MCT scope and sequence

[Nicholas_mom]

Bill --- My ds is like yours, just once is enough.  They get it.  Done. Let's move on. 

 

MCT is sooooo written for him, its uncanny.

 

I thought I wasn't doing enough until I met Mr. MCT and heard him lecture on writing.  He makes it sounds so easy and for my child, it is.

[Spy Car]

Thanks for noting this. I do think it is a slightly different discussion when you are using a program for after schooling vs. homeschooling.

I agree, and it's precisely why I mentioned it.

 

Your child is hopefully getting a lot more instruction at school than just mechanics. I would expect actual writing instruction as well. :) Which may make it harder to see the problems some are talking about. Just a thought.

They certainly have language arts at my son's school. The writing (and reading) program is actually quite strong. The formal grammar instruction is scatter-shot. It gets covered (sort of) but desn't compare to MCT. There is nothing approaching MCTs poetics. Vocabulary is not bad, but again bested my MCT. This years teacher (especially) will work on "idioms" with a special intensity.

 

But a good deal of LA in schools is copy-editing and mechanics. How to format a letter, or find the missing comma. "Schooly" stuff. MCT does not take this approach. Some of the underlying skills and ideas that making proper formatting and punctuation obvious are covered in MCT, but it is not a "copy-editing" style of instruction.

 

I doubt that it will ever has this sort of component, although I have no doubt that if Mr Thompson chose to he could bring his "magic" to what is usually a rather dry endevour.

 

If people feel the need for mechanics books (and I do not doubt many will) there are many options available. MCT was written to fill the niche of what IS NOT offered in typical schools, not to replicate it. I am so appreciative of what MCT is (nothing like it that I've ever seen), and not concerned with what it's not. Mechanics books abound.

 

I really like the first two levels. Love the grammar approach and the stories, think Paragraph Town is genius. But Im not sure about the upper levels.

We are in Town. Beyond that I have high-hopes, but no first-hand experience.

 

I agree with 8 about the essay examples. I think that essay is only "good" if the writer is an actual eighth grader, as the page indicates. ;) Most of the paper is quotes with very little fleshing out of the points. I had thought originally MCT was a high school teacher, but I'm fairly certain this would not be an excellent example of a high school essay for a gifted student, unless gifted no longer means what I think it does.

If I was grading this an an 8th Grade essay, I'd give it an A and write, Outstanding!

 

I would also use the red pen to mark-out the indents, and write a note that quotes should not be used to carry the load of a writer's point, and that future papers could be improved on that point.

 

It is a pretty cogent essay overall.

 

Bill

[Crimson Wife]

But a good deal of LA in schools is copy-editing and mechanics. How to format a letter, or find the missing comma. "Schooly" stuff. MCT does not take this approach. Some of the underlying skills and ideas that making proper formatting and punctuation obvious are covered in MCT, but it is not a "copy-editing" style of instruction.

 

I doubt that it will ever has this sort of component, although I have no doubt that if Mr Thompson chose to he could bring his "magic" to what is usually a rather dry endevour.

 

If people feel the need for mechanics books (and I do not doubt many will) there are many options available. MCT was written to fill the niche of what IS NOT offered in typical schools, not to replicate it. I am so appreciative of what MCT is (nothing like it that I've ever seen), and not concerned with what it's not. Mechanics books abound.

Agreed, except that if a Language Arts program is $205, it should really be complete in and of itself. I understand not including spelling, but a grammar program that costs as much as MCT does should not require the teacher to shell out additional money for a mechanics book.

[Spy Car]

Agreed, except that if a Language Arts program is $205, it should really be complete in and of itself. I understand not including spelling, but a grammar program that costs as much as MCT does should not require the teacher to shell out additional money for a mechanics book.

We each have to make judgements about the percieved value we derive from our curriculm purchases.

 

In my case I feel it is money very well spent. I can't remember the exact amount of the last purchase, but it was not as high as the figures you cite (but we did buyTown just before the Ceasar's English Calssical Edition came out, so that might explain it?)

 

For us, MCT fills the big missing niche. If the price were lower I would not complain, but I feel we get out monies worth. YMMV.

 

Bill

[8filltheheart]

If I was grading this an an 8th Grade essay, I'd give it an A and write, Outstanding!

 

I would also use the red pen to mark-out the indents, and write a note that quotes should not be used to carry the load of a writer's point, and that future papers could be improved on that point.

 

It is a pretty cogent essay overall.

 

Bill

 

Unfortunately they are written in very similar manner through all three levels.   The quotes always dominate the writing and overpower the student's position.

 

As a teaching example for what students might do and what should be avoided, it works.  But as the teaching samples for how essays should be written, which is what they are, they don't.  (in AAW, he does show how to edit papers......these errors are NEVER identified as errors!)

 

FWIW, I wouldn't accept the essay from my 8th graders as written.  During their first yrs worth of essays, you expect them to not have mastered everything.   You pick the big picture issues for them to master and then narrow in on the finer details as they progress.  The big picture issue that should be mastered is argument with limited quotation and  correct paraphrasing.   When you use teaching materials that are not being edited to demonstrate common errors of students like the huge ones he incorporates into every essay, that is a serious issue.   That is the big picture that you want them to accomplish.   His essays are written around quotes, not essays with supporting evidence.   Huge difference and definitely not "outstanding."   They show the errors of beginners and yet they are presented as correct form.  

 

FWIW, my kids would have to rewrite that paper eliminating the block quotes and strengthening their own argument.   It isn't as simple as just getting rid of the indent long term.   Accepting that form long term means their arguments are weak, not "cogent."

[Spy Car]

Unfortunately they are written in very similar manner through all three levels. The quotes always dominate the writing and overpower the student's position.

 

As a teaching example for what students might do and what should be avoided, it works. But as the teaching samples for how essays should be written, which is what they are, they don't. (in AAW, he does show how to edit papers......these errors are NEVER identified as errors!)

 

FWIW, I wouldn't accept the essay from my 8th graders as written. During their first yrs worth of essays, you expect them to not have mastered everything. You pick the big picture issues for them to master and then narrow in on the finer details as they progress. The big picture issue that should be mastered is argument with limited quotation and correct paraphrasing. When you use teaching materials that are not being edited to demonstrate common errors of students like the huge ones he incorporates into every essay, that is a serious issue. That is the big picture that you want them to accomplish. His essays are written around quotes, not essays with supporting evidence. Huge difference and definitely not "outstanding." They show the errors of beginners and yet they are presented as correct form.

 

FWIW, my kids would have to rewrite that paper eliminating the block quotes and strengthening their own argument. It isn't as simple as just getting rid of the indent long term. Accepting that form long term means their arguments are weak, not "cogent."

You feel more harshly about this essay than I do. I think the paper-writer (is it MCT himself?) makes a case that is supported with quotes. I think you are being a little unfair in your characterization. I do not like the "indents," but do not feel the writer failed to follow up quotes with lines of arguementation, or failed to assert a point of view prior to quoting.

 

I will be mindful of your criticisms, and I thought—am I right about this?—that MCT responded that he might need to reconsider some of the lessons based on criticisms that emanated with you. Is that right, or am I mistaken?

 

Bill

[8filltheheart]

You feel more harshly about this essay than I do. I think the paper-writer (is it MCT himself?) makes a case that is supported with quotes. I think you are being a little unfair in your characterization. I do not like the "indents," but do not feel the writer failed to follow up quotes with lines of arguementation, or failed to assert a point of view prior to quoting.

 

I will be mindful of your criticisms, and I thought—am I right about this?—that MCT responded that he might need to reconsider some of the lessons based on criticisms that emanated with you. Is that right, or am I mistaken?

 

Bill

I honestly don't remember if he did or not. He lost me completely at the idea that there is nothing wrong with composing a paragraph with a single introductory sentence followed by a block quote and nothing else. He should know better (actually I am sure that he does.)

 

Fwiw, you are seeing this from a completely different perspective than me on 2 fronts.

 

One, I am not basing my opinion solely on that single essay, but on three of his consecutive level textbooks. That essay just happens to be easy to link bc it is there. He obviously believes it is a good representation of what he is teaching children since 3 yrs later it is still there. (I have to agree with Penelope, though, in that I question if he has taught high school level. There is something about his program that makes me feel like no, but I may be completely wrong about that.)

 

Two, I know what gifted students are capable of writing in 8th grade. I read my dd's work last yr and her analysis of the works she read were far more complex. (An avg 8th grader, that is a different conversation. Goodness, there are high school students that never master coherent writing at all.) But MCT is geared toward gifted students and since I have been teaching a child with very strong language skills, I have no problem asserting that they are capable of more. Last yr as an 8th grader, her analysis was as complex and well written as my 11th grader's work.....and while he is far more gifted in math/science than language, he is an excellent writer as well (with the exception of spelling ;) )

[Spy Car]

I honestly don't remember if he did or not. He lost me completely at the idea that there is nothing wrong with composing a paragraph with a single introductory sentence followed by a block quote and nothing else. He should know better (actually I am sure that he does.)

I thought, but my memory may be faulty and/or I may be engaging in "wish fulfillment," but I thought he took some of your points, and was considering making revisions. Maybe you could hector him so we might benefit? :D

 

Fwiw, you are seeing this from a completely different perspective than me on 2 fronts.

 

One, I am not basing my opinion solely on that single essay, but on three of his consecutive level textbooks. That essay just happens to be easy to link bc it is there. He obviously believes it is a good representation of what he is teaching children since 3 yrs later it is still there. (I have to agree with Penelope, though, in that I question if he has taught high school level. There is something about his program that makes me feel like no, but I may be completely wrong about that.)

I obviously can't comment on essays I have not read. But you were more critical of the one posted than I would have been, a situation that is unusual (for me) as I tend to feel I'm pretty critical.

 

Two, I know what gifted students are capable of writing in 8th grade. I read my dd's work last yr and her analysis of the works she read were far more complex. (An avg 8th grader, that is a different conversation. Goodness, there are high school students that never master coherent writing at all.) But MCT is geared toward gifted students and since I have been teaching a child with very strong language skills, I have no problem asserting that they are capable of more. Last yr as an 8th grader, her analysis was as complex and well written as my 11th grader's work.....and while he is far more gifted in math/science than language, he is an excellent writer as well (with the exception of spelling ;) )

Should you ever feel the inclined to post examples of outstanding essays written by young people, your children or others, I would be most appreciative. I love reading good essay examples, but have very few good resources for such things. Not a "trap," I promise.

 

Bill (who is glad that there are people like you who care about good writing)

[8filltheheart]

Should you ever feel the inclined to post examples of outstanding essays written by young people, your children or others, I would be most appreciative. I love reading good essay examples, but have very few good resources for such things. Not a "trap," I promise.

 

Bill (who is glad that there are people like you who care about good writing)

Here is a link to to the very first essay my dd ever wrote. She is a very private person and when I have asked her to let me post others, she has not wanted me to. And the difference between her 11-12 yr old writing and 13-14 yr old writing is dramatic in both insight and maturity of style.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/228187-my-6th-grade-dds-very-first-essay/

 

Just recognize that this example is full of weaknesses and errors, but she had only ever done report type writing prior to this example. She had never written any type of essay or used any supporting quotes before.

[Spy Car]

Here is a link to to the very first essay my dd ever wrote. She is a very private person and when I have asked her to let me post others, she has not wanted me to. And the difference between her 11-12 yr old writing and 13-14 yr old writing is dramatic in both insight and maturity of style.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/228187-my-6th-grade-dds-very-first-essay/

 

Just recognize that this example is full of weaknesses and errors, but she had only ever done report type writing prior to this example. She had never written any type of essay or used any supporting quotes before.

That is a very fine first essay. Well done!

 

Should she ever agree to letting you post some of her more mature works, I would love to read some.

 

Thank you :)

 

Bill

[thebacabunch]

MCT is written for the gifted student.  Many many gifted students do not need intensive mechanics study of grammar and writing.  The ability to form good sentences is instinctive for many gifted students who pick up the mechanics of good writing from reading good literature and studying good essays.  That is why these students are considered gifted.  That is the population that MCT is writing for.  In jr high and high school I was in the honors/gifted program and very little of our time was spent on mechanics or even the study of grammar.  We would write essays that would be marked with the corrections that needed to be made.  Errors were noted and synthesized.  Writing improved.  The bulk of our time was spent memorizing Latin and Greek roots, reading and discussing the classics and poetry, and writing not creatively but academically.  Sound familiar? If you have used MCT it will.  When I discovered MCT I felt like I found a long lost friend.  Did the lack of intensive grammar study become a stumbling block in college?  Not at all.  I always got A's in college English.  It was not a struggle. 

 

I will say, though I embrace all of the upper level books with adoration,   I do not use his Advanced Academic Writing.  Writing is at the very core of academic study and have found the AAW to be lacking.  I was actually taught more in the style of SWB and love WWS. 

 

My 7th grader has been doing WWW for a few short weeks and her everyday vocabulary is now sprinkled with words straight from the text and she doesn't even realize it.  :laugh:

[Roadrunner]

MCT is written for the gifted student. Many many gifted students do not need intensive mechanics study of grammar and writing. h:

 

Intensive mechanics study? There isn't ANY in the island level. Why does this have to be an all or nothing (either intensive or none at all)?

I began using MCT when my son was seven. Maybe a middle schooler doesn't need anymore mechanics instruction (you mentioned a seventh grader), but when you are just starting out, somebody has to teach you. Maybe MCT assumes it was covered in first and second grades? Most likely he knows that his gifted elementary students are learning it anyway in the classroom.

We found Killgallon's approach perfect - teach a phrase, point out it needs commas, move on.

 

Again I am speaking about the Island level. I have no idea what's in the upper level books.

[Crimson Wife]

Intensive mechanics study? There isn't ANY in the island level. Why does this have to be an all or nothing (either intensive or none at all)?

I began using MCT when my son was seven. Maybe a middle schooler doesn't need anymore mechanics instruction (you mentioned a seventh grader), but when you are just starting out, somebody has to teach you. Maybe MCT assumes it was covered in first and second grades? Most likely he knows that his gifted elementary students are learning it anyway in the classroom.

Yes, it's clear to me that MCT wrote his books assuming that they would supplement classroom instruction (which does tend to be heavy on mechanics). I just wish that he either (A) reduced the cost of the package so that it wouldn't be so annoying to have to buy a mechanics supplement or ( B ) revised his grammar & practice books to cover mechanics while keeping the cost the same.

[Spy Car]

Yes, it's clear to me that MCT wrote his books assuming that they would supplement classroom instruction (which does tend to be heavy on mechanics). I just wish that he either (A) reduced the cost of the package so that it wouldn't be so annoying to have to buy a mechanics supplement or ( B ) revised his grammar & practice books to cover mechanics while keeping the cost the same.

Who doesn't wish every curiculm provider wouldn't sell their materials at reduced prices?

 

My feeling is that MCT helps me provide the sort of education in my home that I might expect (only) at an elite private school, and is of a style that both my child and I find joyful and effective.

 

The yearly cost of MCT materials is about the cost of one day's tuition at one of those schools. So I try to keep a little perspective. And for me the materials are are value. Would I be happier if they cost less? Sure. But these are top notch materials I'm more than willing to pay for.

 

Bill

[Crimson Wife]

Who doesn't wish every curiculm provider wouldn't sell their materials at reduced prices?

 

My feeling is that MCT helps me provide the sort of education in my home that I might expect (only) at an elite private school, and is of a style that both my child and I find joyful and effective.

 

The yearly cost of MCT materials is about the cost of one day's tuition at one of those schools. So I try to keep a little perspective. And for me the materials are are value. Would I be happier if they cost less? Sure. But these are top notch materials I'm more than willing to pay for.

 

Bill

Sure, they are way cheaper than private school tuition, but they are way more than pretty much any other LA curriculum out there even taking into consideration all the topics covered. Phonics Road and Verticy are pretty much the only ones in the same ballpark and PR includes spelling & reading while Verticy is designed for LD kids.

 

MCT is excellent for what it covers but the fact that it has such a high pricetag but still requires supplementing annoys me no end. He charges over $200 for a LA program that is missing a major part of grammar instruction and that's not a "good value".

[Spy Car]

Sure, they are way cheaper than private school tuition, but they are way more than pretty much any other LA curriculum out there even taking into consideration all the topics covered. Phonics Road and Verticy are pretty much the only ones in the same ballpark and PR includes spelling & reading while Verticy is designed for LD kids.

 

MCT is excellent for what it covers but the fact that it has such a high pricetag but still requires supplementing annoys me no end. He charges over $200 for a LA program that is missing a major part of grammar instruction and that's not a "good value".

 

Our last MCT order (for Town) was $130. Not $200. That was for the "basic" homeschool package MINUS the Student Grammar Town (which is not necessary).

 

Only one book (out of the whole package) is "consumable," and that one book costs $10. 

 

It is fair that people have different perceptions of value. for me MCT is not "inexpensive," but worth every penny.

 

Bill

[NittanyJen]

At the risk of resurrecting a really old thread, I will point out that at least at the first Magic Lens level, my son learned plenty of punctuation.  With each clause and phrase came the rules of punctuation for that construct.  After just one level of ML, he can confidently explain-- even a year later-- when to use a colon, a semicolon, a comma, or nothing at all.  He knows when to hyphenate (sparingly, far more sparingly than his mother does in forum posts LOL) and can look at a sentence and decide whether to concatenate two sentences for better flow, or when to break them up into two separate sentences, because the practice books spend some time discussing this idea.  ML levels also do some light diagramming (though we have done other diagramming on our own).

 

We did not use the writing component of the program, so I cannot comment on that (he started the year in WWS and finished with IEW).

 

Now my big dilemma is trying to find-- anywhere-- the S&S that will tell me if it is worth purchasing ML 3.  Someone gave me (what a saint) her unused ML level 2, with vocabulary and poetics intact.  It is tempting to ease up on my budget and just use that, but since that will be his last year in logic stage and I plan for next year to be his final year of formal grammar instruction, I am wondering if we might be leaving out anything important.  I think probably not, but it would be nice to see a scope and sequence-- I didn't see one on their support forum and I'm wondering why it has to be a state secret.  Does anybody have ML3 and can share?

 

 

[Roadrunner]

Very few people seem to have used the upper level MCT material. I am so glad to hear about your experience in ML 1. While I can't help you with scope and sequence for ML 3, would you mind sharing if ML 2 builds on ML 1, or is it mostly a review? :)

[Reefgazer]

I agree with the bolded, and this is where we are at now.  I am currently puzzling over next year because I do not want to do Grammar Voyage next year (and I am not sure if that is a temporary hold or a permanent hold); in fact, I was planning on posting  a question this afternoon about my dilemma.  My DD can identify the parts of speech, parts of a sentence, phrases, and clauses in her sleep, but I see that she is not great at applying them in her writing.

I don't own Grammar Island, so I can't tell you exactly where it leaves off, but I know it doesn't teach phrases - at least not verbal and appositives, IDK about prepositional.  Verbals & appositives are introduced in Town.  Grammar Town & Grammar Voyage teach exactly the same stuff.  Exactly.   We ended up skipping GV for the most part.

 

I think MCT grammar is great beginning grammar for young kids, but I'm beginning to see its limitations.  We did Sentence Island, the whole Town level, skipped most of Grammar Voyage, and are now working quickly through the Practice Voyage sentences while I decide where to go next.  The problem I'm seeing at this point is that while you ID the parts of speech and parts of the sentence, you don't talk about the relations between sentence parts - i.e., what is that prepositional phrase modifying?  or the functions - i.e. - is the prep phrase behaving like and adjective or an adverb?  There is none of that.  There is discussion about misplaced modifiers,  and whether verbals are behaving as nouns or adjectives, but the linear 4-level analysis method doesn't really give a mechanism for seeing the relations between sentence parts.  This is where I think diagramming has an advantage over 4-level analysis, and I'm thinking that's where we may go next with grammar.

 

I'm really, really glad we started with 4-level analysis, and I think it will make diagramming very easy to learn, but I think that it's limited all by itself. 

 

[NittanyJen]

I just did a side by side of Town and Voyage. Besides the obvious new material in the vocabulary books, just in the grammar books,  I found quite a bit of new and expanded material within each section on careful comparison between the two levels, so no, Voyage is not a simple repeat of Town.  It is somewhat incremental, but if you wanted to take a year off and then go to Magic Lens 1 (where traditional diagramming begins) you could do so; if you have a child who needs yearly repetition, there is deeper information in Voyage than there was in Town.  

Looking in the 2012 edition of Voyage, there is also quite a lot of punctuation instruction in the volume.

 

 

[Roadrunner]

I just did a side by side of Town and Voyage. Besides the obvious new material in the vocabulary books, just in the grammar books, I found quite a bit of new and expanded material within each section on careful comparison between the two levels, so no, Voyage is not a simple repeat of Town. It is somewhat incremental, but if you wanted to take a year off and then go to Magic Lens 1 (where traditional diagramming begins) you could do so; if you have a child who needs yearly repetition, there is deeper information in Voyage than there was in Town.

Looking in the 2012 edition of Voyage, there is also quite a lot of punctuation instruction in the volume.

Aggggg, I was set on skipping the Voyage level on the assumption that there was nothing new in it. Now I am reconsidering.

[NittanyJen]

Maybe this will help; below I have not included a complete S&S, but a quick list of what I see as what has been included as new or expanded between Town and Voyage levels.  I want to do  similar thing between Magic Lens levels 1 & 2, but I haven't yet gotten around to it.  It's as accurate as I could make it between the kids yelling, "MOM MOM MOM MOM MOM!"  :)

 

Hopefully this will make it make sense when I say there is new material, but it is incremental.    For those who have not seen Magic Lens, FYI, ML is when traditional diagramming also begins.  That is, however, when you lose the fun storyline, and the vocabulary becomes extremely dry.  Word Within the Word  (the vocab book) had great content, but deathly delivery. 

 

Jen

 

 

Parts of Speech:  

• Nouns-- possessive 
• Pronouns-- indefinite, matching antecedent in number
• Adjectives-- articles are definite or indefinite, and their own category, LV's are used to help adjectives modify pronouns, but not needed to help adjectives modify nouns, a discussion on avoiding wordiness with unnecessary adjectives
• Adverbs-- generally expanded
• Verbs-- active and passive voice, progressive tenses, subjunctive mood, subject/verb agreement
• Prepositions-- word list expanded a little
• Conjunctions-- correlatives added
• Interjection-- no major changes
• Punctuating the parts of speech

Parts of a sentence

• Subject--mostly unchanged
• Predicate--simple predicate, complete predicate
• DO, IO, SC, using Subj/Obj pronouns correctly-- all expanded
• Punctuating parts of a sentence

Phrases

• Prep Phrases-- expanded explanation of how they act like adjectives and adverbs
• Appositive Phrases-- I don't think this changed much
• Verbals-- Gerunds and participles mostly repeat; infinitives--how they behave as nouns, adjectives, & adverbs, expanded section on subject/verb agreement when the two are interrupted by a phrase

 

Clauses

• Generally expanded
• Punctuation-- comma and semicolon expanded
• Phrases vs clauses-- expanded

 

 

 

 

[Roadrunner]

Jen, thank you so much for taking time to put all that together. This really helps clear up confusion over MCT levels.

If you do get around to putting anything like this for Magic Lens, please share with us!

[JBJones]

I just did a side by side of Town and Voyage. Besides the obvious new material in the vocabulary books, just in the grammar books,  I found quite a bit of new and expanded material within each section on careful comparison between the two levels, so no, Voyage is not a simple repeat of Town.  It is somewhat incremental, but if you wanted to take a year off and then go to Magic Lens 1 (where traditional diagramming begins) you could do so; if you have a child who needs yearly repetition, there is deeper information in Voyage than there was in Town.  

Looking in the 2012 edition of Voyage, there is also quite a lot of punctuation instruction in the volume.

 

Thank-you for the info. I just ordered Voyage two days ago. LOL :thumbup1:

This has been an extremely enlightening thread.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

 

 

 

Hopefully this will make it make sense when I say there is new material, but it is incremental.    For those who have not seen Magic Lens, FYI, ML is when traditional diagramming also begins.  That is, however, when you lose the fun storyline, and the vocabulary becomes extremely dry.  Word Within the Word  (the vocab book) had great content, but deathly delivery. 

 

Jen

 

 

 

 

Jen, do you have the new editions of ML or the older ones? I do not have either but it looks like ML grammar and vocab have been updated. I appreciate your help.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Jen, do you have the new editions of ML or the older ones? I do not have either but it looks like ML grammar and vocab have been updated. I appreciate your help.

 

Not Jen, but I have the new editions. I agree about the vocab delivery--the MCT magic is gone. A bizarre combo of history is added instead. It is not a cohesive, flowing history directly connected to the words. It's just... there.

 

We tried to make it work, but by the end of the year we knew our MCT days were over.

 

We switched to Sadlier Vocabulary Workshop, Analytical Grammar, and miscellaneous poetry and literature. English is a happy hour again!  :hurray:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Not Jen, but I have the new editions. I agree about the vocab delivery--the MCT magic is gone. A bizarre combo of history is added instead. It is not a cohesive, flowing history directly connected to the words. It's just... there.

 

We tried to make it work, but by the end of the year we knew our MCT days were over.

 

We switched to Sadlier Vocabulary Workshop, Analytical Grammar, and miscellaneous poetry and literature. English is a happy hour again!  :hurray:

 

Yep, what she said.  I like it for elementary and will use the first three levels with my younger, but we're done with the vocab.  It's turned into a weird unwieldy beast with the revisions.  And I've decided that learning roots out of context isn't how I want to spend our time . . . but that's another thread topic.  ;)

[Roadrunner]

Yep, what she said. I like it for elementary and will use the first three levels with my younger, but we're done with the vocab. It's turned into a weird unwieldy beast with the revisions. And I've decided that learning roots out of context isn't how I want to spend our time . . . but that's another thread topic. ;)

I thought those roots tie in to actual words in the second half of the book?

 

What are your thoughts on ML? If you are dropping MCT grammar, what are you using instead?

 

What are your thoughts on Advanced Academic writing? We are very much enjoying the Paragraph Town. Open ended assignment are working our very well for my boy. I am hoping upper level MCT is similar.

 

I am poking your brain as I realize I tend to agree with your curriculum choices generally. :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh yeah! I keep forgetting there are words in the last part of the book.   :auto:  Yep, lessons 20-30 are actual words.  We might do that part orally.  I wouldn't buy the whole program just for 10 words lists, though.

 

I honestly don't have an answer to your second question. I have ML, and I had planned to use it next year, but I'm now  thinking that in 7th grade, we won't do formal vocab and grammar.  We've done the first three levels of MCT, and Shannon writes well and doesn't tend to make grammatical errors.  There are only so many hours in the day, and I think our time will be more productively spent on other things.  I'll probably hang on to ML and reassess periodically (read: question my decision incessantly  :rolleyes: ) but that's where I'm at right now.

 

I checked out Advanced Academic Writing samples awhile ago and decided we weren't going to go down that path - I haven't liked any of MCT's other writing stuff as writing instruction per se, (though we did use and enjoy for discussion SI, PT & EV)  and I don't see that changing at this point.  Again, I'm feeling the need to slash anything extraneous so that we can focus on what is critical.  But if you are liking PT, it might be fine for you.  I don't think it's similar to PT, though.  See what you think of Essay Voyage before you decide.  It's very different from PT, too.

 

Just as a public service announcement, I'm kind of going through a period of radical philosophical revisioning at the moment, so if you've liked my past choices, there is no guarantee that you will continue to like my future choices! You've been warned.  ;)  :D

[Roadrunner]

Just as a public service announcement, I'm kind of going through a period of radical philosophical revisioning at the moment, so if you've liked my past choices, there is no guarantee that you will continue to like my future choices! You've been warned. ;) :D

:) So dropping Latin wasn't your last rebellion.

I am worried that if you are disliking upper level MCT, there is a possibility I might. I really hold that's not the case. :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

:) So dropping Latin wasn't your last rebellion.

I am worried that if you are disliking upper level MCT, there is a possibility I might. I really hold that's not the case. :)

 

No.  I'm reading a bunch of Alfie Kohn right now.  That's enough to rock anyone's world!  :lol:

[Roadrunner]

No. I'm reading a bunch of Alfie Kohn right now. That's enough to rock anyone's world! :lol:

No, no, no, you didn't just send me there.

Oh wait, I have been down that road and survived. :) "The Unconditional Parenting" inspired a very chaotic six months in this house and was a complete fail. I loved his book, agreed with so much in it, but no, not a workable one. Not going down that road. :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

No, no, no, you didn't just send me there.

Oh wait, I have been down that road and survived. :) "The Unconditional Parenting" inspired a very chaotic six months in this house and was a complete fail. I loved his book, agreed with so much in it, but no, not a workable one. Not going down that road. :)

 

:lol:  I haven't read that one  I'm reading The Schools Our Children Deserve.  I'm not trying to rain on anybody else's parade! But as I'm trying to move us toward more interest-led, inquiry-based, question-driven learning, I'm finding it to be just what the doctor ordered.

[Roadrunner]

:lol: I haven't read that one I'm reading The Schools Our Children Deserve. I'm not trying to rain on anybody else's parade! But as I'm trying to move us toward more interest-led, inquiry-based, question-driven learning, I'm finding it to be just what the doctor ordered.

I am hoping my kids will drive more of my choices as they get older, but for now, this seems like a dream. The funny thing is I pick the curriculum that's teacher intensive because it seems to be so much more discussion based (MCT and BFSU are our favorites because it fits into that question-driven format that leads to conversations and deeper learning). I am finding hard to design classes witout good materials (I really do need to be educating myself more) and it seems like there are so few. I need to teach Medieval time period and Shakespeare to little ones..... I am going to start a tread on that now. :)

[SarahW]

Yep, what she said.  I like it for elementary and will use the first three levels with my younger, but we're done with the vocab.  It's turned into a weird unwieldy beast with the revisions.  And I've decided that learning roots out of context isn't how I want to spend our time . . . but that's another thread topic.  ;)

 

 

Let's say you used CAP or MP Latin for a few years.

 

Let's say you did a bit of Greek in there, too.

 

Let's say you did a few extra language arts books as well like EM, and a spelling program that covers stems.

 

And the first few levels of MCT vocab.

 

....how much more does the upper-level MCT vocab have to offer?

 

If I continue using MCT I'll have to buy it used (and cheap), so I'm looking down the road and wondering where we'll go, and what is necessary for me to poke around curriculum sales for.

 

Right now I'm leaning towards thinking that ML/Poetry/4Practice would be all we would do at the upper level. With W&R as a writing program. Would that be a good combo for middle school?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, I'm not sure I'm the right person to ask, since I just decided to drop ML and WWW for 7th grade!  :lol:  You might get a better answer if you post your question as a new thread on the Logic Board.  It certainly seems like a reasonable approach to me.  I'm fighting my own tendency to try and do way too much.

[SarahW]

Well, I'm not sure I'm the right person to ask, since I just decided to drop ML and WWW for 7th grade!  :lol:  You might get a better answer if you post your question as a new thread on the Logic Board.  It certainly seems like a reasonable approach to me.  I'm fighting my own tendency to try and do way too much.

 

Yeah, I could ask there, but there's no rush (at all!). I've found this thread interesting (big thanks to whoever revived it) and I'm also trying to take into consideration where the line lies between being thorough and overkill. I don't find the samples of MCT on RFWP to be particularly enlightening, so the fact that WWW only covers 10 new stems helps. Figuring that we would probably have already covered those stems somewhere else by that point...that helps too.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh no - I have created a misconception!  WWW has 30 lessons.  In each of the first 20 lessons, you learn 30 new stems - so 600 stems!  Then, in the last 10 lessons, you learn 30 new words - so 300 words.  It's definitely meaty in terms of content.

[SarahW]

Oh no - I have created a misconception!  WWW has 30 lessons.  In each of the first 20 lessons, you learn 30 new stems - so 600 stems!  Then, in the last 10 lessons, you learn 30 new words - so 300 words.  It's definitely meaty in terms of content.

 

 

Oh, yes, sorry, I misunderstood and misspoke!

 

I went and looked at the sample again, and I think I am starting to understand it better. It could be interesting to work back from the English stem to the Latin or Greek base word that we've already learned (maybe, at that point). Or is that where the line is crossed into overkill territory?  :laugh: