My child has forgotten nearly everything she ever learned in math! Need advice.....

[Rosie]

My nearly 8 year old has always been gifted in math. She always caught on quickly and has always been at least 1-2 years ahead in grade level. But, in addition to that, she just has a natural understanding of numbers. As young as 4 and 5 years old she would come up with ways to do mental math that I hadn't yet taught her and sometimes had never even heard of. I've always been amazed at her number sense.

 

Well....

 

We took a month off of doing math this summer and started back up a couple weeks ago. She seems to have completely forgotten everything she's ever learned! She's finished Singapore 2, is in the middle of Miquon yellow, and in Beast Academy 3B. We started up with Beast Academy in the squares chapter where they teach how to square numbers ending in 5 (i.e. 75x75) and, while reading through the guide, she seemed to kinda sorta get it, but by the end of the section said she was confused. So, I backed up, went to the white board, got out the C-rods and had her work out 15x15 with the rods then drawing a picture. It was like she had never seen this before (and she has)! She didn't see that the 5 ten rods were 50. She acted confused about how to tell what the whole amount was when it was right there in front of her - 100 + 50 + 50 + 25. I tried 25x25 and 35x35 the next day with her. Same thing. She was so confused about simple things. We went back to basic multiplication. She couldn't remember much. Things like 4x6, which two years ago she would have figured out in a few seconds by doing 2x6+2x6, she couldn't figure out. She can't do addition/subtraction either. Stuff like 7+8 and 14-9 she was struggling with today.

 

I know everyone's first inclination is going to be to tell me that she's bored and faking ignorance, and she HAS done that before. We wasted a few months last year because of that, but I honestly don't think that's what's happening here. It just feels different. I don't know....

 

A bit more info in case it helps: She is a right-brained learner, very visual/spatial, EXTREMELY creative, distractible (wouldn't do well in traditional school!), artistic, loves people.

 

She normally has distractible moments where her mind is wandering and then, when she comes back, I can see her brain start working and she gets the answer to whatever we're working on. Well, lately, it's been like her brain just won't turn on. Literally. She's been saying she doesn't know why her brain won't work.

 

No changes in diet. Nothing traumatic has happened. I'm truly at a loss. She's acting like kids I've tutored with dyscalculia, but I KNOW she doesn't have that.

 

The first three minutes of this video from almost a year and a half ago will give you an idea of her personality. She's the younger one.

 

In this video (also from over a year ago) she's doing square numbers and addition. It's obvious she knows this stuff.

 

Any words of advice/wisdom? Maybe I should have her watch through all the videos we made and that will jog her memory? Should I go back to Singapore 1? Just wait it out? Play games like Muggins, etc. for a while until her brain wakes up? Is this normal? Has anyone else's child gone through something similar?

 

Thank you!!!!

[Vida Winter]

This year is the first time we have ever taken a real summer vacation from home school (busy times - son getting married and dd starting college) and my 9yo has had a similar experience. I backed *way* up (Singapore 2a) and we're quickly going through Singapore math problems to get up to speed. We'll spend a total of about 10 days reviewing 2a and move on. We're also doing Rightstart math games to remember math facts. Timed worksheets are too painful. The good thing is that it is all coming back to her, so hang in there and do the review. This is what math teachers in public school have to do every year.

 

 

[Mandy in TN]

Something similar happened to my youngest this year with Alg2. I am just starting over at the beginning of Alg2 using Derek Owens so that I am somewhat removed from the picture.

 

Could it be hormonal? Prepubescent brain fog will do that to some kids and girls who start their periods at 9 or 10 would be entering something around 8. Right? Maybe not, it really is a question as I have no dds and have never checked on this.

 

With my sons I just think it is something particular to Alg2. It has now happened to all 3 of them and they did Alg2 at very different ages. <shrug> I guess I should have seen it coming, but my youngest has never had any trouble remembering math so it wasn't on my radar.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Kathy in Richmond]

Rosie, my daughter is also an extremely right-brained VSL gifted in math. We also started with Miquon, then Singapore, Jacobs, and AoPS.

 

Working with her was SO different than working with her older brother, who thinks more like I do.

 

I did a lot more layering with her in math. We'd usually have three strands going daily: a review or math facts time, something straightforward like an exercise in Singapore, and something else delight-directed at a higher conceptual level, to give her a taste of what's to come. For example, she loved trying her hand at MathCounts problems before she reached to the age when she could participate.

 

She loved the third part, was a good kid about the middle (especially if she was allowed to use a whiteboard), and tolerated the first. But she absolutely needed cyclical review to make things stick. She reached algebra at a young age, but I kept her there for a couple of years by working through two complete programs.

 

After she went through puberty, it became much, much better for her & the "glitches" disappeared.

 

[ErinE]

We stopped school for a few weeks in July. My dd7 lost her brain somewhere during that time. Mental math strategies, gone. Subtracting double digits, never seen it. It was so frustrating! She was upset; I was baffled. So I backed up, using a dry erase board and blank sheets of paper. We played games, reviewed mental math, built and took apart numbers. By the end of the second week, the lightbulb turned on and she got back in math mode. She still has hiccups. The other day, she struggled with coins. I know that if I plopped her in a toy store she would have figured out the coins needed for a Legos set faster than a retail clerk working during the Christmas season. So we powered through with me by her side.

[wapiti]

It's ok.  Go back, review a bunch of stuff.  It'll come back.

 

If it makes you feel any better, earlier this summer ds10 (very, very VSL) was working a problem in AoPS.  One random step involved a multi-digit subtraction (which he learned when he was around 4 y.o.).  Um, he temporarily forgot how to do it - he didn't understand why what he did was wrong.  He had tears in his eyes because he didn't understand what I was trying to tell him.  Fortunately it only lasted a few (excruciating, for me) minutes and then he was like, "oh!  duh.  oops."

 

And that was before we ended up taking a couple months off this summer.  I now understand why a typical school year starts with so much review.  My boys forgot every. thing. that they learned in June.  I've been doing a lot of forehead-slapping (to myself).  So, we have backed up and reviewed and they slowly, painfully are starting to turn on their brains again.  We took the summer off because I slacked off on making them do it - dh was gone most of the summer for work and.. and... anyway, never again.

[Crimson Wife]

DS is a VSL and while he is more "mathy" than his big sister, he also needs way more review than she does. Once she has mastered a concept, she doesn't need much review. He on the other hand is able to intuitively figure out concepts without being taught, but the flip side is that he needs frequent review of the facts & traditional algorithms.

[quark]

We've always had several math strands running at the same time. I am lucky that I don't have to force it because math is a favorite subject. It's a lot like a language in that respect. The more you use it the more it sticks. If your child needs to take that break, that might be the time to crack open those more "puzzle/ fun math" type books. The fun ones help fill in the intervals, keep their brains working (albeit using different strategies because puzzles tend to bring out the right brained side). Then by the time they go back to the curriculum type math, they are still "rested" but remember better because they've also been "working" on math throughout their "break". Doesn't necessarily have to be "show your work" kind of problems depending on the child. A huge benefit for us doing it this way is that we don't have to do any intensive review. A couple of days at most if DS has truly forgotten something but with so many math threads running at the same time, he rarely needs it.

 

Very reassuring to me that Kathy has used the same method! I used to schedule it by having 10-20 minutes of math in the morning, 10-20 mins in the afternoon and 10-20 more as the last subject of the day when he was younger. Lots of whiteboard based work at that time so it didn't feel tedious and having him teach it back to me. Gradually moved to approx. 30 + 30 minutes 2x a day by cutting down on the practice problems strand (he didn't need drill-type problems after starting algebra) and using main curriculum + problem solving books. Now, DS is able to schedule/ choose what to do when himself and usually takes 45-90 minutes for 2 strands (abstract algebra type problems/ puzzlers as one strand, his main mentor-led more traditional math subject homework as the other strand, not counting the fun math he does in his free time).

 

Like wapiti says it will come back! Just an extra 10 minutes a day could be good enough for starters.

[dancingmama]

I'm having a similar issue with my Daughter. I also wondered if she is having a hormonal/pre-pubescent brain fog situation. It might explain why so many girls are rolling in math and then all of a sudden they "hate math" right around the 8-10 age.

 

Regardless, I am doing some reviewing, some giving her time to think things through and lots of reminders that math is not easy but it's fun to think think think.

[boscopup]

My 9 year old boy forgot a lot recently, and we didn't even break for summer! Things just started suddenly leaking out his ears. So I slowed WAAAAY down and started doing two different strands of math each day - one is basic arithmetic practice (I'm using CLE Math 500 for this - spiral, boring, easy to get done quickly, and it includes speed drills which he could use), and the other is his challenge level prealgebra work (I'm using a combination of AoPS and Dolciani... Introduce with AoPS, then practice in Dolciani if needed - doing every AoPS problem, but not doing all of the Dolciani sections).

 

I just shook my head a few weeks ago when my son was multiplying fractions by only multiplying the numerators and just leaving the denominator the same as the original fractions. He'd completely forgotten what to do with mixed numbers period (all 4 operations - just had no clue what to do). This kid understood fractions from a young age, never had any trouble with fractions while doing elementary math (Math Mammoth and Singapore, so the conceptual foundation was there), did great with Life of Fred Fractions, completing the Final Bridge on the 2nd try. He had even been using fractions in his AoPS work! Yet when given a straight fraction problem, he forgot how to do it. :lol: So I know it's still in there (again, he used them in AoPS without any problems), but he needs more basic drill for it to become automatic. That just takes time for his young brain.

 

I also suspect some sort of prepubescent thing going on. I moved him out of his brothers' room so he can get more sleep. That seems to be helping.

 

Our math time only takes about an hour or less each day. He does the CLE for 15-20 minutes, including a speed drill (1 minute), and then later he does about 30-45 minutes of AoPS or Dolciani (with me at elbow for AoPS). The CLE is completely review (he finished Singapore 5B last spring), but it helps keep the basics fresh in his mind long enough to become automatic so hopefully it won't fall out of his brain if he doesn't use the concept for a month. :tongue_smilie:

[Pen]

If we take breaks in math it gets forgotten.  Mondays after weekend break are mathematically and patience challenging.  

 

But I also think there are times when the brain is busy re-adjusting itself and at those times things seem like they can slip out even if there are no breaks at all.  

 

Also, even minor ills, tiredness, etc., can have effects.  

 

Her saying she doesn't know why her brain won't work is a bit disconcerting, in so far as it sounds like she herself is confused and troubled.   Probably all that is needed is to review and it will all come back.   But if it isn't seeming to do so, I'd look for a physical issue even if you think there is none...     food or other intolerances can develop so just because there were no changes does not mean definitely no problems   ... and just because you have not changed what you do does not mean that a supplier has not changed what they do, so there may be something in some food she gets that didn't used to be in it. Or something like a tick bite might not be noticed, but cause problems. And so forth.

[brendag]

Ok, the same thing happened with my ds6 when we took a 3 week break.  He didn't forget everything, but I was definitely thinking "what the heck happened?"  I had already planned to take shorter but more frequent breaks this year and I think this kind of confirms it for me, especially with math.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Rosie, I don't really have any words of wisdom, but I cannot tell you how encouraging it was to watch the first video of your daughter that you posted - the multiples video - and realize, wow - I am not the only one whose kid knows her stuff, but it's like pulling teeth to get her to focus on the task and do what I want her to do this very minute!! You are so patient!  How inspiring.  Thank you.

[Rosie]

Thank you for the replies, everyone! Hearing your stories helps me feel less stressed about this. I just needed to hear that, yes, this can be normal and we'll get through it. It's been so frustrating, but I'm going to lower my expectations for a while and just do games and review.

 

Could it be hormonal? Prepubescent brain fog will do that to some kids and girls who start their periods at 9 or 10 would be entering something around 8. Right? Maybe not, it really is a question as I have no dds and have never checked on this.
 

I don't think it's hormonal (She's still definitely a little girl!), but I'm gonna keep an eye on that. I suppose it's possible!

 

 

Her saying she doesn't know why her brain won't work is a bit disconcerting, in so far as it sounds like she herself is confused and troubled.   Probably all that is needed is to review and it will all come back.   But if it isn't seeming to do so, I'd look for a physical issue even if you think there is none...     food or other intolerances can develop so just because there were no changes does not mean definitely no problems   ... and just because you have not changed what you do does not mean that a supplier has not changed what they do, so there may be something in some food she gets that didn't used to be in it. Or something like a tick bite might not be noticed, but cause problems. And so forth.

I will watch for this, too. Thank you!

 

Rosie, I don't really have any words of wisdom, but I cannot tell you how encouraging it was to watch the first video of your daughter that you posted - the multiples video - and realize, wow - I am not the only one whose kid knows her stuff, but it's like pulling teeth to get her to focus on the task and do what I want her to do this very minute!! You are so patient!  How inspiring.  Thank you.

LOL! Yes, it's hard to get her to focus! And, I wish I were always that patient! It helps when you know hundreds of people are going to be watching what you're doing! I must admit, my patience has seriously been tested with her over the past two weeks. I think I'm going to go read some books about how to parent/teach distractible, ADD, right-brained, VSL children now!

[Uff Da!]

nm 

 

[quark]

But I also think there are times when the brain is busy re-adjusting itself and at those times things seem like they can slip out even if there are no breaks at all.  

 

Also, even minor ills, tiredness, etc., can have effects.  

 

I agree and even if it's not early puberty, a growth spurt might throw things off balance too. We didn't see this with math but with other little things like sudden behavioral changes, appetite, unexplained lethargy etc.

[TracyP]

Rosie, first off I wanted to tell you that I (and my kids) love your videos. Thank you!

 

I just watched the clip you linked of your middle dd. All three of my boys do that stuff constantly. I always assume I just got lucky with my oldest dd, lol. Yes, it tries my patience. Yes, everything takes longer than it should. No, I don't think there is anything out of the norm going on. Go ahead and read up on the VSL/ADD/distractible child (I do too). I just wanted to let you know that behavior is very normal around here. :)

[Mommy22alyns]

Yeah, summer breaks are death to math.  I had gotten to the end of HOE level 2 at the end of last year, and we started it back up and I had to explain what x was.   :huh:

[Pen]

Hpw is it going?  Is it coming back to her?

 

I just remembered one more thing to add, which is sometimes there seems to be an area/time period where/when information is unavailable, as it were, during the trip between short term memory and long term memory.   It is as if it is not forgotten at all, just enroute, and when it then arrives at the long term memory station it is more solid than it was.

[Uff Da!]

nm 

 

[mathwonk]

don't worry. i am a professional mathematician and i forgot my own research after 3 months of inactivity. it does come back with renewed study, but the moral is not to let the math get "cold".

[Rosie]

Thank you for the replies, everyone! Once again, very helpful!

 

We are currently on vacation so we're not doing any math probably until next Tuesday. I'll update once I see some changes!!!

[Rosie]

UPDATE: Whelp, it looks like I've been suckered for two months by my 8 yr old! I can hardly believe it. Wow.

 

We are in Florida, so the weather is just now getting nice enough to stay outdoors for any length of time. The other day she suggested we do math on the driveway with chalk. I said yes. It was unbelievable. I started out with simple multiplication problems for her. She was getting them almost instantly, so I put in some fraction multiplication problems, then some division, then some multiplication with very large numbers. She did them all (struggled a bit with division, though) and begged for me to give her more! At one point she told me, "I'm not going to pretend that I don't know what I'm doing today." WHAAAAAAAAT?!?!?!?!?!? SERIOUSLY?!?!? So, I've wasted two months of time and energy trying to figure out what happened to this child's brain when the entire time she was just pretending! Sigh.... She never broke character. Pretty amazing.

 

Now she keeps asking to do driveway math and saying she LOVES math and when we can't do driveway math she wants me to write out a bunch of really hard problems on paper for her to do. What a trip!!! :)

 

 

[mom2bee]

UPDATE: Whelp, it looks like I've been suckered for two months by my 8 yr old! I can hardly believe it. Wow.

 

We are in Florida, so the weather is just now getting nice enough to stay outdoors for any length of time. The other day she suggested we do math on the driveway with chalk. I said yes. It was unbelievable. I started out with simple multiplication problems for her. She was getting them almost instantly, so I put in some fraction multiplication problems, then some division, then some multiplication with very large numbers. She did them all (struggled a bit with division, though) and begged for me to give her more! At one point she told me, "I'm not going to pretend that I don't know what I'm doing today." WHAAAAAAAAT?!?!?!?!?!? SERIOUSLY?!?!? So, I've wasted two months of time and energy trying to figure out what happened to this child's brain when the entire time she was just pretending! Sigh.... She never broke character. Pretty amazing.

 

Now she keeps asking to do driveway math and saying she LOVES math and when we can't do driveway math she wants me to write out a bunch of really hard problems on paper for her to do. What a trip!!! :)

 

Good that you got that solved. Personally I don't think I'd have been the least bit amused, but I'm glad you are back on track and she's found something to keep her interested and help her engaged.

 

You totally should have seen this coming though, based on what you wrote back in Sept.

 

I know everyone's first inclination is going to be to tell me that she's bored and faking ignorance, and she HAS done that before. We wasted a few months last year because of that, but I honestly don't think that's what's happening here. It just feels different. I don't know...

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Wow, what a character.  Good luck, mama!  This one sounds like she's going to keep life interesting for you!  I have one of those, too.

[Pen]

Out of curiosity, did you impose any consequences for dishonesty or discuss how doing what she did wastes time and energy and consider what would happen if there were a next time?  Or if the issue is being bored that there are other ways to get things more interesting than feigning ignorance?  Or were you just happy to be back on track and decided to let it go?   Or?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Is it possible that saying she was faking is a coping mechanism? I imagine forgetting or not understanding could feel scary, embarrassing, or bewildering to some kids. Either way, I would discuss the long-term faking.

[Rosie]

Hi, everyone. Sorry I didn't get back to this right away. My dad passed away, we traveled to Michigan for the memorial, and we're just getting back into the swing of things with school.

 

Yes, I talked with her about what she did. No, I'm not giving any specific consequences because I'm not convinced that she fully realized what she was doing. On some level, of course she did, but with how consistently she stayed in character.... she's not a good enough actress to pull that off without truly believing it. So, I'm viewing this as an opportunity to help her learn more about herself, to train her character.... in perseverance, honesty, patience, etc. We will be having lots of talks in the future about this. It's not as if I'm just letting it go.... especially because she keeps trying it! LOL! Tuesday she acted all overwhelmed, like she couldn't do the Challenging Word Problems I was having her do, then yesterday she flew through the same kinds of problems. It's like she gets stuck in a specific mindset and can't get out. I don't know. So that's where we're at... for better or worse....

[TracyP]

Hi, everyone. Sorry I didn't get back to this right away. My dad passed away, we traveled to Michigan for the memorial, and we're just getting back into the swing of things with school.

 

Yes, I talked with her about what she did. No, I'm not giving any specific consequences because I'm not convinced that she fully realized what she was doing. On some level, of course she did, but with how consistently she stayed in character.... she's not a good enough actress to pull that off without truly believing it. So, I'm viewing this as an opportunity to help her learn more about herself, to train her character.... in perseverance, honesty, patience, etc. We will be having lots of talks in the future about this. It's not as if I'm just letting it go.... especially because she keeps trying it! LOL! Tuesday she acted all overwhelmed, like she couldn't do the Challenging Word Problems I was having her do, then yesterday she flew through the same kinds of problems. It's like she gets stuck in a specific mindset and can't get out. I don't know. So that's where we're at... for better or worse....

 

I'm sorry for your loss. :grouphug:

 

I completely know what you are talking about, and I do not think it is a character issue. At least, not beyond needing to learn perseverance. I have experienced exactly what you wrote (bolded), yet haven't had those words for it. I remember last year working on x10/100 in BA. He acted completely confused, then went on to explain it to his dad over supper, then struggled with it the next day. We had another situation like this just yesterday. He was struggling with concepts he had breezed through the day before. We put it away and came back after some lunch and some fresh air. No problem.

 

I do not think he is out to trick me. Giving a punishment would completely backfire. He just "gets stuck in a specific mindset and can't get out." :)  Now how to get past that...

[wapiti]

Tuesday she acted all overwhelmed, like she couldn't do the Challenging Word Problems I was having her do, then yesterday she flew through the same kinds of problems. It's like she gets stuck in a specific mindset and can't get out.

 

This sounds a bit like one of my ds10s.  He has major perfectionism (or anxiety?) issues that get in the way so often that I forget how able he is when he is calm.  Night before last, we were working in the square root chapter in aops prealgebra, on the couch - he was calm and paid attention and he did fantastically well.  Then last night, he seemed to not remember anything - he was back in this bad mode where he just wants to be told a procedure and he feels like he can't think through it himself because he's tired and is only working with about two brain cells.

 

I'm sorry about your dad  :grouphug:

[MinivanMom]

Hi, everyone. Sorry I didn't get back to this right away. My dad passed away, we traveled to Michigan for the memorial, and we're just getting back into the swing of things with school.

 

Yes, I talked with her about what she did. No, I'm not giving any specific consequences because I'm not convinced that she fully realized what she was doing. On some level, of course she did, but with how consistently she stayed in character.... she's not a good enough actress to pull that off without truly believing it. So, I'm viewing this as an opportunity to help her learn more about herself, to train her character.... in perseverance, honesty, patience, etc. We will be having lots of talks in the future about this. It's not as if I'm just letting it go.... especially because she keeps trying it! LOL! Tuesday she acted all overwhelmed, like she couldn't do the Challenging Word Problems I was having her do, then yesterday she flew through the same kinds of problems. It's like she gets stuck in a specific mindset and can't get out. I don't know. So that's where we're at... for better or worse....

 

I am so sorry.

 

I think teaching perseverance in the face of difficult problems is an ongoing process. It's worth the effort, but very few children are born with a natural desire to wrestle with the challenging problems. We just keep at it. For my two older kids it has taken lots of hard-won successes to build their confidence and motivation.