be subject specific.

[8filltheheart]

Just thought I'd share this info in case there were people who were unaware of just how "no single answer" there is for how some schools use scores. This is from GA Tech's website. I don't recall other schools cross test subscoring, but it really works to my ds's benefit since his ACT math score is higher than his SAT and his SAT English higher than his ACT.

 

 

Evaluating your Test Scores

We use all three portions of the SAT and/or the three equivalent parts of the ACT, as outlined below. We do not use the ACT Composite score nor the Science or Reading score.

SAT Critical Reading = ACT English

SAT Math = ACT Math

SAT Writing = ACT Combined English/Writing

Only your highest section scores from either test will be viewed in the evaluation process. Additionally, your highest combination of scores may come from tests taken on different dates. For example, your high test scores may include SAT Critical Reading from March, ACT Math from October and ACT Combined English/Writing from December. Each time you submit new scores to us, we will update your record with your highest scores.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I took the test again in '08, just for street cred in my business, and, to see what happened, I did indeed make up the essay on the fly.  It's hard to do. The added mental stress of trying to keep a story line straight is not something I'd wish on the average Junior.  Yes, the essay is ridiculous, and it will probably change or go away, but there are sensible ways to prep for it.

[Barb_]

An article from Atlantic 2005: Would Shakespeare Get Into Swarthmore?

 

How several well-known writers (and the Unabomber) would fare on the new SAT

 

I've held on to the link for years so that each time one of my teens begins to freak out over the writing section, I can use it to remind her that the SAT doesn't test for excellent writing but fast bs on the fly

 

http://m.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2004/03/katzman.htm

[ZooRho]

Are you sure about this? I have only come across data that list the SAT reasoning test scores. I have never seen any school report a range for the SAT2 scores, which woudl be subject specific.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I  meant the two score for the SAT not an SAT 2 test.

 

The two score meaning Math and reading.  not the writing, (and I am sure my names are wrong too many changes over the years for me.).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Just thought I'd share this info in case there were people who were unaware of just how "no single answer" there is for how some schools use scores. This is from GA Tech's website. I don't recall other schools cross test subscoring, but it really works to my ds's benefit since his ACT math score is higher than his SAT and his SAT English higher than his ACT.

 

 

Evaluating your Test Scores

We use all three portions of the SAT and/or the three equivalent parts of the ACT, as outlined below. We do not use the ACT Composite score nor the Science or Reading score.

SAT Critical Reading = ACT English

SAT Math = ACT Math

SAT Writing = ACT Combined English/Writing

Only your highest section scores from either test will be viewed in the evaluation process. Additionally, your highest combination of scores may come from tests taken on different dates. For example, your high test scores may include SAT Critical Reading from March, ACT Math from October and ACT Combined English/Writing from December. Each time you submit new scores to us, we will update your record with your highest scores.

 

This is similar to the way that admissions at the Naval Academy (though a more detailed description).

 

I have not seen an indication that the writing section is considered much by USNA.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

In case folks haven't seen this older thread, there are some good suggestions on how to use a small file of examples as background for these extemporaneous essay prompts.  See posts 23 and 39.

 

It's a little bit like having a collection of notes about classic works when one sits down to take the AP English Lit exam. They may ask about a different topic than what you'd already considered, but having refreshed your memory about the works you've read makes you more prepared to use them in an essay as you make new connections.

 

[Which reminds me that my sons are now of an age that they do need to start collecting some of these examples.]

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

It's a little bit like having a collection of notes about classic works when one sits down to take the AP English Lit exam. They may ask about a different topic than what you'd already considered, but having refreshed your memory about the works you've read makes you more prepared to use them in an essay as you make new connections.

 

Yup.  That's very similar to the way I prep kids.  Get the McGraw Hill SAT guide and look at p.444.  It's the best way I've found to prep for the essay.

[Corraleno]

Even colleges that don't "count" the SAT essay score for admissions may use it "as a validity check on the admissions essay." That's a line from the SAT/ACT section of the common data set, and I've seen quite a few colleges that have checked that box.

[flyingiguana]

This is similar to the way that admissions at the Naval Academy (though a more detailed description).

 

I have not seen an indication that the writing section is considered much by USNA.

 

I haven't seen much indication of this from the colleges my kids have applied to either -- but they haven't been applying to super selective schools or big public universities.

 

I think a lot of schools are just asking for the writing score because they can -- it's free for them.  It's only the student who has to pay for it.

 

My guess is that some schools are doing some kind of internal check against the writing score -- correlating how well that score predicts how the students will do in their later writing courses.  Eventually, the big discrepancy will come out.  They'll discover that a high SAT writing score is not predictive of much of anything.

 

And then the College Board will "re-vamp" the writing test.

 

Not that it will actually change anything, because the constraints will still be there:  limited amount of time composing a piece about something the student doesn't know much about and doesn't care about, being scored by people who can't be paid enough to spend the time actually reading.

 

The teaching of writing is not something that can be done effectively for maximum profit, and the SAT writing test only underscores that fact.

 

The test is a joke, and is likely making the job of English professors a whole lot harder, as they have to unteach all the "skills" these kids learned in hopes of making a good score on the SAT/ACT writing tests.  A lot of these kids never will unlearn them, as they were taught during their formative years, for a test that stressed a lot of them out.  Learning under pressure sticks.

[regentrude]

The test is a joke, and is likely making the job of English professors a whole lot harder, as they have to unteach all the "skills" these kids learned in hopes of making a good score on the SAT/ACT writing tests. 

I am not so sure about this, because the number one complaint I hear from my English colleagues is that the students are lacking basic language mechanics and reading comprehension. They would be happy if students could write in grammatically and semantically correct sentences and understand college level texts.

I doubt it's the students with good scores on the SAT writing section who pose the problem. It's those who are not even prepared for that kind of writing.

I am not so sure about this, because the number one complaint I hear from my English colleagues is that the students are lacking basic language mechanics and reading comprehension. They would be happy if students could write in grammatically and semantically correct sentences and understand college level texts.

I doubt it's the students with good scores on the SAT writing section who pose the problem. It's those who are not even prepared for that kind of writing.

 

I'm curious why there is such a disconnect between professors of freshmen and the admissions department.  If, say, Freshman comp. requires skills x,y, and z as prereqs, why isn't the admissions department screening for these skills, one way or another?

[regentrude]

I'm curious why there is such a disconnect between professors of freshmen and the admissions department.  If, say, Freshman comp. requires skills x,y, and z as prereqs, why isn't the admissions department screening for these skills, one way or another?

 

How would the admissions department be able to screen students, other than by looking at their standardized test scores and high school transcripts?

It would require individual tests for each applicant. Not feasible, not even the Ivies do that.

In math, all incoming freshmen must take a placement test. We have students who come with calculus on their high school transcript but place into college algebra which is a remedial course and does not give credit towards most of the majors we offer. How is the admissions department supposed to obtain this information beforehand?

How would the admissions department be able to screen students, other than by looking at their standardized test scores and high school transcripts?

It would require individual tests for each applicant. Not feasible, not even the Ivies do that.

In math, all incoming freshmen must take a placement test. We have students who come with calculus on their high school transcript but place into college algebra which is a remedial course and does not give credit towards most of the majors we offer. How is the admissions department supposed to obtain this information beforehand?

 

Is it not the job of the admissions department to fill the incoming class with candidates who are qualified to succeed at that particular school?

 

If a freshman comp prof is consistently getting freshman who can't write and she doesn't talk the ad admissions department to see if the poor writers have low SAT writing scores or incoherent essays, why should she expect anything to change? 

[regentrude]

Is it not the job of the admissions department to fill the incoming class with candidates who are qualified to succeed at that particular school?

 

If a freshman comp prof is consistently getting freshman who can't write and she doesn't talk the ad admissions department to see if the poor writers have low SAT writing scores or incoherent essays, why should she expect anything to change? 

 

Almost all our applicants take the ACT. No essay.

Like most schools, ours does not look at the writing scores for the (very few students) who do submit SAT scores.

 

1. Our school, like most schools, does not look at the writing scores for students who submit SAT scores.

2.  Almost all our applicants take the ACT. No essay.

 

Seems like admissions is sending a clear signal to applicants: "Our school doesn't care about writing".

[regentrude]

Seems like admissions is sending a clear signal to applicants: "Our school doesn't care about writing".

 

No. This is par for the course at most schools I have looked at.

It can also mean that they do not consider the writing portion of the SAT a meaningful predictor of success in college writing. I certainly don't think it is a very good indicator of anything.

 

(And at our particular school, it would be the math section that predicts college success)

 

No. This is par for the course at most schools I have looked at.

It can also mean that they do not consider the writing portion of the SAT a meaningful predictor of success in college writing. I certainly don't think it is a very good indicator of anything.

 

 

Didn't you just write "I doubt it's the students with good scores on the SAT writing section who pose the problem."?

[regentrude]

Didn't you just write "I doubt it's the students with good scores on the SAT writing section who pose the problem."?

 

I meant that as a general statement, not referring to our particular school, because I do not believe that our students are in any way untypical with respect to their writing abilities - my English colleagues say their percentages of non-proficient students match the data from other universities.

Referring to my particular school, I could have written "the students who would have received good scores on the writing section..."(had they taken it).

 

Doing well on the SAT or similar essay (or being able to do so, whether the student actually takes the test or not) means that students have basic writing mechanics. My post was in response to this:

 

 

 

The test is a joke, and is likely making the job of English professors a whole lot harder, as they have to unteach all the "skills" these kids learned in hopes of making a good score on the SAT/ACT writing tests.

 

which I do not think is a big issue because the main problems are with students who would NOT have to ability to write a good essay (irrespective of whether they actually take the test or not ). Those who can, or could (if they were taking the test) are not the problem.

[flyingiguana]

Doing well on the SAT or similar essay (or being able to do so, whether the student actually takes the test or not) means that students have basic writing mechanics.

 

 

 

which I do not think is a big issue because the main problems are with students who would NOT have to ability to write a good essay (irrespective of whether they actually take the test or not ). Those who can, or could (if they were taking the test) are not the problem.

If you don't actually have the score for the student, then this statement doesn't make much sense. If the SAT scores are fairly random (which I suspect they are, given the scores I've seen for students who CAN write), then you really can't predict how a student WOULD have scored on the test IF they had taken it just based on their writing ability as you see it.

 

The point I'm making is that it's more than possible for a student who writes exceptionally well (both mechanics and thoughts) to do kind of bad on the ACT/SAT writing test. I've seen it happen.

 

This is why the test is a joke.

[regentrude]

The point I'm making is that it's more than possible for a student who writes exceptionally well (both mechanics and thoughts) to do kind of bad on the ACT/SAT writing test. I've seen it happen.

 

Oh, I completely agree!

 

I did not mean that I can predict an essay scores based on writing ability - I was making the reverse argument that a student who can hack the essay must possess at least some basic writing ability.

All I meant was that a student who can pull off a good SAT essay is the least of the worries for the English instructor... he has at least the ability to use English in a somewhat coherent way.