Online school is not homeschool?

[Ellie]

That is using K12 independently. We're doing that also this year and are legally homeschoolers. It is no different than buying BJU or Abeka in a box. I think most (if not all) on this thread have agreed with that point. But yes, it is not so obvious anymore where the lines fall.

 

Yes, buying K12 and doing it yourself is the same as buying BJUP or ABeka or whatever.

 

The line really is obvious: if the box of books or the on-line stuff is free, then it's public school at home; if the parents pay for it themselves, it's homeschooling/private schooling/not public-school-at-home.

[Desert Strawberry]

FWIW, I was not looking for a legal discussion. I know the law in my state. I know how each option is *legally* classified. 

 

My questions had to do with cultural and social labels and why a homeschool group would not welcome everyone who is not in a B&M school full time. 

 

Both of these have been addressed. 
 

I might point out briefly, that laws DO vary from state to state. Some laws are ambiguously written. Interpretations may vary. Unless one has made an exhaustive study of all options in all 50 states, Canadian provinces and territories, I don't think one can say that the law is clear and uniform EVERYWHERE. Even if one had, one may not assume that the law is clear TO EVERYONE. One may only state that the law is clear to herself. 

I find our laws very easy to understand and to practice. I have had others in my state tell me they are terribly complicated. Who is correct? Both and neither. An opinion is an opinion. Everyone has their own. 

 

Repeatedly informing others that your opinion is CORRECT and TRUE is poor form. Let's step back and be kind to one another. 

 

 

[Desert Strawberry]

Yes, buying K12 and doing it yourself is the same as buying BJUP or ABeka or whatever.

 

The line really is obvious: if the box of books or the on-line stuff is free, then it's public school at home; if the parents pay for it themselves, it's homeschooling/private schooling/not public-school-at-home.

 

I disagree, as many others have. 

 

Legally, the child is enrolled in public school. 

 

IN PRACTICE, the schooling is home schooling. Once the box is opened, the child looks just like every other homeschooler, and the parent acts and feels and thinks just like every other homeschooling parent. '

 

My original question was not about legalities. It was about labels. I think you may be missing the point a bit here. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I disagree, as many others have. 

 

Legally, the child is enrolled in public school. 

 

IN PRACTICE, the schooling is home schooling. Once the box is opened, the child looks just like every other homeschooler, and the parent acts and feels and thinks just like every other homeschooling parent. '

 

My original question was not about legalities. It was about labels. I think you may be missing the point a bit here. 

Labels mean nothing outside of a bureaucracy.  What I personally might think about the choices a parent makes for schooling and how to classify it means nothing.  The classification is important only when it comes to making bureaucratic decisions.  Those bureaucratic decisions include those made by a homeschooling group.  Some groups are small enough that they can truly be inclusive because it really is just a meeting of individuals.  Some groups are large, and have a large demand that requires the use of classification in order to make decisions, including whether someone meets their classification of "homeschooling".  The reason that I brought the legal definitions into the conversation is because those definitions help to make those bureaucratic classifications fair.  

 

But wait. . . there's more!  My individual thoughts on classification don't matter until it is time for me to vote in the polls.  And then my ideas on what is or is not homeschooling and who is making the curriculum decisions matters because I am now voting on what the greater bureaucracy of the state decides on how to classify homeschoolers.  Again - understanding and being clear on legal definitions is vital in order to keep those definitions clear in the polls.  

 

So. . . I don't see this conversation as having any purpose without a discussion of legalities.  Unless you think that homeschoolers are just discriminating in order to bad-mouth each other.  At which point. . .  I haven't seen that in real life.  I've personally found homeschoolers to be friendly and inclusive no matter what curriculum I use, whether I go to a co-op or not, or whether I use the computer or not.  They might not necessarily have anything in common with me, the further apart our choices are but I find that is generally on a deeper level than our homeschooling choices.  But people who are kindred spirits are kindred spirits even if they don't really get why I don't use co-ops (and other weird choices I've made).  

[8filltheheart]

Labels mean nothing outside of a bureaucracy.  What I personally might think about the choices a parent makes for schooling and how to classify it means nothing.  The classification is important only when it comes to making bureaucratic decisions.  Those bureaucratic decisions include those made by a homeschooling group.  Some groups are small enough that they can truly be inclusive because it really is just a meeting of individuals.  Some groups are large, and have a large demand that requires the use of classification in order to make decisions, including whether someone meets their classification of "homeschooling".  The reason that I brought the legal definitions into the conversation is because those definitions help to make those bureaucratic classifications fair.  

 

But wait. . . there's more!  My individual thoughts on classification don't matter until it is time for me to vote in the polls.  And then my ideas on what is or is not homeschooling and who is making the curriculum decisions matters because I am now voting on what the greater bureaucracy of the state decides on how to classify homeschoolers.  Again - understanding and being clear on legal definitions is vital in order to keep those definitions clear in the polls.  

 

So. . . I don't see this conversation as having any purpose without a discussion of legalities.  Unless you think that homeschoolers are just discriminating in order to bad-mouth each other.  At which point. . .  I haven't seen that in real life.  I've personally found homeschoolers to be friendly and inclusive no matter what curriculum I use, whether I go to a co-op or not, or whether I use the computer or not.  They might not necessarily have anything in common with me, the further apart our choices are but I find that is generally on a deeper level than our homeschooling choices.  But people who are kindred spirits are kindred spirits even if they don't really get why I don't use co-ops (and other weird choices I've made).  

I like this so much I had to quote it.   I started to write a response and deleted it.    You articulated it so well.   

 

And, fwiw, for those that do not want the NEA or govt dictating what has to be taught in your home, legally the distinction means something long term.   

[Ellie]

I disagree, as many others have. 

 

Legally, the child is enrolled in public school. 

 

IN PRACTICE, the schooling is home schooling. Once the box is opened, the child looks just like every other homeschooler, and the parent acts and feels and thinks just like every other homeschooling parent. '

 

My original question was not about legalities. It was about labels. I think you may be missing the point a bit here. 

 

If you buy K12 with your own money, your child is not enrolled in public school. If you get K12 for free and have to do testing and other evaluations, then it is public school. That was my point. Possibly you were not aware that you may buy K12 and use it independently, the same way that you buy a box of books from BJUP or ABeka.

[school17777]

Yes, buying K12 and doing it yourself is the same as buying BJUP or ABeka or whatever.

 

The line really is obvious: if the box of books or the on-line stuff is free, then it's public school at home; if the parents pay for it themselves, it's homeschooling/private schooling/not public-school-at-home.

 

 

In my state, you can borrow materials from the public school to use as a traditional homeschooler.  So using your definition, how would you classify a family who does this (because their materials are free)?

[AimeeM]

Pen, I think the OP's point is that you are still a homeschooler even if you're enrolled in some type of public school option that allows a child to work from home (correct me if I'm wrong, OP). While I understand from your post that you dont believe those enrolled in a public online school are homeschooling because the parent assumes no responsibility for educating the child, I'd like to point out that there are plenty of public school options for homeschoolers that do not require the student to take any online class, and do allow the parent full choice of which materials to use with their dc, what scope and sequence to follow, etc. To me, and all of the families in our homeschool group in CA who used the services of the public charter to purchase art supplies, pay for nature classes, piano lessons, private tutoring, etc, that still counts as homeschooling. I was still hand-selecting my dc materials/classes/educational pedagogy/books/etc.

 

That charter offered enrolled families $900/semester per child to be used on anything deemed educational, provided it was secular. You could use religious materials but the school couldn't pay for them. I could have used every cent on private tutoring or the the whole chunk on art classes. So, my point is that the waters are muddy and it's not as clearly defined as it once was (at least to me). We knew radical unschoolers enrolled in that charter. That's a lot of funding for families and hard to pass up.

I may be coming in late on a conversation I know nothing about, but that is NOT how it is here (in my state). Public virtual school users (in our state) are not legally considered homeschoolers - they are legally public school students, they are all required (by the 3 virtual options here) to log on a certain amount of time daily, and attend online classes at specific times, and NONE allow you to choose your own materials. There are no charter schools here that give you money and allow you to choose materials.

[briansmama]

Yep, in our state you can choose to use K12 free through the district for only 1 subject.

 

I'd also argue that just because a child is enrolled in public school doesn't automatically make them "only" a public school student. Like I mentioned previously in this thread, we have close friends who enrolled their ds in the local ps purely for services. They homeschool (choose, plan, prep, and pay for) 3 days per week.

 

So, just because a child is enrolled in something doesn't make them "only" a student of private school, public school, online school, etc.

 

Why not celebrate the ability to pick and choose? My ds is enrolled in a private online course but I would not say that academy educates my child. He's homeschooled and we contract out one subject. If we ever wanted to utilize K12 for science, I would probably go through the local ps to get it for free. I wouldn't consider him a public schooled kid- he's only enrolled in 1 class!

 

Similarly, our district allows kids in middle and high school to enroll part time for classes like band, foreign language, and sports. I'm certainly not turning in my homeschooling card when I'm still providing/planning/choosing what ds will study for language arts, history, and math.

 

Also, if I had a special needs kid and had to go through our local district for services but was still educating him fully at home, there's no way I'd consider him a public school kid.

 

It seems to me from this thread that some states and districts don't allow alternative options (part time enrollment, selecting 1 or 2 classes online, etc). Ours does, so maybe that's why I'm having a hard time understanding the line in the sand.

[briansmama]

That is using K12 independently. We're doing that also this year and are legally homeschoolers. It is no different than buying BJU or Abeka in a box. I think most (if not all) on this thread have agreed with that point. But yes, it is not so obvious anymore where the lines fall.

Just wanted to point out that in our district you do not have to purchase k12 independently in order to use it for one (or more) subjects for free through the public school (I removed contact info for privacy, this was under a part-time option):

 

This option is designed for students who want to take classes online in addition to homeschooling for multiple classes. Daily, hands-on supervision by a parent learning coach is required Courses are year-long and follow the school district schedule. To access this option, please contact ....

 

My point in posting the above is to hopefully illustrate that one can utilize free, public school classes to supplement their homeschool and not be enrolled full time in public school, and therefore still be considered homeschoolers, even legally.

[briansmama]

I may be coming in late on a conversation I know nothing about, but that is NOT how it is here (in my state). Public virtual school users (in our state) are not legally considered homeschoolers - they are legally public school students, they are all required (by the 3 virtual options here) to log on a certain amount of time daily, and attend online classes at specific times, and NONE allow you to choose your own materials. There are no charter schools here that give you money and allow you to choose materials.

Yes, I know CA is progressive that way. We moved out of state and found our new state to be not nearly as progressive in terms of alternatives/options for homeschoolers. I thought some of the charter programs to support homeschoolers were genius. One of my friends is a nurse practitioner and she was able to work 2 full days per week and homeschool the other 3 because her ds could attend a brick and mortar classical program for art/history those 2 days she worked. The other days she handled everything else regarding his Ed. She was a big part of our homeschool group and I would have been sad if she felt she wasn't homeschooling because he attended a part-time school program.

[briansmama]

This type of self-contradictory statement is what confuses people. "Anything"....followed by.."provided it was"...is self-contradictory and not logical.

 

It's not self-contradictory if it's clearly stated like this:

 

The public/ charter offers $900 per child, per semester of the taxpayer's money for secular educational materials.

 

I've personally met 2 different families using public/charter school online here in AZ (about 9 years ago) that were told by the school official overseeing the online program that they couldn't tell their kids Thanksgiving was holiday in which the pilgrims gave thanks to God even if it was with materials purchased privately and used on their own time. The official had asked the kids what they had been studying since the last contact and the kids offered that as part of their explanation. There was no way to enforce that, but it was stated none the less.

 

"You could use religious materials but the school couldn't pay for them." Maybe technically, but that doesn't mean some officials might try to tell you otherwise. Both families had the good sense to bow out and homeschool independently.

 

No amount of money is worth losing freedom (or being forced to abandon first source materials. )

Well, I don't think I worded anything incorrectly, my goodness. Your rephrase would have not been accurate, as the funds could be used on educational classes, tutoring, and lessons, not just materials (that's where the "anything educational" fits in, as it's not limited to only materials).

 

As for the story of your friends, that sounds awful! I too would have bowed out of that program as quickly as possible. However, families in our homeschool support group enrolled in the charter program were vastly different. Some were homeschooling for primarily religious reasons, and others weren't. I never felt our spiritual beliefs were undermined by enrolling in the charter program. I agree that would be a deal breaker for sure.

[Ellie]

In my state, you can borrow materials from the public school to use as a traditional homeschooler.  So using your definition, how would you classify a family who does this (because their materials are free)?

 

If the parents are complying with the state's homeschool law, then they are homeschooling.  

[angela in ohio]

In our current state, and our previous one, it really is a legal definition. You can operate under homeschooling laws or you can enroll in a virtual public charter. They are two different things.

 

I don't care much if people use the virtual public charters (well, maybe a bit because of funding issues,) but I do care when they tell people that "the government gives them a computer to homeschool" because then I have to explain why I am not willing to use the "free state homeschooling" to members of the general public who are now confused (and sometimes angry at homeschoolers for "taking money from the schools.") I think that is when you will find homeschoolers wanting to make the lines clear.

[school17777]

In our current state, and our previous one, it really is a legal definition. You can operate under homeschooling laws or you can enroll in a virtual public charter. They are two different things.

 

 

This is true.  What seems to be causing confusion for some (including some that have posted in this thread) is that the curriculum used in virtual public charter schools is also available for private purchase.  Just because someone is using a particular curriculum that is also used in a virtual school, does not mean they their students are public school students.

[Pen]

In our current state, and our previous one, it really is a legal definition. You can operate under homeschooling laws or you can enroll in a virtual public charter. They are two different things.

 

I don't care much if people use the virtual public charters (well, maybe a bit because of funding issues,) but I do care when they tell people that "the government gives them a computer to homeschool" because then I have to explain why I am not willing to use the "free state homeschooling" to members of the general public who are now confused (and sometimes angry at homeschoolers for "taking money from the schools.") I think that is when you will find homeschoolers wanting to make the lines clear.

 

Ironically, 2 friends who have in the past been "homeschoolers" in the full legal sense for our state, as well as in the senses of doing it physically at home and all parent led, are now joining one or another Charter school option.   So, naturally, my ds asked if he could do that too.

 

On the funding side, I was thinking about it and that the charters where the children do most or all of what they do from home seem to have very low costs compared to a full brick and mortar school, and while the amount toward materials that might go to a parent seems significant for some of us as compared to our budgets, I wonder what it is compared to what the charter is getting per each enrolled child.

 

The advertising for these charters has been heavy in our area, I wonder if someone is making a lot of money from them, on the one hand, or if the government is trying to push people that way to save money on the other hand.

 

In any case, it seems clear to me that the money actually going to a child's education from one of these charter school mostly at home options is a lot less than what is spent via the brick and mortar school in our area--that appears obvious just by looking at the infrastructure and number of teachers, janitors, athletic facilities etc involved.

[briansmama]

Pen. You are right that funding varies widely. We had over 5 different charters that served families learning at home to choose from and some offered very little educational funds for each student enrolled but provided on-site learning centers where optional classes were held (writing classes, woodworking, math clubs, etc) and resource libraries (science kits, books, textbooks, microscopes, etc).

 

We chose the charter with no learning center or resource library but that provided the most educational funds to be spent on educational options of my choosing for my dc.

 

As for how much funding a charter school receives, a percentage goes to the actual school district that agrees to the charter, depending on which state you're in. Some states, like MN (where the charter school movement was pioneered), have the university system grant the charter, while in other states (CA and others) the charter has to be approved by the school district, where funds are given to the district. As for the overall funding of each student enrolled, I've read it's less than the per student funds given to the public schools (non-chartered) in the same district. I can't remember quite how much less though. I'd be very curious to know.

 

I read a book on the charter school movement about 5 years ago, before we signed on with one while still in CA.

[angela in ohio]

In any case, it seems clear to me that the money actually going to a child's education from one of these charter school mostly at home options is a lot less than what is spent via the brick and mortar school in our area--that appears obvious just by looking at the infrastructure and number of teachers, janitors, athletic facilities etc involved.

 

Bingo. :D

[tarahillmom]

As a parent with two doing k12 through the state and one traditional homeschooling student, here are differences.  K12- kids have teachers and at my kids' school they meet with teachers via on-line classroom M-Thurs. for classes. The lesson plans are there for me. However we do it at our pace and work with the teacher with an individualized learning plan.  It is a built-in support system and lesson planner. Traditional you are responsible for lesson planning, teaching, and the whole nine yards.  I still spend a large quantity of teaching the two that do K12.  I have homeschooled for 6 years traditionally, and I can say it is just as much work on a daily basis no matter what for parent and/or child.  It is a political and legal technicality.  I think that both communities need to understand each other and learn to respect each family's decision.  Both groups are marginalized as a whole, parents are struggling with the same issues, and all are doing it for the betterment of our children.

[school17777]

As a parent with two doing k12 through the state and one traditional homeschooling student, here are differences.  K12- kids have teachers and at my kids' school they meet with teachers via on-line classroom M-Thurs. for classes. The lesson plans are there for me. However we do it at our pace and work with the teacher with an individualized learning plan.  It is a built-in support system and lesson planner. Traditional you are responsible for lesson planning, teaching, and the whole nine yards.  I still spend a large quantity of teaching the two that do K12.  I have homeschooled for 6 years traditionally, and I can say it is just as much work on a daily basis no matter what for parent and/or child.  It is a political and legal technicality.  I think that both communities need to understand each other and learn to respect each family's decision.  Both groups are marginalized as a whole, parents are struggling with the same issues, and all are doing it for the betterment of our children.

 

 

If you purchase K12 as an individual, you don't have teachers.  It's no difference than ordering a curriculum that supplies a lesson plan such as Sonlight.  

 

So it sounds like you have two children enrolled in a virtual school that uses K12 and the school provides teachers for those students..  You could also provide K12 to your traditional homeschooled student and would not be supplied with a teacher.

[school17777]

 

 

 

dp

[Guest ArtMom]

I only see it as a legal distinction. Some people I have told I am homeschooling thought I meant using an online PS, that is the only time it bothers me because they don't know what traditional homeschooling is and when I've explained it people seem kind of shocked by it.

 

I do have to say people who use online public schools are homeschooling parents in my mind though. I don't see it any different than outsourcing classes, it is the same socially also as well as requiring teaching/involvement by the parent more so than brick and mortar schools (especially in the younger years I've heard).

[kitten18]

If you purchase K12 as an individual, you don't have teachers.  It's no difference than ordering a curriculum that supplies a lesson plan such as Sonlight.  

 

So it sounds like you have two children enrolled in a virtual school that uses K12 and the school provides teachers for those students..  You could also provide K12 to your traditional homeschooled student and would not be supplied with a teacher.

 

Yeah...that's exactly what she said.

 

[school17777]

Yeah...that's exactly what she said.

 

 

 

Not exactly,  K12 is NOT a school,  K12 DOES NOT provide teachers.  The SCHOOL does, not the curriculum.

 

My point is that a student using K12 can be a traditional homeschooler with no teacher support.

 

 

And I only point this out because people assume that if a student is using K12 curriculum that they are enrolled in a public virtual school.  That's not necessarily the case.  

[Ellie]

I only see it as a legal distinction. Some people I have told I am homeschooling thought I meant using an online PS, that is the only time it bothers me because they don't know what traditional homeschooling is and when I've explained it people seem kind of shocked by it.

 

I do have to say people who use online public schools are homeschooling parents in my mind though. I don't see it any different than outsourcing classes, it is the same socially also as well as requiring teaching/involvement by the parent more so than brick and mortar schools (especially in the younger years I've heard).

 

If the parents who "outsource" classes still have to comply with the homeschool laws in their state (if any), then they are still legally homeschooling.

 

If their states have nothing at all (such as Texas or Oklahoma), they are still homeschooling.

 

If their children are enrolled in a public school program, then the children are public school students. The state (district, individual school, whatever) gets ADA funds (might be called something different in different states) for those children's "attendance," even if their "attendance" is via the Internet. There are no ADA funds for children who are homeschooled (or private schooled).

 

So yes, there is a difference between parents who "outsource" classes for their children and parents who enroll their children in public school programs.